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Posted: 10/26/2006 6:38:19 AM EST
Some time next year I am considering a 9mm AR for my wife. She is both recoil and noise sensitive, and when I took her out to shoot her SIG 228, she only put a couple rounds through it because it intimidated her (I put NO pressure on her to do this and instructed her well, working her up from a .22 to ger her used to the idea). I figured I'd get a 9mm AR for plinking, for the hey of it (I shot a FA 9mm AR and it was fun, so I'd use this one as well), that she could use too, with the added benefit of it familiarizing her with the manual of arms of the 5.56mm ARs.

I know there is a pistol-caliber AR forum here but wanted opinions on WHETHER to get one or not, from the "Hive Mind".

Also, who makes a good one? Bushmaster? RRA? (I've had positive experiences with both manufacturers, but the only one I KNOW makes a 9mm is Rock River...)

TIA
jim
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 6:39:17 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 6:40:34 AM EST
Get an UZI and send it to "m60joe" for a pci rail cutom made on the top cover for a Eotech/Aimpoint.

Link Posted: 10/26/2006 6:46:32 AM EST
Pros:
-Familiar Operation
-Parts availability
-Low Recoil
-Fairly inexpensive ammo

Cons:
-Mag Cost/Availability

That's just what I can think of off the top of my head. Others who are more experienced can probably expand on those.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 6:54:24 AM EST
Is the recoil from a 9mm AR much different than a 5.56 AR?

I've never given it much thought since the 5.56 seems so mild.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 6:56:09 AM EST
Something else you may want to think about is building an upper in 300-221. You can get muzzle velocities/bullet weights down to the 9mm range, but with much higher sectional density and ballistic coefficient in your bullets. It also uses standard AR mags. The downside is that ammo is a reloading-only proposition.

I've been thinking about a 300-221 SBR with a can. That would be sweet.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 6:57:33 AM EST
Big pro is availability of ammo, you can get 9mm almost everywhere.

Negatives are expensive mags, and the fact that some must have modified hammer to work.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:02:10 AM EST
Use an Olympic upper and you eliminate the expensive mag problem. STEN mags with an adapter.

I have a Colt 9mm and an Oly 9mm. While the Colt is my favorite, the Oly does just fine and is very accurate.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:03:04 AM EST
The price of ammo will damn near zero out the increased magazine cost.

9mm AR's are a lot of fun and perfect for home defense.

Why I recommend a 9mm AR for HD:
-32 rounds
-Quick reload ability
-Reduced noise/blast/flash
-According to the Box O' Truth, less fear of overpenetration
-Easy to attach a light and optic (a must for shooting in the dark)
-Compact
-Low recoil which means faster follow-up shots and easy double-taps

Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:04:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2006 7:05:50 AM EST by EvoPsych]
If I was gonna go the 9mm carbine route...I'd just get a newer Beretta CX-4 Storm and a bunch of 20 round 92 mags.

It's the poor mans MP-5 and make a great "Wife weapon".
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:04:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By TheCynic:
Is the recoil from a 9mm AR much different than a 5.56 AR?

I've never given it much thought since the 5.56 seems so mild.


Yeah well, I figured putting a shoulder arm in her hands would make the 9mm more palatable. She's very recoil and noise-sensitive.

Us manly men who have been shooting for 30 years shoot the AR and say "that's it? That's what all the hubbub is about?"

I just want to have a fun plinker for both of us. I will probably put a red dot on it with the same BUIS as my Ars should I get one.

The mag thing is troubling but I've spent big $$$ on mags before ("pre-ban" Para -Ord mags during the ban ) and lived.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:05:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By Gunslinger808:
Big pro is availability of ammo, you can get 9mm almost everywhere.

Negatives are expensive mags, and the fact that some must have modified hammer to work.


Just wondering which don't need a modified hammer? I'd just buy the upper and use it on my .223 lower.... that will work right... sorry for the hijack
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:08:07 AM EST
Pros:

good excuse to buy a new gun for yourself

looks cool

easy to handle

cons:

expensive gun

expensive mags

looks evil / not a ladies gun , too intimidating

maybe she would like a Ruger PC9 better? looks cuter, less intimidating, lower cost, cheap mags, easy handling, low recoil, short stock
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:11:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2006 7:11:26 AM EST by Cypher214]

Originally Posted By YaMaMa:

Originally Posted By Gunslinger808:
Big pro is availability of ammo, you can get 9mm almost everywhere.

Negatives are expensive mags, and the fact that some must have modified hammer to work.


Just wondering which don't need a modified hammer? I'd just buy the upper and use it on my .223 lower.... that will work right... sorry for the hijack


All AR's need a 9mm hammer and buffer, unless there's something new that I don't know about.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:12:08 AM EST
Pros:
- you can shoot it at an indoor pistol range
- cheaper ammo
- better sound suppression if you go that route

Cons:
- reduced range

Not sure what else.

