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Posted: 9/10/2004 6:34:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/10/2004 6:35:25 AM EST by schv]
Ok, I'm tired of reading posts on this board who slam Police for doing there job. We all know there are bad Police Officers out there, just as there are bad doctors, teachers, ministers/clergy etc.

Lets go beyond quoting U.S. Supreme Court rulings, and even the Constitution(Eric the Hun, I'm looking in your direction) and have some constructive ideas about how todays Law Enforcement can deal with todays society.

Here is your chance to speak directly with a Police Officer who is asking for your opinions and suggestions.

Please try and keep your emotions and past dealings with Law Enforcement from influencing your suggestions. I fully intend to bring any valid suggestions to the rest of the Law Enforcement Community, via my position as an instructor at the local Police Academy.

As you will see, it is not as easy to be constructive as it is to be destructive.


Thanks to those who respond!!!!!
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:35:16 AM EST
Yeah, this thread won't devolve down into a complete cop bash. No thanks.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:35:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/10/2004 6:38:28 AM EST by schv]

Originally Posted By hielo:
Yeah, this thread won't devolve down into a complete cop bash. No thanks.



Negative response #1

If your going to be negative or simply bash Police, don't bother posting. There are other threads for that, and other ways to run up your "post" total!!!!
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:37:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By schv:

Originally Posted By hielo:
Yeah, this thread won't devolve down into a complete cop bash. No thanks.



Negative response #1



But not of LEO's, just your kinda dumb thread.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:38:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:38:21 AM EST
My idea is nothing new. It's called "Get the cops out the cruiser and make them walk a beat". Especially in large cities, the cops seem to only be around when bad things happen, and get associated with such. They are seen as an invading force.

In the days of the walking beat cop, they got to know the people, the people got to know them, and they were better able to keep an eye on the neighborhood. The drug dealers certainly won't be hanging out on the corner if they knew Officer John Doe was going to be around every 20 minutes.

Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:39:31 AM EST
Here's a suggestion:

When they tell you to confiscate the guns, DON'T.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:40:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/10/2004 6:52:24 AM EST by schv]

Originally Posted By USMC2111:
My idea is nothing new. It's called "Get the cops out the cruiser and make them walk a beat". Especially in large cities, the cops seem to only be around when bad things happen, and get associated with such. They are seen as an invading force.

In the days of the walking beat cop, they got to know the people, the people got to know them, and they were better able to keep an eye on the neighborhood. The drug dealers certainly won't be hanging out on the corner if they knew Officer John Doe was going to be around every 20 minutes.




Thank You!! This is what I mean.


What you are advocating is "Community Policing" and it is very effective.
The only drawback is lack of manpower. I am fortunate enough to work in a city that has enough officers on duty at any given time, that I can get out of the Patrol car and take some time to get to know the citizens, watch a highschool football game, attend a car show etc.

Unfortunately, a lot of Departments do not have enough officers on duty to be able for them to spend the time getting to know the people. They are forced to run from call to call, rarely having time to even stop and eat lunch/dinner!!

Your also correct about the drug dealers moving out of areas that are heavily patrolled, but the key word is "move", they simply go down a block, or in a best case scenario, move to another town.

How far can I go to get rid of drug dealers? In your opinion, where is the line between effective Law Enforcement and a Nazi style Police State?

Thanks again sir!!
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:49:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/10/2004 6:52:47 AM EST by ktm500]
Require all police stations to reduce down to a small handfull of managers. They then are required to draw from the local militia (local militia meaning all able bodied people in the town).
Police duty will be required similar to the way that Jury duty is required. The managers will be able to assign people to jobs based on their skills.
Police can have full time individuals who are specialists to deal with situations requiring more experienced people.
Everyone will be required to be trained in law enforcement. This will make it necessary to simplify the laws, and have all people know the law.
Advantages : This will give everyone a new perspective, since they will all now have first hand knowledge of what police have to deal with. This will also develope a new respect for the job. It will also increase every police stations resources. The tax payers will also not have to pay a premium to have an officer on overtime to stand around a construction crew, while he could be doing more usefull things.


Imagine it as Andy Taylor with a whole town of deputies.
ktm500
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:52:13 AM EST
Never join a CAGE unit. That's my only critique.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:56:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/10/2004 7:11:49 AM EST by schv]

Originally Posted By POWER03:
Here's a suggestion:

When they tell you to confiscate the guns, DON'T.



For your piece of mind, ALL OFFICERS in my deparment, and all that I have spoke with EVER, have ALL said they would NEVER confiscate firarms from law abiding citizens. By law abiding citizen they mean non-felon/drug dealer etc., not someone who has violated an ill passed law banning private ownership of firearms.

