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Posted: 8/26/2005 3:37:26 PM EDT
Educate me on why insurgents and most third world fighters so horrible at shooting. It seems that every soldier or marine I talk to says Iraqi insurgents cant shoot for shit. I also recently read an article about Iraq where every soldier interviewed said Iraqis are horrible marksman. I have read many reports about Somalia where rangers reported that the tribal fighters could not shoot very well and often tried shooting Aks with the stock folded. Dont they have ranges in those countries. If I was living in a warzone or a third world nation I would want to be damn sure I could use a weapon to its full potential. I knew some afghanis who were excellent marksman with an AK. Why isnt every third world fighter proficient with weapons.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 3:39:22 PM EDT
Dude, you duped youself. That has to be some kind of record
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 3:39:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2005 4:05:05 PM EDT by bloodmoon]
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 3:40:10 PM EDT
Because they dont have real training. Most of them are not soldiers but just unemployed dudes and usually not the smart ones.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 3:41:18 PM EDT
Have you ever tried to kill someone?

Have you ever been in combat?

Many criminal activities are not well planned; this includes the big stuff.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 3:41:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DOW:
Dude, you duped youself. That has to be some kind of record

Thank you thank you I now proudly except the award for stupid poster of the day. I have so many people to thank for this dishonor.......................... were to begin
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 3:42:10 PM EDT
They are terrible because they worship the wrong god.

Seriously, though, most of them don't have prior training. They are just given a weapon and told to go kill you some infidels.

As most of those weapons are Full-Auto, they also just spray bullets at the enemy, hoping to hit something.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 3:46:29 PM EDT
I have often wondered if there is a wood shortage there and they can only make handgaurds and not butt stocks in the middle east
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 3:47:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ben70:
Have you ever tried to kill someone?

Have you ever been in combat?

Many criminal activities are not well planned; this includes the big stuff.

I have been to Afghanistan but most of the afganies both good and bad are good marksmen.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 3:50:04 PM EDT
In Islamic countries it is very literally "spray and pray". They hit their target only if Allah wills it, so they just point their AK at the good guys and pray that Allah wants them dead.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 3:50:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bloodmoon:

Originally Posted By Ben70:
Have you ever tried to kill someone?

Have you ever been in combat?

Many criminal activities are not well planned; this includes the big stuff.

I have been to Afghanistan but most of the afganies both good and bad are good marksmen.



Did you ever stop to think that maybe the Soviets killed off all the bad ones.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 3:51:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bloodmoon:

Originally Posted By Ben70:
Have you ever tried to kill someone?

Have you ever been in combat?

Many criminal activities are not well planned; this includes the big stuff.

I have been to Afghanistan but most of the afganies both good and bad are good marksmen.



What I hear a lot about is this cultural thing with most Islamic soldiers. They don't believe in aiming. They seriously believe that they just fire a shot in the general direction of the enemy, and if Allah wills it, the bullet will hit. I'll bet that's the main reason.

As for Afghanistan, I'm guessing it's because of the long-term war in their country? The bad shots got killed, and the good shots lived on.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 3:52:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By bloodmoon:

Originally Posted By Ben70:
Have you ever tried to kill someone?

Have you ever been in combat?

Many criminal activities are not well planned; this includes the big stuff.

I have been to Afghanistan but most of the afganies both good and bad are good marksmen.



Did you ever stop to think that maybe the Soviets killed off all the bad ones.

Damn you are right survival of the fittest is a bitch in Afghanistan
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 3:53:14 PM EDT
They aren't bad shots, they just use shitty rifles.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 3:58:49 PM EDT
Now this is an interesting question...

I believe the following is the cause (1.) Lack of Training in shooting fundamentals, (2.) Bad Gun Handling in Movies and TV (spray from the hip ala Rambo), (3.) Lack of understanding of Sights,
(4.) Lack of a decent Rifle.

The AK (being the weapon of choice among most of the 3rd World) while being very reliable and durable, it really sucks in the accuracy department. The Lee Enfield used early in the Soviet Afghanistan War would shoot rings around the AK in terms of accuracy and effective range.

Link Posted: 8/26/2005 3:59:43 PM EDT
the weather here is balmy today...

Taffy


3rd world should give you a clue....the answer is always in the question
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 4:00:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Oslow:
They aren't bad shots, they just use shitty rifles.



Link Posted: 8/26/2005 4:03:45 PM EDT
you dont want to shoot rings around it...you want to shoot rings inside it :)
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 4:07:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BiggerStick47:

Originally Posted By Oslow:
They aren't bad shots, they just use shitty rifles.







I don't think that's necessarily a slam on AKs, but rather a slam on the shitty condition that THEIR AKs are in.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 4:15:23 PM EDT
Mindset mostly. The RoP has had a hard time understanding that to do something proficently, you have to train at it. They think Allah will make it so if he wants it, but we all know the truth: God helps those who helps themselves.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 4:20:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mace:

Originally Posted By bloodmoon:

Originally Posted By Ben70:
Have you ever tried to kill someone?

