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Posted: 1/20/2013 9:55:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2013 9:55:36 PM EDT by NilDesperandum]
If there was no NFA, and thus no restrictions on barrel length, full auto, and suppressors, etc. what would be most common AR15 setup?

I'm guessing a lot of Mk18 clones with suppressors, and a lot of burst fire M16/A4 clones.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 9:56:10 PM EDT
What ever the flavor of the month tier seal gun was
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 9:56:30 PM EDT
11.5 with a can
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 9:56:49 PM EDT

That would kinda suck the cool out of the ultra shorties for me. I'd probably just roll with a 14.5", select fire, with a suppressor mount.

Link Posted: 1/20/2013 9:56:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2013 9:58:07 PM EDT by Tony-Ri]
Originally Posted By Truth2882:
11.5 with a can and happy switch


FIFY

I personally think the look of a 10-12" with a full-length rail and UBR is just perfect.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 9:57:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RolandBozz:
What ever the flavor of the month tier seal gun was


Also this.

Link Posted: 1/20/2013 9:58:16 PM EDT
And this

Link Posted: 1/20/2013 9:58:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tony-Ri:
Originally Posted By Truth2882:
11.5 with a can and happy switch


FIFY


going with this.
and probably in FDE
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 9:58:30 PM EDT
It would be years before I even get to AR15 setups. I would start with an M-60........
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 9:59:30 PM EDT
There would be a lot more innovation without the NFA. Who knows what we'd be running around with.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:01:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TitusAndronicus:
There would be a lot more innovation without the NFA. Who knows what we'd be running around with.


I don't think that is quite true considering that the military can and does acquire all manner of NFA stuff and therefore the incentive to innovate in that space is still substantial.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:04:20 PM EDT
I'd probably just go with the 14.5 inch barrel.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:04:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TitusAndronicus:
There would be a lot more innovation without the NFA. Who knows what we'd be running around with.

Good point.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:05:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tony-Ri:
Originally Posted By Truth2882:
11.5 with a can and happy switch


FIFY

I personally think the look of a 10-12" with a full-length rail and UBR is just perfect.


Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:05:28 PM EDT
Anyone else:
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:06:34 PM EDT
it would mirror what is in use with the military.

I think that Mk18's would be very popular.

I also think that there would be laws passed requiring silencers on the grounds of environmental and safety hazards. There would probably be laws to pinch people about unsuppressed shooting, and people would be bitching that the 2A garuntees their right to be loud as fuck and rupture ear drums.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:08:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NilDesperandum:
Originally Posted By TitusAndronicus:
There would be a lot more innovation without the NFA. Who knows what we'd be running around with.


I don't think that is quite true considering that the military can and does acquire all manner of NFA stuff and therefore the incentive to innovate in that space is still substantial.


There's always that, but the gov makes it obnoxious for clever independent folks to make full auto stuff tinkering in their garage. The NFA is a good example of the gov getting in the way of innovators.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:09:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NilDesperandum:
Anyone else:
http://www.dogfightink.com/mk18mod0.jpg


NFA isn't much of a block to many of us.

If I want a Mk18, I'm going to pay my 2 tax stamps and do it.

I can't afford to do a FA one, but many here can, and do.

However, if you look at what people who actually SHOOT their M-16's/RR/RDIAS/LL, etc ,etc's they don't really seem to go for the gucci uppers. They usually slap on whatever the fuck is laying around and go to town. Of course there are always exceptions, but those guys seem to be more interested in caliber compatibility than if their rifle looks like something Costa would shake their hand over owning.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:11:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TitusAndronicus:
Originally Posted By NilDesperandum:
Originally Posted By TitusAndronicus:
There would be a lot more innovation without the NFA. Who knows what we'd be running around with.


I don't think that is quite true considering that the military can and does acquire all manner of NFA stuff and therefore the incentive to innovate in that space is still substantial.


There's always that, but the gov makes it obnoxious for clever independent folks to make full auto stuff tinkering in their garage. The NFA is a good example of the gov getting in the way of innovators.


How are you going to innovate better full auto?

The LL is a goofy, but simple workaround. The RDIAS is another simple machine that takes advantage of the existing operation of the FCG. I don't think you are going to innovate off of those two setups. Of course, if there was no NFA, those items would not exist. Everything would accept a 3 position FCG and auto disco.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:11:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DanTSX:
it would mirror what is in use with the military.

I think that Mk18's would be very popular.

I also think that there would be laws passed requiring silencers on the grounds of environmental and safety hazards. There would probably be laws to pinch people about unsuppressed shooting, and people would be bitching that the 2A garuntees their right to be loud as fuck and rupture ear drums.


Sooo true.

I would have select fire and suppressed everything.

