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Link Posted: 10/3/2005 8:30:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/3/2005 8:31:37 AM EDT by akethan]

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By akethan:

Originally Posted By 2A373:

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:


30-30 self defense rounds




I've never heard of any such thing.




 +1

 Who wants to fight with a lever action? cowboys?







  I've got 2 model 94's a '41 and a '63

 I have killed several deer with the '41 it was left to me by my grandfather.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 8:30:38 AM EDT
The 44 compares very well to the 30/30.  You have to realize that the 44 gains significant velocity when used in rifle.  The velocity can jump 600 fps.  For instance, the 44 mag with 240 grain bullets has a muzzle velocity of 1760 fps.  The 30/30 has a muzzle velocity of 2390 fps with 150 grain bullets (.  The 30/30 has muzzle energy of 1903 and the 44 has 1651 (a 15% difference).

As far as trajectory, the 44 rifle is about a 150 yard cartridge for big game.  The 30/30 is about a 200 yard cartridge.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 8:47:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By hk940:
i got to go with the .44 Mag. also.
much more knock down than either  30-30 or .357.
the .44 and 30-30 are both 100 yd guns.  
357 maybe to 50 yds.



.44 magnum ballistics from Federal:

Federal Load No.
Factory Primer No.
Caliber
Bullet Weight
Grains / Grams
Bullet style
Use
T.B*


P44HS1
150
44 Rem. Magnum
240 / 15.55
Hydra-Shok JHP
9
6.5-V


Velocity in Feet Per Second

Muzzle
25
50
75
100

1180
1131
1085
1046
1012

Energy in Foot Pounds

Muzzle
25
50
75
100

742
681
627
583
546

Wind Drift in Inches 10 MPH Crosswind

25
50
75
100

0.5
1.2
2.4
4.1

Average Range

25
50
75
100


-0.8
-3.4
-8.1

.30-30 ballistics from Federal:

Federal Load No.
Factory Primer No.
Caliber
Bullet Weight
Grains / Grams
Bullet style
Use
T.B*


3030B
210
30-30 Win.
170 / 11.02
Soft Point FN
2
24


Velocity in Feet Per Second

Muzzle
100
200
300
400
500

2200
1894
1619
1380
1191
1060

Energy in Foot Pounds

Muzzle
100
200
300
400
500

1827
1354
990
719
535
424

Wind Drift in Inches 10 MPH Crosswind

100
200
300
400
500

1.8
8.1
19.4
36.7
59.9

Average Range

50
100
200
300
400
500

0.3

-8.4
-30.0
-70.3
-135.4

Long Range

50
100
200
300
400
500

2.4
4.2

-17.4
-53.5
-114.4

Now perhaps you would like to re-examine your hypothesis about the .44 magnum having more "knock-down" than the .30-30.

The .30-30 is a RIFLE cartridge, and a darn good one. At 400 yards it has more muzzle energy than a .44 magnum AT the muzzle.

It is a hell of a lot more than a 100 yard cartridge.




Actually, you're wrong.  You're quoting ballistics on the .44 magnum OUT OF A HANDGUN!!

In a carbine, the .44 magnum is very similar in velocity to the 30-30 with bullet weights of ~ 170 -180 grain.  

For example, Remington UMC .44Magnum 180gr chronos out of a 18inch barrel at 2200 fps!

240gr weight bullets of of the carbine usually chrono in the 1800 - 1850fps range.  275gr bullets are at 1600fps.

I've shot deer and hogs with both and I'm convinced the .44 magnum is the better (short-range) rifle round.



 

Link Posted: 10/3/2005 9:53:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By akethan:
Who wants to fight with a lever action? cowboys?


I'm a big believer that a person should arm themselves with the gun they shoot the most, also, levers a good option in states that have severe semi-auto bans in place.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 9:56:47 AM EDT
In case I didn't say it alreayd, I don't handload.  So forget that.  Also I live in an apartment so I'm thinking a rifle round might not be the best, I don't ever expect to use this gun at rifle ranges either.  I am not ABJECT to the 30/30, just thought it might be too much.  What're ammo prices compared to 357?
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 10:00:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
What're ammo prices compared to 357?


