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Posted: 11/5/2009 6:38:33 AM EST
Discuss.

Link Posted: 11/5/2009 6:39:27 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 6:39:46 AM EST
cue "Free Cat" pic
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 6:40:31 AM EST
IN before.........???
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 6:40:43 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 6:40:56 AM EST
I ran the box over with my truck - without looking, was there really a cat in the box?
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 6:41:00 AM EST
Is that the cat in the box they may be dead or not?
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 6:41:34 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 6:46:19 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 6:46:54 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 6:47:10 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 6:47:43 AM EST
This is one of those bizarre quantum physics things, right? Like the cat is both alive and dead at the same time?
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 6:49:37 AM EST
Superposition of states FTW!


Of course I'm sure the cat considers itself an observer of the system, and so the cat must actually be alive or dead. If you removed the cat from the box, then the box would contain a vial of poison gas that is both broken and not broken at the same time, until you checked.
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 6:50:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/5/2009 6:51:36 AM EST by AR4U]
Originally Posted By XMM:
This is one of those bizarre quantum physics things, right? Like the cat is both alive and dead at the same time?


Correct. Schrodinger came up with the thought experiment to highlight the absurdity of the idea of superposition of states. Too bad for Schrodinger that Nature doesn't ascribe to his notions of absurd.
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 6:50:51 AM EST
I observe the cat to be dead whilst my parallel universe self observes the cat to be alive.
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 6:54:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/5/2009 6:55:17 AM EST by BR870]

Originally Posted By AR4U:
Originally Posted By XMM:
This is one of those bizarre quantum physics things, right? Like the cat is both alive and dead at the same time?


Correct. Schrodinger came up with the thought experiment to highlight the absurdity of the idea of superposition of states. Too bad for Schrodinger that Nature doesn't ascribe to his notions of absurd.
Yeah, he was actually trying to disprove the whole idea IIRC...

Link Posted: 11/5/2009 6:56:30 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 6:56:55 AM EST
Pics or there is no cat.
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 7:00:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By beltfed74:
I observe the cat to be dead whilst my parallel universe self observes the cat to be alive.

Ahhh, the many-worlds interpretation.
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 7:02:20 AM EST
We're talking about the quantum suicide experiment....


I think that just because we are unaware of somethings' state, doesn't change the fact that it IS either alive or dead inside that box.
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 7:03:01 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 7:03:43 AM EST
Originally Posted By BR870:

Originally Posted By AR4U:
Originally Posted By XMM:
This is one of those bizarre quantum physics things, right? Like the cat is both alive and dead at the same time?


Correct. Schrodinger came up with the thought experiment to highlight the absurdity of the idea of superposition of states. Too bad for Schrodinger that Nature doesn't ascribe to his notions of absurd.
Yeah, he was actually trying to disprove the whole idea IIRC...



Yes, and he was wrong. This is best illustrated by the double slit experiment. Read through the second page fur ultimate quantum weirdness.

Basically light shined on two slits interferes with itself, acting like a wave and producing interference patterns. If you use a very weak lightsource so that only ONE photon (particle of light) at a time is incident on the slits, the photon goes through BOTH slits and interferes with ITSELF (superposition of states). Even stranger, if you place a detector on the slits capable of determining which slit the photon went through, the photon only goes through ONE slit, and the interference disappears! In other words, observing the system causes the superposition to collapse into one single state, which is what is observed.
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 7:04:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By FLaviator:
We're talking about the quantum suicide experiment....


I think that just because we are unaware of somethings' state, doesn't change the fact that it IS either alive or dead inside that box.


You are incorrect, although you have good company (Schrodinger et al).
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 7:04:56 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 7:08:18 AM EST
Originally Posted By MrMojoRising:
Discuss.



Experiment invalid. Flawed subject. Any conclusion is rendered useless by selecting a subject with nine lives.

Suggest reevaluation using a possum.
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 7:09:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By LibertyShip:
Originally Posted By MrMojoRising:
Discuss.



Experiment invalid. Flawed subject. Any conclusion is rendered useless by selecting a subject with nine lives.

Suggest reevaluation using a possum.


How would you know if the possum was just faking it?
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 7:11:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR4U:
Originally Posted By BR870:

Originally Posted By AR4U:
Originally Posted By XMM:
This is one of those bizarre quantum physics things, right? Like the cat is both alive and dead at the same time?


Correct. Schrodinger came up with the thought experiment to highlight the absurdity of the idea of superposition of states. Too bad for Schrodinger that Nature doesn't ascribe to his notions of absurd.
Yeah, he was actually trying to disprove the whole idea IIRC...



Yes, and he was wrong. This is best illustrated by the double slit experiment. Read through the second page fur ultimate quantum weirdness.

