A 9/11 'memorial' that has more about Abu Ghraib than New York's heroic firemen

online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB111810145819652326,00.html?mod=opinion%5Fmain%5Fcommentaries

i heard about it on the radio.. but dont have a pass to read it.. if any of you do, copy paste it

.

no one?

You do realize that link takes you to an article that is available ONLY to WSJ subscribers.

Cut and paste the text so we can comment.

Quoted: You do realize that link takes you to an article that is available ONLY to WSJ subscribers. Cut and paste the text so we can comment.

try reading my post next time

but dont have a pass to read it.. if any of you do, copy paste it

Maybe buy a subscription to WSJ?  You want to send me some ammo so I can shoot it?

Quoted: You do realize that link takes you to an article that is available ONLY to WSJ subscribers. Cut and paste the text so we can comment.

I hate it when people reply without reading.

The Wall Street Journal charges because they have a high quality product.  Cutting and pasting from most "news" sites isn't a big deal because they give it away anyway.  Besides, it's usually crap "journalism".

I'm not a soap-box preacher but I'll remind you that if people just steal WSJ material they will eventually stop posting on the web at all.  That or we will lose a very good source of accurate journalism altogether.

Here it is:

COMMENTARY   The Great Ground Zero Heist By DEBRA BURLINGAME June 7, 2005; Page A14 On Memorial Day weekend, three Marines from the 24th Expeditionary Unit who had been wounded in Iraq were joined by 300 other service members for a wreath-laying ceremony at the empty pit of Ground Zero. The broken pieces of the Twin Towers have long ago been cleared away. There are no faded flags or hand-painted signs of national unity, no simple tokens of remembrance. So why do they come? What do they hope to see? The World Trade Center Memorial will break ground this year. When those Marines return in 2010, the year it is scheduled to open, no doubt they will expect to see the artifacts that bring those memories to life. They'll want a vantage point that allows them to take in the sheer scope of the destruction, to see the footage and the photographs and hear the personal stories of unbearable heartbreak and unimaginable courage. They will want the memorial to take them back to who they were on that brutal September morning. Instead, they will get a memorial that stubbornly refuses to acknowledge the yearning to return to that day. Rather than a respectful tribute to our individual and collective loss, they will get a slanted history lesson, a didactic lecture on the meaning of liberty in a post-9/11 world. They will be served up a heaping foreign policy discussion over the greater meaning of Abu Ghraib and what it portends for the country and the rest of the world. * * * The World Trade Center Memorial Cultural Complex will be an imposing edifice wedged in the place where the Twin Towers once stood. It will serve as the primary "gateway" to the underground area where the names of the lost are chiseled into concrete. The organizers of its principal tenant, the International Freedom Center (IFC), have stated that they intend to take us on "a journey through the history of freedom" -- but do not be fooled into thinking that their idea of freedom is the same as that of those Marines. To the IFC's organizers, it is not only history's triumphs that illuminate, but also its failures. The public will have come to see 9/11 but will be given a high-tech, multimedia tutorial about man's inhumanity to man, from Native American genocide to the lynchings and cross-burnings of the Jim Crow South, from the Third Reich's Final Solution to the Soviet gulags and beyond. This is a history all should know and learn, but dispensing it over the ashes of Ground Zero is like creating a Museum of Tolerance over the sunken graves of the USS Arizona. The public will be confused at first, and then feel hoodwinked and betrayed. Where, they will ask, do we go to see the September 11 Memorial? The World Trade Center Memorial Foundation will have erected a building whose only connection to September 11 is a strained, intellectual one. While the IFC is getting 300,000 square feet of space to teach us how to think about liberty, the actual Memorial Center on the opposite corner of the site will get a meager 50,000 square feet to exhibit its 9/11 artifacts, all out of sight and underground. Most of the cherished objects which were salvaged from Ground Zero in those first traumatic months will never return to the site. There is simply no room. But the International Freedom Center will have ample space to present us with exhibits about Chinese dissidents and Chilean refugees. These are important subjects, but for somewhere -- anywhere -- else, not the site of the worst attack on American soil in the history of the republic. More disturbing, the Lower Manhattan Development Corp. is handing over millions of federal dollars and the keys to that building to some of the very same people who consider the post-9/11 provisions of the Patriot Act more dangerous than the terrorists that they were enacted to apprehend -- people whose inflammatory claims of a deliberate torture policy at Guantanamo Bay are undermining this country's efforts to foster freedom elsewhere in the world. * * * The driving force behind the IFC is Tom Bernstein, the dynamic co-founder of the Chelsea Piers Sports and Entertainment Complex who made a fortune financing Hollywood movies. But his capital ventures appear to have funded his true calling, the pro bono work he has done his entire adult life -- as an activist lawyer in the human rights movement. He has been a proud member of Human Rights First since it was founded -- as the Lawyers Committee for Human Rights -- 27 years ago, and has served as its president for the last 12. The public has a right to know that it was Mr. Bernstein's organization, joined by the American Civil Liberties Union, that filed a lawsuit three months ago against Donald Rumsfeld on behalf of detainees in Iraq and Afghanistan. It was Human Rights First that filed an amicus brief on behalf of alleged "dirty bomber" Jose Padilla, an American citizen who the Justice Department believes is an al Qaeda recruit. It was Human Rights First that has called for a 9/11-style commission to investigate the alleged torture of detainees, complete with budget authority, subpoena power and the ability to demand that witnesses testify under oath. In fact, the IFC's list of those who are shaping or influencing the content and programming for their Ground Zero exhibit includes a Who's Who of the human rights, Guantanamo-obsessed world: • Michael Posner, executive director at Human Rights First who is leading the world-wide "Stop Torture Now" campaign focused entirely on the U.S. military. He has stated that Mr. Rumsfeld's refusal to resign in the wake of the Abu Ghraib scandal is "irresponsible and dishonorable." • Anthony Romero, executive director of the ACLU, who is pushing IFC organizers for exhibits that showcase how civil liberties in this country have been curtailed since September 11. • Eric Foner, radical-left history professor at Columbia University who, even as the bodies were being pulled out of a smoldering Ground Zero, wrote, "I'm not sure which is more frightening: the horror that engulfed New York City or the apocalyptic rhetoric emanating daily from the White House." This is the same man who participated in a "teach-in" at Columbia to protest the Iraq war, during which a colleague exhorted students with, "The only true heroes are those who find ways to defeat the U.S. military," and called for "a million Mogadishus." The IFC website has posted Mr. Foner's statement warning that future discussions should not be "overwhelmed" by the IFC's location at the World Trade Center site itself. • George Soros, billionaire founder of Open Society Institute, the nonprofit foundation that helps fund Human Rights First and is an early contributor to the IFC. Mr. Soros has stated that the pictures of Abu Ghraib "hit us the same way as the terrorist attack itself." While Gov. George Pataki, Mayor Michael Bloomberg and LMDC are focusing their attention on the economic revival of lower Manhattan, there has been no meaningful oversight with respect to the "cash cow of Ground Zero." Meanwhile, the Freedom Center's organizers are quickly lining up individuals, institutions and university provosts with this arrogant appeal: "The memorial to the victims will be the heart of the site, the IFC will be the brain." Indeed, they have declared the World Trade Center Memorial the perfect "magnet" for the world's "great leaders, thinkers and activists" to participate in lectures and symposiums that examine the "foundations of free and open societies." Put less grandly, these activists and academics are salivating at the prospect of holding forth on the "perfect platform" where the domestic and foreign policy they despise was born. Less welcome to the Freedom Center are the actual beneficiaries of that policy. According to the New York Times, early renderings of the center's exhibit area created by its Norwegian architectural firm depicted a large mural of an Iraqi voter. That image was replaced by a photograph of Martin Luther King and Lyndon Johnson when the designs were made public. What does it mean that the "story of humankind's quest for freedom" doesn't include the kind that is fought for with the blood and tears of patriots? It means, I fear, that this is a freedom center which will not use the word "patriot" the way our Founding Fathers did. * * * The so-called lessons of September 11 should not be force-fed by ideologues hoping to use the memorial site as nothing more than a powerful visual aid to promote their agenda. Instead of exhibits and symposiums about Internationalism and Global Policy we should hear the story of the courageous young firefighter whose body, cut in half, was found with his legs entwined around the body of a woman. Recovery personnel concluded that because of their positions, the young firefighter was carrying her. The people who visit Ground Zero in five years will come because they want to pay their respects at the place where heroes died. They will come because they want to remember what they saw that day, because they want a personal connection, to touch the place that touched them, the place that rallied the nation and changed their lives forever. I would wager that, if given a choice, they would rather walk through that dusty hanger at JFK Airport where 1,000 World Trade Center artifacts are stored than be herded through the International Freedom Center's multi-million dollar insult. Ground Zero has been stolen, right from under our noses. How do we get it back? Ms. Burlingame is a member of the board of directors of the World Trade Center Memorial Foundation and the sister of Charles F. "Chic" Burlingame III, pilot of American Airlines fight 77, which was crashed at the Pentagon on September 11, 2001.

