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Posted: 10/3/2005 5:07:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/3/2005 5:08:24 AM EDT by chapperjoe]
I'm thinking of a windchester trapper or ranger......  just a regular keep-around gun.  Which caliber do you prefer out of 18-20" barrel and why?

ETA: I voted 357 for the nice SXT and hydra shok rounds I like out of revolvers.  The extra velocity has got to do wonders to those rounds.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 5:11:32 AM EDT
357 for fun, especially if you want to reload.

30-30 for killing.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 5:14:20 AM EDT
Both
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 5:17:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DarkCloud:
357 for fun, especially if you want to reload.

30-30 for killing.



Yeah?  Are the 30-30 self defense rounds as cheap as 357?  I don't reload.

Link Posted: 10/3/2005 5:28:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/3/2005 5:29:12 AM EDT by skid2964]
If I was only hunting, I'd say the 30-30 ... but I voted for the 357, kinda hard to beat for ammunition variety.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 5:31:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/3/2005 5:32:04 AM EDT by chapperjoe]

Originally Posted By skid2964:
If I was only hunting, I'd say the 30-30 ... but I voted for the 357, kinda hard to beat for ammunition variety.



that's what I'm thinking.  9+1 rounds of 357 hydrashoks out of a 16" barrel is very very comforting !
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 5:33:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:


30-30 self defense rounds




I've never heard of any such thing.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 5:37:18 AM EDT
44 Mag.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 5:37:23 AM EDT
I love my thirty-thirty, but I would LOVE to get one in .357 (Marlin 1894cp)

That said, why winchester? I prefer Marlin. Side eject opposed to top eject, beefier receiver and tighter action, no rattling. (my marlin is a vintage '68 and is as tight and smooth as a....well you get the idea)


roy d...loves the lever
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 5:38:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 2A373:

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:


30-30 self defense rounds




I've never heard of any such thing.



well then I think that made up my mind!

now anything wrong with the 357 winchester trapper?
http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/catalog/detail.asp?cat_id=534&type_id=094&cat=003C
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 5:40:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RoyDamnMercer:
I love my thirty-thirty, but I would LOVE to get one in .357 (Marlin 1894cp)

That said, why winchester? I prefer Marlin. Side eject opposed to top eject, beefier receiver and tighter action, no rattling. (my marlin is a vintage '68 and is as tight and smooth as a....well you get the idea)

roy d...loves the lever



I like the Marlin over the WW also ...
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 5:42:02 AM EDT
the only marlin i could find in 357 is this one:

www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/leverActionCB_rifles/1894Cowboy-Othr_PR.htm

its a tad longer than the winchester but it does hold 10+1.  I think 9+1 and shorter sounds better for a go anywhere rifle.  what's the actual price difference?
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 5:43:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 2A373:
Originally Posted By chapperjoe:


30-30 self defense rounds

As far as a so-called sef defense round, I don't know of any, but a good Winchester silver tip I do believe would suffice.

Another alternative that you might consider would be a Marlin in 35 Rem. Powerful little load. A great game getter. I am not personally a fan of 357. It is a good round, It's just not my bag of tricks.hinking.gif
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 5:44:46 AM EDT
Here ya go.

Marlin .357
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 5:48:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Researcher:
Here ya go.

Marlin .357



looks nice.  Is the concensus amojng lever guys marlin over winchester?
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 6:02:13 AM EDT
Definately Marlin!
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 6:04:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Older_Crow:
Definately Marlin!



just for the side eject or are tehre other reasons?
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 6:10:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:

looks nice.  Is the concensus amojng lever guys marlin over winchester?



Marlin.  And this is coming from a guy who owns a Winchester Model 94 in 30-30.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 6:10:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By green-grizzly:
44 Mag.



i got to go with the .44 Mag. also.
much more knock down than either  30-30 or .357.
the .44 and 30-30 are both 100 yd guns.  
357 maybe to 50 yds.

i would look at buying a lee handy press at a set of dies, some spray on case lube, a sheet of primers, a box of bullets and a pound of powder.
total will be about $75.00.
it's a great investment and a lot of fun.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 6:14:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/3/2005 6:16:26 AM EDT by kill-9]
I have the Marlin 1894C (.357) and love it.  When I bought it, I looked at both it and the Winchester; the Marlin won hands down.