Rest assured 99% of all street-level police think like you and the rest of the folks on this board!!!
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 6:59:00 AM EST
SCHV,

I don't think having cops walking the neighborhood would make anyone call out "Police State". Now if they start going into private back yards, peering in windows, searching every passerby, then we have a problem.

Link Posted: 9/10/2004 7:04:01 AM EST
I hate the random enforcement of traffic laws. There is no rhyme or reason for when you are going to get a ticket. Sometimes you will be going 20 over, and they let you pass or stop you and give a warning. Another time you will be going 8 over and they give you a ticket. It seems very arbitrary. Also, if cops are going to enforce the traffic laws, it would be great if they didn't routinely ignore them.

It also bugs me how cops are always so suspicous. Just kidding of course, I realize that is a good thing in that job.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 7:11:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By ktm500:
Require all police stations to reduce down to a small handfull of managers. They then are required to draw from the local militia (local militia meaning all able bodied people in the town).
Police duty will be required similar to the way that Jury duty is required. The managers will be able to assign people to jobs based on their skills.
Police can have full time individuals who are specialists to deal with situations requiring more experienced people.
Everyone will be required to be trained in law enforcement. This will make it necessary to simplify the laws, and have all people know the law.
Advantages : This will give everyone a new perspective, since they will all now have first hand knowledge of what police have to deal with. This will also develope a new respect for the job. It will also increase every police stations resources. The tax payers will also not have to pay a premium to have an officer on overtime to stand around a construction crew, while he could be doing more usefull things.


Imagine it as Andy Taylor with a whole town of deputies.
ktm500




Your heart is in the right place but, I don't know how the people would respond to being required to serve as police officers. Also, I spent 800 hours in the Police Academy, learning law, use of force, crisis negotiation, shoot/no shoot firearms training, etc. It would be very hard, even with simplifed laws, for the townspeople to walk into the job without any training........

Unfortunately, almost every situation that we as police officers deal with, has the potential to become a serious matter, legally, morally, ethically, and tactically.

I am not saying that non police trained people couldn't handle the situations, some if fact would be better than the currently trained officers!!!!

And on a side note, I love the Andy Griffith show, I wish that the people of society really treated their law officers the way the people of Mayberry treated Andy and Barney!!!!
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 7:17:05 AM EST
I have one major question and or complaint.


Concerning when you pull someone over for a minor moving violation, like a light out, minor moving violation, paperwork, or whatever. We all know this is a tactic used to talk to the person and view what is inside their car.
I have no problem with this tactic.

However, when the LEO approaches and the drivers asks why he is pulled over the LEO often deliveres a "white" lie. The LEO gives a "technical" reply like: "Well, I saw you didn't turn your turn singal on back there."...maybe after the LEO followed the guy for awhile making him nervous....when it is obvious he just wanted "any" reason to pull that car over.


Please don't do this!

Just say: " Well, we patrol the streets and you looked like you were up to something, and you didn't turn on your blinker. SO I pulled you over."

At least thats the truth!!



Sgatr15
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 7:19:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By USMC2111:
My idea is nothing new. It's called "Get the cops out the cruiser and make them walk a beat". Especially in large cities, the cops seem to only be around when bad things happen, and get associated with such. They are seen as an invading force.



AGreed, althought I think a bike would be much better.


Now I must say this. My above experience is related to a LARGE city. I lived in a small 40k city for a year and the LEOs there are VERY differant.


SGat1r5
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 7:21:34 AM EST
Mine was admittedly extreme and improbable.

ktm500
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 7:23:04 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 7:25:17 AM EST
Just ask the to remember, policing is not revenuing.

And always be honest. If they have to fake or manufacture evidence to get a shitbag off the street, even if EVERYONE knows it's a shitbag, don't lie.

Just keep an eye on him and he will screw up again.

And wear his vest, everytime a cop gets killed by a firearm, it gives us all a black eye.

TXL
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 7:26:10 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 7:30:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/10/2004 7:34:31 AM EST by schv]

Originally Posted By imposter:
I hate the random enforcement of traffic laws. There is no rhyme or reason for when you are going to get a ticket. Sometimes you will be going 20 over, and they let you pass or stop you and give a warning. Another time you will be going 8 over and they give you a ticket. It seems very arbitrary. Also, if cops are going to enforce the traffic laws, it would be great if they didn't routinely ignore them......




I agree this is a problem.............It is called "Officer Discretion". I personally only issue tickets to about half of the cars I stop, some officers in my Department not only issue every car, but issue multiple citations on the same stop.