What a bunch of fucking self-righteous assholes.

Have I ever told you how much I despise northeastern elitists?  

THANKS..

Quoted: I hate it when people reply without reading.

And I hate it when idiots post links and expect others to get the article for them..

man, if our tax dollars are going to this we can sure do something about it! maybe not you guys behind enemy lines but folks who live in virginia, texas, arizona and places like that should fwd this story on to their congresscritters and tell 'em you don't like this one bit...

Enemies of the State...pure and simple.

disgraceful

Quoted: Enemies of the State...pure and simple.

enemies of a state which is the following:

1) A State that has curtailed the civil liberties of all the citizens of the country; it blatantly disregards the 1st,2nd,4th and 5th amendmentswith all sorts of legislation.

2)  A State which is holding over 60000 individuals in Cuba, the ME, and elsewhere abroad without charges pressed for years; in effect, holding men,women, and children who are innocent according to US law(innocent till proven guilty). The US has past history of doing this to individuals, specifically Japanese/German/Italian-Americans during WWII.

3) A State which values multi-billion dollar international corporations over the poor, unless the poor are illegal aliens.

and much more. Apparently they are enemies of the state, but they are friends of humanity.

PS our soldiers are great though, the problem is the administration

EBRApologist: and the people who cut off heads of unarmed people to make a political statement are our friends?

Quoted: Quoted: Enemies of the State...pure and simple. enemies of a state which is the following: 1) A State that has curtailed the civil liberties of all the citizens of the country; it blatantly disregards the 1st,2nd,4th and 5th amendmentswith all sorts of legislation. 2)  A State which is holding over 60000 individuals in Cuba, the ME, and elsewhere abroad without charges pressed for years; in effect, holding men,women, and children who are innocent according to US law(innocent till proven guilty). The US has past history of doing this to individuals, specifically Japanese/German/Italian-Americans during WWII. 3) A State which values multi-billion dollar international corporations over the poor, unless the poor are illegal aliens. and much more. Apparently they are enemies of the state, but they are friends of humanity. PS our soldiers are great though, the problem is the administration

You should have stopped at Point #1.

