User Panel
Posted: 8/25/2004 1:16:46 PM EDT
Poll coming.
I have. I was sitting the desk one night in the Fuels Contol Center when the Weather line rang. Picked it up and it was a weather report stating that we had thunder storms within three miles. SOP was to shut down all fuel movement on the base when we had thunder storms within three miles so I had 5 trucks out on the line that I had shut down and return to the Fuels section. About 5 minutes later one of the guys at the aircraft maitenance control center calls me wanting to know why I shut down the refuels. I asked him if they had gotten the weather report over the weather line and he said "yes". I told him that was why I shut down the refuel operations...we had thunderstorms within three miles! His reply was that the weather report said we had thunder storms within three miles and said nothing about lightning and that the regulations said we were to shut down when we had lightning within three miles, nothing about thunder storms. Then he demanded I send the trucks back out. I told him it was going to take more than his TSgt.(E-6) stripes to make me obey that order. I was an E-4 at the time. I few minutes later, a Captain calls me and orders me to send the fuel trucks back out. I refused and informed him I was calling my Chief. He went off on me and I just hung up. As I was calling the Chief waking him, he called back screaming into the phone. When the Chief answered I just said, "Evening Chief, Sweep here sir. Listen to this." And held the two phones up to each other, ear piece to mouth piece for about 10 seconds. Long story short, Chief called our Colonel, Colenel called the base commander, didn't ever hear from that captain again and didn't hear from the TSgt for about 3 months after that. In the end, the weather reports there after had to report, "Thunder storms producing lightning withing three miles". |
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Uh, what does he think CAUSES thunder? Duh. Lightening. The 2 go hand in hand. |
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tough call. mine wasnt at all that intresting. it went away fast too.
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I don't know that you refused to follow an illegal order.
An illegal order is one that violates the UCMJ, or treaties. IE, beat those prisoners, or not feeding prisoners, use hollowpoint ammo.........................etc. You had someone order you to disregard a policy, or post order. Not sure that goes "illegal". Fortunately you were using common sense, and following established policy, not to mention having a guy with a whole bunch of rockers and chevrons who backed up your call, and made sure others did too. |
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Was never given an illegal order. Plenty of STUPID orders, but no illegal ones.
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Ditto. When I was an E-3 I reamed an E-6 up and down (I was a prior service retread with a pumpkin patch). He was a one man goat fuck and did something stupid. No one said shit to me about it, either. But sleeping in one hour increments, four hours a day for three weeks will do that to you. |
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Refused several orders... don't know whether they were lawful or not; but they were certainly stupid and the junior officers issuing them had fucked up and put themselves in a position where there wasn't much they could do if I did refuse them - so I did.
I was also followed orders to the letter on some occasions even though it was apparent that doing so would result in a huge mess that would draw the attention of the entire command. There are just some officers that deserve that kind of obedience. |
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Well i have never been in the Military..... Yet
but my dad whas in the navy and he did have a NCO come up to him and demanded he cary a sidearm, now my father whas a corpsman so there fore he did not need and whas not requierd to cary a sidearm, so the NCO files a report demanding that he cary a sidearm the captin read it and threw it in his trash can, so my father puts in the NCO's medical report "Pain in intestines/stomich espesaly after eating" so they pumped some stuff in his gut and lower intestens to make the suposed hole show up on the X-Ray, the NCO dident walk straght for a week |
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I was never given an unlawful order. Had I been, I would not hesitate to refuse. The only exception to that is combat - if the result of my refusal would endanger the lives of my fellow troopers.
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By the way. That was a good call Sweep. If you had obeyed those orders you could have ended up with UCMJ action against you (along with that O3 and E6) if lightening struck.
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Yup. Had a BN XO who wanted me to "clean up" the AMSS report so our operational readiness rate would look good.
It looked bad, because we were not getting and money for repair parts, and he didn't like that. Didn't matter there was a reason it looked bad. He first hinted that I should go back and double check it all. I knew what he wanted, so I did... and found two chainsaws that were down and had been reported as up, so now the report was worse. That really pisssed him off. He kept telling me the OR rate needed to be over 80% and I needed to make it happen. His idea was for me to pull the vehicles off the system that we knew we were going to be getting rid of in 3 months. I asked if he had a disposition on the items so I could initiate the transfer... nope. I knew what he wanted, and kept being as tactfull as I could. Finally he said I was either going to cannabalize some vehicles to get some up or manipulate the data it took to make the report look better.... both against regulations. I finally said every vehicle down is down due to not receiving parts, and we had done all the controlled substitution of parts allowed, and whatever solution he had I needed in writing. He called my CO (I was on orders working through the week at the Reserve Center, CO was at his civilian job), CO calls the CW4 I work for, and Chief called the Major and laid into him...... told him if he ever encouraged one of his NCO's to falsify a report he would ensure his career was over. Major called me back and said just send the report foward as it is. Prior to that day I had considered going Warrant, and I made my mind up that day that it was what I wanted to do. |
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I have never been given an unlawfull order. but have danced around stupid ones
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Sure. Sort of. Demanded orders in writing from a Captain that was demanding we drive across a live impact area at MCAGCC in a soft-skinned HUMVEE, because he was late for a Regimental meeting during a CAX. I told him flat out 'that is dangerously stupid, Captain, and not worth risking Death for. We can drive around the hot zone and you'll only be 10mins late.' He insisted. I insisted on a record of his Idiocy, so that when they recovered our bodies it would be obvious whose fault it was. He backed down.
