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Posted: 3/16/2011 4:22:07 AM EST
A friend of mine and I both had stupid deaths in the family this past weekend. In my family, a 24 yr guy died of an overdose. His obituary was total BS. He was a looser, drunk, and junkie ... just like his father.

In am friends family, another young adult shot himself and died... supposedly while cleaning a gun. Now, I've heard the stories and have know people involve in shooting where one was drunk cleaning a gun and shot someone else. OK. I can see it. But, "accidentally" shooting one's self while cleaining a firearm... and dying? I don't even see how that is possible. It has to be intentional suicide.

If you know how they do it, please explain.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:22:47 AM EST
They leave ammunition in the weapon and pull the trigger with a round in the chamber.

Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:25:11 AM EST
Darwin at work.....
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:25:18 AM EST
Natural selection. Not everyone should own guns. Just because you have the right own them, doesn't mean they're for you.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:25:53 AM EST
First Post
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:26:26 AM EST
failure to follow the 4 rules.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:26:49 AM EST
Not as many as reported.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:27:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By peekay:
They leave ammunition in the weapon and pull the trigger with a round in the chamber.



With it pointed at themselves? At a vital organ? I can't buy it.


Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:27:37 AM EST
Face it. Some people are just fucking morons.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:27:45 AM EST
Failure to follow the simple rules of handling firearms...multiple failures.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:28:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/16/2011 4:28:37 AM EST by ykluas]
Originally Posted By kaneroy:
failure to follow the 4 rules.



Still, seems more a danger to others, or shooting one's foot, and not killing one's self.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:28:54 AM EST
They don't know anything about gun safety and don't bother to make sure the weapon in clear and pull the trigger before cleaning it. Or, its a cover story for a suicide that the family doesn't want to admit happened.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:29:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By ykluas:
Originally Posted By peekay:
They leave ammunition in the weapon and pull the trigger with a round in the chamber.



With it pointed at themselves? At a vital organ? I can't buy it.




Agreed. I can see shooting yourself in the leg or hand by accident but,

Killing yourself? i call suicide ...... sorry
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:31:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By ykluas:
Originally Posted By peekay:
They leave ammunition in the weapon and pull the trigger with a round in the chamber.



With it pointed at themselves? At a vital organ? I can't buy it.



They were inspecting the bore?
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:33:30 AM EST
I honestly have no idea, either.

But I know they're making better idiots these days... and nothing surprises me.

I'm shocked we haven't seen someone beat themselves to death with a framing hammer while they were attempting to put it away.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:33:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By ykluas:
Originally Posted By peekay:
They leave ammunition in the weapon and pull the trigger with a round in the chamber.



With it pointed at themselves? At a vital organ? I can't buy it.




Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:34:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/16/2011 4:36:41 AM EST by Tango7]
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:37:00 AM EST
Little bit of each. Suicides and morons. Some people think cleaning a gun means wiping down the outside. They start polishing the trigger with a rag... Boom.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:37:31 AM EST
If you ever spend any appreciable amount of time with non-firearms folks while they actually handle firearms, none of this shit would surprise you. People, in general, are blissfuly stupid.

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Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:38:26 AM EST
Or, its a cover story for a suicide that the family doesn't want to admit happened.


This is what my father told me 40 years ago when a fellow cop shot himself in Las Vegas while "cleaning his gun". They were cops in Illinois and he was on vacation in Vegas.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:38:50 AM EST
Some are suicides.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:39:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By tc2k11:
Originally Posted By ykluas:
Originally Posted By peekay:
They leave ammunition in the weapon and pull the trigger with a round in the chamber.



With it pointed at themselves? At a vital organ? I can't buy it.



They were inspecting the bore?


With a round chambered.... AND THEIR FINGER (or toe) ON THE TRIGGER? There is nothing natural about holding a gun in that position.

Besides, by the time I inspect the bore, the firearm will not function.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:42:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By ykluas:
A friend of mine and I both had stupid deaths in the family this past weekend. In my family, a 24 yr guy died of an overdose. His obituary was total BS. He was a looser, drunk, and junkie ... just like his father.

In am friends family, another young adult shot himself and died... supposedly while cleaning a gun. Now, I've heard the stories and have know people involve in shooting where one was drunk cleaning a gun and shot someone else. OK. I can see it. But, "accidentally" shooting one's self while cleaining a firearm... and dying? I don't even see how that is possible. It has to be intentional suicide.

If you know how they do it, please explain.


It's either a polite way to describe or characterize a likely suicide (for insurance, benefit, or just appearance reasons), or the person had a ND before the gun was disassembled for cleaning.