The rest of it is just lefty blather - especially the class warfare bit about the poor.  Hey, fuck the poor.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Enemies of the State...pure and simple. enemies of a state which is the following: 1) A State that has curtailed the civil liberties of all the citizens of the country; it blatantly disregards the 1st,2nd,4th and 5th amendmentswith all sorts of legislation. 2)  A State which is holding over 60000 individuals in Cuba, the ME, and elsewhere abroad without charges pressed for years; in effect, holding men,women, and children who are innocent according to US law(innocent till proven guilty). The US has past history of doing this to individuals, specifically Japanese/German/Italian-Americans during WWII. 3) A State which values multi-billion dollar international corporations over the poor, unless the poor are illegal aliens. and much more. Apparently they are enemies of the state, but they are friends of humanity. PS our soldiers are great though, the problem is the administration You should have stopped at Point #1. The rest of it is just lefty blather - especially the class warfare bit about the poor.  Hey, fuck the poor.

+1, Someone has to be at the bottom.  Always.  No matter what.  No matter if we all drive Rolls-Royces, someone is going to be less rich.  

Hijack over.

Fucking mother fucking leftist motherfuckers.  They should have been in those towers and the doors locked.  Fucking ungrateful wastes of human flesh, breathing the same air I breathe.  If this place is so fucking bad, the fucking go to Europe with all the other America haters and fuck the fuck off.  They are sorry excuses for human beings, so afraid of the complexities and harshness that life can provide that they have to destroy and maim the memories and souls of others to make themselves feel better.  Motherfuckers.  There are not vile enough words in any language to describe behavior this despicable.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Enemies of the State...pure and simple. enemies of a state which is the following: 1) A State that has curtailed the civil liberties of all the citizens of the country; it blatantly disregards the 1st,2nd,4th and 5th amendmentswith all sorts of legislation. 2)  A State which is holding over 60000 individuals in Cuba, the ME, and elsewhere abroad without charges pressed for years; in effect, holding men,women, and children who are innocent according to US law(innocent till proven guilty). The US has past history of doing this to individuals, specifically Japanese/German/Italian-Americans during WWII. 3) A State which values multi-billion dollar international corporations over the poor, unless the poor are illegal aliens. and much more. Apparently they are enemies of the state, but they are friends of humanity. PS our soldiers are great though, the problem is the administration You should have stopped at Point #1. The rest of it is just lefty blather - especially the class warfare bit about the poor.  Hey, fuck the poor. +1, Someone has to be at the bottom.  Always.  No matter what.  No matter if we all drive Rolls-Royces, someone is going to be less rich.   Hijack over. Fucking mother fucking leftist motherfuckers.  They should have been in those towers and the doors locked.  Fucking ungrateful wastes of human flesh, breathing the same air I breathe.  If this place is so fucking bad, the fucking go to Europe with all the other America haters and fuck the fuck off.  They are sorry excuses for human beings, so afraid of the complexities and harshness that life can provide that they have to destroy and maim the memories and souls of others to make themselves feel better.  Motherfuckers.  There are not vile enough words in any language to describe behavior this despicable.

Don't keep in all the hate, tell us how you really feel

Man, that article speaks for itself.  What could I add?

Don't hold back.  A personal attack would be perfectly appropriate here.  

Quoted: Quoted: Enemies of the State...pure and simple. Bin Laden isn't too bad....his "soldiers" deserve a five star hotel.  How dare "innocent" people be thrown in jail, in the middle of the US, no one would dare throw a suspected murderer in jail. I think the treaties that apply to uniformed soldiers of nation-states should apply to terrorists. They're not that bad...I mean, 9/11 was a long time ago, I'm so over my patriotism now...I think it was an unfortunate fad.... I like it up the ass.

I summed up his point a little more clearly for those that don't want to wade through the bullshit.

Quoted: Man, that article speaks for itself.  What could I add?

Ugh. I'm going to be violently

I cannot believe these assholes are allowed to run free in this country. Pack them into boxcars and ship them off to Europe.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Enemies of the State...pure and simple. Bin Laden isn't too bad....his "soldiers" deserve a five star hotel.  How dare "innocent" people be thrown in jail, in the middle of the US, no one would dare throw a suspected murderer in jail. I think the treaties that apply to uniformed soldiers of nation-states should apply to terrorists. They're not that bad...I mean, 9/11 was a long time ago, I'm so over my patriotism now...I think it was an unfortunate fad.... I like it up the ass. I summed up his point a little more clearly for those that don't want to wade through the bullshit.

uhm... how about jose padilla, no evidence whatsoever against him; what about the British citizens in Gitmo, some of which were intelligence officers of Britain who got caught while in Afghanistan. We have treaties applying to non-Uniformed combatants, and we are violating those.