Basically light shined on two slits interferes with itself, acting like a wave and producing interference patterns. If you use a very weak lightsource so that only ONE photon (particle of light) at a time is incident on the slits, the photon goes through BOTH slits and interferes with ITSELF (superposition of states). Even stranger, if you place a detector on the slits capable of determining which slit the photon went through, the photon only goes through ONE slit, and the interference disappears! In other words, observing the system causes the superposition to collapse into one single state, which is what is observed.

Yeah, I'm familiar with the double split experiment. In fact I was in a band when I was younger called "sum-over-paths" Kinda nerdy experimental electronica...

Now if we really wanna start confusing people in here, we should try and get people to wrap their head around causality violation in Relativity.
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 7:14:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By BR870:

Originally Posted By AR4U:
Originally Posted By BR870:

Originally Posted By AR4U:
Originally Posted By XMM:
This is one of those bizarre quantum physics things, right? Like the cat is both alive and dead at the same time?


Correct. Schrodinger came up with the thought experiment to highlight the absurdity of the idea of superposition of states. Too bad for Schrodinger that Nature doesn't ascribe to his notions of absurd.
Yeah, he was actually trying to disprove the whole idea IIRC...



Yes, and he was wrong. This is best illustrated by the double slit experiment. Read through the second page fur ultimate quantum weirdness.

Basically light shined on two slits interferes with itself, acting like a wave and producing interference patterns. If you use a very weak lightsource so that only ONE photon (particle of light) at a time is incident on the slits, the photon goes through BOTH slits and interferes with ITSELF (superposition of states). Even stranger, if you place a detector on the slits capable of determining which slit the photon went through, the photon only goes through ONE slit, and the interference disappears! In other words, observing the system causes the superposition to collapse into one single state, which is what is observed.

Yeah, I'm familiar with the double split experiment. In fact I was in a band when I was younger called "sum-over-paths" Kinda nerdy experimental electronica...

Now if we really wanna start confusing people in here, we should try and get people to wrap their head around causality violation in Relativity.


<===Not a physicist. I thought causality wasn't violated in relativity? I thought that squaring that with the superposition of states is part of the problem with merging relativity and quantum mechanics?
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 7:16:03 AM EST
Originally Posted By AR4U:
Originally Posted By LibertyShip:
Originally Posted By MrMojoRising:
Discuss.



Experiment invalid. Flawed subject. Any conclusion is rendered useless by selecting a subject with nine lives.

Suggest reevaluation using a possum.


How would you know if the possum was just faking it?


That's why the possum is perfect for this experiment.
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 7:20:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/5/2009 7:22:41 AM EST by OhioEd]
THE CAKE CAT IS A LIE!
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 7:20:42 AM EST
dude thanks for giveing me a name for my hunter in WoW.. who has a spirit beast pet..
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 7:23:03 AM EST
I personally am a fan of the cat and butterd toast paradox.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 7:24:03 AM EST
What if Schrodinger and Heisenberg had a kid, who'd spank him, and did he get spanked, and would he know it, and would passerby see it, or does it matter. Mr. Gumby, my brain hurts!
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 7:25:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By ttushooter:
I personally am a fan of the cat and butterd toast paradox.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

I liked that one too.
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 7:26:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By Depidy_Dawg:
What if Schrodinger and Heisenberg had a kid, who'd spank him, and did he get spanked, and would he know it, and would passerby see it, or does it matter. Mr. Gumby, my brain hurts!

That's not the only problem. Schrodinger and Heisenberg were both guys.
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 7:28:11 AM EST
He is the Original ARFComer - Get BOTH!


ByteTheBullet (-:
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 7:28:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By max229:

Originally Posted By Depidy_Dawg:
What if Schrodinger and Heisenberg had a kid, who'd spank him, and did he get spanked, and would he know it, and would passerby see it, or does it matter. Mr. Gumby, my brain hurts!

That's not the only problem. Schrodinger and Heisenberg were both guys.


Duh, that was a hypothetical

Link Posted: 11/5/2009 7:31:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR4U:
Originally Posted By BR870:

Originally Posted By AR4U:
Originally Posted By BR870:

Originally Posted By AR4U:
Originally Posted By XMM:
This is one of those bizarre quantum physics things, right? Like the cat is both alive and dead at the same time?


Correct. Schrodinger came up with the thought experiment to highlight the absurdity of the idea of superposition of states. Too bad for Schrodinger that Nature doesn't ascribe to his notions of absurd.
Yeah, he was actually trying to disprove the whole idea IIRC...



Yes, and he was wrong. This is best illustrated by the double slit experiment. Read through the second page fur ultimate quantum weirdness.

Basically light shined on two slits interferes with itself, acting like a wave and producing interference patterns. If you use a very weak lightsource so that only ONE photon (particle of light) at a time is incident on the slits, the photon goes through BOTH slits and interferes with ITSELF (superposition of states). Even stranger, if you place a detector on the slits capable of determining which slit the photon went through, the photon only goes through ONE slit, and the interference disappears! In other words, observing the system causes the superposition to collapse into one single state, which is what is observed.