Have you considered a .22LR conversion for the wife instead?
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:12:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By TheCynic:
Is the recoil from a 9mm AR much different than a 5.56 AR?

I've never given it much thought since the 5.56 seems so mild.


Yeah well, I figured putting a shoulder arm in her hands would make the 9mm more palatable. She's very recoil and noise-sensitive.

Right. I was just saying that the recoil from a 9mm pistol is WAY different than the recoil from a shoulder arm. She may be more willing to shoot a 5.56 AR since she would have more control over it. The women that I have taken shooting perfer shoulder arms because their wrists, generally, are much weaker and the recoil seems more to them than us.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:12:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
All AR's need a 9mm hammer and buffer, unless there's something new that I don't know about.


My Colt and Oly BOTH use regular AR hammers and buffers. NO problems whatsoever.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:15:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2006 7:18:46 AM EST by YaMaMa]

Originally Posted By operatorerror:

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
All AR's need a 9mm hammer and buffer, unless there's something new that I don't know about.


My Colt and Oly BOTH use regular AR hammers and buffers. NO problems whatsoever.


So a Colt or Oly 9mm upper will work with my .223 lower w/o any changes? + mag well
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:18:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By YaMaMa:

Originally Posted By operatorerror:

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
All AR's need a 9mm hammer and buffer, unless there's something new that I don't know about.


My Colt and Oly BOTH use regular AR hammers and buffers. NO problems whatsoever.


So a Colt or Oly 9mm upper will work with my .223 lower w/o any changes?


Works for me.

Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:18:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2006 7:21:47 AM EST by HK_DUDE]
Don't flame me here, but.....

If you guys can all get over the name "Promag" you will find that mags are cheap and they work perfect for most people.

$11-$15 each is cheap.....I hate the name too, but I like the fact that it works and it is cheap.

As you were............

Added....you could just buy and use the promags, but don't tell anyone. Buy 1 colt mag for pictures.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:19:44 AM EST
I don't think the recoil from a 9mm AR is less than the a 5.56, it's just different.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:22:39 AM EST
Very fun to shoot and you can take it to the pistol range. It usually turns heads as everyone else is shooting handguns (naturally). I thought I'd regret having one but it turns out that it's one of the best 'gun decisions' I have ever made.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:23:00 AM EST
I just don't see the point in shooting a handgun round out of a rifle or carbine platform. I have never shot an 9mm AR, but the 5.56mm AR already has little recoil.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:23:04 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:23:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By MudBug:
I don't think the recoil from a 9mm AR is less than the a 5.56, it's just different.


What about muzzle blast? that's a biggie.

Once I get her past the "intimidated by noise" stage ... which I hope to get her past, anyway ... she'll probably be fine to shoot an M4gery. I'm not one of those guys who gives her a .357 magnum to shoot on the first day out.

She's shot my .22lr Ciener conversion for a 1911 and liked it enough for us to pick her up a .22lr Beretta... But I want her to have something more substantial to defend herself with should the need arise.

Trust me, I've been (politely) cajoling her to at least learn to shoot since I first met her 15 years ago.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:24:06 AM EST
I also would love a 9mm AR, but if you opt out, another option that fits this niche is the M1 Carbine - most women I know find it to be less intimidating and I think they are fun plinkers as well.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:26:55 AM EST
The only negative in my opinion is they get very dirty, very quickly. The positives far outway the negatives for me.

P.S. The child in me wants to add that they bump easy.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:29:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By BookHound:
Everyone who shot my 9mm SBR agreed it was worse than a .223 AR in similar configuration. Lots of variables to it though.

Mark


The 9mm AR I shot was a Class III SBR ... the muzzle blast wasn't HUGE but it was noticeable. I'd be getting a 16" barrel and was thinking it would mitigate the blast slightly.

Let's face it, guys (not just you BookHound but I'm springing off your post) ... 87% of my "battle" here is perceptions. She perceives that when she pulls the trigger, there will be a huge fireball and big recoil. I just need to get her more trigger time with the .22lr pistols to get her used to it, then I can slowly move her up to the 9mm. But getting her to the range is like me saying "want to go get a pap smear?" or "HEY! Let's regrout the tub!".

I am simply hoping that if I can get something in her hands that doesn't buck too bad OR have a lot of muzzle blast, she'll pick it up easier. If I can expand my collection in doing so, WE ALL WIN.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:30:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By EBKOBRA45:
I also would love a 9mm AR, but if you opt out, another option that fits this niche is the M1 Carbine - most women I know find it to be less intimidating and I think they are fun plinkers as well.