How would you feel if you were minding your own business, and a JBT busts in and arrests you cause you have more than one firearm in your house(happens in Iraq all the time, even to the Shia), and then doesn't press charges against you and keeps you in jail for multiple years without you having access to a lawyer or any legal defense... it is what we are doing right now to a lot of people.

but I guess they must be guilty, because they are brown, afterall, oh and let's not forget they are Muslims, those dirty little raghead scumbags

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Enemies of the State...pure and simple. Bin Laden isn't too bad....his "soldiers" deserve a five star hotel.  How dare "innocent" people be thrown in jail, in the middle of the US, no one would dare throw a suspected murderer in jail. I think the treaties that apply to uniformed soldiers of nation-states should apply to terrorists. They're not that bad...I mean, 9/11 was a long time ago, I'm so over my patriotism now...I think it was an unfortunate fad.... I like it up the ass. I summed up his point a little more clearly for those that don't want to wade through the bullshit. uhm... how about jose padilla, no evidence whatsoever against him; what about the British citizens in Gitmo, some of which were intelligence officers of Britain who got caught while in Afghanistan. We have treaties applying to non-Uniformed combatants, and we are violating those. How would you feel if you were minding your own business, and a JBT busts in and arrests you cause you have more than one firearm in your house(happens in Iraq all the time, even to the Shia), and then doesn't press charges against you and keeps you in jail for multiple years without you having access to a lawyer or any legal defense... it is what we are doing right now to a lot of people. but I guess they must be guilty, because they are brown, afterall, oh and let's not forget they are Muslims, those dirty little raghead scumbags

Hey, you're the one that can't tell the difference between an Israeli and a Palestinean in the other thread.  The key isn't to look at their skin, it's whether they're wearing a yamulkah or a tablecloth on their head.. that's how you can tell......

Un-Fucking-Beleivable!

Quoted: Quoted: Enemies of the State...pure and simple. enemies of a state which is the following: 1) A State that has curtailed the civil liberties of all the citizens of the country; it blatantly disregards the 1st,2nd,4th and 5th amendmentswith all sorts of legislation. 2)  A State which is holding over 60000 individuals in Cuba, the ME, and elsewhere abroad without charges pressed for years; in effect, holding men,women, and children who are innocent according to US law(innocent till proven guilty). The US has past history of doing this to individuals, specifically Japanese/German/Italian-Americans during WWII. 3) A State which values multi-billion dollar international corporations over the poor, unless the poor are illegal aliens. and much more. Apparently they are enemies of the state, but they are friends of humanity. PS our soldiers are great though, the problem is the administration

May 2005

See the 'aclu' post in the pit. This guy is a whacky liberal

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Enemies of the State...pure and simple. Bin Laden isn't too bad....his "soldiers" deserve a five star hotel.  How dare "innocent" people be thrown in jail, in the middle of the US, no one would dare throw a suspected murderer in jail. I think the treaties that apply to uniformed soldiers of nation-states should apply to terrorists. They're not that bad...I mean, 9/11 was a long time ago, I'm so over my patriotism now...I think it was an unfortunate fad.... I like it up the ass. I summed up his point a little more clearly for those that don't want to wade through the bullshit. uhm... how about jose padilla, no evidence whatsoever against him; what about the British citizens in Gitmo, some of which were intelligence officers of Britain who got caught while in Afghanistan. We have treaties applying to non-Uniformed combatants, and we are violating those. How would you feel if you were minding your own business, and a JBT busts in and arrests you cause you have more than one firearm in your house(happens in Iraq all the time, even to the Shia), and then doesn't press charges against you and keeps you in jail for multiple years without you having access to a lawyer or any legal defense... it is what we are doing right now to a lot of people. but I guess they must be guilty, because they are brown, afterall, oh and let's not forget they are Muslims, those dirty little raghead scumbags Hey, you're the one that can't tell the difference between an Israeli and a Palestinean in the other thread.  The key isn't to look at their skin, it's whether they're wearing a yamulkah or a tablecloth on their head.. that's how you can tell......

oh, I can tell the difference

palestinean- killing because they have been oppressed, ETA going overboard and being as bad as the Israelis.
Israelis - picked up some of the techniques of the nazis and shoot children, even toddlers, for throwing stones at their heavy, armor plated trucks and tanks.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Enemies of the State...pure and simple. hr Bin Laden isn't too bad....his "soldiers" deserve a five star hotel.  How dare "innocent" people be thrown in jail, in the middle of the US, no one would dare throw a suspected murderer in jail. I think the treaties that apply to uniformed soldiers of nation-states should apply to terrorists. They're not that bad...I mean, 9/11 was a long time ago, I'm so over my patriotism now...I think it was an unfortunate fad.... I like it up the ass. I summed up his point a little more clearly for those that don't want to wade through the bullshit. uhm... how about jose padilla, no evidence whatsoever against him; what about the British citizens in Gitmo, some of which were intelligence officers of Britain who got caught while in Afghanistan. We have treaties applying to non-Uniformed combatants, and we are violating those. How would you feel if you were minding your own business, and a JBT busts in and arrests you cause you have more than one firearm in your house(happens in Iraq all the time, even to the Shia), and then doesn't press charges against you and keeps you in jail for multiple years without you having access to a lawyer or any legal defense... it is what we are doing right now to a lot of people. but I guess they must be guilty, because they are brown, afterall, oh and let's not forget they are Muslims, those dirty little raghead scumbagshy.gif Hey, you're the one that can't tell the difference between an Israeli and a Palestinean in the other thread.  The key isn't to look at their skin, it's whether they're wearing a yamulkah or a tablecloth on their head.. that's how you can tell...... oh, I can tell the difference palestinean- killing because they have been oppressed, ETA going overboard and being as bad as the Israelis. Israelis - picked up some of the techniques of the nazis and shoot children, even toddlers, for throwing stones at their heavy, armor plated trucks and tanks.

You have done an excellent job making yourself look like a first class jackass.  If I was you I would not dig the hole any deeper.

Quoted: oh, I can tell the difference palestinean- killing because they have been oppressed, ETA going overboard and being as bad as the Israelis. Israelis - picked up some of the techniques of the nazis and shoot children, even toddlers, for throwing stones at their heavy, armor plated trucks and tanks.

You're so out of your element, and yet you have no idea, do you?

