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Posted: 4/30/2011 1:41:15 PM EDT
Let's say you lend someone an item worth $20,000. That person agrees in writing that they will return that item in a certain amount of time. When the time is up, they refuse to return the item and basically tell you "Fuck you! I acknowledge the property is yours and I'm supposed to return it, but I'm not returning your property!" Let's also say that you have audio recordings and numerous emails where this person states in absolute terms that they acknowledge that they are in possession of your property and that you own the property but they refuse to return it to you. So my question is does this fall under the legal definition of criminal theft?

If so, if I took these recordings and emails and presented them to the police, would they arrest the person for criminal theft and seize my property and return it to me?
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:42:14 PM EDT
Pretty sure that's theft.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:44:49 PM EDT
Dang dude , I'm sorry all this crap happens to you.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:44:57 PM EDT
Theft
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:45:12 PM EDT
It's still going to depend on a lot more than you're giving.  I sure as shit wouldn't ask a Brit though.



Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:45:56 PM EDT
No.  They will do a no knock on your home, rape your dog, shoot your girlfriend, sieze your guns, and put you in pound me in the ass jail for wasting their time.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:46:33 PM EDT

Also:



WTF is it at $20k that is man portable/drivable?


Car? Rolex? Alienware PC with all the retarded shit on it? NFA item?


Low end Mac?

Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:48:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/30/2011 1:51:09 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:49:37 PM EDT
I'm pretty certain that they will tell you to take out a civil suit since you willingly handed over the property to the other individual and a breach of contract was involved.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:49:55 PM EDT
What did you loan out?



A car would be easy to get back with you on the title.



Other objects not so easy, next time have some kind of contract notarized when lending something of that value.



Sounds like you need to lawyer up asap, getting someone arrested will not always get your property back.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:49:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/30/2011 1:51:03 PM EDT by America-first]
Double tap.

I'm still pretty sure that its a civil matter between you and the other guy though.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:51:10 PM EDT
Low end Mac?


Lol
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:51:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By itsARanchrifle:
Dang dude , I'm sorry all this crap happens to you.


I have a good life and I'm happy for the most part. Unfortunately there are a lot of people in this world that will take any opportunity that comes along to fuck people over. I had this situation happen to me and I am in discussion with my attorney as to whether this falls under the legal definition of theft.  He says it is not theft, and I disagree with him. He claims it is a contractual breech. I disagree because this person with my property clearly states that they acknowledge that the property is mine and they are depriving the rightful owner (me) of my property. That is the definition of theft IMO.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:55:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 57Strat:
Originally Posted By itsARanchrifle:
Dang dude , I'm sorry all this crap happens to you.


I have a good life and I'm happy for the most part. Unfortunately there are a lot of people in this world that will take any opportunity that comes along to fuck people over. I had this situation happen to me and I am in discussion with my attorney as to whether this falls under the legal definition of theft.  He says it is not theft, and I disagree with him. He claims it is a contractual breech. I disagree because this person with my property clearly states that they acknowledge that the property is mine and they are depriving the rightful owner (me) of my property. That is the definition of theft IMO.


That is your definition of "theft", your attorney disagrees and for good reason.

Good luck I hope it works out for you.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:55:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/30/2011 1:55:58 PM EDT by America-first]
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:58:24 PM EDT
Intent
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:59:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By America-first:
Originally Posted By 57Strat:
Originally Posted By itsARanchrifle:
Dang dude , I'm sorry all this crap happens to you.


I have a good life and I'm happy for the most part. Unfortunately there are a lot of people in this world that will take any opportunity that comes along to fuck people over. I had this situation happen to me and I am in discussion with my attorney as to whether this falls under the legal definition of theft.  He says it is not theft, and I disagree with him. He claims it is a contractual breech. I disagree because this person with my property clearly states that they acknowledge that the property is mine and they are depriving the rightful owner (me) of my property. That is the definition of theft IMO.


That is your definition of "theft", your attorney disagrees and for good reason.

Good luck I hope it works out for you.



Definition of Theft (Short Version) - Texas Penal Code

§ 31.03. THEFT.