Guns disassembled or opened up for cleaning can't fire. So those are really the only possibilities.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:42:39 AM EST
Originally Posted By NoStockBikes:
Little bit of each. Suicides and morons. Some people think cleaning a gun means wiping down the outside. They start polishing the trigger with a rag... Boom.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Heck, I have wiped some off. Still, they don't just go boom, and I am not about to point it at my heart or head.

Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:42:41 AM EST
Wait, you guys aren't putting the barrel in your mouth and pulling the trigger as part of your function check?
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:43:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By ykluas:
Originally Posted By tc2k11:
Originally Posted By ykluas:
Originally Posted By peekay:
They leave ammunition in the weapon and pull the trigger with a round in the chamber.



With it pointed at themselves? At a vital organ? I can't buy it.



They were inspecting the bore?


With a round chambered.... AND THEIR FINGER (or toe) ON THE TRIGGER? There is nothing natural about holding a gun in that position.

Besides, by the time I inspect the bore, the firearm will not function.


I would surmise that the headshots are more likely to be intentional, while the Darwin winners will be more likely to bleed out from femoral artery, etc.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:45:12 AM EST
Heck, I don't jump when someone drops a handgun. Just don't ever try to catch it. Revolvers and Pistols (generally), won't just go boom.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:46:07 AM EST
Originally Posted By NoStockBikes:
Originally Posted By ykluas:
Originally Posted By tc2k11:
Originally Posted By ykluas:
Originally Posted By peekay:
They leave ammunition in the weapon and pull the trigger with a round in the chamber.



With it pointed at themselves? At a vital organ? I can't buy it.



They were inspecting the bore?


With a round chambered.... AND THEIR FINGER (or toe) ON THE TRIGGER? There is nothing natural about holding a gun in that position.

Besides, by the time I inspect the bore, the firearm will not function.


I would surmise that the headshots are more likely to be intentional, while the Darwin winners will be more likely to bleed out from femoral artery, etc.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


This is all I could EVER imagine.

Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:46:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/16/2011 4:49:09 AM EST by NoStockBikes]
Originally Posted By ykluas:
Originally Posted By NoStockBikes:
Little bit of each. Suicides and morons. Some people think cleaning a gun means wiping down the outside. They start polishing the trigger with a rag... Boom.


Heck, I have wiped some off. Still, they don't just go boom, and I am not about to point it at my heart or head.



If you were stupid, it might. Load a round, point it in a safe direction, and rub it like you voted for Obama. It'll go off. Maybe not the first time,maybe not the second time, but eventually, you will put enough pressure on it to trip.

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Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:51:03 AM EST
It's not easy cleaning a gun while driving a tractor and whitling at the same time.

Most are suicides, accident is used so the priest will still come to the funeral.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:51:18 AM EST
Someone I know failed the 4 rules, did not clear the chamber whn cleaning and killed a guy point blank shot to the throat.
Sorry the times for hanging ar9ound were over.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:54:18 AM EST
I agree with you. “Cleaning a gun and it went off” is probably a euphemism for several different things…

Playing with a gun he thought was unloaded.
Drunk and acting stupid with a gun.
Committed suicide
Carrying a gun around the house and pulled the trigger due to really, really bad muscle memory training.
Thought he heard a noise and reflexively shot at the cat, or his wife.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:54:34 AM EST
Originally Posted By ykluas:
Originally Posted By tc2k11:
Originally Posted By ykluas:
Originally Posted By peekay:
They leave ammunition in the weapon and pull the trigger with a round in the chamber.



With it pointed at themselves? At a vital organ? I can't buy it.



They were inspecting the bore?


With a round chambered.... AND THEIR FINGER (or toe) ON THE TRIGGER? There is nothing natural about holding a gun in that position.

Besides, by the time I inspect the bore, the firearm will not function.

I didn't think it was necessary to specify "moron."
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 4:56:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/16/2011 5:03:26 AM EST by ykluas]
I like Glocks and have 4 or 5. But, I hate the process to take them apart. I bet I check them several times, and show them to anyone near by before I disassemble them. I still see it as impossible to accidently kill yourself with them.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 5:04:18 AM EST

While I can completely buy that it's a discrete way to avoid the word "suicide" ... I have absolutely no doubt in the capability of a determined idiot to unintentionally off themselves in the most complex, difficult, and unlikely of scenarios.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 5:07:58 AM EST
"Cleaning" = newspeak for finger fucking

It's people who lack the mental commitment to safety that get in trouble. When you're familiar with firearms, picking one up begins a sequence of well-practiced actions. You engage your firing hand grip, finger off the trigger. You check the chamber and the magazine. Sometimes you want it to be loaded, so it's intentionally left that way. You find the safety, if it exists, and confirm its position. You double-check muzzle direction. If it's time to shoot, you acquire the sights, acquire your target, then remove the safety, then squeeze the trigger.