You're absolutely right. The poor oppressed Palestineans displaced Arabs have no choice but to blow themselves up on busses and in pizzerias.  They're just trying to drive the Jews into the sea, what's wrong with that! It's their right! Right of return, that is!

Arguing with a Palestinean sympathizer is oftentimes like arguing with a child. At best they're uninformed and equivocating fence-sitters - at worst, they're anti-semitic assholes.  Where do you fall?

Quoted: Quoted: oh, I can tell the difference palestinean- killing because they have been oppressed, ETA going overboard and being as bad as the Israelis. Israelis - picked up some of the techniques of the nazis and shoot children, even toddlers, for throwing stones at their heavy, armor plated trucks and tanks. You're so out of your element, and yet you have no idea, do you? You're absolutely right. The poor oppressed Palestineans displaced Arabs have no choice but to blow themselves up on busses and in pizzerias.  They're just trying to drive the Jews into the sea, what's wrong with that! It's their right! Right of return, that is! Arguing with a Palestinean sympathizer is oftentimes like arguing with a child. At best they're uninformed and equivocating fence-sitters - at worst, they're anti-semitic assholes.  Where do you fall?

no, they don't have the right; as I said, they have become just as bad as the Israelis that oppressed them.

of course, all the blame technically belongs with the British and the UN, who set up this shithole of events that we call the Palestinean-Israeli conflict.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: oh, I can tell the difference palestinean- killing because they have been oppressed, ETA going overboard and being as bad as the Israelis. Israelis - picked up some of the techniques of the nazis and shoot children, even toddlers, for throwing stones at their heavy, armor plated trucks and tanks. You're so out of your element, and yet you have no idea, do you? You're absolutely right. The poor oppressed Palestineans displaced Arabs have no choice but to blow themselves up on busses and in pizzerias.  They're just trying to drive the Jews into the sea, what's wrong with that! It's their right! Right of return, that is! Arguing with a Palestinean sympathizer is oftentimes like arguing with a child. At best they're uninformed and equivocating fence-sitters - at worst, they're anti-semitic assholes.  Where do you fall? no, they don't have the right; as I said, they have become just as bad as the Israelis that oppressed them. of course, all the blame technically belongs with the British and the UN, who set up this shithole of events that we call the Palestinean-Israeli conflict.

You might want to check to see if they make a version of Imodium AD for the oral diahrea

EDITED: Disregard.  I really don't give a damn about this guy.

palestinean- killing because they have been oppressed, ETA going overboard and being as bad as the Israelis. Israelis - picked up some of the techniques of the nazis and shoot children, even toddlers, for throwing stones at their heavy, armor plated trucks and tanks.

Riiight.  Oppressed my ass.  Here is a little history primer for you Jew-hatin' mofos who like to cry about oppressed Palestinians.

The Arabs were pretty divided in the 30's about Jews moving into the area now known as Israel; some hated them because they were Jews (no surprise there, considering how popular the National Socialists were in parts of the Arab world in the late 30's), but some welcomed them because they took arid lands and uninhabitable wetlands, and made them into arable land -- their kibbutz's.  

Following WW2, the Brits, having defeated the Nazi's in that area and around Jordan and Sryia, had to do something with the area.  Most of the Arabs by then were really  getting into the Jew-hating business, and so the Brits chose to give the Jews their own little nation.  The Arabs were pissed; one Arab political leader in the area later to become "Palestine" denounced the partitioning, saying, "everyone knows that the area being called "Palestine" is just southern Jordan".  The Arabs mate a fateful, and really lousy, decision: they decided in 1948, "fuck the UN, fuck the British, we're just going to kill all the Jews and take their land".

They failed.

During that war, the Israelis fought just as dirty as the Arabs, including using outright terrorism.  I don't hold that against them, given that they were facing genocide.  As the dust settled, the Israelis were going to kick out all of the Arabs still in their borders, most of whom had been displaced from their homes in the fighting.  One of the Israeli generals, I forget who, convinced his gov't to let them stay.  

Bad move.  Most of those Arabs are now what are known as the Palestinians, and their lands are Palestine.  Should have just kicked all the fuckers out, and we wouldn't have any "Palestine" in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.  The Arabs of course tried several more times to destroy Israel, and failed.  

These days, Arab governments draw attention from their own thuggish rule and back-asswardness by encouraging their populations to hate Israel.  At the same time, they want nothing to do with the Palestinian refugees themselves, and regularly deport them back to the PA.  As long as the Palestinians rot in slums, the Arab governments can use them to help make people hate the Jews.

As for the behavior of the IDF and the Palestinian terrorists.... not even close.  The IDF has a long tradition of upholding human rights, despite the Arabs' and the western Leftists' frequent hysterical claims.  You want to talk about shooting children, then you can start with the Palestinian bastards who shoot their own children just to blame it on the Israelis.  To claim that Israel is some sort of apartheid state is some high-grade, barking-at-the-moon Orwellian lunacy.

The Palestinians and the Arabs in general get no sympathy from me; in 1948 they wrote a check their asses couldn't cash.  Too fucking bad.  And in the meantime, the Arabs keep hating the jews because their governments find it convenient, and the western left hates them becasue they're an ally of the U.S. (this is the same Left that won't forgive the U.S. for defeating the Soviets in the cold war).

Im glad the Israelis finally took the most sensible route to ending the conflict: build a wall around the bastards and let them all shoot each other.