Each would be in the neighborhood of $10 a box.

(but with 30/30 you'll get 20 in the box, with cheap-o .357 you'll end up with 50)
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 10:10:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GTTacoma:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By hk940:
i got to go with the .44 Mag. also.
much more knock down than either  30-30 or .357.
the .44 and 30-30 are both 100 yd guns.  
357 maybe to 50 yds.



.44 magnum ballistics from Federal:

Blah Blah


Drivel Drivel

darn good one. At 400 yards it has more muzzle energy than a .44 magnum AT the muzzle.

It is a hell of a lot more than a 100 yard cartridge.




Actually, you're wrong.  You're quoting ballistics on the .44 magnum OUT OF A HANDGUN!!

In a carbine, the .44 magnum is very similar in velocity to the 30-30 with bullet weights of ~ 170 -180 grain.  

For example, Remington UMC .44Magnum 180gr chronos out of a 18inch barrel at 2200 fps!

240gr weight bullets of of the carbine usually chrono in the 1800 - 1850fps range.  275gr bullets are at 1600fps.

I've shot deer and hogs with both and I'm convinced the .44 magnum is the better (short-range) rifle round.





Those balistics you quoted for the 44 mag are anemic.  

The Remington Website lists 44 mag as having 1650fpe from the muzzle from their Express 240gr loads and the 30-30 as having 1820 from their 170gr loads.  

Now at a short range these small differences in Energy are overcome by 70 more grains of lead and a much larger caliber bullet.

So basically these bullets at rangers under 100 yards are pretty similar in killing power.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 10:18:06 AM EDT
I have both a Winchester 94 in 30-30, and a Marlin 1894c in .357.  The Marlin has a wide range of ammo that can be used for different purposes, and for anything short of medium game it is often way cheapen than 30-30.  Buffalo Bore's 180gr .357 round definitely levels that playing field a bit too when it comes to deer, etc.
The 30-30 is great for whitetail hunting, but the .357 has so many more shorter range applications that it is suited for.


Link Posted: 10/3/2005 10:20:05 AM EDT
Chapper--

I had  a 16" trapper model 94 Win.  in .357.  Awesome gun, very easy to point, very accurate.

.357 Mag is a lot of gun.  30-30 is a veery weak rifle caliber.

.357  Mag in model 94 allows you to hold 9+1, 30-30 is only 5+1

Go .357
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 10:21:57 AM EDT
The .44 mag is a little overkill. .357 Mag is 'just right'

i've seen the rear sight come off from .44 recoil
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 10:38:54 AM EDT

 Here is the deal. If you choose a 30-30 the best picks are either the pre 64 Winchester 94 or a Marlin 336. Both of those guns are well made and more accurate than most people give them credit for being.
 If you choose a 357 definitely go Marlin or contact Steves Gunz in Texas and get a Winchester 92 copy from him that he has already worked over. He got hammered by Rita but is recovering.
 The 30-30 is a better choice for hunting. You can handload it down and shoot cast bullets for fun if you want to. It is a deer killer out to 200 yards if you are. A Marlin with a scout set up on it is hard to beat.
 The 357 is more limited as a hunting round, but out of a carbine you can throw a Speer Gold Dot 170 at about 1850 fps which is approaching 30-30 ballistics. That load will kill any deer alive and will go right through them. A top load with a good 158 grainer will too. You can also shoot 38 Specials which gives you two guns in one.
 A lever with a Williams Foolproof or Ashley rear sight makes a good gun to have. You can get scope like accuracy out to 100 yards with the peep sight.
 For general use including defense the 357 is probably the best choice. It will hold a dozen or so 38 Specials which are plenty out of a carbine. For more of a pure hunting gun with added range and power the 30-30 is better.
 If you want to conventiional scope it, get a Marlin. You can Scout either one. Few guns are more fun than a 357 carbine.
 
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 10:43:38 AM EDT
F**Kit...get both!

