[ARCHIVED THREAD] - GAME CHANGER: Toshiba develops EV battery that can go 200 Miles after only 6 minutes of charge (Page 2 of 5)
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This, better have a 3 phase plug in to transfer that much juice in 5 minutes. Quoted:
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What REALLY REALL REALLY gets neglected in this "200 miles of range in 5 minutes of charging!" is... that is a FUCKTON of power being transferred in such a short period of time. You need a HUGE YUGE YUUUUUUUGGGEEEEE source of power to push that much energy into a battery. Yeah, I think electric cars are good, and I think they'll get much cheaper and much more practical, in part by things like this battery, and yes, I do think that infrastructure will be developed to do this superfast charging... but I always think it's weird as fuck no one bothers to do the math about how much power it actually takes to charge a battery like that in such a short time. --ETA: See Below, my mental division lost decimal places. 
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This, better have a 3 phase plug in to transfer that much juice in 5 minutes. Quoted:
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What REALLY REALL REALLY gets neglected in this "200 miles of range in 5 minutes of charging!" is... that is a FUCKTON of power being transferred in such a short period of time. You need a HUGE YUGE YUUUUUUUGGGEEEEE source of power to push that much energy into a battery. Yeah, I think electric cars are good, and I think they'll get much cheaper and much more practical, in part by things like this battery, and yes, I do think that infrastructure will be developed to do this superfast charging... but I always think it's weird as fuck no one bothers to do the math about how much power it actually takes to charge a battery like that in such a short time. We're talking ~60kWh in 5 minutes. 720kW is the level of power you'd need. At 480V per phase, you'd need 1000A of current. Yes, ONE THOUSAND AMPS of current. That's a fuckton of power, and you ain't getting that in your garage or workshop at home. ETA, redid numbers, that would be about 500A, not 1000A. Going off of ~60kWh, that's 720kW/5 min, which shows how much energy would need to be absorbed in that timeframe. 720,000W / 480V = 1500A. 1500A / 3 phases = 500A per phase. |
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I also want to throw out there that the charge time is all good and fine, but what would it matter if your 200 mile range battery can charge in 5 minutes, if it weighs 3000lb?
Energy density is the HUGE hurdle for batteries, not charge time. Most battery cells can charge in a pretty reasonable amount of time as they are, but most charging systems in vehicles can't charge as fast as the batteries could realistically absorb the power. (heat management and degradation aside) Now, lots of people here have said that batteries need to get to an equal amount of energy storage per gallon that gasoline has. This isn't really true. A gallon of gasoline has about ~34kWh worth of energy (thermal). Not all of that is converted into work, of course. So if we take a pretty fuel efficient vehicle that gets 40MPG (not a hybrid, straight ICE power) as the measuring stick, we only need a similar volume of battery to get that range. This is easy to guesstimate, as a Chevy Volt does about 40 miles on ~10.5kWh (I owned a Volt for 3 years, this is my hands on "I actually owned one" experience). Thus a battery really only needs to get to about 10-12kWh per gallon volume/weight to have the same usable energy as a gallon of gas. |
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480 3 phase @ 20 amps would do it, but how many places are going to have that handy for surge use? Not at any sort of affordable rate. Quoted:
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What REALLY REALL REALLY gets neglected in this "200 miles of range in 5 minutes of charging!" is... that is a FUCKTON of power being transferred in such a short period of time. You need a HUGE YUGE YUUUUUUUGGGEEEEE source of power to push that much energy into a battery. Yeah, I think electric cars are good, and I think they'll get much cheaper and much more practical, in part by things like this battery, and yes, I do think that infrastructure will be developed to do this superfast charging... but I always think it's weird as fuck no one bothers to do the math about how much power it actually takes to charge a battery like that in such a short time. Such a circuit would take a little more than 2 hours to charge such a battery. See my previous post about this, it's gonna take a lot more than 20A on a three phase circuit to charge this bad boy! |
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This, better have a 3 phase plug in to transfer that much juice in 5 minutes. Quoted:
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What REALLY REALL REALLY gets neglected in this "200 miles of range in 5 minutes of charging!" is... that is a FUCKTON of power being transferred in such a short period of time. You need a HUGE YUGE YUUUUUUUGGGEEEEE source of power to push that much energy into a battery. Yeah, I think electric cars are good, and I think they'll get much cheaper and much more practical, in part by things like this battery, and yes, I do think that infrastructure will be developed to do this superfast charging... but I always think it's weird as fuck no one bothers to do the math about how much power it actually takes to charge a battery like that in such a short time. To recharge 30kwh in 6 minutes: 30khw = 1800kwm divided by 6 minute recharge = 300kw draw. Say three cars charging at a time = 900kw or almost 1 megawatt draw. I think we will need a grid upgrade. |
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Nope, it wouldn't. 480V x 3 phases x 20A = 28,800W, or 28kW, which would be easily extrapolated into kWh, as 28.8kWh in an HOUR of charging. Vehicles like the Chevy Bolt use ~60kWh to travel a bit more than 200 miles. Such a circuit would take a little more than 2 hours to charge such a battery. See my previous post about this, it's gonna take a lot more than 20A on a three phase circuit to charge this bad boy! Quoted:
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What REALLY REALL REALLY gets neglected in this "200 miles of range in 5 minutes of charging!" is... that is a FUCKTON of power being transferred in such a short period of time. You need a HUGE YUGE YUUUUUUUGGGEEEEE source of power to push that much energy into a battery. Yeah, I think electric cars are good, and I think they'll get much cheaper and much more practical, in part by things like this battery, and yes, I do think that infrastructure will be developed to do this superfast charging... but I always think it's weird as fuck no one bothers to do the math about how much power it actually takes to charge a battery like that in such a short time. Such a circuit would take a little more than 2 hours to charge such a battery. See my previous post about this, it's gonna take a lot more than 20A on a three phase circuit to charge this bad boy!