Have you ever been in combat?

Many criminal activities are not well planned; this includes the big stuff.

I have been to Afghanistan but most of the afganies both good and bad are good marksmen.



What I hear a lot about is this cultural thing with most Islamic soldiers. They don't believe in aiming. They seriously believe that they just fire a shot in the general direction of the enemy, and if Allah wills it, the bullet will hit. I'll bet that's the main reason.

As for Afghanistan, I'm guessing it's because of the long-term war in their country? The bad shots got killed, and the good shots lived on.



Sounds like a variation in WWII Japanese thinking. The actual weapon wasn't considered of that much importance, the man was. Many of the Japanese small arms were outdated and just plain shit and that only got worse as the war progressed.

In the case of Islamic soldiers they not only are using inferior weapons and tactics, they don't have the "warrior mindset" that kept the Japanese a formidable opponent to the bitter end.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 4:26:15 PM EDT
I'm not convinced they are poor shots.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 4:26:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2005 4:28:00 PM EDT by fadedsun]

Originally Posted By napalm:

Originally Posted By BiggerStick47:

Originally Posted By Oslow:
They aren't bad shots, they just use shitty rifles.







I don't think that's necessarily a slam on AKs, but rather a slam on the shitty condition that THEIR AKs are in.



I tihnk it's more of a slam on the fact that their rifles are probably older than most people on this board and are WORN OUT!

Link Posted: 8/26/2005 4:37:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Taffy223:
the weather here is balmy today...

Fred has a long moustache

Fred has a long moustache

­

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 5:09:17 PM EDT
My sincere apologies.

Not having been there yet, I'd have to guess it's due to the population they are drawing from - young, unemployed (unemployable) or menial jobs, lack of interest in complese preparation.

I would also like to add that while range training is necessary, it does not directly translate to assaulting a target.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 5:10:55 PM EDT
"What you mean you are supposed to line up those little protruding things on top of the gun with what you intend to kill? How inovative!!!! Allah be praised!!!"

"Naw , If it is Allah's will the bullets will hit!!!!"

This is why the insurgents suck!!! They expect it to be Allah's will the bullets will hit the infidel!!!
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 5:10:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97:
Now this is an interesting question...

I believe the following is the cause (1.) Lack of Training in shooting fundamentals, (2.) Bad Gun Handling in Movies and TV (spray from the hip ala Rambo), (3.) Lack of understanding of Sights,
(4.) Lack of a decent Rifle.



They must get all their "tactical" training from playing "Medal Of Honor" & other first person shooter computer games online......all bunnyhopping-full auto spray & pray in the middle of the street, ignoring cover, RPG spamming, etc.


It seems that to actually shoulder the rifle & use the sights is "unmanly" in certain cultures
If their AK doesn't have a folding stock they just remove the fixed stock.
The AK sights aren't the best & the loose clearances mean it's no tack driver but it's good enuff for "social" work if you actually bother to use it as a rifle instead of a large full auto pistol (overhead gansta style or hip shooting). The 3rd world nitwits would still be lousy shots if they used National Match quality AR15s.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 5:13:28 PM EDT
They are uneducated fools that treat the gun like a "boomstick" they probably picked it up once and shot it and the person standing in front of them died. So from there on out they just point it in the general direction and starting spraying away.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 5:43:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2005 5:44:37 PM EDT by Kharn]
'Allah's will' extends from having enough gas in the bus, to getting stuff done before quitting time, to hitting the target.

If somebody says Isha Allah (Arabic for Allah willing) about something, plan on it not happening and you having to do it yourself.

Kharn
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 12:02:44 AM EDT
Maybe it has something to do with them having to dodge the aimed fire our guys are sending their way?
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 12:27:43 AM EDT
My guess would be that they think that because they have a full-auto gun with a large magazine, that if they jiggle the gun around and spray in the general direction, that something is bound to hit the target.

Partly popular culture, partly the weapon's fault.


Now, back during the war for independence, our untrained, poor outdoorsmen were superb marksmen. They had to be. Their single-shot muzzle loading rifles ,while extremely accurate for their day, took even longer to reload than the standard smooth-bore military muskets used by the British.

Shot placement was one of our oldest military doctrines.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 12:35:11 AM EDT
I figure it's probably a combination of them having a near-complete lack of training along with a matching lack of willlingness to actually "fight". Any spineless idiot can hold his weapon at arm's length around a corner and empty a magazine, hoping to hit something, and then run like hell. It takes guts and training to stand your ground and present aimed fire while other people are shooting at you (or, as in the case of terrorists, shooting in your general direction).
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 12:44:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By napalm:

Originally Posted By BiggerStick47:

Originally Posted By Oslow:
They aren't bad shots, they just use shitty rifles.