The problem is, if every cop was like me......people would disobey more traffic laws, more often, if more officers were like the other guy......police would really have a public relations problem!!!

As far as disobeying the traffic laws as an officer..................there is no excuse. I find myself making rolling stops, no signal, speeding, etc. at 3:00am in the morning when no one is around......
it's not right but...........

The only defense to some of the speeding without lights and siren is:

A. Trying to get to a call quickly that does not dictate "code 3", such as a fellow officer makes a traffic stop of a van with 5 drunk, skinhead, nazi, biker, cop killer types, with active felony warrants in it, and you(his only back-up) are 2 miles away. He hasn't called for help yet, so theres no legal reason to run "code", but your pretty sure he is going to need some help, gotta get there as quick as you can!!! or, little old lady hears something outside, but sice no one had tried to break in and harm her it does not justify a "code run", but you still want to get there as quick as possible.

B. A lot of times a vehicle will pass you speeding, etc., and you need to catch up with it so you can intiate a traffic stop, but if you turn your lights on as soon as he passes you, he will either run/duck down, or stop in an unsafe location, i.e curve, bridge etc. So you speed in order to catch him, then run his plate(to make sure you are not pulling over a car full of armed robbers who just killed 30 officers in the next town over) and then when you get to a safe location, turn on your lights an stop the person.

C. If your on the Interstate and are keeping up with the flow of traffic, your speeding!!! So if your are trying to move through traffic, to look for a vehicle etc. then you are really speeding!!!

I wish there were an answer to this problem..........I think it just comes down to a combination of a few officers who abuse their power, and a lot of citizens that do not understand our job.

Thank you very much for your input!!!
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 7:43:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By EricTheHun



That you and your family and loved ones are CITIZENS who must live in this country along with the rest of your FELLOW CITIZENS!



Eric The(HelpfulFellowCitizen)Hun




I will........ if you remember that your Local, State, and Federal Law Enforcement Officers are YOUR fellow citizens and neighbors, and not a nameless, faceless, evil government entity.


WE ARE NOT THE ENEMY!!!!(o.k. some of us are pretty damn close but...)Please try to work with us so we can both make OUR communities and country, a better place to live.



(not directed at you personally, as I'm sure your post was not directed at me only)



Thank You!!
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 7:58:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
I have one major question and or complaint.


Concerning when you pull someone over for a minor moving violation, like a light out, minor moving violation, paperwork, or whatever. We all know this is a tactic used to talk to the person and view what is inside their car.
I have no problem with this tactic.

However, when the LEO approaches and the drivers asks why he is pulled over the LEO often deliveres a "white" lie. The LEO gives a "technical" reply like: "Well, I saw you didn't turn your turn singal on back there."...maybe after the LEO followed the guy for awhile making him nervous....when it is obvious he just wanted "any" reason to pull that car over.


Please don't do this!

Just say: " Well, we patrol the streets and you looked like you were up to something, and you didn't turn on your blinker. SO I pulled you over."

At least thats the truth!!



Sgatr15



O.k., but when I ask if you have any illegal weapons or narcotics in the car, you have to tell me the truth as well!!!

It could go like this........POLICE"Sir, the reason I stopped you today is, I observed your camoflage pick-up truck with the 'Fuck the Police' and 'Legalize it' bumper stickers, coming from a known drug dealers house. So I followed you until you committed a minor traffic offense. May I see your license and Insurance please?.........CITIZEN"Well sir, since you were honest with me.........I don't have a drivers license, it was revoked years ago when I killed that gal driving drunk.......and I haven't had insurance since I was 18 years old!!!!! POLICE"Ok, well I smell a little marijuana, you don't have anything illegal in the truck do you? CITIZENAW..Hell, you got me.....I have 200lbs of weed just smuggled across the border last night,...... yeah it's in the fake gas tank under the truck!!! pretty smart ,huh.......Oh, and I have a fully automatic M-4 that I stole from the local Army Base......yeah I was gonna use it to rob the First National bank later on today........after I got high of course!!


Is that what you meant!!!!!! (JUST KIDDING!!!!!)
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 8:06:52 AM EST
Please....keep 'em coming!!! This is very helpfull!!!

Thanks agains to all who have responded and all who will!!!
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 8:07:42 AM EST
How about this: Stand up for the rights of law-abiding citizens and stop letting appointed policiticans -- police chiefs -- speak "for you" in the public arena.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 8:09:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By USMC2111:
...In the days of the walking beat cop, they got to know the people, the people got to know them, and they were better able to keep an eye on the neighborhood. The drug dealers certainly won't be hanging out on the corner if they knew Officer John Doe was going to be around every 20 minutes.