(a) A person commits an offense if he unlawfully appropriates property with intent to deprive the owner of property.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:00:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By 57Strat:
Let's say you lend someone an item worth $20,000. That person agrees in writing that they will return that item in a certain amount of time. When the time is up, they refuse to return the item and basically tell you "Fuck you! I acknowledge the property is yours and I'm supposed to return it, but I'm not returning your property!" Let's also say that you have audio recordings and numerous emails where this person states in absolute terms that they acknowledge that they are in possession of your property and that you own the property but they refuse to return it to you. So my question is does this fall under the legal definition of criminal theft?

If so, if I took these recordings and emails and presented them to the police, would they arrest the person for criminal theft and seize my property and return it to me?

"That's a civil matter" Police will not help you. You might be able to sue for replevin, or at least for the value of the item.  

I'll hedge that a little bit, depending on your location, the size of the department you deal with etc––for example if it was me and I talked to an officer I had known for years I suspect he would swing by the guy's house and give him a "give it back or else buster" even if he wouldn't really arrest the guy.


Fortunately, we go the other way. You fail to return it and you will go to jail. Depending upon state law, there may be a conversion issue where you have to provide a demand letter for the return of the property. Check your HTF for a cop in the know of TX law.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:01:16 PM EDT
What was taken??

Can you get it back on your own or not?

It is a civil matter until the Judge orders the other party to comply with his Order.  If they don't comply, then it can become criminal.
-SS

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:01:59 PM EDT
show up on his doorstep.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:02:25 PM EDT
I don't know about TX but in IL if you fail to return movies rented in your name you will be arrested and prosecuted. Don't ever let a rommmate rent movies in your name.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:05:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/30/2011 2:08:43 PM EDT by jdessell]
Remember the old saying "Posession is 9/10's of the law"? Well, people still say it for a reason, sadly. You'll probably get your property back. What condition and time frame you get it in... well that's another story. Sorry.
 ETA: This sounds like one of those things you may do better trying to handle yourself. "Bend" the law a little. Couple years ago I had a friend talk me into lending him a '79 Marshall 100 watt Master Volume guitar head, the same exact head Angus Young uses. Little did I know at the time he had no intention of returning it. I had to show up on his doorstep and "persuade" him a little. I got it back. Wish I never woulda sold it though. That amp had the best tone I ever heard... before or since.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:06:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/30/2011 2:12:33 PM EDT by 57Strat]
Originally Posted By SleeperShooter:
What was taken??

Can you get it back on your own or not?

It is a civil matter until the Judge orders the other party to comply with his Order.  If they don't comply, then it can become criminal.
-SS

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile




Of course I could get it back on my own.......if I kicked in their door and pointed a gun at their head. But that would ruin my life and get me 10 years in prison. That is not an option.

I know if I go in front of a judge, the judge will order this person to return my property, but that will cost me about $8000 in legal fees. It would be super easy to have the police arrest this person or threaten arrest and get my property back for me.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:07:03 PM EDT
What was/is it?
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:11:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Chas8008:
What was/is it?


It doesn't matter what it is. It is a piece of property worth $20,000. It is a piece of property without title. If I reveal what the property is then I get a typical GD barrage of irrelevant questions that have nothing to do with the real issue. Before you know it, we'd be discussing 6 other issues that have nothing to do with the original question.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:11:52 PM EDT
That is one expensive fleshlight!
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:13:57 PM EDT



Originally Posted By 57Strat:



Originally Posted By America-first:


Originally Posted By 57Strat:


Originally Posted By itsARanchrifle:

Dang dude , I'm sorry all this crap happens to you.




I have a good life and I'm happy for the most part. Unfortunately there are a lot of people in this world that will take any opportunity that comes along to fuck people over. I had this situation happen to me and I am in discussion with my attorney as to whether this falls under the legal definition of theft.  He says it is not theft, and I disagree with him. He claims it is a contractual breech. I disagree because this person with my property clearly states that they acknowledge that the property is mine and they are depriving the rightful owner (me) of my property. That is the definition of theft IMO.