He bitched and rode my ass for the next three days, until my Top (I was a Corporal at the time) took me aside to ask 'what the hell is up with him and you?'. Told the Top, he immediately dragged me before th Bn CO, Bird Col., had me repeat the tale. The Captain's bitching ceased within the hour. |
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I was never given an un-lawful or illegal order.More than once really stupid ones.Many times it was "Sir,might I suggest a point that you may wish to consider."
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More than once.
I had a full bird Captain try to get me to install a telephone (a black non-secure circuit) next to a not-to-be-mentioned red (secure/secret) device for the one star admiral. I looked up the TEMPEST regulation on the matter and told the Chief-of-Staff that the book required a distance of "XX" feet which is where the phone was mounted. He about came completely unglued ranting and raving. I smiled and asked him if he would mind repeating his order either on paper or in front of a commissioned officer (my boss). The admiral came in during the "discussion" that followed and he agreed with me and said that he didn't know TEMPEST reg's were involved and that he wouldn't mind following them. Another time I put the entire aircraft carrier on a security alert shutting down the brow and releasing the hounds on a E-4 and a W-3. The E-4 refused to show ID while leaving the brow. My sentry asked him twice before getting the finger - he told me and I stopped the guy and asked him three times (required by regulations) to present an ID card. He refused so I called for my MAA's to detain him (stuff him and cuff him). The E-4 gets on his ship's walkie talkie and calls for the ship's bo'sunmate (a warrant officer 3) to come to his rescue. He takes it upon himself to interfere with the MAA's (who are armed only with batons and mace) and tells me to let his worker go, I say no, he continues towards the MAA's and it looks like he's going to lay hands on, so I release my weapons department brow watch upon the W3. The MAA's take the W3 down as a shotgun is pointed at his head. I call the OOD (officer of the deck) to come defuse the situation and to open the brows for bussiness. When the OOD arrives he has the MAA's release the W3 who charges at me at a pretty brisk pace and starts to tap me in the chest (he's about 6" and 50 pounds smaller than me), the OOD runs over graps the bo'sun and takes him off of me and starts chewing his ass up one side and down the other for interfering with the MAA's, the sentries, and me the JOOD. Too funny. So much drama for some little asshole not producing his ID card. The deck department had trouble with their ship's television system for a year after that. Their incoming outside telephone line never worked very well after that either. |
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Ever refuse to obey an unlawful order?
Hey, what gives here? This is a Catch 22. If I answer "No," that implies I obeyed an unlawful order if it was given to me. Allright allright, just joking. Nope, I never refused to obey an unlawful because I was never given an unlawful order. Good question, Sweep. |
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yeah - when did you stop beating your wife?
need to edit poll... never given an unlawful order? |
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Obviously a precedent needed to be set. I'm betting everyone eagerly produced their IDs after that! |
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Yeah, left that part out trying to keep it short. That was why I refused to obey the order and I mentioned to him what an idiot he was. What really cracked me up was after that the weather guys were reporting to us "Thunder storms producing lightning". The thunder doesn't produce the lightning, the lightning produces the thunder. |
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I always obey unlawful orders, with great enthusiasm. 'Let's do the village! Let's do the whole fuckin village!' is my motto, as it were. |
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Sweep, I think the order by the captain, stupid as it was, was perfectly lawful. You don't have the right to disobey a lawful, yet very risky, order. If you had disobeyed my order, I would have you prosecuted. (of course, I am very hesitant to throw orders around in the first place, and I REALLY hesitate when troop safety is on the line!) |
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That would depend on whos signature is on the regulation. A SOP or Regulation is a form of order, and if a O-5 signed it the O-3 doesn't have the authority to override it. |
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It was not a lawful order; per AFOSH STD 91-100 no aircraft maintanance or servicing will be performed when thunderstorms are within 5 miles and this is signed by the Secretary of the Air Force |
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That explains alot about you. |
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Thank you. Orders are orders and three months after the USS Cole which was on its way to my battle group was attacked we really weren't ready to take such things casually. The ship's CO routinely reminds the watch standers that everyone is to be checked coming and going - including him and the admiral. If someone slips past the watch team they get to stand the 0000 to 0400 watch as training. |
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Maybe you're right in the fact it might not have been an unlawful order, but it went against U.S. Air Force regulations. I remember when the guy told me he was a Technical Sgt. (E-6) and that he out ranked me. I told him, "Well, I see your TSgt. and raise you a Chief!". At that point though I had no intention of waking the Chief up over some ignorant TSgt. that didn't know where the sound of thunder originated from. Really didn't have a choice when the Capt. called and started chewing my ass. I think the Chief saw his Capt. Bars and raised him a Col. |
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I was driving a 998 on Okinawa from White Beach to MCAS after one long ass boat trip to and from Korea.