Link Posted: 10/3/2005 6:25:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kill-9:
I have the Marlin 1894C (.357) and love it.  When I bought it, I looked at both it and the Winchester; the Marlin won hands down.

www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/images/firearmImages/1894C.jpg



Why did the Marlin win out?
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 6:36:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/3/2005 6:36:38 AM EDT by kill-9]

Originally Posted By Dawg180:

Originally Posted By kill-9:
I have the Marlin 1894C (.357) and love it.  When I bought it, I looked at both it and the Winchester; the Marlin won hands down.

www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/images/firearmImages/1894C.jpg



Why did the Marlin win out?



Side eject, nicer quality wood, better overall workmanship, better reviews.  I purchased about 5 years ago, so that's all I can remember off the top of my head.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 6:38:14 AM EDT
I've always considered the Marlin much more robust and solid ... just a better designed weapon. They are surprisingly accurate for what they are also.  A friend had one in 444 that would consistently shoot sub MOA at 100 yards. (300gr. XTP over 55gr of H335 if I remember correctly, check it before you use it though!) I couldn't believe how accurate that thing was.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 6:38:27 AM EDT
For hunting, the .30-30, or better yet - the .35Rem - for plinking or social purposes, .357mag or .44mag...


"the .44 and 30-30 are both 100 yd guns."


I disagree with that a bit - the .30-30 DEFINETLY has more deer killing range than 100 yards -ATLEAST 150 to 200 yards, IMO and experience... Also, I believe Marlin is making a better lever gun these days than Winchester...



 - georgestrings
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 6:42:18 AM EDT
336 in .35remington.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 6:49:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
I'm thinking of a windchester trapper or ranger......  just a regular keep-around gun.  Which caliber do you prefer out of 18-20" barrel and why?

ETA: I voted 357 for the nice SXT and hydra shok rounds I like out of revolvers.  The extra velocity has got to do wonders to those rounds.



The .30-30 is FAR more powerful than a .357 will ever be.

.357 if you want a plinker/SASS gun.

.30-30 if you intend it to be a more serious weapon.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 6:55:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hk940:
i got to go with the .44 Mag. also.
much more knock down than either  30-30 or .357.
the .44 and 30-30 are both 100 yd guns.  
357 maybe to 50 yds.



.44 magnum ballistics from Federal:

Federal Load No.
Factory Primer No.
Caliber
Bullet Weight
Grains / Grams
Bullet style
Use
T.B*


P44HS1
150
44 Rem. Magnum
240 / 15.55
Hydra-Shok JHP
9
6.5-V


Velocity in Feet Per Second

Muzzle
25
50
75
100

1180
1131
1085
1046
1012

Energy in Foot Pounds

Muzzle
25
50
75
100

742
681
627
583
546

Wind Drift in Inches 10 MPH Crosswind

25
50
75
100

0.5
1.2
2.4
4.1

Average Range

25
50
75
100


-0.8
-3.4
-8.1

.30-30 ballistics from Federal:

Federal Load No.
Factory Primer No.
Caliber
Bullet Weight
Grains / Grams
Bullet style
Use
T.B*


3030B
210
30-30 Win.
170 / 11.02
Soft Point FN
2
24


Velocity in Feet Per Second

Muzzle
100
200
300
400
500

2200
1894
1619
1380
1191
1060

Energy in Foot Pounds

Muzzle
100
200
300
400
500

1827
1354
990
719
535
424

Wind Drift in Inches 10 MPH Crosswind

100
200
300
400
500

1.8
8.1
19.4
36.7
59.9

Average Range

50
100
200
300
400
500

0.3

-8.4
-30.0
-70.3
-135.4

Long Range

50
100
200
300
400
500

2.4
4.2

-17.4
-53.5
-114.4

Now perhaps you would like to re-examine your hypothesis about the .44 magnum having more "knock-down" than the .30-30.