Quoted: Quoted: Enemies of the State...pure and simple. enemies of a state which is the following: 1) A State that has curtailed the civil liberties of all the citizens of the country; it blatantly disregards the 1st,2nd,4th and 5th amendmentswith all sorts of legislation. 2)  A State which is holding over 60000 individuals in Cuba, the ME, and elsewhere abroad without charges pressed for years; in effect, holding men,women, and children who are innocent according to US law(innocent till proven guilty). The US has past history of doing this to individuals, specifically Japanese/German/Italian-Americans during WWII. 3) A State which values multi-billion dollar international corporations over the poor, unless the poor are illegal aliens. and much more. Apparently they are enemies of the state, but they are friends of humanity. PS our soldiers are great though, the problem is the administration

Fuck you, you LLLiberal-indoctrinated Douchebag .

Quoted: oh, I can tell the difference palestinean- killing because they have been oppressed, ETA going overboard and being as bad as the Israelis. Israelis - picked up some of the techniques of the nazis and shoot children, even toddlers, for throwing stones at their heavy, armor plated trucks and tanks.

Fucking CLUELESS arrogant ass. Your "Oppressed" argument is horseshit.

Quoted: palestinean- killing because they have been oppressed, ETA going overboard and being as bad as the Israelis. Israelis - picked up some of the techniques of the nazis and shoot children, even toddlers, for throwing stones at their heavy, armor plated trucks and tanks. Riiight.  Oppressed my ass.  Here is a little history primer for you Jew-hatin' mofos who like to cry about oppressed Palestinians. The Arabs were pretty divided in the 30's about Jews moving into the area now known as Israel; some hated them because they were Jews (no surprise there, considering how popular the National Socialists were in parts of the Arab world in the late 30's), but some welcomed them because they took arid lands and uninhabitable wetlands, and made them into arable land -- their kibbutz's.   Following WW2, the Brits, having defeated the Nazi's in that area and around Jordan and Sryia, had to do something with the area.  Most of the Arabs by then were really  getting into the Jew-hating business, and so the Brits chose to give the Jews their own little nation.  The Arabs were pissed; one Arab political leader in the area later to become "Palestine" denounced the partitioning, saying, "everyone knows that the area being called "Palestine" is just southern Jordan".  The Arabs mate a fateful, and really lousy, decision: they decided in 1948, "fuck the UN, fuck the British, we're just going to kill all the Jews and take their land". They failed. During that war, the Israelis fought just as dirty as the Arabs, including using outright terrorism.  I don't hold that against them, given that they were facing genocide.  As the dust settled, the Israelis were going to kick out all of the Arabs still in their borders, most of whom had been displaced from their homes in the fighting.  One of the Israeli generals, I forget who, convinced his gov't to let them stay.   Bad move.  Most of those Arabs are now what are known as the Palestinians, and their lands are Palestine.  Should have just kicked all the fuckers out, and we wouldn't have any "Palestine" in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.  The Arabs of course tried several more times to destroy Israel, and failed.   These days, Arab governments draw attention from their own thuggish rule and back-asswardness by encouraging their populations to hate Israel.  At the same time, they want nothing to do with the Palestinian refugees themselves, and regularly deport them back to the PA.  As long as the Palestinians rot in slums, the Arab governments can use them to help make people hate the Jews. As for the behavior of the IDF and the Palestinian terrorists.... not even close.  The IDF has a long tradition of upholding human rights, despite the Arabs' and the western Leftists' frequent hysterical claims.  You want to talk about shooting children, then you can start with the Palestinian bastards who shoot their own children just to blame it on the Israelis.  To claim that Israel is some sort of apartheid state is some high-grade, barking-at-the-moon Orwellian lunacy. The Palestinians and the Arabs in general get no sympathy from me; in 1948 they wrote a check their asses couldn't cash.  Too fucking bad.  And in the meantime, the Arabs keep hating the jews because their governments find it convenient, and the western left hates them becasue they're an ally of the U.S. (this is the same Left that won't forgive the U.S. for defeating the Soviets in the cold war). Im glad the Israelis finally took the most sensible route to ending the conflict: build a wall around the bastards and let them all shoot each other.

uhm... the Palestineans HAVE been there for multiple centuries, in fact, the populations can be traced back to just after the Roman conquest of the Eastern Mediterranean; just cause the Brits didn't call it palestine does not mean that there were not Palestineans there. As for the partitioning and allocating land to the Israelies, one just merely has to look at the history of the UN resolution creating the state and the history of that resolution to see the incredibly anti-Palestinean sentiment among those who voted for the act. Quite frankly, the Jews displaced the indigenous population during the immigration of Jews into the region under the watchful eye of the British government before they pushed for the region to be made into Israel. Israel also had many opportunities to get better, and more land, from other countries; including the proposition to give a sizeable section of Texas for a Jewish homeland, as well as the Brazilians willing to give around a 1/3 of their country to be made into Israel; only a small section of the Jewish people pushed for the state of Israel being in the ME.

The end resolution screwed both the Israelis and the recently displaced Palestinean populations when the surrounding Arab states found someone to be the King of Jordan, and then pushed for a Jordanese homeland to be included in the proposal; end result: the Kingdom of Jordan got the lush, good land, and Israel and Palestine got the crap left over. Of course, the Arab states disliked the resolution for allowing Israel in the ME at all, and soon proceeded to attack the newfound state of Israel; we all know how this ended. through the few wars that occured upthrough the late sixties, Israel managed to take over the West-Bank, the Gaza strip, and the majority of Jerusalem from the Palestineans.