You pukes forget the original question....357 vs .30-30 for Chapperjoe's purposes.  He implied/said the purposes are for HD, plinking, and said he lives in an apartment.

based on that criterea I vote .357.  Mostly because I like the idea of a 125 grain semi jacketed hp screaming down the barrel.


Been eyeing one myself, I like my .30-30, it is light and handy, but something that I can pop cheapy .38's down range all day and not break the bank sounds like fun.  


Link Posted: 10/3/2005 10:45:44 AM EDT
I'm not planning on a scope, I kinda want to keep it KISS.  MIIIIIIGHT get the XS ghost ring set, maybe.  But definitely not a scope.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 10:47:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/3/2005 10:48:26 AM EDT by mjohn3006]
For the times that a bad guy is hiding behind 10 layers of drywall, 3 gallon jugs of water and a cinderblock wall full of bricks (per the box o' truth)

45-70

I just like posting pics of my 45-70.  Go with the 357 for your purpose.


Link Posted: 10/3/2005 10:54:55 AM EDT
Didn't Tarus make a wheel gun in 30-30??  Or am I thinking of 30 Carbine?

Why a lever gun in HD??  Yes it can work but there are better solutions for a similar price tag.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 11:04:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
Didn't Tarus make a wheel gun in 30-30??  Or am I thinking of 30 Carbine?

Why a lever gun in HD??  Yes it can work but there are better solutions for a similar price tag.



Ruger made/makes a single action revolver in 30 carbine.

Don't know about Tarus making one.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 1:01:08 PM EDT
I have the windchester trapper in .357 and love it!
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 1:08:10 PM EDT
The top grade 30-30 Marlin is a beautifully made gun and is dirt cheap, like $330.

You can't go wrong with that one.

The cartridge in 170 grain is just fine, enough power, low recoil.

Just dont get a huge scope, I hate that on a lever gun.

A 357 rifle is sort of a gizmo play toy type thing.  If you are going to get the pistol version get a 44 mag.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 3:04:09 PM EDT
30-30,  357mag,  or .44mag,  they can all be effective.

And fun to shoot.

.357mag from a 16" barrel is pretty cool too,  a 140gr. at about 2000 fps is nothing to laugh at.

I prefer .44mag.




Handloding pistol is MUCH easier that rifle !
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 3:15:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
just a regular keep-around gun.  


Keep around for what?

A was said before the 30-30 is a better killing round. Most ammo for the 30-30 is made for deer hunting and so will work just fine for self-defense.  It is flatter shooting and hits harder at longer range (something you usually don't say in favor of the 30-30).

But the 357 will hold more rounds in the magazine, which is a plus for self defense. Also the 357 or even 38 special out of a rifle barrel is a very good man stopper.  It's enough for deer but without a large cushion.

I can't use a modern rifle for deer in this state so I choose the 357 for the funness of it.  If I lived 5 miles south of here in KY I might think different.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 9:11:37 PM EDT
158 JSP is about the best you can get over the counter for the .357 MAG,there are some people that hunt black  bear with these!!!There are also some JSP 44Rem MAG shells,and some people hunt black bears with these also!!


There are stories told of people being charged by a cow moose,then climbing a tree fireing six rounds of .44Rem Mag into the moose!  And it allmost knocked them out of the tree,before walking off and laying down about 100 yards away!!

Is that the kind of killing power you are talking about?

No guides I have ever heard of carry the .44Rem Mag for anything but backup,most of them carry .444,45/70,.375H&H!! or a twelve guage with slugs!!!!

A 30/30 at any range with any weight bullet makes a .357 a weak choice!

Go to Canandiangunnutz.com and ask in the hunting forem about the .44Rem Mag and the .357Mag

as a hunting round!!!!

Killing a 200 lb man okay,just don't expect too much out of it!!!!


Bob
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 9:17:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LotBoy:
I have the windchester trapper in .357 and love it!



+1  As do I
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 1:40:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalMan:

Originally Posted By 2A373:

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:


30-30 self defense rounds




I've never heard of any such thing.



You've never heard of such a thing because every 30/30 load is a manstopper!

The 30/30 is far superior to a .357 in stopping ability.