The thing was half full (half way up, way over the gate) with gear, and status boards on top. A zero wanted four troops to ride on top of the board, in hopes that the flap would hold them in. I said "No Sir, that's not safe." He called the duty driver to come and pick them up. When I was a invol army LE MP in germany I have quite a few tales. Officers about to be arrested tend to order you to let them go Then there was the time I yanked the USAEUR plates off a helo CO's POV right in front of the hanger at lunch time, with a large chunk of his unit looking on (expired plates). He tried to order me to stop. I stopped right after I got the plates, tagged it for the recovery truck, and put the bright orange sticker on the windshield. |
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Got the jest of the story, but what the hell is: TEMPEST? brow? MAA? OOD? JOOD? Damn Navy! |
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Changed the wording around to: "Ever been given an unlawful order that you refused to obey?" |
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Awesome damn pic! I've was on the flight line once at Tyndall AFB when lightning struck a ground on the flight line and it danced all the way up and down the tarmac. Scared the hell out me with 5,000 of JP-4 behind me in that R-9 fuel truck. |
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TEMPEST ... the non-secure name given to the program that reduces the electrical signatures - think emcon (emission control) and spy stuff. Brow - The ramp that runs from the pier to the quarterdeck (where the OOD stands) MAA - Masters At Arms - the ship's police force OOD - Officer of the Deck (sea)/Day (shore) - the senior officer in charge after the captain's gone. Handles all the watchstanding (guard duty) JOOD - Junior OOD - normally a mid-grade officer or senior enlisted in charge of the watch section (guards) for a four hour period. Nomally located on the quarterdeck to over see watch standards and to respond to emergencies (like a seagull shitting on the CO's car 15 minutes prior to his normal departure time). Landlubbers |
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Well, a 3 star general disagrees with you. I was told, through my Chief, by the General, that I did the right thing and I should be commended for not following the order by the Captian. If it had been you, giving me that order you wouldn't have prosecuted me. Don't know what exactly happened to the Capt., but I know the base commander was NOT pleased with his stupidity and he never worked in the aircraft maintenance control center again, a prestigious job for that career field. |
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That's an amazing pic! Thanks! |
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Almost had the OOD. I was thinking Officer On Duty. Wait a minute, shouldn't that be OOT(the)D? |
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Had a STGCS try to order me to gundeck maintence on an MK-116 firecontrol system. He threatened to take me to mast I threatened to go talk to the chief of staff of our DESRON who was our former XO and my sea daddy. That shut him up. After I got out my old LPO emailed saying that Senior had taken the whole workcenter to mast for gundecking the 116.
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Thats a Navy thing that I don't think I want to know about...I guess it does get lonely out at sea............ |
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You gotta love the total friggin losers they stuff in Job Control on an Air Force base, we used to get that kind of shit all the time. Nevermind the lightning, it really ain't -17 with a wind chill of -45, damnit everybody removes cowling in 45 mph gusts and on and on and on.
We had guys refuse to work in -45 wind chill without a heater even though they were ordered out there by a pinhead LT from Maint Control. He insisted it was 28 with no wind and we were lying about the weather. Much to our joy, our commander ordered him to accompany us to the plane and wait outside while we repaired the problem. It took an hour and we were dressed for it for the most part, we were numb but this guy had blue lips and was shivering and about to die. Weather reports got better in our neck of the woods as well. |
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no unlawful orders - but disobeyed about 10 stupid ones. hem
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Never had one unlawful oreder to refuse. The Commands I was in were pretty damn good in my opinion
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Only one....
It was stupid,I was a Medic and the CO was O.K. after I gave my reasons...( Soldiers Health & Welfare), He just did not know any better. |
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