Schrödinger's cat. - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Schrödinger's cat. (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 11/5/2009 10:53:50 AM EDT

[#1]

Posted: 11/5/2009 10:57:33 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:
We're talking about the quantum suicide experiment....

I think that just because we are unaware of somethings' state, doesn't change the fact that it IS either alive or dead inside that box.

You won't really know until you look.

Yes, that's true that *I* won't know, my point was, that at least in my mind, I know that the cat IS either alive or dead, it is just unbeknownst to me....

That's like saying that if your buddy goes out and steals a car, he has neither succeeded nor been caught until someone calls you.

If i'm missing something i'd love to hear more, no sarcasm...

You are indeed missing something: the superposition of quantum states. The cat in the box was originally conceived as an example of quantum superposition, a phenomena normally only associated with very small things, that would be relevant on normal length scales. It was designed to show how preposterous such a theory would be, a reductio ad absurdum. However, the existence of quantum superposition was later shown to be an experimental fact; see the link I posted above to the dual-slit experiment.

Because the the life/death of the cat depends on the superimposed quantum states of a radioactive atom, i.e. is the atom decayed/not decayed, the alive/dead states of the cat are ALSO superimposed. Since the radioactive atom is both decayed and not decayed until it's state is checked, forcing it to become one or the other, the cat is also both alive/dead until it is checked.

Of course, one could argue that the cat is an observer, and so it is constantly "checking" whether it's alive or dead and so therefore it will never be both alive and dead. However, if you forget about the cat and worry about the vial of poison gas, which is inanimate, the vial will be both broken AND unbroken until it is checked/observed, and the superimposed states are forced to collapse into one observable state (i.e. broken or not broken).

Ah, i see, I had actually forgotten about the Element of Radiation being the deciding factor, it's been a year or two since I last had a discussion about the subject... That makes more sense as you describe it as the cat merely "observing" the situation.

Posted: 11/5/2009 11:00:19 AM EDT

[#3]

If the box starts to stink, it that considered 'checking'?

Posted: 11/5/2009 11:02:17 AM EDT

[#4]

Self fulfilling prophecy

The cat is either dead or not dead,we don't know until we look.

This is a crazy eastern religious way of thinking.
The idea that you need to see something to make it real(ie. "collapse the wave") is easily disproved.
There are people and things all over the world that you do not see or know anything about that effect your daily lives.

If you believe that every possible variation of reality exists until we observe one then you have to believe that one possible variation is a world were you are wrong.
And that this may be that world.

Posted: 11/5/2009 11:03:21 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Discuss.

What if you have a merry-go-round of sufficent radius such that when it revolves at 1 rpm the outer edge has a velocity of the speed of light and two very long cats lying 180 degrees apart on it such that their heads are at the center and their tails at the outer edge also with very long boxes covering the cats?

Posted: 11/5/2009 11:04:35 AM EDT

[#6]

There is no cat.

Posted: 11/5/2009 11:05:44 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Discuss.

What if you have a merry-go-round of sufficent radius such that when it revolves at 1 rpm the outer edge has a velocity of the speed of light and two very long cats lying 180 degrees apart on it such that their heads are at the center and their tails at the outer edge also with very long boxes covering the cats?

You will have two old assed cats in a box.

Posted: 11/5/2009 11:08:32 AM EDT

[#8]

Must be an inside joke thing.

Posted: 11/5/2009 11:42:16 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Self fulfilling prophecy

The cat is either dead or not dead,we don't know until we look.

This is a crazy eastern religious way of thinking.
The idea that you need to see something to make it real(ie. "collapse the wave") is easily disproved.
There are people and things all over the world that you do not see or know anything about that effect your daily lives.

If you believe that every possible variation of reality exists until we observe one then you have to believe that one possible variation is a world were you are wrong.
And that this may be that world.

I don't think you really grasp what Schrodinger's Cat represents.

Quantum superposition is very real, and is experimental fact.

Please, refute the experimental FACTS presented in the double slit experiment, link posted on the first page. After all, its "easily dis-proven."

Edited for post-formatting fail

Posted: 11/5/2009 11:53:22 AM EDT

[#10]

Posted: 11/5/2009 12:18:42 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Discuss.

Experiment invalid. Flawed subject. Any conclusion is rendered useless by selecting a subject with nine lives.