+1

I don't bash cops, but I do try to offer constructive criticism, and do offer up the Constitution occasionally (you do still take an oath, right?). If y'all want to take that as "anti-LEO" (tcsd), then talk to my dad and grandfather (both retired NJ LEO’s) - they might just disagree.

I'll take a stab at the original request.

My suggestions kind of relate back to the above quote, but a little more esoterically, and in no particular order of importance. They are also all related to one another, and in a word, come down to "attitude". Please don't take these suggestions as blanket statements, if they apply to you or your department, great, if they don't move on.

Suggestion 1: Get rid of the "us v. them” crap.

Many of us "civilians" know that you (LEO's) are just regular guys with an important and often dangerous job. We truly appreciate your guts, determination, sacrifice, and commitment, but we also understand that you put your pants on one leg at a time; just like us.

Don't get an attitude if we treat you with the respect that you deserve, but don't fall at your feet, swoon, and treat you as demigods.

Suggestion 2: Dispense with "Command Presence".

You're the guy with the gun, act like it. There's no good reason to stand there with your chest puffed out and your hands on your hips. Yeah, it might scare the BG's into compliance, and maybe it makes them think twice before doing something stupid, but it also creeps the hell out of normal folks.

On women officers it's just useless, unless you want to impress upon people that you are a butch dyke (no offence meant, but I call it like I see it).

Suggestion 3: Follow the rules, and be accountable.

I'm NOT talking civilian review boards (I have my own mixed feelings about that). What I mean is don't speed in excess, park where you want, cut in line at the grocery, grab a free cup of coffee at the 7-11, or anything else that might be construed as "Okay to do ‘cause I’m a cop, but not okay for the regular populace”, and expect your behavior to engender the good-will of the people you serve.

Suggestion 4: Avoid "office" politics like the plague.

Warning: non-specific, esoteric suggestion ahead!

The GG's know that some cops are pro-gun & conservative, and some aren’t. Don't get caught up in the politics game. You have a personal responsibility not to betray the public's trust. Period.

Whether the Chief wants you to or not is absolutely irrelevant, and that includes if it means your job. If not bowing to the prevailing political wind does mean you’ll lose your job, weigh your options carefully. By all means consider your family first, but you also might want to consider a move and/or a different career.

I weighed the options before deciding not to follow in dad and granddad career choice. It was hard to do, but I and the people of NJ are better off for it.

Suggestion 5: You have “discretion”. Use it.

By not doing so, you only reinforce a legitimate concern of the populace, namely; that they have to worry about the jot and tittle of every law that’s ever been written by some elected official or bureaucratic committee…and if they don’t, you’ll be there to bust them on it more often than not.

I’ll put it this way; don’t pull folks over for 57 in a 55 on a clear day with light traffic, just because you can. You didn’t nail a criminal, you created one.

Most important “suggestion” I can offer?

Remember always that you are a public servant, took an oath to uphold the Constitution, and act accordingly.

-FMD
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 8:11:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By schv:
O.k., but when I ask if you have any illegal weapons or narcotics in the car, you have to tell me the truth as well!!!




Actually, I don't expect you to believe me....at least not completely, after all, that's why you pulled me over.


If you pull someones over because they are in a bad neighborhood then just tell them. After that if you smell weed or alcohol everything changes and you kind of know at that point that the conversation will change based on your experience. But when you also met someone that is CLEARLY just a Joe Citizen doing nothing please use your experience also.


Thanks all I am saying....


SGatr15
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 8:11:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By schv:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
I have one major question and or complaint.


Concerning when you pull someone over for a minor moving violation, like a light out, minor moving violation, paperwork, or whatever. We all know this is a tactic used to talk to the person and view what is inside their car.
I have no problem with this tactic.

However, when the LEO approaches and the drivers asks why he is pulled over the LEO often deliveres a "white" lie. The LEO gives a "technical" reply like: "Well, I saw you didn't turn your turn singal on back there."...maybe after the LEO followed the guy for awhile making him nervous....when it is obvious he just wanted "any" reason to pull that car over.


Please don't do this!

Just say: " Well, we patrol the streets and you looked like you were up to something, and you didn't turn on your blinker. SO I pulled you over."

At least thats the truth!!



Sgatr15



O.k., but when I ask if you have any illegal weapons or narcotics in the car, you have to tell me the truth as well!!!