Also, super short 12GA side by side.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:12:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DanTSX:
it would mirror what is in use with the military.

I think that Mk18's would be very popular.

I also think that there would be laws passed requiring silencers on the grounds of environmental and safety hazards. There would probably be laws to pinch people about unsuppressed shooting, and people would be bitching that the 2A garuntees their right to be loud as fuck and rupture ear drums.

That is probably exactly what would happen
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:13:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gruntling:
Originally Posted By DanTSX:
it would mirror what is in use with the military.

I think that Mk18's would be very popular.

I also think that there would be laws passed requiring silencers on the grounds of environmental and safety hazards. There would probably be laws to pinch people about unsuppressed shooting, and people would be bitching that the 2A garuntees their right to be loud as fuck and rupture ear drums.


Sooo true.

I would have select fire and suppressed everything.

Also, super short 12GA side by side.


I would Conceal Carry a ..........


















Glock 18
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:16:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DanTSX:
Originally Posted By TitusAndronicus:
Originally Posted By NilDesperandum:
Originally Posted By TitusAndronicus:
There would be a lot more innovation without the NFA. Who knows what we'd be running around with.


I don't think that is quite true considering that the military can and does acquire all manner of NFA stuff and therefore the incentive to innovate in that space is still substantial.


There's always that, but the gov makes it obnoxious for clever independent folks to make full auto stuff tinkering in their garage. The NFA is a good example of the gov getting in the way of innovators.


How are you going to innovate better full auto?

The LL is a goofy, but simple workaround. The RDIAS is another simple machine that takes advantage of the existing operation of the FCG. I don't think you are going to innovate off of those two setups. Of course, if there was no NFA, those items would not exist. Everything would accept a 3 position FCG and auto disco.


I'm only suggesting we might be running around with something different. Disregarding my statement, we'd have whatever Gucci gun was in flavor. So today a MK18.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:19:20 PM EDT
I want to spout lots of crap about my perfect AR15 for cqb or HD BUT.....



wouldn't i just want a FA Suppressed tavor at the end of the day?
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:20:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2013 10:26:24 PM EDT by ForFreedomWeFight]
Originally Posted By TitusAndronicus:
There would be a lot more innovation without the NFA. Who knows what we'd be running around with.


This is true, but I imagine that SAW type weapons (the role the M249, LSW, and RPK fill) would be more advanced than they are now in particular. Plus I bet the technique for how to fire and employ a rifle on FA would also be more advanced at least to a small degree. True crew served weapons would probably would also be better (or different weapons normally used for it if the effectiveness of SAW's approach the level of a GPMG), but probably not as much due to expense (most civilians can't afford heavier weapons as a hobby like they can smaller guns, so demand and therefore added innovation would be less). A lot of guys into tacticool firearms would likely have one inexpensive GPMG type gun as their heaviest weapon. Without AOW laws, there would be some weird and useful concealable and/or disguised firearms out there without a doubt. Of course shotguns would almost universally have really short barrels other than ones for hunting. Long range shooting with large caliber firearms like AT rifles would probably be common. Single shot direct fire cannons would likely be how we look at .50 BMG rifles today in terms of recreation. Mortars would probably be common too, but innovation with them would likely be not as much because if you start getting too fancy with the shells things would get expensive fast. Skill with military type arms would probably be a LOT more common than it is now. I can probably think of more...

ETA: CC'ing PDW's (or having them in cars) would probably be common and PDW type SMG's probably would be a lot better and cheaper (think an advanced Skorpion vz.61 like firearms, but not in shitty .32 ACP) . Normal cheap WW2 Grease Gun and Sten Gun like SMG's would also be really common due to LOW cost and people would probably make them in their garage other than the rifled barrel (if they want to be fancy).
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:21:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2013 10:24:41 PM EDT by BSWilson]
Originally Posted By DanTSX:
Originally Posted By TitusAndronicus:
Originally Posted By NilDesperandum:
Originally Posted By TitusAndronicus:
There would be a lot more innovation without the NFA. Who knows what we'd be running around with.


I don't think that is quite true considering that the military can and does acquire all manner of NFA stuff and therefore the incentive to innovate in that space is still substantial.


There's always that, but the gov makes it obnoxious for clever independent folks to make full auto stuff tinkering in their garage. The NFA is a good example of the gov getting in the way of innovators.


How are you going to innovate better full auto?

The LL is a goofy, but simple workaround. The RDIAS is another simple machine that takes advantage of the existing operation of the FCG. I don't think you are going to innovate off of those two setups. Of course, if there was no NFA, those items would not exist. Everything would accept a 3 position FCG and auto disco.


Know how we can tell which of you have read "Unintended Consequences"...