Suggest reevaluation using a possum.

Posted: 11/5/2009 12:27:25 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Discuss.

Experiment invalid. Flawed subject. Any conclusion is rendered useless by selecting a subject with nine lives.

Suggest reevaluation using a possum.

Really, really late double tap?

Posted: 11/5/2009 12:28:31 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Discuss.

Experiment invalid. Flawed subject. Any conclusion is rendered useless by selecting a subject with nine lives.

Suggest reevaluation using a possum.

I know of a possum that recently tried to get into a box.

Posted: 11/5/2009 12:58:20 PM EDT

[#14]

Yesterday, leaving home at 10:20am I ran over a cat.

I came back home at 11:50am and saw the dead cat lying in the driveway,
Nobdy else saw the cat in my absence.

SO.........................what time did it die??????????????

From the blood trail it wasn't instantly

Posted: 11/5/2009 1:10:31 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Yesterday, leaving home at 10:20am I ran over a cat.

I came back home at 11:50am and saw the dead cat lying in the driveway,

Nobdy else saw the cat in my absence.

SO.........................what time did it die??????????????

From the blood trail it wasn't instantly

That have NOTHING to do with this thread topic, nor is it funny.

Posted: 11/5/2009 1:16:42 PM EDT

[#16]

Any way you look at it, all it proves is that a box containing a lump of radioactive material, a vial of poison, and a hammer is a very uncertain method of killing cats.

I recommend 5.56mm.

Use a can if the neighbors are pissy.

j/k

Posted: 11/5/2009 1:31:31 PM EDT

[#17]

New question: How much grass do you have to smoke before this superposition crap seems plausible?

Honestly, the cat is either alive or dead, not a mixture of both, Your observation is not what makes things reality.

Posted: 11/5/2009 1:32:28 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yesterday, leaving home at 10:20am I ran over a cat.

I came back home at 11:50am and saw the dead cat lying in the driveway,
Nobdy else saw the cat in my absence.

SO.........................what time did it die??????????????

From the blood trail it wasn't instantly

That have NOTHING to do with this thread topic, nor is it funny.

-1

I lol'd

Posted: 11/5/2009 1:33:59 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

New question: How much grass do you have to smoke before this superposition crap seems plausible?

Honestly, the cat is either alive or dead, not a mixture of both, Your observation is not what makes things reality.

Your observations are not making it real. Before observing the cat it is "really" a mixture of alive and dead.

Posted: 11/5/2009 1:34:05 PM EDT

[#20]

From the Big Bang Theory:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCOE__N6v4o

Posted: 11/5/2009 1:42:18 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
New question: How much grass do you have to smoke before this superposition crap seems plausible?

Honestly, the cat is either alive or dead, not a mixture of both, Your observation is not what makes things reality.

Your observations are not making it real. Before observing the cat it is "really" a mixture of alive and dead.

Define what you mean by "really".

The cat is either alive or dead, you just can't tell until you open the box. The fact that you don't know whether it is alive or dead does in no way affect its state. When you do observe it to be either dead or alive, it did not become that way just for you.

Posted: 11/5/2009 1:46:38 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:

New question: How much grass do you have to smoke before this superposition crap seems plausible?

Honestly, the cat is either alive or dead, not a mixture of both, Your observation is not what makes things reality.

Your observations are not making it real. Before observing the cat it is "really" a mixture of alive and dead.

Define what you mean by "really".

The cat is either alive or dead, you just can't tell until you open the box. The fact that you don't know whether it is alive or dead does in no way affect its state. When you do observe it to be either dead or alive, it did not become that way just for you.

As hard as it might be to believe for someone who hasn't (I'm guessing) studied modern physics that is incorrect.

Posted: 11/5/2009 1:47:56 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
New question: How much grass do you have to smoke before this superposition crap seems plausible?

Honestly, the cat is either alive or dead, not a mixture of both, Your observation is not what makes things reality.

Your observations are not making it real. Before observing the cat it is "really" a mixture of alive and dead.

Define what you mean by "really".

The cat is either alive or dead, you just can't tell until you open the box. The fact that you don't know whether it is alive or dead does in no way affect its state. When you do observe it to be either dead or alive, it did not become that way just for you.

Some particles do change just because you observe them. The double slit experiment shows that some particles only change because we observe them.

