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Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:30:31 PM EST
[#1]



Quoted:



Quoted:

Is the item hidden from your view?



Do you know with certainty this guy still has possession?  or could he have pawned it?


I have voice recordings and emails where this person states in absolute terms that they are in possession of my property, that they acknowledge the property is mine, and they refuse to return the property to me. That's all I can tell you. They could have stuck it up the butt of an elephant at the zoo for all I know. The possibilities are endless.


Is TX a 1 or 2 party State in regards to recordings? - assuming it isn't voicemail we're talking about.



 
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:30:32 PM EST
[#2]
"In explaining the meaning and comprehensiveness of the word "taking," as used in the Texas statutory definition of theft, Tex. Penal Code art. 727 provides, amongst other things, that if the taking, though originally lawful, was obtained by any false pretext, or with any intent to deprive the owner of the value thereof and appropriate the property to the use and benefit of the person taking, and the same is so appropriated, the offense of theft is complete. This is where the possession of property has been acquired lawfully by the taker, that is, where the owner consents to part with the possession of his property and the taker obtains possession by virtue of such consent. In such cases, the taker may be guilty of theft, notwithstanding such lawful possession, by one or the other of the two modes mentioned in the statute; that is, first, by his having obtained such possession by any false pretext, which induced or deceived the owner into surrendering the possession to him; or, second, where he has obtained possession from the owner and at the time intends to deprive him of the value thereof and appropriate the property to his own use and benefit. Either one of these modes of acquisition of property will separately constitute theft under the Texas Code."
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:31:53 PM EST
[#3]
Quoted:
"In explaining the meaning and comprehensiveness of the word "taking," as used in the Texas statutory definition of theft, Tex. Penal Code art. 727 provides, amongst other things, that if the taking, though originally lawful, was obtained by any false pretext, or with any intent to deprive the owner of the value thereof and appropriate the property to the use and benefit of the person taking, and the same is so appropriated, the offense of theft is complete. This is where the possession of property has been acquired lawfully by the taker, that is, where the owner consents to part with the possession of his property and the taker obtains possession by virtue of such consent. In such cases, the taker may be guilty of theft, notwithstanding such lawful possession, by one or the other of the two modes mentioned in the statute; that is, first, by his having obtained such possession by any false pretext, which induced or deceived the owner into surrendering the possession to him; or, second, where he has obtained possession from the owner and at the time intends to deprive him of the value thereof and appropriate the property to his own use and benefit. Either one of these modes of acquisition of property will separately constitute theft under the Texas Code."


Perhaps you can get him to admit he never planned on returning the item...

Worth a shot.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:32:31 PM EST
[#4]



Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:

Dang dude , I'm sorry all this crap happens to you.




I have a good life and I'm happy for the most part. Unfortunately there are a lot of people in this world that will take any opportunity that comes along to fuck people over. I had this situation happen to me and I am in discussion with my attorney as to whether this falls under the legal definition of theft.  He says it is not theft, and I disagree with him. He claims it is a contractual breech. I disagree because this person with my property clearly states that they acknowledge that the property is mine and they are depriving the rightful owner (me) of my property. That is the definition of theft IMO.




That is your definition of "theft", your attorney disagrees and for good reason.



Good luck I hope it works out for you.
so if I rent something from a tool rental company and do not return it is is not theft only a  contractual breech? Good to know





 
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:34:59 PM EST
[#5]
Quoted:
If you have recordings of conversations you have to be cognizant of what the recording laws are in your state.  I'm sure you know, but in some places you can't record somebody w/o their knowledge.


In Texas only one party has to be aware that the conversation is being recorded.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:35:35 PM EST
[#6]
You just need someone the guy doesn't know that you know - to rent it from him.  Whatever it is.





Or, "steal" it - assuming it belongs to you - as you've stated.





ETA - place want to rent ad on craigslist for item similar - list other items similar in nature - make the guy work for it.



Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:36:15 PM EST
[#7]
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:36:56 PM EST
[#8]




Quoted:



Quoted:

Remember the old saying "Posession is 9/10's of the law"? Well, people still say it for a reason, sadly. You'll probably get your property back. What condition and time frame you get it in... well that's another story. Sorry.
ETA: This sounds like one of those things you may do better trying to handle yourself. "Bend" the law a little. Couple years ago I had a friend talk me into lending him a '79 Marshall 100 watt Master Volume guitar head, the same exact head Angus Young uses. Little did I know at the time he had no intention of returning it. I had to show up on his doorstep and "persuade" him a little. I got it back. Wish I never woulda sold it though. That amp had the best tone I ever heard... before or since.






This amp is owned by one of my best friends. He let me borrow it for a year one time. He still has it.





https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_fLivvlC4b6A/TbyKVZSnO_I/AAAAAAAABfQ/kCxgGhcAE-o/s800/124_2423.JPG

 Is that a Plexi?

Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:36:57 PM EST
[#9]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Dang dude , I'm sorry all this crap happens to you.


I have a good life and I'm happy for the most part. Unfortunately there are a lot of people in this world that will take any opportunity that comes along to fuck people over. I had this situation happen to me and I am in discussion with my attorney as to whether this falls under the legal definition of theft.  He says it is not theft, and I disagree with him. He claims it is a contractual breech. I disagree because this person with my property clearly states that they acknowledge that the property is mine and they are depriving the rightful owner (me) of my property. That is the definition of theft IMO.


That is your definition of "theft", your attorney disagrees and for good reason.

Good luck I hope it works out for you.



Definition of Theft (Short Version) - Texas Penal Code

§ 31.03. THEFT.

(a) A person commits an offense if he unlawfully appropriates property with intent to deprive the owner of property.



You gave over the property.....they didnt unlawful appropriate it.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:38:09 PM EST
[#10]
What is his reason for not wanting to return this mystery item?
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:40:15 PM EST
[#11]
Quoted:
What is his reason for not wanting to return this mystery item?


Because they are a scumbag opportunist.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:40:33 PM EST
[#12]
The guy is holding it as collateral, right?  Just pay him.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:42:28 PM EST
[#13]
Quoted:
Quoted:
What is his reason for not wanting to return this mystery item?


Because they are a scumbag opportunist.


Karma would see his house burn down...
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:43:22 PM EST
[#14]
Quoted:
The guy is holding it as collateral, right?  Just pay him.


NO!!!! Fuck no. That is not the case at all. Stop speculating. I in good faith lent this person an item and they are now fucking me over.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:44:29 PM EST
[#15]
Quoted:

Of course I could get it back on my own.......if I kicked in their door and pointed a gun at their head. But that would ruin my life and get me 10 years in prison. That is not an option.



Yep.  You definitely don't want to go all "O.J. Simpson" on the guy.

Good luck getting it back.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:45:22 PM EST
[#16]



Quoted:



Quoted:

What was/is it?




It doesn't matter what it is. It is a piece of property worth $20,000. It is a piece of property without title. If I reveal what the property is then I get a typical GD barrage of irrelevant questions that have nothing to do with the real issue. Before you know it, we'd be discussing 6 other issues that have nothing to do with the original question.




It's a ring, isn't it?
 
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:46:10 PM EST
[#17]
Was he supposed to pay you for it's use?  Or did you just let him borrow it for free?



Written or oral agreement on the return date?




As a few have mentioned, look and see if it falls under conversion depending on the details.




Otherwise, civil suit it be.  If it's important, and it's worth 20 large... why the fuck did you let anyone borrow it?




Put on a miniskirt and lipstick, don't be surprised when you get fucked.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:46:35 PM EST
[#18]
Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:
What was/is it?


It doesn't matter what it is. It is a piece of property worth $20,000. It is a piece of property without title. If I reveal what the property is then I get a typical GD barrage of irrelevant questions that have nothing to do with the real issue. Before you know it, we'd be discussing 6 other issues that have nothing to do with the original question.


It's a ring, isn't it?


 


I was thinking jewelry or machinery.

Maybe a trailer or something...
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:47:01 PM EST
[#19]



Quoted:



Quoted:

The guy is holding it as collateral, right?  Just pay him.