The .30-30 is a RIFLE cartridge, and a darn good one. At 400 yards it has more muzzle energy than a .44 magnum AT the muzzle.

It is a hell of a lot more than a 100 yard cartridge.

Link Posted: 10/3/2005 6:55:50 AM EDT
I had a lever action 357 and could never quite figure out what it was good for.  Handgun cartridges belong in handguns. Otherwise, what's the point?
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 6:55:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 2A373:

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:


30-30 self defense rounds




I've never heard of any such thing.



You've never heard of such a thing because every 30/30 load is a manstopper!

The 30/30 is far superior to a .357 in stopping ability.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 6:57:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By georgestrings:
For hunting, the .30-30, or better yet - the .35Rem - for plinking or social purposes, .357mag or .44mag...


"the .44 and 30-30 are both 100 yd guns."


I disagree with that a bit - the .30-30 DEFINETLY has more deer killing range than 100 yards -ATLEAST 150 to 200 yards, IMO and experience... Also, I believe Marlin is making a better lever gun these days than Winchester...



The .30-30 is a seriously underrated cartridge.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 6:58:08 AM EDT
If you got the 30-30 and got into handloading .... it wouldnt matter about ammo cost. The 30-30 has tons of bullets available for it .... the little 100gr HP is a nice bullet for plinking and short range varminting. ...
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 7:01:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalMan:
You've never heard of such a thing because every 30/30 load is a manstopper!

The 30/30 is far superior to a .357 in stopping ability.



Indeed.

The .30-30 is a RIFLE cartridge, sufficiently powerful to bring down everything from Elk to angry bear. It has been killing big game in America for many many many many years.

It is less powerful than the .30-06, but it is still FAR MORE POWERFUL than ANY handgun round, PERIOD.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 7:02:08 AM EDT
Remember the North Hollywood bank robbery?  Those guys took a shit load of pistol rounds without much effect.  All it would have taken to stop those guys leaving the bank parking lot would have been someone with a 30/30 and the where-with-all to use it.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 7:02:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By skid2964:
If you got the 30-30 and got into handloading .... it wouldnt matter about ammo cost. The 30-30 has tons of bullets available for it .... the little 100gr HP is a nice bullet for plinking and short range varminting. ...



Indeed, the .30-30 uses a (suprise!) 30 caliber bullet, meaning that you can find about any bullet weight you want. The lever action rifles, however, have rifling optimized to bullet weights popular for deer hunting. (150gr, 170gr...)
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 7:03:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By hk940:
i got to go with the .44 Mag. also.
much more knock down than either  30-30 or .357.
the .44 and 30-30 are both 100 yd guns.  
357 maybe to 50 yds.



.44 magnum ballistics from Federal:

Federal Load No.
Factory Primer No.
Caliber
Bullet Weight
Grains / Grams
Bullet style
Use
T.B*


P44HS1
150
44 Rem. Magnum
240 / 15.55
Hydra-Shok JHP
9
6.5-V


Velocity in Feet Per Second

Muzzle
25
50
75
100

1180
1131
1085
1046
1012

Energy in Foot Pounds

Muzzle
25
50
75
100

742
681
627
583
546

Wind Drift in Inches 10 MPH Crosswind

25
50
75
100

0.5
1.2
2.4
4.1

Average Range

25
50
75
100


-0.8
-3.4
-8.1

.30-30 ballistics from Federal:

Federal Load No.
Factory Primer No.
Caliber
Bullet Weight
Grains / Grams
Bullet style
Use
T.B*


3030B
210
30-30 Win.
170 / 11.02
Soft Point FN
2
24


Velocity in Feet Per Second

Muzzle
100
200
300
400
500

2200
1894
1619
1380
1191
1060

Energy in Foot Pounds

Muzzle
100
200
300
400
500

1827
1354
990
719
535
424

Wind Drift in Inches 10 MPH Crosswind

100
200
300
400
500

1.8
8.1
19.4
36.7
59.9

Average Range

50
100
200
300
400
500

0.3

-8.4
-30.0
-70.3
-135.4

Long Range

50
100
200
300
400
500

2.4
4.2

-17.4
-53.5
-114.4

Now perhaps you would like to re-examine your hypothesis about the .44 magnum having more "knock-down" than the .30-30.