It could go like this........POLICE"Sir, the reason I stopped you today is, I observed your camoflage pick-up truck with the 'Fuck the Police' and 'Legalize it' bumper stickers, coming from a known drug dealers house. So I followed you until you committed a minor traffic offense. May I see your license and Insurance please?.........CITIZEN"Well sir, since you were honest with me.........I don't have a drivers license, it was revoked years ago when I killed that gal driving drunk.......and I haven't had insurance since I was 18 years old!!!!! POLICE"Ok, well I smell a little marijuana, you don't have anything illegal in the truck do you? CITIZENAW..Hell, you got me.....I have 200lbs of weed just smuggled across the border last night,...... yeah it's in the fake gas tank under the truck!!! pretty smart ,huh.......Oh, and I have a fully automatic M-4 that I stole from the local Army Base......yeah I was gonna use it to rob the First National bank later on today........after I got high of course!!


Is that what you meant!!!!!! (JUST KIDDING!!!!!)




That was a really funny smartass reply to a ridiculous suggestion. Are you sure you're a cop, I didn't know they had senses of humor. I thought a sense of humor was beat out of recruits in the police academy.

BTW, I really would like to see bicycle cops and cops walking beats in neighborhoods more. There are obvious safety risks in some really bad neighborhoods, but in those neighborhoods then the buddy systme could apply. I do believe that would humanize the police force a little more in the eyes of John Q. Public.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 8:16:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By USMC2111:
SCHV,

I don't think having cops walking the neighborhood would make anyone call out "Police State". Now if they start going into private back yards, peering in windows, searching every passerby, then we have a problem.




I agree.

Say your walking the beat, and you smell Anhydrous Ammonia, or another common Meth Lab chemical. As you know Meth Labs are extremely dangerous, would it be o.k. to then peek in a window, or enter a private back yard?

Currently it would be illegal for me in Missouri to do just that, I would have to knock on the front door and speak with the occupants(if willing) and then based on my observations, try an obtain a search warrant.*

I am not being sarcastic, I really want your opinion on this.

*Illegal, unless you are trained in Lab Recognition, then based on your training, you can make entry based on your observations, and honest belief that a Meth Lab exists..........usually does not happen due to fear of Lawsuits for an improper "observation".
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 8:16:27 AM EST
We need to quit appointing politicians to head the police force. The chief position should be left to those who have the most experience in that jurisdiction and be selected by the officers themselves, rather than a bunch of mostly uninformed people who believe all the white lies and crap that candidates spew when seeking election.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 8:22:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By schv:

Originally Posted By POWER03:
Here's a suggestion:

When they tell you to confiscate the guns, DON'T.



For your piece of mind, ALL OFFICERS in my deparment, and all that I have spoke with EVER, have ALL said they would NEVER confiscate firarms from law abiding citizens. By law abiding citizen they mean non-felon/drug dealer etc., not someone who has violated an ill passed law banning private ownership of firearms.

Rest assured 99% of all street-level police think like you and the rest of the folks on this board!!!



If you pulled me over for speeding 10mph over the limit, and somehow discovered that I had an illegal firearm in the car with me. (Say, carrying a concealed .45 illegally), would you ignore the gun law violation?
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 8:25:22 AM EST
So many great responses........but I have not slept yet, got off at 7 this morning, have to be back at 9 tonight.........Please keep posting, i will read and reply ASAP!!!

Thanks again, and I can say I am VERY IMPRESSED that it has not slid down the slippery slope that is "Police Threads" on this fine board!!!!
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 8:31:30 AM EST




I agree.

Say your walking the beat, and you smell Anhydrous Ammonia, or another common Meth Lab chemical. As you know Meth Labs are extremely dangerous, would it be o.k. to then peek in a window, or enter a private back yard?

Currently it would be illegal for me in Missouri to do just that, I would have to knock on the front door and speak with the occupants(if willing) and then based on my observations, try an obtain a search warrant.*

I am not being sarcastic, I really want your opinion on this.

*Illegal, unless you are trained in Lab Recognition, then based on your training, you can make entry based on your observations, and honest belief that a Meth Lab exists..........usually does not happen due to fear of Lawsuits for an improper "observation".



I think the procedure of having to knock on the front door, get a warrant, etc. is exactly how it should have to be done. Otherwise, the officer could peek in any window, suspicion or not, and then come up with a "Reason".

The whole idea is to protect the rights of citizens, not make catching criminals easier. The Founding Fathers were of the idea that "Tis' better that a 1000 guilty men go free, than 1 innocent man be imprisoned".
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 8:31:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:

Originally Posted By schv:

Originally Posted By POWER03:
Here's a suggestion:

When they tell you to confiscate the guns, DON'T.



For your piece of mind, ALL OFFICERS in my deparment, and all that I have spoke with EVER, have ALL said they would NEVER confiscate firarms from law abiding citizens. By law abiding citizen they mean non-felon/drug dealer etc., not someone who has violated an ill passed law banning private ownership of firearms.