That is your definition of "theft", your attorney disagrees and for good reason.



Good luck I hope it works out for you.






Definition of Theft (Short Version) - Texas Penal Code



§ 31.03. THEFT.



(a) A person commits an offense if he unlawfully appropriates property with intent to deprive the owner of property.


You have to be able to prove what was in the head of the taker at the moment he appropriated the property.



Otherwise, it's civil.



 
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:15:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By America-first:
I'm pretty certain that they will tell you to take out a civil suit since you willingly handed over the property to the other individual and a breach of contract was involved.


+1
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:15:31 PM EDT




Originally Posted By 57Strat:



Originally Posted By SleeperShooter:

What was taken??



Can you get it back on your own or not?



It is a civil matter until the Judge orders the other party to comply with his Order. If they don't comply, then it can become criminal.

-SS



Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Of course I could get it back on my own.......if I kicked in their door and pointed a gun at their head. But that would ruin my life and get me 10 years in prison. That is not an option.



I know if I go in front of a judge, the judge will order this person to return my property, but that will cost be about $8000 in legal fees. It would be super easy to have the police arrest this person or threaten arrest and get my property back for me.




Is this person telling you that you can NOT come and get it?



If not go and get it. If so then go to court.



Its not theft because he didnt take it ( a required action of your quoted summary of the law), he just wont give it back.



If you dont pay your bank for your house, car or for any other loan, guess what?.........They GO TO COURT and legally get their property back. I'm almost 100% sure that a bank would not spend $8000 to get back a KIA.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:15:52 PM EDT
File a civil suit.  It's really easy.  Just write a page or two of details, and say the guy breached a contract.  
Then take it to the courthouse, and pay a filing fee.  Let the judge decide whether you should get your money back.  

So what if it is criminal theft?  That won't help get your money back. The police don't care about getting your money back –– they are only concerned about crimes, like whether the guy should be locked-up or fined.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:17:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jdessell:
Remember the old saying "Posession is 9/10's of the law"? Well, people still say it for a reason, sadly. You'll probably get your property back. What condition and time frame you get it in... well that's another story. Sorry.





 ETA: This sounds like one of those things you may do better trying to handle yourself. "Bend" the law a little. Couple years ago I had a friend talk me into lending him a '79 Marshall 100 watt Master Volume guitar head, the same exact head Angus Young uses. Little did I know at the time he had no intention of returning it. I had to show up on his doorstep and "persuade" him a little. I got it back. Wish I never woulda sold it though. That amp had the best tone I ever heard... before or since.



This amp is owned by one of my best friends. He let me borrow it for a year one time. He still has it.


Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:17:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/30/2011 2:21:12 PM EDT by LightningII]
is this other person your wife or ex-wife

call the cops, tell then you are going to go get your stuff, show them the paperwork, and go over there.
if the other guy calls the cops, he incriminates himself.

Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:18:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 57Strat:
Originally Posted By itsARanchrifle:
Dang dude , I'm sorry all this crap happens to you.


I have a good life and I'm happy for the most part. Unfortunately there are a lot of people in this world that will take any opportunity that comes along to fuck people over. I had this situation happen to me and I am in discussion with my attorney as to whether this falls under the legal definition of theft.  He says it is not theft, and I disagree with him. He claims it is a contractual breech. I disagree because this person with my property clearly states that they acknowledge that the property is mine and they are depriving the rightful owner (me) of my property. That is the definition of theft IMO.


you are also emotionally involved.

let cooler heads handle this, (attorney, law, or service)

it will save you much more in future court costs and head aches.

and lesson learned, don't loan stuff to people you wouldn't trust your child to is a pretty good rule.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:18:53 PM EDT
Is the item used to produce income?


Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:19:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 57Strat:
Originally Posted By Chas8008:
What was/is it?


It doesn't matter what it is. It is a piece of property worth $20,000. It is a piece of property without title. If I reveal what the property is then I get a typical GD barrage of irrelevant questions that have nothing to do with the real issue. Before you know it, we'd be discussing 6 other issues that have nothing to do with the original question.


Dammit... I want to know.