I don't think that's necessarily a slam on AKs, but rather a slam on the shitty condition that THEIR AKs are in.



The sights on them suck at least. We had to issue the Iraqi Police in Balad their AKs, so we got to test fire them before we gave them to the IPs. The sights on them really sucked, I can see why they use full-auto, it's the only way you could hit something from any distance.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 1:52:08 AM EDT
I don't know why they are bad shots but I am glad for it.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 2:30:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SkyCatII:
In Islamic countries it is very literally "spray and pray". They hit their target only if Allah wills it, so they just point their AK at the good guys and pray that Allah wants them dead.



<< comment removed by CoC PreCrime Unit >>

wganz

Link Posted: 8/27/2005 2:49:35 AM EDT
crappy weapons

no training

full auto
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 3:37:03 AM EDT
Some aren't.... you might want to read the second article in this thread:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=383359
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 3:52:27 AM EDT
The AK isn't a tack driver, but if you aim, I guarentee you that somehwere between round 1 and 30 you will kill something. The problem is the "no aim" mentality of these guys, the really don't use the sights. Their "juba" is just doing what normal Marines do every day, now, if they beat that crazy canuck then I'll have some respect.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 4:58:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By guardian855:
The sights on them suck at least. We had to issue the Iraqi Police in Balad their AKs, so we got to test fire them before we gave them to the IPs. The sights on them really sucked, I can see why they use full-auto, it's the only way you could hit something from any distance.



I must be doing something wrong with mine - Don't seem to have any problem hitting distant targets consistently...
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 5:05:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/27/2005 5:05:47 AM EDT by RiffRandall]

Originally Posted By Zardoz:
I figure it's probably a combination of them having a near-complete lack of training along with a matching lack of willlingness to actually "fight". Any spineless idiot can hold his weapon at arm's length around a corner and empty a magazine, hoping to hit something, and then run like hell. It takes guts and training to stand your ground and present aimed fire while other people are shooting at you (or, as in the case of terrorists, shooting in your general direction).




Sort of like "counting coup". Certain cultures view warfare as mostly a means to show off how manly a warrior you are to the rest of your tribe. They aren't as concerned with "winning" a war as they are playing at it.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 5:30:16 AM EDT
It’s called discipline............. they usually have none...
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 5:38:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ben70:
Have you ever tried to kill someone?

Have you ever been in combat?

Many criminal activities are not well planned; this includes the big stuff.





Robbed a coupla banks a while ago. The first time I was so scared, I said: "OK, Mothersticker, this is a fuck up. Put your ass in the air or I'll blow your hands off!"
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 9:17:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Skibane:

Originally Posted By guardian855:
The sights on them suck at least. We had to issue the Iraqi Police in Balad their AKs, so we got to test fire them before we gave them to the IPs. The sights on them really sucked, I can see why they use full-auto, it's the only way you could hit something from any distance.



I must be doing something wrong with mine - Don't seem to have any problem hitting distant targets consistently...



do you use your sights? do you have a stock on your weapon? is your barrel straight? do you have an education that advanced past the sixth grade level where you understand what your sights do?

these guys don't. thank god.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 9:26:24 AM EDT
here there are a few reason the main problem for them being training. Its hard to train on marksmanship when everytime you shoot, all of a sudden hummers and apaches git all over your ass. next is the crap ammo that they get- its a crap shoot for them, they spray on full auto till they get a misfire... that way they can get max rounds out before we respond.
the relatively new problem is well trained ayrabs coming in from other places- those guys take care of their weapons, inspect the ammo before loading, and have real training. dat be bad news.

but also cause they are insurgents/terrorists/dickheads- its not like I want them to have better trigger discipline.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 10:03:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
Because they dont have real training. Most of them are not soldiers but just unemployed dudes and usually not the smart ones.



I agree. I bet some these guys see the opportunity to get a shot at Westerners and jump on a bus and into the fight.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 10:19:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ranger_SXT:
They are terrible because they worship the wrong god.




[mrpicky]Technically its the same God for all three major religions. Its the God od Abraham[/mrpicky]
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 10:47:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/27/2005 10:49:14 AM EDT by GTLandser]
What I "know", from books and the news:

There is not a professional military culture in the ME. Professional militaries are threats to the power of despots. This lack of seriousness carries on down to the level of the individual, where training is kept to a minimum, again so as not the threaten the reigning despot. Evidence Saddam's private security apparatus: if they were effective at all, they were first loyal to Saddam. But the point was that Saddam had a monopoly on violence.

In Somalia, loyalty to clan is paramount--to not shoot at the Americans, even if you had no beef, was unmanly. One could at least claim to have fought us by picking up a weapon and shooting at us. Their honor preserved, they dropped the weapon (if we didn't kill them) and they went home. The militias on the other hand, got their khat and money from the warlord, so they fought. Sort of a hybrid gang/clan dynamic.