Rest assured 99% of all street-level police think like you and the rest of the folks on this board!!!



If you pulled me over for speeding 10mph over the limit, and somehow discovered that I had an illegal firearm in the car with me. (Say, carrying a concealed .45 illegally), would you ignore the gun law violation?




Last one for today............Honestly it would depend on the reason. If you are a "Good Ol' Boy" who just forgot to take it out, or unload it, depending on the law.....then no.

If your are a gang bangin' G-Dawg thug, who calls me "cuz" and asks me questions like, "Yo, Dawg, why are you sweatin' me, yo..?"
I can guarantee that you will be arrested!!!!
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 8:34:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By schv:

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:

Originally Posted By schv:

Originally Posted By POWER03:
Here's a suggestion:

When they tell you to confiscate the guns, DON'T.



For your piece of mind, ALL OFFICERS in my deparment, and all that I have spoke with EVER, have ALL said they would NEVER confiscate firarms from law abiding citizens. By law abiding citizen they mean non-felon/drug dealer etc., not someone who has violated an ill passed law banning private ownership of firearms.

Rest assured 99% of all street-level police think like you and the rest of the folks on this board!!!



If you pulled me over for speeding 10mph over the limit, and somehow discovered that I had an illegal firearm in the car with me. (Say, carrying a concealed .45 illegally), would you ignore the gun law violation?




Last one for today............Honestly it would depend on the reason. If you are a "Good Ol' Boy" who just forgot to take it out, or unload it, depending on the law.....then no.

If your are a gang bangin' G-Dawg thug, who calls me "cuz" and asks me questions like, "Yo, Dawg, why are you sweatin' me, yo..?"
I can guarantee that you will be arrested!!!!



My reason would be" I carry everywhere and ignore the law against it. I think the law is shit and I have a right to defend myself.".

Link Posted: 9/10/2004 8:40:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
[My reason would be" I carry everywhere and ignore the law against it. I think the law is shit and I have a right to defend myself.".




And my response would be......"I think the part of the Constitution that deals with cruel and unusual punishment is 'shit, and I ingnore it'". And forever after you would have the scars to remember why we don't pick and choose the laws which we obey!!!!


Again Kidding!!!
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 8:44:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By schv:

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:

Originally Posted By schv:

Originally Posted By POWER03:
Here's a suggestion:

When they tell you to confiscate the guns, DON'T.



For your piece of mind, ALL OFFICERS in my deparment, and all that I have spoke with EVER, have ALL said they would NEVER confiscate firarms from law abiding citizens. By law abiding citizen they mean non-felon/drug dealer etc., not someone who has violated an ill passed law banning private ownership of firearms.

Rest assured 99% of all street-level police think like you and the rest of the folks on this board!!!



If you pulled me over for speeding 10mph over the limit, and somehow discovered that I had an illegal firearm in the car with me. (Say, carrying a concealed .45 illegally), would you ignore the gun law violation?




Last one for today............Honestly it would depend on the reason. If you are a "Good Ol' Boy" who just forgot to take it out, or unload it, depending on the law.....then no.

If your are a gang bangin' G-Dawg thug, who calls me "cuz" and asks me questions like, "Yo, Dawg, why are you sweatin' me, yo..?"
I can guarantee that you will be arrested!!!!



So do the black officers let the black guys who speak differently let them go and arrest the "Good Ol Boy"?

See, thats the problem. Too many laws lead to too much discretions which leads to unfair enforcement.

The traffic laws are huge revenue producers for many localities but they cause disrespect for the cop who enforces them, especially when quotas or 'historical' rates are applied. Usually its not the cops fault but he's the one using his discretion in handing a ticket to one and not another.

Is a $120 fine for a rolling stop at a rural intersection reasonable when every car does it but only one gets stopped? Happened to my friend last week. Cop pretty much apologized for writing the ticket.

Enforce the laws all the time and equally. Eventually enough people will get mad and change the laws or everyone will need to follow them to the letter.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 8:52:07 AM EST
I think a lot of the current concerns go back to personnel problems - hiring and keeping people who don't belong on the force because of Affirmative Action hiring or general lack of qualified applicants. Then you get things like that lady who passed her service Glock with a round in the pipe around a room of kids, and then managed to fire it, barely missing one kid's head, when putting the magazine back in. I know these kinds of things are extremely rare, but I think it would improve the overall police image a lot if people like this could be screened out earlier, and dealt with more harshly afterwards.