Yep, a 30-30 round is defiantly a man-stopper.  To clarify I meant that I had never heard of a 30-30 round that is advertised as a "self defense load".
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 3:34:10 AM EDT
I voted .357 because I like the whole rifle/pistol thing.
I've always wanted a .357 lever with a 16" barrel.

I had a 30/30 once, and wish I had kept it.

Aw shucks! Get both!

Link Posted: 10/4/2005 3:49:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 3:52:35 AM EDT by sgwlower]
I've been looking at picking up the winchester for quite some time. When they finally revised thier rifle I actually put myself on a waiting list for one at my fun shop, when the thing came in I told em I didnt want it.

1. The wood was horrible
2. It was the sloppiest action I had ever seen on a lever gun
3. The blueing was splotchy to say the least
4. Did I mention the sloppy action---you could wiggle the ejection handle/lever side to side almost 3/4 of an inch

I've held the marlin an didnt find it comfortable, I also found it heavy, and not as quick handling. My response was 357 due to I always wanted one and with ammo versitility you cant beat it. However when it was all said and done my money I saved for that little winny went into a really nice bushy ar.

I vote build yourself a decent cheap lightweight no frills, accessories, AR for behind the seat. Lightwieght barrel, a1/a2 upper, 4 position stock--keep it KISS.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 3:53:56 AM EDT
I'll chime in with the Marlin over Winchester crowd. You'll be much happier when you clean it.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 4:17:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 4:29:07 AM EDT by Hoppy]

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:

Originally Posted By Researcher:
Here ya go.

Marlin .357



looks nice.  Is the concensus amojng lever guys marlin over winchester?




I own the Winchester Ranger 16" in 45 Colt.  I like it and it handles and operates very well.

My understanding though is that the Marlin may be a better rifle in 38/357.  I've heard it said that the Winchester was developed for the 30-30 and then modified to accept the smaller handgun rounds.  Because of this some Winchesters have trouble feeding the handgun rounds.  The Marlin on the other hand was developed with handgun rounds in mind and is supposed to operate better in that area.  Some don't like the micro-groove barrels of the Marlin though and I understand lead bullets are bad for them.

As I stated earlier, I have no trouble with my Winchester in 45 Colt.  It may be that, because of this rounds larger size, it works OK or the company has made some improvements to the action to operate better with handgun rounds.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 4:32:58 AM EDT
Get a Marlin in .357 Magnum. If you decide you'd still lke to try a .30-30, there are usually tons of them in pawnshops that can be bought for reasonable prices. My first deer rifle was a used Marlin 336 that I got it for Christmas in '84 and I still have it. I have always thought a lever gun in .357 Mag. would be a fun gun to have.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 4:39:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hoppy:

 Some don't like the micro-groove barrels of the Marlin though and I understand lead bullets are bad for them.




According to Marlin's website their current production .357 and .44 mag rifle barrels now use "deep-cut Ballard-type rifling (6 grooves)", and the .41 Mag rifles use the Micro-Groove rifling.
www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/1894_centerfireRifles/index.htm
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:27:33 AM EDT
I've got the trapper in a 45 long colt.   Love it and I will be getting the .357  next.   It's a great shooting rifle and easy to carry in the woods.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:41:23 AM EDT
When you buy a Winchester you buy the name. When you buy a Marlin you buy a tank! The Marlin is heavy and rugged. The Winchester, light and sloppy. 30-30 versus .357... The 30-30 WILL poke holes in a vest, the .357 maybe-maybe not. I own several of each, Marlins in 30-30, 45-70 and .44. Winchesters 3 in 30-30. I find the Marlins to be a little more accurate than the Winchesters. I think it is due to the weight,  for me the Marlin is quicker to get back on target.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 5:45:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 2:57:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wave:
I pick the Marlin 1894C in 357/38special. Why? Because I am literally swimming in 38 special
rounds so it's "free" for me to shoot it.

By the way...what's a calier?



oh jeez the nypd is now the spelling police too!
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 5:19:26 AM EDT
I have a pre-64 Winchester 30-30 large ring saddle carbine.  I spent more on restoring it than I would have paid for used.   But its very pretty with a new BBL.  Very handy under 100yd woods gun.  Here NY 75yds is the avg shot.  it doesn't blow the animal apart like bigger guns do.  So I get to keep the rib roasts.