NO!!!! Fuck no. That is not the case at all. Stop speculating. I in good faith lent this person an item and they are now fucking me over.


Sorry, but lol on your response - if you don't give us details we're going to GD your topic and by page 3 everyone will be saying "just pay the guy".



What is this mystery item?
 
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:47:41 PM EST
[#20]

Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:47:46 PM EST
[#21]



Quoted:



Quoted:




Quoted:


Quoted:

What was/is it?




It doesn't matter what it is. It is a piece of property worth $20,000. It is a piece of property without title. If I reveal what the property is then I get a typical GD barrage of irrelevant questions that have nothing to do with the real issue. Before you know it, we'd be discussing 6 other issues that have nothing to do with the original question.




It's a ring, isn't it?





 




I was thinking jewelry or machinery.



Maybe a trailer or something...


He said it isn't titled, so that rules out a lot of the big items.

 
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:48:14 PM EST
[#22]
Legalfag here,

You gave him possession, and he kept the property for longer. From my understanding the facts suggest embezzlement. Embezzlement is when someone takes something lawfully and while its in their possession converts it to their own illegally. Seems pretty cut and dry to me, although I'm not very familiar with Texuhs law.

If your attorney is suggesting that its a contractual issue, either 1. your not giving us all the facts surrounding the matter, or 2. your attorney is mistaken. Upon a second read there might be, but frankly, i just looked up embezzlement so im sticking to it. Then again i dont think its a contractual issue, because there is no consideration for the lending. promise + consideration = contract. Your missing a piece.

The first and easiest step would be to go to the police station, explain your situation & evidence, then ask the fuzz to accompany you to this mans house to get your stuff back. OR just be a bit vague / silent on the issue, say your going to pick up your amp and you'd feel safer with a police officer there. Don't ask anything official, say he's consented to you picking the stuff up, but has been drinking or something to just get the cop to go with you as if enforcing your right to take the shit.  People act very different when police are on the scene.

If not, I'd be sure to get a pre-judgment seizure of the property, seeing as the property is fragile and this D-bag might "lose / damage" it in the interim.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:48:41 PM EST
[#23]
Quoted:
Was he supposed to pay you for it's use?  Or did you just let him borrow it for free?

Written or oral agreement on the return date?

As a few have mentioned, look and see if it falls under conversion depending on the details.

Otherwise, civil suit it be.  If it's important, and it's worth 20 large... why the fuck did you let anyone borrow it?

Put on a miniskirt and lipstick, don't be surprised when you get fucked.


From the OP:


"That person agrees in writing that they will return that item in a certain amount of time."
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:49:15 PM EST
[#24]
I figured it out...

It was a kilo of cocaine... You gave it to him to sell and he stiffed you.

Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:49:45 PM EST
[#25]
Have you checked the elephant rectums at the local zoo yet?
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:50:48 PM EST
[#26]
Quoted:
Legalfag here,

You gave him possession, and he kept the property for longer. From my understanding the facts suggest embezzlement. Embezzlement is when someone takes something lawfully and while its in their possession converts it to their own illegally. Seems pretty cut and dry to me, although I'm not very familiar with Texuhs law.

If your attorney is suggesting that its a contractual issue, either 1. your not giving us all the facts surrounding the matter, or 2. your attorney is mistaken.

The first and easiest step would be to go to the police station, explain your situation & evidence, then ask the fuzz to accompany you to this mans house to get your stuff back.

If not, I'd be sure to get a pre-judgment seizure of the property, seeing as the property is fragile and this D-bag might "lose / damage" it in the interim.




Embezzlement. I like this angle. Police will arrest people for that, right?
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:51:44 PM EST
[#27]
Quoted:
Pretty sure that's theft.


Not theft.  It is non criminal.
Take him to Court and sue him civilly.

Like if you loan someone your car and they do not bring it back.  Not auto theft.  Civil.
Rent someone a house or a room and they agree then fail to pay.  Kick them out>  Nope!  Go to Court and have a Judge kick them out.  It is Civil.
Loan someone money (even $20,000) and they do not pay you back?  Civil.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:53:03 PM EST
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Dang dude , I'm sorry all this crap happens to you.