Some people think that they can "practice" by going through that entire motion, with a loaded gun, and just remember not to pull the trigger. That they can just pick up their gun, whenever it strikes them to do so, and run through it "to keep it fresh." They go faster and faster to hone their speed. Draw/pick up, grip, sights, target, safety... maybe they even place their finger on the trigger but don't squeeze... safety back on, put the gun down. Repeat. They don't bother to unload it because they're confident that they won't pull that trigger. They just ignored rule #1. They are not treating the firearm as if it were loaded.

It only takes one time to instinctively, and perhaps subconsciously, take that mental jump and squeeze off a round. You're going through the sequence, trying to make it second nature, but you're forgetting something very, very important. You're skipping the shoot/no shoot step. That mental check where you evaluate your target. We might call it, "know your target and what is beyond/aside it."

The fact is, that safety should not come off (if applicable) and the muzzle should not cover the target until you've determined that you're prepared to shoot it. "Never point a gun at something you are not prepared to destroy."


But people get complacent. They "practice" with a loaded gun a thousand times and never end up firing the gun. They think they're safe because they won't pull the trigger. They know they don't want to pull the trigger. But by skipping over the rules and making exceptions, they're training their brains to do it wrong. It's an easy mistake to make, because you want to practice, and you want to do it when the idea strikes you. But that's how people end up with holes in their televisions.

It's a great idea to practice. But you need to follow a strict regimen when you do.
* Set aside the time to do it. If you don't have the time, don't do it.
* Leave ALL ammunition, whether the firearm is chambered for it or not, in a separate room or in the safe.
* Check, visually and physically, that the firearm and all magazines are empty.
* Use only a safe backstop. Do not aim at vases, pictures, televisions, etc. If you want to use multiple targets, practice in a location that allows you to have multiple SAFE targets.
* Follow ALL the rules, EVERY time.

If you do anything else, it's only a matter of time before you touch one off without thinking.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 5:10:03 AM EST
Originally Posted By ykluas:
I like Glocks and have 4 or 5. But, I hate the process to take them apart. I bet I check them several times, and show them to anyone near by before I disassemble them. I still see it as impossible to accidently kill yourself with them.


Well when your brain actually functions, and talks to your digits, it is hard to kill yourself.

But when all you have upstairs is a barely functioning brainstem that makes sure you rob the world of oxygen one breath at a time, it becomes quite easy to accdentally off yourself.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 5:10:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/16/2011 5:10:47 AM EST by Mountain_Snipe]
I've never understood this. You have to be a complete moron to have a NG, and even more retarded to actually shoot yourself.

No excuses.

CHECK YOUR FUCKING WEAPON
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 5:23:56 AM EST
Originally Posted By Mountain_Snipe:
I've never understood this. You have to be a complete moron to have a NG, and even more retarded to actually shoot yourself.

No excuses.

CHECK YOUR FUCKING WEAPON


I really wouldn't say I was retarded when I had mine. But I did have a major dumb ass moment. And yes I did shoot myself.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 5:25:07 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 5:26:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By Mountain_Snipe:
I've never understood this. You have to be a complete moron to have a NG, and even more retarded to actually shoot yourself.

No excuses.

CHECK YOUR FUCKING WEAPON


You would be amazed. I was lucky when I had mine...it was a blank round. Nevertheless, I squeezed the trigger on a gun that I should have cleared and didn't. Cheapest important lesson I ever learned.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 5:27:16 AM EST
Because there were not cleaning the firearm in the first place.....they were being stupid with a loaded gun.....looks better to say "I was cleaning it..and it just went off" than to say.."I was practicing my fast draw"
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 5:28:02 AM EST
Originally Posted By blance_81:
Originally Posted By Mountain_Snipe:
I've never understood this. You have to be a complete moron to have a NG, and even more retarded to actually shoot yourself.

No excuses.

CHECK YOUR FUCKING WEAPON


I really wouldn't say I was retarded when I had mine. But I did have a major dumb ass moment. And yes I did shoot myself.


Where did the round hit? I can imagine holstering a weapon and having a NG.