Iraqi AK's do suck. Partly to improve the Iraqis', and partly to maintain the coalition, we have bought many AK's from eastern Europe. The same with tanks and fighting vehicles. The EE one's are much better than the Iraqi, but it will take time to create a professional military culture. Meanwhile, these EE countries make some cash, so staying in Iraq is not such a better pill.

I never heard, and do not for a second believe, they think that "Allah wills the bullet to the target".


Citation/Disclaimer
My sources: Black Hawk Down (book), Strategypage.com, MSM reports via Yahoo, and milblogs such as Michael Yon, Black Five, and SFAlpha Geek.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 10:55:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GTLandser:
What I "know", from books and the news:

There is not a professional military culture in the ME. Professional militaries are threats to the power of despots. This lack of seriousness carries on down to the level of the individual, where training is kept to a minimum, again so as not the threaten the reigning despot. Evidence Saddam's private security apparatus: if they were effective at all, they were first loyal to Saddam. But the point was that Saddam had a monopoly on violence.

In Somalia, loyalty to clan is paramount--to not shoot at the Americans, even if you had no beef, was unmanly. One could at least claim to have fought us by picking up a weapon and shooting at us. Their honor preserved, they dropped the weapon (if we didn't kill them) and they went home. The militias on the other hand, got their khat and money from the warlord, so they fought. Sort of a hybrid gang/clan dynamic.

Iraqi AK's do suck. Partly to improve the Iraqis', and partly to maintain the coalition, we have bought many AK's from eastern Europe. The same with tanks and fighting vehicles. The EE one's are much better than the Iraqi, but it will take time to create a professional military culture. Meanwhile, these EE countries make some cash, so staying in Iraq is not such a better pill.

I never heard, and do not for a second believe, they think that "Allah wills the bullet to the target".


Citation/Disclaimer
My sources: Black Hawk Down (book), Strategypage.com, MSM reports via Yahoo, and milblogs such as Michael Yon, Black Five, and SFAlpha Geek.



woooooooooooohoooooooooooooooo­o
right on the money my man!!!!

finally, someone stops to actually write a serious and wellthought and well supported reply.
As opposed to the "them raghaids are teh sux0or!!111!!!!!111"
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 12:26:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GTLandser:


I never heard, and do not for a second believe, they think that "Allah wills the bullet to the target".




It's true for the more religous ones. Really. And like somebody said it goes WAYYYY beyond guns. If your car runs out of gas it's not your fault, it's Allah's will.

I know some folks around here have done training with Arab military. One free fall guy said he couldn't get some Saudi's to pay attention to the emergency procedures. They said that if their primary chute failed, it was Allah's will.

Most of it is, when you get down to it, cultural.

This seems to be mostly an "Arab Muslim" thing. I've never heard it from Cechnya and the like. Then again, most of the stupid "Allah's will makes my bullets hit and the AK can defeat tanks" guys are dead. You get left with the "It's Allah's will that I aim this thing, and heavy weapons are fun."
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 12:47:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By GTLandser:
What I "know", from books and the news:

There is not a professional military culture in the ME. Professional militaries are threats to the power of despots. This lack of seriousness carries on down to the level of the individual, where training is kept to a minimum, again so as not the threaten the reigning despot. Evidence Saddam's private security apparatus: if they were effective at all, they were first loyal to Saddam. But the point was that Saddam had a monopoly on violence.

In Somalia, loyalty to clan is paramount--to not shoot at the Americans, even if you had no beef, was unmanly. One could at least claim to have fought us by picking up a weapon and shooting at us. Their honor preserved, they dropped the weapon (if we didn't kill them) and they went home. The militias on the other hand, got their khat and money from the warlord, so they fought. Sort of a hybrid gang/clan dynamic.

Iraqi AK's do suck. Partly to improve the Iraqis', and partly to maintain the coalition, we have bought many AK's from eastern Europe. The same with tanks and fighting vehicles. The EE one's are much better than the Iraqi, but it will take time to create a professional military culture. Meanwhile, these EE countries make some cash, so staying in Iraq is not such a better pill.

I never heard, and do not for a second believe, they think that "Allah wills the bullet to the target".


Citation/Disclaimer
My sources: Black Hawk Down (book), Strategypage.com, MSM reports via Yahoo, and milblogs such as Michael Yon, Black Five, and SFAlpha Geek.



woooooooooooohoooooooooooooooo­o
right on the money my man!!!!

finally, someone stops to actually write a serious and wellthought and well supported reply.
As opposed to the "them raghaids are teh sux0or!!111!!!!!111"



You can buy armored vehicles in the EE? SHWEET!

Link Posted: 8/27/2005 12:53:51 PM EDT
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