Of course, this sparked the intifadah and the attempt to reconquer the terroritories stolen by Israel, not through war, but through colonization of another country's properties. this fight is still waged; the butchers on both sides of the aisle murder eachothers children and overall both deserve to be killed.


as for apartheidism... look at Israels housing/zoning laws if you want to see an example of apartheid behavior, let us just say that housing permits are places well above the cost that an individual palestineans income and the effects of these laws are well documented. The Israelis treat their Arab citizens as second-class, and there are entire areas of Jerusalem and the West Bank where you may not travel as an Arab; in some areas, this prohibition sections Arabs into what may only be described as Ghettos. Arabs in many cases do not get to vote in elections, due to the fact that voting booths are not made in the Arab sectors of the country. The whole situation is very reminiscent of the Jim Crow law era in this country when one evaluates it, and serves as one of the great many reasons no country wants to help Israel except the US.

speaking of the US involvement, the US has no logical reason to support Israel outside of the "balance of power" in the ME region. Israel has repeatedly stolen and or abused our Technology for profit or protection from the US's enemies; examples: the sale of the PATRIOT missile system technology to China in the early '90s as well as the sale of the F22 raptor prototype schematics to the Chinese. They also shot down a plane carrying a plutonium shipment during the early '50s, then proceeding to use this plutonium in their own nuclear weapon program. How do we deal with these problems? We don't do anything, instead, we continue giving multiple billions in aid to Israel, which a majority goes to weapons programs and ordnance.

and I am sure the palestineans kill their own children, I mean we all know black people hung/lynched themselves to make whites look bad

I am not arguing that Palestineans have gone off the deep end, but the Israelis are just as bad, if not worse, atleast in terms of posing a national security risk to the United States with every deal we give them.

Quoted: Quoted: oh, I can tell the difference palestinean- killing because they have been oppressed, ETA going overboard and being as bad as the Israelis. Israelis - picked up some of the techniques of the nazis and shoot children, even toddlers, for throwing stones at their heavy, armor plated trucks and tanks. Fucking CLUELESS arrogant ass. Your "Oppressed" argument is horseshit.

well, my historical evidence can be backed up by international records and multiple,non-biased,non-partisan sources, yours can't.

Dear lord, can we put 'bringing down the collective IQ' as a CoC violation?

ETA:

Hello cyanide!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Enemies of the State...pure and simple. Bin Laden isn't too bad....his "soldiers" deserve a five star hotel.  How dare "innocent" people be thrown in jail, in the middle of the US, no one would dare throw a suspected murderer in jail. I think the treaties that apply to uniformed soldiers of nation-states should apply to terrorists. They're not that bad...I mean, 9/11 was a long time ago, I'm so over my patriotism now...I think it was an unfortunate fad.... I like it up the ass. I summed up his point a little more clearly for those that don't want to wade through the bullshit. uhm... how about jose padilla, no evidence whatsoever against him; what about the British citizens in Gitmo, some of which were intelligence officers of Britain who got caught while in Afghanistan. We have treaties applying to non-Uniformed combatants, and we are violating those. How would you feel if you were minding your own business, and a JBT busts in and arrests you cause you have more than one firearm in your house(happens in Iraq all the time, even to the Shia), and then doesn't press charges against you and keeps you in jail for multiple years without you having access to a lawyer or any legal defense... it is what we are doing right now to a lot of people. but I guess they must be guilty, because they are brown, afterall, oh and let's not forget they are Muslims, those dirty little raghead scumbags Hey, you're the one that can't tell the difference between an Israeli and a Palestinean in the other thread.  The key isn't to look at their skin, it's whether they're wearing a yamulkah or a tablecloth on their head.. that's how you can tell...... oh, I can tell the difference palestinean- killing because they have been oppressed, ETA going overboard and being as bad as the Israelis. Israelis - picked up some of the techniques of the nazis and shoot children, even toddlers, for throwing stones at their heavy, armor plated trucks and tanks.

Hi Chris !     Taking the word "Flake" to a whole new level, I see !

See ya round, on your next account, have fun !

Quoted:

uhm... the Palestineans HAVE been there for multiple centuries, in fact, the populations can be traced back to just after the Roman conquest of the Eastern Mediterranean; just cause the Brits didn't call it quote]

Paging chapperjoe....anybody got the Rachel Corrie smiley?

I don't feel like wasting my time with this guy; he lost me at the "60k prisoners" nonsense in his initial post.  "Apologist" is probably an apt handle.  I bet he also swallowed the 100k dead Iraqis study.  

People are simply detached from reality.  This country worries me-Bush and the Republican party are by no means my number one choice in leadership, but I'll do whatever's necessary to keep this understanding of the world from having any kind of impact on the direction that my country heads.  It's this sort of peculiar, oddly prioritized worldview that's responsible for what appears to be an imminent desecration of the WTC site.  It's this worldview that may prevail in undermining our efforts in Iraq and elsewhere in the world to the point where we really do live in a world where oppression, torture, injustice and violence are the rule rather than the exception.  I fear for my kids.  

as for apartheidism... look at Israels housing/zoning laws if you want to see an example of apartheid behavior, let us just say that housing permits are places well above the cost that an individual palestineans income and the effects of these laws are well documented. The Israelis treat their Arab citizens as second-class, and there are entire areas of Jerusalem and the West Bank where you may not travel as an Arab; in some areas, this prohibition sections Arabs into what may only be described as Ghettos. Arabs in many cases do not get to vote in elections, due to the fact that voting booths are not made in the Arab sectors of the country. The whole situation is very reminiscent of the Jim Crow law era in this country when one evaluates it, and serves as one of the great many reasons no country wants to help Israel except the US.

Copy/Paste from DU is fun huh?

Clueless moron. It's obvious you have never been there. Your story sounds like the Grand Dragon trying to talk about BET. Which Arab did you get this info from? Better yet, shut up until you have been there and know what is going on.

Arabs not allowed in certain parts of towns? Fucking clownshoes.  