IMO, that is theft. Maybe an Arfcom cop in the area will talk to him for you.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:20:01 PM EDT



Originally Posted By 57Strat:



Originally Posted By America-first:


Originally Posted By 57Strat:


Originally Posted By itsARanchrifle:

Dang dude , I'm sorry all this crap happens to you.




I have a good life and I'm happy for the most part. Unfortunately there are a lot of people in this world that will take any opportunity that comes along to fuck people over. I had this situation happen to me and I am in discussion with my attorney as to whether this falls under the legal definition of theft.  He says it is not theft, and I disagree with him. He claims it is a contractual breech. I disagree because this person with my property clearly states that they acknowledge that the property is mine and they are depriving the rightful owner (me) of my property. That is the definition of theft IMO.




That is your definition of "theft", your attorney disagrees and for good reason.



Good luck I hope it works out for you.






Definition of Theft (Short Version) - Texas Penal Code



§ 31.03. THEFT.



(a) A person commits an offense if he unlawfully appropriates property with intent to deprive the owner of property.


He didn't unlawfully appropriate the property, you gave it to him.  He breached the contract.  You might have conversion of property, but I am not an attorney.



 
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:21:28 PM EDT
Porn collection?
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:22:01 PM EDT
Do you have records of purchasing said property?


Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:22:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hedonist:
Is the item used to produce income?


No
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:22:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hedonist:
Do you have records of purchasing said property?


Yes
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:22:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 57Strat:
Originally Posted By Hedonist:
Is the item used to produce income?


No


Is the item shiny?
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:24:06 PM EDT
In Texas, the situation you have presented to me would be handled as a civil matter. I would tell you to take it to civil court and clear the call information. You gave him the property, he just didnt return it.

He did not take the property without your knowledge, there was an agreement made. If cops investigated every situation like yours they would get very little else accomplished. Most cops are also not going to violate their neutrality in 3rd party matters by goign to the guys house and threatening to arrest him for theft. They are either going to listen to the evience that you presented, determine if there is enough evidence for an arrest warrant, and then get the district attorney to issue a warrant for his arrest, they are not going to threaten to do something that they cannot legall do.

But like i said, your issue is a civil matter and should be handled as such.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:24:06 PM EDT
Is the item bigger than a standard size 2-loaf breadbox?
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:25:12 PM EDT
im going to agree with the lawyer. he signed a contract. he is refusing to adibe by the contract in returning property. that is breach of contract. normal disclaimer is i am not a lawyer and i might be wrong.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:25:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hkusp9:
In Texas, the situation you have presented to me would be handled as a civil matter. I would tell you to take it to civil court and clear the call information. You gave him the property, he just didnt return it.

He did not take the property without your knowledge, there was an agreement made. If cops investigated every situation like yours they would get very little else accomplished. Most cops are also not going to violate their neutrality in 3rd party matters by goign to the guys house and threatening to arrest him for theft. They are either going to listen to the evience that you presented, determine if there is enough evidence for an arrest warrant, and then get the district attorney to issue a warrant for his arrest, they are not going to threaten to do something that they cannot legall do.

But like i said, your issue is a civil matter and should be handled as such.


Funny... That's exactly what cops tend to do, haha.

Okay, back on topic.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:25:37 PM EDT
Is the item hidden from your view?



Do you know with certainty this guy still has possession?  or could he have pawned it?


Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:26:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:26:53 PM EDT
While this is a civil matter he entered into a contract and has subsequently broken that contract.  Take him to civil court because you have a pretty damn good case.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:27:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:28:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hedonist:
Is the item hidden from your view?

Do you know with certainty this guy still has possession?  or could he have pawned it?




I have voice recordings and emails where this person states in absolute terms that they are in possession of my property, that they acknowledge the property is mine, and they refuse to return the property to me. That's all I can tell you. They could have stuck it up the butt of an elephant at the zoo for all I know. The possibilities are endless.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:29:46 PM EDT
If you have recordings of conversations you have to be cognizant of what the recording laws are in your state.  I'm sure you know, but in some places you can't record somebody w/o their knowledge.
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