I have a good life and I'm happy for the most part. Unfortunately there are a lot of people in this world that will take any opportunity that comes along to fuck people over. I had this situation happen to me and I am in discussion with my attorney as to whether this falls under the legal definition of theft.  He says it is not theft, and I disagree with him. He claims it is a contractual breech. I disagree because this person with my property clearly states that they acknowledge that the property is mine and they are depriving the rightful owner (me) of my property. That is the definition of theft IMO.


Your attorney is right. You might try asking the police or sheriff's deputies to go with you when you make a formal demand for return of your property. Sometimes an idiot will change his tune when the police show up. Probably not, and you'll have to take him to civil court.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:53:06 PM EST
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Legalfag here,

You gave him possession, and he kept the property for longer. From my understanding the facts suggest embezzlement. Embezzlement is when someone takes something lawfully and while its in their possession converts it to their own illegally. Seems pretty cut and dry to me, although I'm not very familiar with Texuhs law.

If your attorney is suggesting that its a contractual issue, either 1. your not giving us all the facts surrounding the matter, or 2. your attorney is mistaken.

The first and easiest step would be to go to the police station, explain your situation & evidence, then ask the fuzz to accompany you to this mans house to get your stuff back.

If not, I'd be sure to get a pre-judgment seizure of the property, seeing as the property is fragile and this D-bag might "lose / damage" it in the interim.




Embezzlement. I like this angle. Police will arrest people for that, right?


ha ha. When you have millions to spend on accountants / lawyers its a bit tougher to get stuck with this one.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:53:34 PM EST
[#30]



Quoted:


I figured it out...



It was a kilo of cocaine... You gave it to him to sell and he stiffed you.





I'm thinking Marsellus Wallace's briefcase.





 
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:54:39 PM EST
[#31]



Quoted:



Quoted:

Was he supposed to pay you for it's use?  Or did you just let him borrow it for free?



Written or oral agreement on the return date?




As a few have mentioned, look and see if it falls under conversion depending on the details.




Otherwise, civil suit it be.  If it's important, and it's worth 20 large... why the fuck did you let anyone borrow it?




Put on a miniskirt and lipstick, don't be surprised when you get fucked.




From the OP:





"That person agrees in writing that they will return that item in a certain amount of time."


Gah... I'm retarded.  RIF, I guess.  Apologies.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:54:51 PM EST
[#32]
Quoted:
Definition of Theft (Short Version) - Texas Penal Code

§ 31.03. THEFT.

(a) A person commits an offense if he unlawfully appropriates property with intent to deprive the owner of property.


No proof he appropriated with the intent.  He may have formed the intent after he appropriated the property.
His version may be that you owe him $20,000 and you gave him that to hold as collateral....
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:55:14 PM EST
[#33]
Civil.    File a lawsuit in civil court.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:55:20 PM EST
[#34]
Quoted:
Let's say you lend someone an item worth $20,000. That person agrees in writing that they will return that item in a certain amount of time. When the time is up, they refuse to return the item and basically tell you "Fuck you! I acknowledge the property is yours and I'm supposed to return it, but I'm not returning your property!" Let's also say that you have audio recordings and numerous emails where this person states in absolute terms that they acknowledge that they are in possession of your property and that you own the property but they refuse to return it to you. So my question is does this fall under the legal definition of criminal theft?

If so, if I took these recordings and emails and presented them to the police, would they arrest the person for criminal theft and seize my property and return it to me?


No.

Civil dispute.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:55:58 PM EST
[#35]
Quoted:
Of course I could get it back on my own.......if I kicked in their door and pointed a gun at their head. But that would ruin my life and get me 10 years in prison. That is not an option.

I know if I go in front of a judge, the judge will order this person to return my property, but that will cost me about $8000 in legal fees. It would be super easy to have the police arrest this person or threaten arrest and get my property back for me.


Except that the police are not your own private army to go around threatening people....


Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:56:37 PM EST
[#36]
Quoted:
Quoted:
What was/is it?