The .30-30 is a RIFLE cartridge, and a darn good one. At 400 yards it has more muzzle energy than a .44 magnum AT the muzzle.

It is a hell of a lot more than a 100 yard cartridge.




Really, JW.
I mean, c'mon guys, just take a look at the cartridges.  Case capacity alone tells you the rifle cartridge has got to be the more powerful cartridge; by a LOT!
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 7:05:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/3/2005 7:07:10 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By Dolomite:
Remember the North Hollywood bank robbery?  Those guys took a shit load of pistol rounds without much effect.  All it would have taken to stop those guys leaving the bank parking lot would have been someone with a 30/30 and the where-with-all to use it.



Precisely.

The lever action .30-30 is a handy little weapon with a pretty nasty bite. It is more powerful than the .223, and a bit less powerful than the .308. It is nothing to screw around with.

Link Posted: 10/3/2005 7:39:52 AM EDT
BOTH SHOULD BE BANNED!
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 7:40:01 AM EDT
The 30-30 is a rifle cartridge, the .357 is not.  Period.

SD cartridges for 30-30 are Federals 125gr Hi Shok JHP, PMC 150gr Starfire JHP, 150gr. Winchester SilverTip PSP, etc.  Damn near every thutty thutty load is a SD load.  

For plinking, get some of those bitchin 30-30 Accellarators.  I think its a saboted 55gr. 223Rem load in a 30-30 casing, but I cant remember so I cant be sure.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 7:46:52 AM EDT
If you are buying a Winchester, the .357 will have the same size receiver as the .30/30. If you are going to carry a full sized rifle receiver, put a full sized rifle round in it.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 7:48:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
I'm thinking of a windchester trapper or ranger......  just a regular keep-around gun.  Which caliber do you prefer out of 18-20" barrel and why?

ETA: I voted 357 for the nice SXT and hydra shok rounds I like out of revolvers.  The extra velocity has got to do wonders to those rounds.



The .30-30 is FAR more powerful than a .357 will ever be.

.357 if you want a plinker/SASS gun.

.30-30 if you intend it to be a more serious weapon.



Yea…

If you want to defend yourself a good rifle cartridge is almost always better.

Second if you have to have a pistol caliber rifle why .357 instead of 44 mag and 45 LC. 357 is possible the WORST of all choices in a centerfire lever action rifle.

Why pick the LEAST effective round… cause you get 1 more shot. Don’t make sense.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 7:51:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
ETA: I voted 357 for the nice SXT and hydra shok rounds I like out of revolvers.  The extra velocity has got to do wonders to those rounds.



It sure will... they'll open up very fast leading to shallow penetration and possible bullet failure. .357 mag at carbine speeds needs soft point bullets.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 7:52:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By monkeyman:
I had a lever action 357 and could never quite figure out what it was good for.  Handgun cartridges belong in handguns. Otherwise, what's the point?



Exactly.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 7:55:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By monkeyman:
I had a lever action 357 and could never quite figure out what it was good for.  Handgun cartridges belong in handguns. Otherwise, what's the point?



Exactly.



The only real reason I see for them is if you are into SASS, or if you just enjoy them as a plinker. The short throw on those pistol caliber carbines makes them quick and fun to shoot, but they aren't practical for anything.

As to brand, I prefer the Marlin. Marlins are usually very accurate, and they have fewer moving parts than a Winchester.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 8:01:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/3/2005 8:25:59 AM EDT by AR15fan]

Originally Posted By green-grizzly:
44 Mag.



+1

Load up with 300Gn XTP's.

I have no use for the anemic 180 & 240 Gn .44mag loads.  
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 8:04:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By skid2964:
I've always considered the Marlin much more robust and solid ...  