Great point. I have one and she's hefted it - it's perfect for her size... Have to get her out to the range with it some time.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:30:03 AM EST
I have two 9mm AR Uppers
One is Oly and has functioned flawlessly since it was purchased... What it has not functioned with is the various STEN mags... Each mag required a bit of massaging to work. Different Mag Block from SNS also helped this... except every mag needs a slight bit of work to work with that!

Second is a CMMG 9mm Upper
This one is colt style, I have used nothing except Waffle Promags which are quite inexpensive and they work fine... I initially used an RRA block which did not function.
Use the HAHN block.... I have also used a Beta C in it and it works fine.
No special buffer or hammer needed. Bolt Carrier is weighted and Ramped.

Pros? You can shoot them at any range that allows Centerfire Pistol.
Ammunition is nearly as cheap as 22
They get looks at the range.
They are fun to shoot

Cons?
Well specific mags. Either system
Adapter blocks Either system
Some require other than stock parts in the lower.

I enjoy both of mine when I hit the range....
But I prefer my 5.56 variant
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:33:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2006 7:34:12 AM EST by Wave]
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:34:58 AM EST
You might consider just getting a suppressor for you M4. I am a big fan of the M1 carbine too. My wife and kids like mine and it is no joke with hollowpoints.
I had a 9mm AR years ago. It was cool and you can shoot lead bullets out of it since it is straight blowback, but if you are going to have an AR you might as well have a 223 since it is more powerful.
I keep saying I am going to get a Beretta Storm but still haven't.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:38:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2006 7:40:39 AM EST by efpeter]
double post.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:40:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
They are a fun toy. The biggest downside is the price of magazines.


CProducts is about to release 9mm AR mags. Much better price tag.

I have been picking up bits and pieces for a 9mm from the EE, whenever they come up cheap. Still waiting on the mags before I get too caught up in finishing it.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 7:49:38 AM EST
My wife is very noise and recoil sensitive as well. Once she tried my MP5 she liked it even more than her suppressed Walther P22.

I cant really explain why she likes it more, since it is louder and does have more recoil, but she says that it gives her more to hold on to. She also told me that she likes it more because with a pistol all the weight is being held at arms length, and a carbine the weight is much closer to the body.

A suppressor alone will not fix the issue with the AR either, because my wife prefers to shoot the MP5 without the can when firing offhand, its the weight issue again. She does not like having to use her non firing hand to manipulate the safety of the HK, her hands are just too small to do it otherwise though, the 9mm AR would be easier with someone of her hand size to manipulate.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 8:11:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By BookHound:
Everyone who shot my 9mm SBR agreed it was worse than a .223 AR in similar configuration. Lots of variables to it though.

Mark


+1

I agree, it all depends on how you have it set up.

It isn't good to make generalizations like this, it all depends on what you choose.


For example, I've shot a Colt 635 that kicked a lot more than a 10.5 AR-15 or for that matter, my HK53.

It depends on the buffer weight, ammunition, barrel length, overall weight, ect.

There's stuff out here today that can make it go either way.



Link Posted: 10/26/2006 8:16:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By Hrd2thecore:
My wife is very noise and recoil sensitive as well. Once she tried my MP5 she liked it even more than her suppressed Walther P22.

I cant really explain why she likes it more, since it is louder and does have more recoil, but she says that it gives her more to hold on to. She also told me that she likes it more because with a pistol all the weight is being held at arms length, and a carbine the weight is much closer to the body.

A suppressor alone will not fix the issue with the AR either, because my wife prefers to shoot the MP5 without the can when firing offhand, its the weight issue again. She does not like having to use her non firing hand to manipulate the safety of the HK, her hands are just too small to do it otherwise though, the 9mm AR would be easier with someone of her hand size to manipulate.


I think most people would prefer to shoot an MP5 over a P22...


If only I could afford one in FA!




An MP5 is a lot easier to control than a Colt 635 on FA and kicks less on SA.


If she doesn't mind semi-auto, you might look into building an HK kit gun if it is within your price range. You can always convert it to full auto with a sear and you don't need to go with the SBR option if you don't want to....


If you're interested, you should go to HKPRO.com, find a kit, buy a receiver, and have a good HK smith put it together for you...
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 8:18:24 AM EST
I've got an Oly setup. I have no complaints about it, pretty accurate, ammo is cheap, mags are cheap, works fine with my regular 5.56 bushy and stag lowers no parts swaps were needed in them. Its been pretty reliable to me even shooting cheap dirty ammo.

That said I'm probably going to sell it cause I want to do a USC to UMP conversion and dont need 2 9mm carbines.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 8:21:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By F4Squid:
I've got an Oly setup. I have no complaints about it, pretty accurate, ammo is cheap, mags are cheap, works fine with my regular 5.56 bushy and stag lowers no parts swaps were needed in them. Its been pretty reliable to me even shooting cheap dirty ammo.