Yeah, I'm familiar with the double split experiment. In fact I was in a band when I was younger called "sum-over-paths" Kinda nerdy experimental electronica...

Now if we really wanna start confusing people in here, we should try and get people to wrap their head around causality violation in Relativity.


<===Not a physicist. I thought causality wasn't violated in relativity? I thought that squaring that with the superposition of states is part of the problem with merging relativity and quantum mechanics?

Not a physicist either, though both my father and grandfather are, so I get to have these discussions over Turkey Day dinner.

I suppose I should have said sequentiality distortion. You know, the old light bulb in a train thought experiment. Depending on the state of the observer, sequences of events can appear radically different. Two events can be regarded as simultaneous, or not, depending on their space-time locations relative to the observer, and in fact different observers may view the same two events in a different order in time. That is what I meant by "causality violation"...
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 8:02:12 AM EST
I wish the would make another portal
Originally Posted By OhioEd:
THE CAKE CAT IS A LIE!


Link Posted: 11/5/2009 8:31:40 AM EST
I feel like I walked into a Big Bang Theory episode with no hot chick or punch line...
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 8:34:23 AM EST
You could go with Martin Heidegger who would say that through living the cat is facing towards death and thus experiencing its own death...Thusly alive and dieing. not quite the same but still relevant in my opinion.
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 8:34:27 AM EST
Cats are binary.
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 9:01:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/5/2009 9:02:30 AM EST by FLaviator]
Originally Posted By Zhukov:

Originally Posted By FLaviator:
We're talking about the quantum suicide experiment....

I think that just because we are unaware of somethings' state, doesn't change the fact that it IS either alive or dead inside that box.

You won't really know until you look.


Yes, that's true that *I* won't know, my point was, that at least in my mind, I know that the cat IS either alive or dead, it is just unbeknownst to me....


That's like saying that if your buddy goes out and steals a car, he has neither succeeded nor been caught until someone calls you.


If i'm missing something i'd love to hear more, no sarcasm...
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 9:03:39 AM EST
If you watch a cat long enough, you are bound to see something that defies physics.
Mine, for instance, can run vertically.
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 9:22:43 AM EST
Originally Posted By kap_x:
If you watch a cat long enough, you are bound to see something that defies physics.
Mine, for instance, can run vertically.


My 17-pound cat can make himself weigh about 60 pounds.
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 9:25:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By Zhukov:
I AM NOT LOOKING!

I AM NOT LOOKING!



I didn't see what you did there cause I ain't looking.
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 9:30:36 AM EST
No fair, you changed the results by observing!
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 9:37:48 AM EST
[Johnny Castle] "Nobody puts kitty in a box." [/Johnny Castle]
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 9:39:30 AM EST
Ohhhhhhh..........


Immanuel Kant was a real pissant
Who was very rarely stable,
Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy begger
Who could think you under the table,
David Hume could out-consume,
Wilhelm Freidrich Hegel.
And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
Who was just as schloshed as Schlegel....
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 9:41:20 AM EST
If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does a cat really die?
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 9:45:27 AM EST
Originally Posted By FLaviator:
Originally Posted By Zhukov:

Originally Posted By FLaviator:
We're talking about the quantum suicide experiment....

I think that just because we are unaware of somethings' state, doesn't change the fact that it IS either alive or dead inside that box.

You won't really know until you look.


Yes, that's true that *I* won't know, my point was, that at least in my mind, I know that the cat IS either alive or dead, it is just unbeknownst to me....


That's like saying that if your buddy goes out and steals a car, he has neither succeeded nor been caught until someone calls you.


If i'm missing something i'd love to hear more, no sarcasm...


You are indeed missing something: the superposition of quantum states. The cat in the box was originally conceived as an example of quantum superposition, a phenomena normally only associated with very small things, that would be relevant on normal length scales. It was designed to show how preposterous such a theory would be, a reductio ad absurdum. However, the existence of quantum superposition was later shown to be an experimental fact; see the link I posted above to the dual-slit experiment.

Because the the life/death of the cat depends on the superimposed quantum states of a radioactive atom, i.e. is the atom decayed/not decayed, the alive/dead states of the cat are ALSO superimposed. Since the radioactive atom is both decayed and not decayed until it's state is checked, forcing it to become one or the other, the cat is also both alive/dead until it is checked.

Of course, one could argue that the cat is an observer, and so it is constantly "checking" whether it's alive or dead and so therefore it will never be both alive and dead. However, if you forget about the cat and worry about the vial of poison gas, which is inanimate, the vial will be both broken AND unbroken until it is checked/observed, and the superimposed states are forced to collapse into one observable state (i.e. broken or not broken).
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