Link Posted: 3/16/2011 5:28:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By Ventilator:
Originally Posted By Mountain_Snipe:
I've never understood this. You have to be a complete moron to have a NG, and even more retarded to actually shoot yourself.

No excuses.

CHECK YOUR FUCKING WEAPON


You would be amazed. I was lucky when I had mine...it was a blank round. Nevertheless, I squeezed the trigger on a gun that I should have cleared and didn't. Cheapest important lesson I ever learned.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Where did the round hit? I can imagine holstering a weapon and having a NG.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 5:30:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/16/2011 5:38:05 AM EST by blance_81]
Originally Posted By ykluas:
Originally Posted By blance_81:
Originally Posted By Mountain_Snipe:
I've never understood this. You have to be a complete moron to have a NG, and even more retarded to actually shoot yourself.

No excuses.

CHECK YOUR FUCKING WEAPON


I really wouldn't say I was retarded when I had mine. But I did have a major dumb ass moment. And yes I did shoot myself.


Where did the round hit? I can imagine holstering a weapon and having a NG.



Upper inside thigh and ended up 3/4 way down leg and on opposite side.

I just finished shooting and went to sit on my tailgate. When I released the slide back I automatically thought it was empty. Well I had a dumbass moment and pulled the trigger and boom it went.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 5:31:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By ykluas:
Originally Posted By NoStockBikes:
Originally Posted By ykluas:
Originally Posted By tc2k11:
Originally Posted By ykluas:
Originally Posted By peekay:
They leave ammunition in the weapon and pull the trigger with a round in the chamber.



With it pointed at themselves? At a vital organ? I can't buy it.



They were inspecting the bore?


With a round chambered.... AND THEIR FINGER (or toe) ON THE TRIGGER? There is nothing natural about holding a gun in that position.

Besides, by the time I inspect the bore, the firearm will not function.


I would surmise that the headshots are more likely to be intentional, while the Darwin winners will be more likely to bleed out from femoral artery, etc.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


This is all I could EVER imagine.



You forgot some let others look down the barrel to make sure
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 5:33:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By ykluas:
Originally Posted By Ventilator:
Originally Posted By Mountain_Snipe:
I've never understood this. You have to be a complete moron to have a NG, and even more retarded to actually shoot yourself.

No excuses.

CHECK YOUR FUCKING WEAPON


You would be amazed. I was lucky when I had mine...it was a blank round. Nevertheless, I squeezed the trigger on a gun that I should have cleared and didn't. Cheapest important lesson I ever learned.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Where did the round hit? I can imagine holstering a weapon and having a NG.


This took place about 8 years ago. It was a blank round inside an armory. I had the muzzle inside the clearing barrel, but I was just going through the motions and not visually verifying clear chamber. Bolt forward, selector to semi, trigger pull for rack-safe when boom! I should have been the third person to clear the weapon prior to it going in the rack.

Everytime I clear a weapon (which is everytime I pick one up and put one away) I think of that moment.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 5:33:51 AM EST
Some people could fuck up a bread sandwhich.
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 5:41:43 AM EST
Originally Posted By CyberIntel:
Some people could fuck up a bread sandwhich.


And a bread sandwich too!

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 3/16/2011 6:31:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/16/2011 6:36:15 AM EST by ErickM]
I had an ND once when I was 20 or 21, I spent days blaming it on the ammo, unseated primer or something to anyone who knew about it and would listen before I finally manned up and admitted it was my own dumbass fault.

Auto-ordnance 1911. I had all my gear on the hood of my car, car is pointing towards a creek where people are normally standing and shooting, no one there at the time thankfully they were taking a break behind me but I'm still way behind what was considered the firing line. Slide is locked back, put a new mag in, hit the slide release and BOOM! It put .45"x4" long "scar" in my hood pointing forward toward the creek.

I didn't touch the trigger but I failed to keep it pointing in a safe direction and I was changing mags behind the firing line. If I had kept it pointing a safe direction and been at the firing line I'd have a legitimate claim of a cartridge with an unseated primer firing on its own and wouldn't have cared.

Since I didn't have it pointing safe I consider it an ND even though I didn't touch the trigger, and I'm kinda glad it happened because like a poster above me said, I think about that one tenth-of-a-second of period of time in my life every time I touch a gun.

Link Posted: 3/16/2011 6:35:51 AM EST
Insurance pays double for accident, zero for suicide.

Just saying.

And what made them think it was "cleaning" accident? Did the dead had a bunch of rags and bottles of Hoppe laying around? He had the gun apart, and while swabbing the barrel it went KB?
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