It doesn't matter what it is. It is a piece of property worth $20,000. It is a piece of property without title. If I reveal what the property is then I get a typical GD barrage of irrelevant questions that have nothing to do with the real issue. Before you know it, we'd be discussing 6 other issues that have nothing to do with the original question.


No reason to discuss it further.  It is a civil matter.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:56:40 PM EST
[#37]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Pretty sure that's theft.


Not theft.  It is non criminal.
Take him to Court and sue him civilly.

Like if you loan someone your car and they do not bring it back.  Not auto theft.  Civil.


Really? You guys don't have rock rentals in Kali anymore?

How about rental cars. For some reason the overdue rentals are still reported stolen in Kali.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:57:34 PM EST
[#38]
Quoted:
Civil.    File a lawsuit in civil court.


It is both civil and criminal, threaten to hit this fool with both! (trespass to chattels / conversion in civil and embezzlement in criminal)

Civil you would sue to get it back / damages and criminal a prosecutor would sue for embezzlement so he doesnt do it again. Doubt a prosecutor would take this case though.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:58:17 PM EST
[#39]




Quoted:

Let's say you lend someone an item worth $20,000. That person agrees in writing that they will return that item in a certain amount of time. When the time is up, they refuse to return the item and basically tell you "Fuck you! I acknowledge the property is yours and I'm supposed to return it, but I'm not returning your property!" Let's also say that you have audio recordings and numerous emails where this person states in absolute terms that they acknowledge that they are in possession of your property and that you own the property but they refuse to return it to you. So my question is does this fall under the legal definition of criminal theft?



If so, if I took these recordings and emails and presented them to the police, would they arrest the person for criminal theft and seize my property and return it to me?




"I'm sorry sir, I can't help you.  That is a civil matter.  Have a nice day."

Link Posted: 4/30/2011 1:59:30 PM EST
[#40]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is the item used to produce income?


No


Is the item shiny?


Is it a mail-order bride?
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:00:55 PM EST
[#41]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Of course I could get it back on my own.......if I kicked in their door and pointed a gun at their head. But that would ruin my life and get me 10 years in prison. That is not an option.

I know if I go in front of a judge, the judge will order this person to return my property, but that will cost me about $8000 in legal fees. It would be super easy to have the police arrest this person or threaten arrest and get my property back for me.


Except that the police are not your own private army to go around threatening people....





Yeah...I know. That would take away from their doughnut time.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:02:04 PM EST
[#42]
If the item can't produce income, then I don't know why you lent it.



It sounds like you discovered she has a penis, and won't return the ring.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:02:24 PM EST
[#43]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Of course I could get it back on my own.......if I kicked in their door and pointed a gun at their head. But that would ruin my life and get me 10 years in prison. That is not an option.

I know if I go in front of a judge, the judge will order this person to return my property, but that will cost me about $8000 in legal fees. It would be super easy to have the police arrest this person or threaten arrest and get my property back for me.


Except that the police are not your own private army to go around threatening people....





Yeah...I know. That would take away from their doughnut time.


They have more important things to worry about.

Such as speeders, illegal turners, people with out tag lights and other equipment violations, and pot smokers.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:02:39 PM EST
[#44]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is the item used to produce income?


No


Is the item shiny?


Is it a mail-order bride?




HOLY SHIT. YOU GUESSED IT!! I lent my mail-order $20K Russian bride to my friend and now he won't return her. That guy is a fooking dick-head.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:02:58 PM EST
[#45]
Quoted:
If the item can't produce income, then I don't know why you lent it.

It sounds like you discovered she has a penis, and won't return the ring.


OMG it is a ring.

I get it now.

It was a gift... You didn't lend it.

Indian giver. < - Is this racist? I suck at political correctness... Sorry.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:04:07 PM EST
[#46]
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:06:52 PM EST
[#47]
For you TX folks, are you saying that there is no such thing as embezzlement in TX?
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:08:40 PM EST
[#48]
You know, if you happen to come into posession of your own property you can't be charged with theft of property you own.
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:11:17 PM EST
[#49]
Link Posted: 4/30/2011 2:12:17 PM EST
[#50]
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