If they can why can't the cat. In Quantum physics every maybe is a yes.

Posted: 11/5/2009 1:49:25 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
New question: How much grass do you have to smoke before this superposition crap seems plausible?

Honestly, the cat is either alive or dead, not a mixture of both, Your observation is not what makes things reality.

Your observations are not making it real. Before observing the cat it is "really" a mixture of alive and dead.

Define what you mean by "really".

The cat is either alive or dead, you just can't tell until you open the box. The fact that you don't know whether it is alive or dead does in no way affect its state. When you do observe it to be either dead or alive, it did not become that way just for you.

Some particles do change just because you observe them. The double slit experiment shows that some particles only change because we observe them.

If they can why can't the cat. In Quantum physics every maybe is a yes.

At the risk of sounding like an idiot (as I'm sure this is addressed by physicists much smarter than myself) how do we prove that if we can't observe the original experiment?

After all, to say it changes if we observe it means that we would have had to have observed it prior to observing it so as to observe that there was a change.

Posted: 11/5/2009 1:51:55 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
New question: How much grass do you have to smoke before this superposition crap seems plausible?

Honestly, the cat is either alive or dead, not a mixture of both, Your observation is not what makes things reality.

Your observations are not making it real. Before observing the cat it is "really" a mixture of alive and dead.

Define what you mean by "really".

The cat is either alive or dead, you just can't tell until you open the box. The fact that you don't know whether it is alive or dead does in no way affect its state. When you do observe it to be either dead or alive, it did not become that way just for you.

Shrodinger's cat is a thought experiment. It is a way of taking an element of quantum physics and explaining it in a way that is more easily grasped. The superposition effects do exist at the sub-atomic level as demonstrated by the 2 slit experiment. Please do not think that in real life the cat is in two states simultaneously. The fact that the cat is capable of observing it's own state (alive or dead) collapses the waveform in reality at the macro scale.

Posted: 11/5/2009 1:54:13 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:

New question: How much grass do you have to smoke before this superposition crap seems plausible?

Honestly, the cat is either alive or dead, not a mixture of both, Your observation is not what makes things reality.

Your observations are not making it real. Before observing the cat it is "really" a mixture of alive and dead.

Define what you mean by "really".

The cat is either alive or dead, you just can't tell until you open the box. The fact that you don't know whether it is alive or dead does in no way affect its state. When you do observe it to be either dead or alive, it did not become that way just for you.

Shrodinger's cat is a thought experiment. It is a way of taking an element of quantum physics and explaining it in a way that is more easily grasped. The superposition effects do exist at the sub-atomic level as demonstrated by the 2 slit experiment. Please do not think that in real life the cat is in two states simultaneously. The fact that the cat is capable of observing it's own state (alive or dead) collapses the waveform in reality.

That's a good point.

Posted: 11/5/2009 1:54:32 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:

New question: How much grass do you have to smoke before this superposition crap seems plausible?

Honestly, the cat is either alive or dead, not a mixture of both, Your observation is not what makes things reality.

Your observations are not making it real. Before observing the cat it is "really" a mixture of alive and dead.

Define what you mean by "really".

The cat is either alive or dead, you just can't tell until you open the box. The fact that you don't know whether it is alive or dead does in no way affect its state. When you do observe it to be either dead or alive, it did not become that way just for you.

Some particles do change just because you observe them. The double slit experiment shows that some particles only change because we observe them.

If they can why can't the cat. In Quantum physics every maybe is a yes.

At the risk of sounding like an idiot (as I'm sure this is addressed by physicists much smarter than myself) how do we prove that if we can't observe the original experiment?

After all, to say it changes if we observe it means that we would have had to have observed it prior to observing it so as to observe that there was a change.

The math!

Posted: 11/5/2009 1:57:40 PM EDT

[#28]

you understand that he used this to show that QM doesn't hold up, right?

he used this as a negative case?

oh well, carry on

Posted: 11/5/2009 1:57:45 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Self fulfilling prophecy

The cat is either dead or not dead,we don't know until we look.

This is a crazy eastern religious way of thinking.

The idea that you need to see something to make it real(ie. "collapse the wave") is easily disproved.

There are people and things all over the world that you do not see or know anything about that effect your daily lives.

If you believe that every possible variation of reality exists until we observe one then you have to believe that one possible variation is a world were you are wrong.