Going a little more into politics, it would also help if you could get the average patrolman's opinions out better. I admit I don't know how to do this, but I think it's an issue. We get a conflicting message here when all the cops on the board say that nobody they know would seize guns from law-abiding civilians, but we turn on the news and see CAGE going around seizing guns from people without the right paperwork, and all of the police chiefs and union people saying that "assault weapons don't belong on the street!"
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 9:28:42 AM EST
I'm gonna echo some stuff already stated here, but I see it like this:

If cops would spend less time going after traffic violations, spent more time cruising neighborhoods and stopping to chat with folks.... just to build rapport... And PDs spent more time indoctrinating a spirit of "most citizens are decent, and can help you".... It might just shine a spotlight on the "John Wayne's" to change their attitude or find another career... and PDs let go those who abuse their authority rather than constantly "closing ranks".... the overall integrity of cops as percieved by the citizenry would improve. Its a two-way street, between LEOs and the public, but since LEOs carry the guns and automatically have "authority" by virtue of their badges, THEY must be the ones to take the first step down that two-way street... and eventually, we WILL meet them halfway.

Honestly, this aint a bitch-session... its constructive criticism to anyone who has any influence within the LE community.
Link Posted: 9/10/2004 9:01:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By plarkinjr:
I'm gonna echo some stuff already stated here, but I see it like this:

If cops would spend less time going after traffic violations, spent more time cruising neighborhoods and stopping to chat with folks.... just to build rapport... And PDs spent more time indoctrinating a spirit of "most citizens are decent, and can help you".... It might just shine a spotlight on the "John Wayne's" to change their attitude or find another career... and PDs let go those who abuse their authority rather than constantly "closing ranks".... the overall integrity of cops as percieved by the citizenry would improve. Its a two-way street, between LEOs and the public, but since LEOs carry the guns and automatically have "authority" by virtue of their badges, THEY must be the ones to take the first step down that two-way street... and eventually, we WILL meet them halfway.

Honestly, this aint a bitch-session... its constructive criticism to anyone who has any influence within the LE community. hr


(1) I completely agree with the above. Now my question and coment. I live in a fairly safe city, why does it seem like the police are using intimidation as a tool. I dated a woman a few years ago and after dinner one evening on her way home she was pulled over(no ticket or arrest) she called me afterwards saying a total of 4 cars and 5 LE were there. Why would a small single woman pulled over in a well lit service station need that much attention?

(2) Our city has a week long community festival yearly, This year news reports stated that according to the local PD we had very few problems because of agressivness, ie: public drunkeness and the individual was converged upon. Their words. Doesn't this sound more like a military tactic vs a police tactic?

(3) Could be me or the area I live (very high cost of living) but our LEO's all seem very young. Are the new recruits being taught that it is us (LEO) verses them (citizen) once they hit the streets?

(4) I think it was said, don't allow politicans to run the PD's. I would like to see cheifs, Lt, etc. only doing police work in their community. We have a sworn officer who's job is media leaison. Why couldn't these type of jobs be done by civilians?

Sorry if I rambled a little. Thank You for this thread.



Roy
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 3:24:32 AM EST
Sometimes you have to ignore the small stuff. If you are tied up for 20 minutes writing some guy a weed ticket, it's twenty minutes you are not looking for the bangers on the way to the drive by, or the bank robber casing his next target. Ignore the small stuff and hold out for the bigger capers.

Link Posted: 9/11/2004 3:36:01 AM EST
Teach your recruits the difference between "Peace Officer" and "Police Officer".
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 3:49:08 AM EST

The GG's know that some cops are pro-gun & conservative, and some aren’t.

Some? I've lived in the south all 76 years of my life, and I've never met a pro-gun cop. I was good friends with one that was neutral about the issue, but that's it. I haven't met that many I would consider conservative. I deal with a lot of cops for work, and have a lot of former cops (either retired or on disability) that work for me. I do mean a lot. We can't afford to pay much, so we have a huge turn-over. I also used to live near the long-time sheriff and many of his deputies (many of them moved close to the sheriff's house ... must be a small-town southern thing), so I used to see many on a daily basis. None were pro-gun. Even the LEO that's the range officer at the range down the street from my house is extremely anti-gun. One day, I'd like to meet one of these mythical pro-gun cops in person.

About affirmative action, the black city cops here are almost all better educated than the whites. I saw a list of the city officers with their pre-hire qualifications and PT test results. The blacks also did much better physically. I don't mean by a small amount. They take much better care of themselves. At work, I have a lot of interaction with the local police. I cringe when I have to deal with a white officer. If anything, the opposite of affirmative action is in place around here.z
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 3:51:44 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 3:54:06 AM EST

The GG's know that some cops are pro-gun & conservative, and some aren’t.