Neither one is a loser.  I put a B-Square mount on the Winchester and it does everything my Marlin 35rem does.  The 35 is better on Black Bears but dead is dead.  A 357mag with a 180gr rifle bullet in front works just fine too(IHMSA load).

Heck I may even have my M1 carbine redone in 10mm Norma.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 5:24:29 AM EDT
I think I'm headed marlin 357 folks.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 5:29:11 AM EDT
I have a 44wcf, a 45-70, and shoot several 30-30's.  They each have there place.  Sounds to me like your collection is seriously impared

44wcf is a fun plinking gun - can nail coffee cans at 100 yards open sights all day (44wcf is a predicessor to the 44 mag).  I handload so it is dirt cheep to shoot.  I think more white tail deer have been killed with this round than any other.

45-70 is a hoot when you want your target to react - kicks like a beast though.

30-30 is something inbetween.  Still kicks too much to be pleseant to shoot all day.  Think this is probably the most popular rifle round for hunting white tail.  Think of it this way - it is ballistically equivalent to a 7.62x39mm.

Link Posted: 10/6/2005 5:29:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
I think I'm headed marlin 357 folks.




Thank God! Wisdom prevails.


roy d....nominating Chapperjoe for President (we need someone able to make sound decisions and choices)
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 6:13:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
I think I'm headed marlin 357 folks.



Be honest with yourself, you're decision was made up on page 1.

the .357mag in a rifle will not do anything better than 30-30, but the 30-30 will do everything the .357mag wont, and then some.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 6:48:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FAIL-SAFE:

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
I think I'm headed marlin 357 folks.



Be honest with yourself, you're decision was made up on page 1.

the .357mag in a rifle will not do anything better than 30-30, but the 30-30 will do everything the .357mag wont, and then some.



well I said I voted 357 and the poll didn't convince me otherwise.  As I said somewhere in the thread, after I amde up my mind on 357 somewhere's around page 2 (?) the only question was marlin or winchester.

I listen to polls dude.  Arfkom DID pick my car!

archive link

Link Posted: 10/6/2005 7:20:46 AM EDT
I've got both, a rossi 357 and a Winchester 30-30, The rossi does not like 357 ammo, so I shoot 38's in it nice handy little rifle, couple that with a m36  3inch HB, I got a nice rig to take camping, It's the kind of weapon to have when you don't really want a high profile.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 10:14:52 AM EDT
Didja get da gun yet?
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 4:07:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By yekimak:
Didja get da gun yet?



not yet.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 5:06:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/8/2005 5:09:16 PM EDT by kavik]

Originally Posted By hk940:

Originally Posted By green-grizzly:
44 Mag.



i got to go with the .44 Mag. also.
much more knock down than either  30-30

the .44 and 30-30 are both 100 yd guns.  
357 maybe to 50 yds.


Link Posted: 10/8/2005 5:09:26 PM EDT
That poll is amazing.  Exactly 50/50  69 and 69.   whoa  
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 5:09:32 PM EDT
.30-30 has taken more game in the U.S. than any other cartridge in history.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 5:20:01 PM EDT
Hmmm, I have a .45-70 Guide Gun, but I have been thinking about a 30-30 for the trunk.  I might just have to go pick one up.

How much $$$$ are we talking about for a lever gun in .30-30?  Would a .357 lever gun be cheaper?
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 5:20:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:
.30-30 has taken more game in the U.S. than any other cartridge in history.



Ive heard that before too.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 5:21:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:

Originally Posted By yekimak:
Didja get da gun yet?



not yet.



Get on the ball man!  If only to shut up the crap between the .44 mag vs .30-30 crowd.  Gad Dang, you asked .357 vs .30-30...I am surprised some asshole did not pipe in and say 'Get a Glock" like they do in every other thread.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 5:23:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 5:39:17 PM EDT
Marlin over winchester because the feed ramp comes up on the first part of the upstroke rather than the last part of the downstroke. Much more reliable.
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