Update on Freedom Center

Freedom Center's Place at Ground Zero in Question
By DAVID W. DUNLAP
www.nytimes.com/2005/08/12/nyregion/12rebuild.html
Published: August 12, 2005
The International Freedom Center was all but shown the door yesterday by state officials, who demanded that the fledgling institution undergo a new round of vetting - by relatives of 9/11 victims, among others - before it can claim the spot it was assigned last year in the World Trade Center's cultural building.

John C. Whitehead, the chairman of the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation, said the Freedom Center had been asked to develop "specific plans, program and governance structure" by Sept. 23, which would then be presented to the public. "If at the end of this process, the L.M.D.C. is not satisfied with the I.F.C.'s proposal, we will find another use or tenant," he said at yesterday's board meeting.

The building itself, designed by the Norwegian firm Snohetta, will end up about 30 percent smaller than the version unveiled in May, Mr. Whitehead said. It will certainly contain a visitors' center but may lose its other designated tenant, the Drawing Center, which Mr. Whitehead said was "finding it difficult to comply with the requirements that have been laid down that they would never present anything that might be offensive to the families" of 9/11 victims.

Richard J. Tofel, the president and chief operating officer of the International Freedom Center, which describes itself as an institution concerned with the history and role of freedom, said, "We look forward to the opportunity to further detail our plans for content and governance, and will do so." He said the center was "fully and enthusiastically committed" to staying in the Snohetta cultural building.

In order to remain, however, the Freedom Center will have to clear hurdles that have no evident dimensions. It is not clear - and Mr. Whitehead declined to elaborate - what criteria the corporation would use to judge the center's plans, what standards would satisfy the corporation or what the exact vetting procedure would be, other than that it would involve discussions, presentations and Web sites. Mr. Whitehead would not even say whether the Freedom Center would have to meet the test of offering no programs that might offend victims' relatives.

It is also unclear how many board members endorsed this new review procedure, since the measure was not voted on, though Mr. Whitehead said he believed his statement reflected a consensus.

Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg and Deputy Mayor Daniel L. Doctoroff immediately objected to the manner in which the review procedure was adopted, contrasting it with the master planning to date.

"We decided to have cultural institutions and picked these cultural institutions through a deliberative process that tried to involve all parts of the community with all different kinds of input," the mayor said, "and Dan and I both think that the L.M.D.C. erred in trying to change that without going through another inclusive process."

Plainly, what began two years ago as the search for cultural tenants to enrich the new World Trade Center has turned into a significant dilemma for Gov. George E. Pataki as he explores a run for the presidency.

If the governor defends the initial selection of the Freedom Center, he faces growing opposition by victims' relatives like Debra Burlingame, who say they fear that the center might be used as a forum for anti-American debate and want nothing in the memorial area that is not related directly to the terrorist attacks.

If Mr. Pataki tries to eject the center himself, he can expect objections that he is repudiating a master plan he once embraced, buckling to political pressure and denying a place for free speech at a site that is supposed to embody American values.

Leaving the matter in the corporation's hands would insulate Mr. Pataki from having to make the choice personally. On the other hand, the board itself might split on the issue, since many of its members already support the Freedom Center and would be reluctant to upend the process under which it was selected last year.

Ms. Burlingame, who attended yesterday's board meeting, said both the Freedom Center and Drawing Center should be removed from the memorial area, though she endorsed the Snohetta building if it can be "redesigned to be filled with the story of 9/11."

"The magnitude of that story would fill several Snohetta buildings," she added.

Frances Beatty Adler, the chairwoman of the Drawing Center, a museum in SoHo, acknowledged that it was looking at alternative locations in Lower Manhattan. She added that "no one has said that we're not in the Snohetta building" and said the center was "working cooperatively with the L.M.D.C. to restore cultural life downtown."

As evidence of the corporation's commitment to cultural programs at the trade center site, Mr. Whitehead also announced yesterday that it would earmark $50 million for the creation of a performing arts center across Fulton Street from the Snohetta building, for the Joyce Theater Foundation and Signature Theater Company.

Moments after Mr. Whitehead finished reading his statement, and before he could adjourn the meeting, Mr. Doctoroff - who sits at the board table as the mayor's representative, just three seats from the chairman - raised his hand to make his disappointment known about the Freedom Center review procedure.

"To reach this conclusion without a significant amount - particularly within this body - of debate and public comment leading up to the debate is disappointing," Mr. Doctoroff said.

THIS is being funded by the general fund? This PC crap and rewriting of the history of this nation is going to take us down. History belongs to everybody that is a citizen of a country. Rewriting history destroys the heritage of all of the citizens. The PC crowd sticks there head up their ass everyday when they get out of bed. In the past these type of people were ignored by all reasonable thinking people. It is a sad day in the history of this country when an event like 9-11 can be totally rewritten to self serve the PC crowd.

Wow what a fucking ripoff.

BTW I did get a chance to visit New York, and also DC, saw the 9/11 exhibit at the Smithsonian in Summer of '03.

This definately pisses me off.

It looks like EBR pieced together his history of the Israeli state from the backs of sugar packets. What a fucking dope. Not worth my effort to bother to correct the Bullshit in his posts.

Quoted: I am not arguing that Palestineans have gone off the deep end

OK, so you don't argue that, but YOU have for sure gone off the deep end with your pathetic blabber.


Take a hint EBRA, take your ass some place else, you are not wanted here.

I am not sure if I feel more anger over this or sadness at how far we have fallen and what the nation will accept...

DAMN !  This one got ugly .    Ya'll need to go back to bashing WalMart .