And that this may be that world.

Stop saying that. Theres a theory that if theres no observation of the collapse of the Supergalaxy that it will not happen. Since from our position we can only observe it expand it will never end.

Posted: 11/5/2009 2:01:32 PM EDT

[#30]

Posted: 11/5/2009 2:06:12 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
New question: How much grass do you have to smoke before this superposition crap seems plausible?

Honestly, the cat is either alive or dead, not a mixture of both, Your observation is not what makes things reality.

Your observations are not making it real. Before observing the cat it is "really" a mixture of alive and dead.

Define what you mean by "really".

The cat is either alive or dead, you just can't tell until you open the box. The fact that you don't know whether it is alive or dead does in no way affect its state. When you do observe it to be either dead or alive, it did not become that way just for you.

Some particles do change just because you observe them. The double slit experiment shows that some particles only change because we observe them.

If they can why can't the cat. In Quantum physics every maybe is a yes.

At the risk of sounding like an idiot (as I'm sure this is addressed by physicists much smarter than myself) how do we prove that if we can't observe the original experiment?

After all, to say it changes if we observe it means that we would have had to have observed it prior to observing it so as to observe that there was a change.

The math!

yep though if you take enough time thinking about it makes sense philosophically

Posted: 11/5/2009 2:24:24 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
What if Schrodinger and Heisenberg had a kid, who'd spank him, and did he get spanked, and would he know it, and would passerby see it, or does it matter. Mr. Gumby, my brain hurts!

That's not the only problem. Schrodinger and Heisenberg were both guys.

We don't know if they are male or female, until we look.

Posted: 11/5/2009 2:26:02 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does a cat really die?

Better yet, if I masturbate and nobody catches me does God still kill a kitten?

Posted: 11/5/2009 2:35:51 PM EDT

[#34]

I love it when semi-popular TV shows (in this case, "Defying Gravity" and "Flash Forward") mention scientific anecdotes... then, their audience does a quick Wikipedia search and discusses these issues in their various social circles in an effort to demonstrate their own pseudo-scientific inclination.

Until I open this thread again... I am both being flamed for the above... or agreed with.

Posted: 11/5/2009 2:42:28 PM EDT

[#35]

Observing a thing changes the state of the thing itself.

Posted: 11/5/2009 2:47:16 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
Observing a thing changes the state of the thing itself.

Suddenly, the physics of the supernatural become less... supernatural.

Posted: 11/5/2009 3:02:07 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Self fulfilling prophecy

The cat is either dead or not dead,we don't know until we look.

This is a crazy eastern religious way of thinking.
The idea that you need to see something to make it real(ie. "collapse the wave") is easily disproved.
There are people and things all over the world that you do not see or know anything about that effect your daily lives.

If you believe that every possible variation of reality exists until we observe one then you have to believe that one possible variation is a world were you are wrong.
And that this may be that world.

I don't think you really grasp what Schrodinger's Cat represents.

Quantum superposition is very real, and is experimental fact.

Please, refute the experimental FACTS presented in the double slit experiment, link posted on the first page. After all, its "easily dis-proven."

Edited for post-formatting fail

Thats not a predictable response

The double slit experiment observes an unexplained phenomena.
The theory used to explain it will just be overturned and/or updated in time like every other theory.
I don't have to refute anything,I'll just wait until somebody else dose it for me.
At least once a month there is something in the news that will "re-write the book" on : (insert field of science)__________________

Posted: 11/5/2009 3:09:24 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

I love it when semi-popular TV shows (in this case, "Defying Gravity" and "Flash Forward") mention scientific anecdotes... then, their audience does a quick Wikipedia search and discusses these issues in their various social circles in an effort to demonstrate their own pseudo-scientific inclination.

Until I open this thread again... I am both being flamed for the above... or agreed with.

I actually run and Wikipedia this kind of stuff reading science fiction such as Flashforward, which the book kicks the television shows ass by the way.

That and I listen to that one black guy, and the long gray haired Japanese physicists that pique my interest on television.

Posted: 11/5/2009 3:11:07 PM EDT

[#39]

You must have been watching Stargate SG-1 the other night, too.

Posted: 11/5/2009 3:12:21 PM EDT

[#40]

Hey! Hey! HEY!!

This is GD, dammit! Knock it off!