That said I'm probably going to sell it cause I want to do a USC to UMP conversion and dont need 2 9mm carbines.


USC is .45 last time i checked
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 8:21:52 AM EST
I'm thinking about getting one for my wife as a SHTF rifle. She doesn't shoot much so I need to get her to the range to spend some time with an 5.56 before spending the money.

She shot my 5.56 AK a few weeks ago and said it really beat her up. The butt in the rifle is narrower than an AR. So that didn't help. She also complained about the weight of that plus my M4. Both weigh under 7.5 lbs empty. If she doesn't like the recoil of a medium weight rifle, she sure isn't going to like a light weight.

I'm looking at a Bushmaster Carbon 16. It weighs less and don't need a mag well adaptor. With a good supply of Promags and the soon to be released C-Products mags it should be ready to go. I shoot 9mm in IPSC so I always have plenty of 9mm ammo on hand.

I also think blast is part of the problem. The truth is that 16" is too short for 223/5.56 to burn all the powder. Actually 20 inches is minimal, 22 or 24 is better.

My biggest complaint with 9mm is the lack of power. It's weak at the muzzle and gets worse quickly. I also don't like the idea of a weapon that can't go at least 1000 rounds without being cleaned.

I've considered 300 Whisper. Model 1 has cheap uppers and I don't need to buy new mags. But the idea of forming and annealing 1000 pieces of brass is daunting.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 8:28:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By falaholic1:


USC is .45 last time i checked


Thought it came in 9/40/45? I'm pretty sure I saw .40 in a local shop. Doesn't really matter either way I should of said I dont need 2 pistol caliber carbines.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 8:31:11 AM EST
I had the same problem with my girlfriend, doesn't care for noise/recoil.
Used to have a colt 9mm ar and she really liked to shoot it as the noise factor is way low, low enough that hearing protection is almost optional. Recoil is a little on the harsh side for a weapon of it's size but no way is it unpleasant.
Sold the colt and bought a HK94. Recoil on the 94 is much improved over the AR platform and for some reason the report is milder. She loves to shoot it and now asks when we are going shooting again.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 8:43:11 AM EST
Build her a 9mm AR then, SBR it and then buy a suppressor for it.

This is by far the funnest gun I own, and worth every penny.

Link Posted: 10/26/2006 8:48:02 AM EST
They are FUN. That was the only reason I needed.

Link Posted: 10/26/2006 8:53:53 AM EST
An ar15 does not have that much recoil.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 8:58:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By Szurgot:
They are FUN. That was the only reason I needed.

img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/rjszurgot/DSC00019.jpg


That is sweet! Specs please!
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 8:59:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By opti12206:
An ar15 does not have that much recoil.


To most people it doesn't. But you get someone that is scared, not used to shooting, excited, adrenaline pumping, etc.... The perception is that it is worse than it really is. Therefore they don't like it......so they won't shoot.


I'd get a .22 conversion for an AR. Oly has them for somewhere around $150. That way she gets used to shooting an AR. All you have to do is change out the bolt carrier.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 9:01:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By opti12206:
An ar15 does not have that much recoil.


of course it doesn't.

But I'm not going to just tell my wife - a loving, adorable, caring yet stubborn woman of about 5'4" and 120lbs - "Suck it up and shoot the rifle" because that approach is guaranteed to make her HATE it.

That's why I'm angling for this approach. Plus I get a toy when she (hopefully) "graduates" to a higher power system.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 9:05:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By Szurgot:
They are FUN. That was the only reason I needed.

img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/rjszurgot/DSC00019.jpg


That is sweet! Specs please!


My first build

Lauer custom lower made by LMT
ACE shorty stock
Stag LPK
RRA 9mm buffer & hammer
Hahn dedicated mag block
RRA upper
MI rear sight
MI midlength 2 pc rails
ADCO cut the barrel down and perm attached a phoenix FH
tangodown VG
ergo sure grip pistol grip
tac mag catch
TAG one point sling
OD alumahyde on the stock


All I have to add now is a eotech, Santa is going to bring me one if I am good
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 9:12:33 AM EST
Sweet setup Szurgot!
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 9:17:59 AM EST
Ive shot both. Side by side. Both in semi and in full auto. The 9mm has a different feeling recoil. More sluggish and to me harder hitting. I'm recoil sensitive and I can tell the difference, to me the 9mm recoils more. Perhaps the AR gas platform doesnt handle the 9mm round as well as its intended .223 round?

The idea of a suppressor sounds great on a .223 AR, even better if you get it SBR'ed!
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