Some? I've lived in the south all 76 years of my life, and I've never met a pro-gun cop. I was good friends with one that was neutral about the issue, but that's it. I haven't met that many I would consider conservative. I deal with a lot of cops for work, and have a lot of former cops (either retired or on disability) that work for me. I do mean a lot. We can't afford to pay much, so we have a huge turn-over. I also used to live near the long-time sheriff and many of his deputies (many of them moved close to the sheriff's house ... must be a small-town southern thing), so I used to see many on a daily basis. None were pro-gun. Even the LEO that's the range officer at the range down the street from my house is extremely anti-gun. One day, I'd like to meet one of these mythical pro-gun cops in person.

About affirmative action, the black city cops here are almost all better educated than the whites. I saw a list of the city officers with their pre-hire qualifications and PT test results. The blacks also did much better physically. I don't mean by a small amount. They take much better care of themselves. At work, I have a lot of interaction with the local police. I cringe when I have to deal with a white officer. If anything, the opposite of affirmative action is in place around here.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 4:02:16 AM EST
Actively OPPOSE no knock warrants. The people in the house must leave at some point in time. Arrest them at that time. I realize the chance of having an altercation in a public place but I'd rather see a fast takedown than seeing more no knocks go bad.

We should also be able to come up with a separation of traffic enforcement and police functions. Let the police deal with crime and traffic officers deal with traffic offenses.

jd1

Link Posted: 9/11/2004 4:09:14 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 4:16:58 AM EST
. For when I have more time. Like your idea here though
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 5:06:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/11/2004 5:07:55 AM EST by Grivo_Mak]
Tell your recruits at the academy to be aware of which of their supervisors is an idiot who lacks situational awareness and officer safety skills. Let them know that if they are given an order to do something that is clearly against all officer safety principles and is likely to get themselves or another officer killed to outright disobey it. They should also be prepared to articulate this later.

Be prepared to do the same when being ordered to perform illegal searches or seizures.

I've been in both types of situations and survived. I will continue to do it every time that I am faced with such a situation again.
So far I've refused to:
1)Stand in the road directly in front of a house where a barricaded drunk was pointing a 30.06 out the window at us. My sgt felt traffic flow was more important than establishing a safe perimeter. SWAT ended that situation appropriately.
2)Refused to commit an armed burglary of a citizen's home just to get another citizen to quit calling and complaining. Was threatened until I called my PBA rep.
3)Refused to commit an armed kidnapping. Was threatened until I notified a Major and PBA rep. Yes I know I jumped the chained.
4) Countless refusals for illegal searches. None have resulted in discipline but I did get the "you're not a team player" speech. Fuck that team!

These guys weren't intentionally trying to hurt me or violate rights, they didn't know/understand the law. They just didn't like having a subordinate stand up to them.


None of our instructors ever prepared us for those times and I've seen rookies get themselves hurt or in trouble because they blindly followed a stupid Sgt, Lt or even Capt.
It isn't until you get some real time in on the job do you come to the realization that the only person looking out for you is you.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 5:40:21 AM EST

Here's one for you:

Quit doing what I call cheap shots, such as running radar at the bottom of a long hill. Everyone knows cars will pick up speed... give me a break...


Link Posted: 9/11/2004 12:28:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By plarkinjr:
If cops would spend less time going after traffic violations, spent more time cruising neighborhoods and stopping to chat with folks.... just to build rapport... And PDs spent more time indoctrinating a spirit of "most citizens are decent, and can help you".... It might just shine a spotlight on the "John Wayne's" to change their attitude or find another career...



I'll answer this one. Traffic enforcement is our number one citizen complaint; people WANT us out there enforcing the traffic laws in their areas. We do not have enough officers to sit in all of the areas that want an officer to sit there.

As for the cruising around and talking to people thing, that will vary by agency. In my full time agency, and in many agencies, there simply isn't time to do what you recomend. Between calls for service, report writing, transports, arrests and the other stuff we do from day to day, there simply sin't time. Sure, there are slow days where I find myself doing that, but if I did that each and everyu day, my productivity levels would be so low I would find myself called on the carpet and possibly facing disciplinary action.

In my part time agency ( small village PD ), its exactly the opposite; population of 2500, maybe 2-4 calls a night, and time to walk around and talk to people, which I do at length and which the admins encourage because of the rtealities of small village politics.



and PDs let go those who abuse their authority rather than constantly "closing ranks".... the overall integrity of cops as percieved by the citizenry would improve.


And you don't think that in most cases the officers aren't being thrown to the wolves? There are reasons why we close ranks; the majority of officers are good officers, even in cases where its politically correct and politically expedient to throw an officer to the wolves to placate an ignorant public on the warpath after a politicallys ensitive incident.


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