The NFA has stifled innovation and development in arms development, this is a fact. The only question is to what degree.

Who knows what some guy in his garage might have perfected, maybe made the AN94 2-round burst concept more viable, or unlocked the key to caseless ammo, or any other number of things.



To answer the OP, my money'd be on military clones, M4's & CQBR's.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:22:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By djburnett:
I want to spout lots of crap about my perfect AR15 for cqb or HD BUT.....



wouldn't i just want a FA Suppressed tavor at the end of the day?


No.


OOB next to your temple?

Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:25:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2013 10:28:12 PM EDT by Loremsk]
Originally Posted By mustangduckk:

That would kinda suck the cool out of the ultra shorties for me. I'd probably just roll with a 14.5", select fire, with a suppressor mount.



This. FA trigger pack, 5.56mm chambered 14.5" 1/7" barrel, midlength gas piston, and a nice muffler. That's the primary functionality, the rest of it (furniture, optics) will just be icing on the cake.


ETA:

Originally Posted By DanTSX:

I would Conceal Carry a ..........


Glock 18


I've always had a bit of a soft spot for a Beretta M93r.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:34:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ForFreedomWeFight:
Originally Posted By TitusAndronicus:
There would be a lot more innovation without the NFA. Who knows what we'd be running around with.


This is true, but I imagine that SAW type weapons (the role the M249, LSW, and RPK fill) would be more advanced than they are now in particular. Plus I bet the technique for how to fire and employ a rifle on FA would also be more advanced at least to a small degree. True crew served weapons would probably would also be better (or different weapons normally used for it if the effectiveness of SAW's approach the level of a GPMG), but probably not as much due to expense (most civilians can't afford heavier weapons as a hobby like they can smaller guns, so demand and therefore added innovation would be less). A lot of guys into tacticool firearms would likely have one inexpensive GPMG type gun as their heaviest weapon. Without AOW laws, there would be some weird and useful concealable and/or disguised firearms out there without a doubt. Of course shotguns would almost universally have really short barrels other than ones for hunting. Long range shooting with large caliber firearms like AT rifles would probably be common. Single shot direct fire cannons would likely be how we look at .50 BMG rifles today in terms of recreation. Mortars would probably be common too, but innovation with them would likely be not as much because if you start getting too fancy with the shells things would get expensive fast. Skill with military type arms would probably be a LOT more common than it is now. I can probably think of more...

ETA: CC'ing PDW's (or having them in cars) would probably be common and PDW type SMG's probably would be a lot better and cheaper (think an advanced Skorpion vz.61 like firearms, but not in shitty .32 ACP) . Normal cheap WW2 Grease Gun and Sten Gun like SMG's would also be really common due to LOW cost and people would probably make them in their garage other than the rifled barrel (if they want to be fancy).


I agree that LMG and PDW's would be more advanced. Stoner63 setting the stage for later designs we would be much better off now.

Kel tec would be pitching some crazy shit too I bet.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:39:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2013 10:41:19 PM EDT by NilDesperandum]
I hate to say this but we would probably have seen one, if not more mass killings employing bipoded down SAW style LMGs if not GPMGs. They would be bad but probably not worse than what we've had.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:41:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NilDesperandum:
I hate to say this but we would probably have seen one, if not more mass killings employing bipoded down SAW style LMGs if not GMPGs. They would be bad but probably not worse than what we've had.


And we would had people carrying PDWs concealed to shoot back.......
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:41:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DanTSX:
Originally Posted By NilDesperandum:
I hate to say this but we would probably have seen one, if not more mass killings employing bipoded down SAW style LMGs if not GMPGs. They would be bad but probably not worse than what we've had.


And we would had people carrying PDWs concealed to shoot back.......


No doubt...

Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:42:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NilDesperandum:
I hate to say this but we would probably have seen one, if not more mass killings employing bipoded down SAW style LMGs if not GPMGs. They would be bad but probably not worse than what we've had.


no
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:43:25 PM EDT
If there were no NFA I wouldn't give a fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck about AR-15s.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:43:44 PM EDT
IMO alot more sbrs. Once you go short, 16" is for the birds.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:44:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NilDesperandum:
Originally Posted By DanTSX:
Originally Posted By NilDesperandum:
I hate to say this but we would probably have seen one, if not more mass killings employing bipoded down SAW style LMGs if not GMPGs. They would be bad but probably not worse than what we've had.


And we would had people carrying PDWs concealed to shoot back.......


No doubt...



That being said I've always dreaded what someone with ANY ranged firearm could do if they setup outside a school and had an inside man pull the fire alarm, most schools herd their kids outside via on or two entrances en mass and the shooter really would not have to aim. That + an emplaced LMG would be really fucking bad.