Posted: 11/5/2009 3:14:04 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

Thats not a predictable response

The double slit experiment observes an unexplained phenomena.

The theory used to explain it will just be overturned and/or updated in time like every other theory.

I don't have to refute anything,I'll just wait until somebody else dose it for me.

At least once a month there is something in the news that will "re-write the book" on : (insert field of science)__________________

Many of the paradoxes of quantum theory have been PROVEN by scientific experiment. Sorry, but you're wrong. You'll be waiting for a long time. Quantum mechanics has been the subject of intense study for almost 100 years now. There's not going to be a sudden overnight revelation that makes everything fit into a neat little box like you hope for.

Posted: 11/5/2009 3:15:47 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
New question: How much grass do you have to smoke before this superposition crap seems plausible?

Honestly, the cat is either alive or dead, not a mixture of both, Your observation is not what makes things reality.

Your observations are not making it real. Before observing the cat it is "really" a mixture of alive and dead.

Define what you mean by "really".

The cat is either alive or dead, you just can't tell until you open the box. The fact that you don't know whether it is alive or dead does in no way affect its state. When you do observe it to be either dead or alive, it did not become that way just for you.

Shrodinger's cat is a thought experiment. It is a way of taking an element of quantum physics and explaining it in a way that is more easily grasped. The superposition effects do exist at the sub-atomic level as demonstrated by the 2 slit experiment. Please do not think that in real life the cat is in two states simultaneously. The fact that the cat is capable of observing it's own state (alive or dead) collapses the waveform in reality.

That's a good point.

My point is that there's no way that concept can apply to a whole goddamn cat.

Posted: 11/5/2009 3:17:16 PM EDT

[#43]

[Locked until (thought experiment) Caturday - Paul]

Posted: 11/5/2009 3:20:26 PM EDT

[#44]

I was hoping we were talking about the book Schrodingers Cat, I was going to respond with:

"Oh Snowcap Teddy you've come back to me!" "Eat my pussy Snocap Teddy, fuck childhood, fuck peter pan, fuck innocence, eat my pussy!!"

Or something like that....

Posted: 11/5/2009 3:20:29 PM EDT

[#45]

Drunk nights at Admiral Spicoli's FTMTW!!!

Posted: 11/5/2009 3:27:15 PM EDT

[#46]

At some point, the cat will be half-dead, or half-alive, midway between...

Posted: 11/5/2009 3:34:57 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Discuss.

Experiment invalid. Flawed subject. Any conclusion is rendered useless by selecting a subject with nine lives.

Suggest reevaluation using a possum.

Really, really late double tap?

I have no idea how that happened. Must have been a glitch in the matrix.

Posted: 11/5/2009 3:35:57 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Thats not a predictable response

The double slit experiment observes an unexplained phenomena.
The theory used to explain it will just be overturned and/or updated in time like every other theory.
I don't have to refute anything,I'll just wait until somebody else dose it for me.
At least once a month there is something in the news that will "re-write the book" on : (insert field of science)__________________

Many of the paradoxes of quantum theory have been PROVEN by scientific experiment. Sorry, but you're wrong. You'll be waiting for a long time. Quantum mechanics has been the subject of intense study for almost 100 years now. There's not going to be a sudden overnight revelation that makes everything fit into a neat little box like you hope for.

String

Posted: 11/5/2009 3:36:22 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

Quoted:

New question: How much grass do you have to smoke before this superposition crap seems plausible?

Honestly, the cat is either alive or dead, not a mixture of both, Your observation is not what makes things reality.

Your observations are not making it real. Before observing the cat it is "really" a mixture of alive and dead.

Define what you mean by "really".

The cat is either alive or dead, you just can't tell until you open the box. The fact that you don't know whether it is alive or dead does in no way affect its state. When you do observe it to be either dead or alive, it did not become that way just for you.

Shrodinger's cat is a thought experiment. It is a way of taking an element of quantum physics and explaining it in a way that is more easily grasped. The superposition effects do exist at the sub-atomic level as demonstrated by the 2 slit experiment. Please do not think that in real life the cat is in two states simultaneously. The fact that the cat is capable of observing it's own state (alive or dead) collapses the waveform in reality.

That's a good point.

My point is that there's no way that concept can apply to a whole goddamn cat.

Why can't you apply quantum mechanics to macroscopic phenomena?