The Marlin pistol grip stock shape is better for me than the marlin or win straight stock.  the marlins also have a smoother action and better recoilpad/butt plate.  all of which means its easier to keep the marlin in your shoulder pocket with the sights on target as you cycle the action.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 8:06:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 2A373:

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:


30-30 self defense rounds




I've never heard of any such thing.




 +1

 Who wants to fight with a lever action? cowboys?
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 8:07:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By akethan:

Originally Posted By 2A373:

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:


30-30 self defense rounds




I've never heard of any such thing.




 +1

 Who wants to fight with a lever action? cowboys?




Link Posted: 10/3/2005 8:08:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/3/2005 8:11:00 AM EDT by AR15fan]
John Wayne,
Muzzle energy and velocity are meaningless when it comes to wound ballistics. all that matters is crush cavity, depth of penetration, recovered diameter, and to a lessor extent temporary cavity.

The 300Gn 44 Mag XTP will penetrate 20"+ and expand to .67


Every levergun shooter should read this thread:
www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000123#000000
Levergun ammo tested in a scientifically valid method.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 8:10:19 AM EDT
I have a Winchester trapper in 44.  Marlins are nice too.  I like the Winchester better because it is slimmer and lighter - I wanted a handy little carbine and the Winchester fit the bill better.  One other advantage of the Winchester is that, because it is designed around rifle cartridges (unlike the Marlin), you can load bullets to the second cannelure with 300 gain bullets, allowing you to use the full power pistol loadings out of the reloading manuals.  It is really a lot of gun for somthing smaller and lighter than an M4.

As others have said, the 44 in a rifle is quite a cartridge.  It has nearly as much energy at the muzzle as a 30/30, and IMHO is a better killer.  My 300 grain handloads inspire great confidence, and it shoots pretty flat.  I can get about 125+ yards, and the bullet is never more than 2" above the LOS.  If you were big game hunting, you could get more range.

I have a 1-3x20 Weaver scope mounted.  The trigger is suprisingly light, 5 pounds IIRC, and the little carbine really shoots - it does 2 MOA with my handloads.  It carries 9 rounds in the mag.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 8:12:59 AM EDT
Interesting discussion and alot of false info being slung around. Apparently there is a lack of hunting and reloading knowledge amongst our avid shooters on this board.

The .30-30 is an excellent medium sized deer cartridge, that cannot be denied. The .44 mag however, is routinely used to hunt large deer and bears from a revolver platform. From a rifle, the .44 mag is significantly more gun. The same can be said about the .357 mag from a rifle. It does have a much smaller case than the .30-30, but it is a much newer cartridge and has higher pressures. From a short revolver barrel either round does a poor job of burning that slow magnum powder. From an 18"-20" barrel, velocities are surprising to say the least. Notice how close the .357 mag velocities are to the .30-30. In real world terminal performance they aren't too far apart.

Here are some velocities from Speer reloading manual no. 13.

.357 mag-

125 grain JHP 2125 FPS
140 grain JHP 1934 FPS
158 grain JSP 1738 FPS

.44 mag-

200 grain JHP 2116 FPS
240 grain JSP 1788 FPS
270 grain JSP 1573 FPS
300 grain JSP 1503 FPS

Using some of the "nuclear" loadings around from Buffalo Bore and the like will increase velocities even more.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 8:24:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By konger:
Interesting discussion and alot of false info being slung around. Apparently there is a lack of hunting and reloading knowledge amongst our avid shooters on this board.

The .30-30 is an excellent medium sized deer cartridge, that cannot be denied. The .44 mag however, is routinely used to hunt large deer and bears from a revolver platform. From a rifle, the .44 mag is significantly more gun.



Yep.  Look at the .305Gn factory ammo from the big 3 for the .45-70.  You can push the .300Gn 44mag bullets nearly as fast from a lever gun.  Do you think a bear knows the difference between a 300Gn .429" bullet and a 305Gn .451" bullet at simular velocities?
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