That being said I wouldn't care if the legalized MGs, etc.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:45:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DanTSX:
Originally Posted By djburnett:
I want to spout lots of crap about my perfect AR15 for cqb or HD BUT.....



wouldn't i just want a FA Suppressed tavor at the end of the day?


No.


OOB next to your temple?


que es la significa de esta palabra "OOB"
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:46:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By djburnett:

Originally Posted By DanTSX:
Originally Posted By djburnett:
I want to spout lots of crap about my perfect AR15 for cqb or HD BUT.....



wouldn't i just want a FA Suppressed tavor at the end of the day?


No.


OOB next to your temple?


que es la significa de esta palabra "OOB"


OOB significantes un bomba atraz su cabeza
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:47:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By djburnett:

Originally Posted By DanTSX:
Originally Posted By djburnett:
I want to spout lots of crap about my perfect AR15 for cqb or HD BUT.....



wouldn't i just want a FA Suppressed tavor at the end of the day?


No.


OOB next to your temple?


que es la significa de esta palabra "OOB"


Out of battery.

A round goes off before the bolt is locked in the barrel.

Bad things can happen.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:49:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DanTSX:
Originally Posted By djburnett:

Originally Posted By DanTSX:
Originally Posted By djburnett:
I want to spout lots of crap about my perfect AR15 for cqb or HD BUT.....



wouldn't i just want a FA Suppressed tavor at the end of the day?


No.


OOB next to your temple?


que es la significa de esta palabra "OOB"


Out of battery.

A round goes off before the bolt is locked in the barrel.

Bad things can happen.


Oh god... I never thought of that... that would be so bad... I wonder if the Israelis or Aussies have ever had that happen with their issue bullpups.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:49:47 PM EDT
FA suppressed 10" beltfed 12 gauge.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:50:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By iwouldntknow:
Originally Posted By NilDesperandum:
I hate to say this but we would probably have seen one, if not more mass killings employing bipoded down SAW style LMGs if not GPMGs. They would be bad but probably not worse than what we've had.


no


Yes
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:50:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2013 10:51:54 PM EDT by glockluv]
n/m
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:51:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By iwouldntknow:
Originally Posted By djburnett:

Originally Posted By DanTSX:
Originally Posted By djburnett:
I want to spout lots of crap about my perfect AR15 for cqb or HD BUT.....



wouldn't i just want a FA Suppressed tavor at the end of the day?


No.


OOB next to your temple?


que es la significa de esta palabra "OOB"


OOB significantes un bomba atraz su cabeza

Hurrumph. it means i have a bomb behind my head?


Order of Battle????
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:51:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By glockluv:
Originally Posted By NilDesperandum:
I hate to say this but we would probably have seen one, if not more mass killings employing bipoded down SAW style LMGs if not GPMGs. They would be bad but probably not worse than what we've had.


wtf is this shit?

And how do you have 549 posts in 2 weeks? Is this the sort of contributions we can continue to expect


I was just making an observation.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:53:25 PM EDT
14.5" suppressed AR with select fire
Glock 18
Super shorty
Fully auto 12GA just to make me giggle like a school girl
Fully auto suppressed .22


Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:53:49 PM EDT
No NFA? There would be a run on hacksaw blades.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:53:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NilDesperandum:
Originally Posted By DanTSX:
Originally Posted By djburnett:

Originally Posted By DanTSX:
Originally Posted By djburnett:
I want to spout lots of crap about my perfect AR15 for cqb or HD BUT.....



wouldn't i just want a FA Suppressed tavor at the end of the day?


No.


OOB next to your temple?


que es la significa de esta palabra "OOB"


Out of battery.

A round goes off before the bolt is locked in the barrel.

Bad things can happen.


Oh god... I never thought of that... that would be so bad... I wonder if the Israelis or Aussies have ever had that happen with their issue bullpups.



It's mainly an issue with goofballs doing mag dumps. Trained soldiers are not at too much risk of it, nut it can happen even on just clambering a round really.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:55:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By djburnett:

Originally Posted By iwouldntknow:
Originally Posted By djburnett:

Originally Posted By DanTSX:
Originally Posted By djburnett:
I want to spout lots of crap about my perfect AR15 for cqb or HD BUT.....



wouldn't i just want a FA Suppressed tavor at the end of the day?


No.


OOB next to your temple?


que es la significa de esta palabra "OOB"


OOB significantes un bomba atraz su cabeza

Hurrumph. it means i have a bomb behind my head?


Order of Battle????


I couldn't think of the word for beside.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:57:16 PM EDT
because of blocking the ejection? I guess you can't limp wrist a bullpup.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 10:58:29 PM EDT
ade'mas (one word, used notation for the accent)
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