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Hmm, To recharge 30kwh in 6 minutes: 30khw = 1800kwm divided by 6 minute recharge = 300kw draw. Say three cars charging at a time = 900kw or almost 1 megawatt draw. I think we will need a grid upgrade. |
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http://bricksafe.com/files/nathan/lego-reviews/lego-movie-set-reviews/70802-bad-cops-pursuit/IMG_4707.JPG https://i.imgur.com/7wjQud8.jpg https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/secondary/Dubai-robocop-870684.jpg http://dailytimes.com.pk/static/uploads/original/08587af5f07e21adcaaea99f9da88eaa.jpg https://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/selectall/2016/07/05/05-knightscope-uber-robot.w710.h473.jpg https://sglmoviestore.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/chopping-mall-1.png https://spooktasticblog.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/chopping-mall-protector.png?w=800 http://boomstickcomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/gog.jpeg Swear to god it’s what keeps me up at night.  DARPA - Atlas Proto Robot Masters Stairs [720p] |
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MOST charging would likely be done at home, in one's garage, where fast charging won't be practical. On a day-to-day driving basis, 2-3 hours of charging at 240V 2 phase (30A) will recharge at least enough for ~40 miles. Greater than 70% of people drive 40 miles or less per day, so this type of charging will satisfy the vast majority of owners. Off peak, we have plenty of power generation... but the poster above is most correct, we need MORE NUKEZ!! Because it's a good, clean, dense source of baseload power generation. Quoted:
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Hmm, To recharge 30kwh in 6 minutes: 30khw = 1800kwm divided by 6 minute recharge = 300kw draw. Say three cars charging at a time = 900kw or almost 1 megawatt draw. I think we will need a grid upgrade. MOST charging would likely be done at home, in one's garage, where fast charging won't be practical. On a day-to-day driving basis, 2-3 hours of charging at 240V 2 phase (30A) will recharge at least enough for ~40 miles. Greater than 70% of people drive 40 miles or less per day, so this type of charging will satisfy the vast majority of owners. Off peak, we have plenty of power generation... but the poster above is most correct, we need MORE NUKEZ!! Because it's a good, clean, dense source of baseload power generation. Why do people keep posting that crap? Has anyone even calculated the energy draw of 2 million EVs? Because that is less than 1% of the registered/titled vehicles. I do not care if you are talking off peak overnight hours, excluding the fact that there are industries that only run in those hours, that is a significant energy draw. Which takes even more time to get approved and built than a new coal power plant. |
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Yes, what sort of service would that be? Quoted:
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AC or DC charging?  That’s some serious power to charge that quickly.
The conversion of that much power to controlled charging would also be a mess, even at 98% electronics efficiency, you lose another big chunk based on battery efficiency as well. Loss of efficiency = heat, lots and lots of heat. |
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Wonder what sizes/voltages can be maintained and at what weight.
Wonder what discharge capacity and rate they have. After having used the hell out of tons of LiPo packs for my drones I have puffed/destroyed plenty of packs by exceeding their discharge rates. 16 volt pack at 100+ amps tends to kill little 1300mah packs of lesser quality. If they can make smaller packs that are able to charge super quickly, discharge at a super high rate, and take tons of cycles then I will be on board with my expectations of them adapting to larger vehicles. |
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Gonna put this right near the rest of the stack of "battery breakthrough game changer never been dun befo" items and wait until it's actually on the fucking market before getting excited. There are dozens of announcements like this every year, none of them fruition into anything at all. |
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This is a pretty big deal. Capacity, lifespan and charging time have always been the Achilles heel of Electric cars. All of them have improved significantly over the last decade, but not to a point where most people can honestly swap out a gas vehicle, largely due to range/charge time considerations. (Cost is another issue, but we'll leave that alone) You make a battery system that can get you 300 miles and be charged back to full while you're eating lunch? Game changer is right. |
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Why do people keep posting that crap? Has anyone even calculated the energy draw of 2 million EVs? Because that is less than 1% of the registered/titled vehicles. I do not care if you are talking off peak overnight hours, excluding the fact that there are industries that only run in those hours, that is a significant energy draw. Which takes even more time to get approved and built than a new coal power plant. |
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Uhh... hate to crap on the party guys, but we have a problem.... http://www.businessinsider.com/niobium-the-critical-strategic-metal-thats-only-mined-two-places-on-earth-2010-12 Welp TNO was neat idea, what else do they have? Should start seeing those become more popular in the next five years. |
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I did, when you brought up this idiotic point last time. 2 million cars would draw ~80 billion kWh a year, equal to 0.2% of US electricity consumption. Most of this consumption would occur during off-peak hours when there is plenty of spare capacity. Quoted:
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Why do people keep posting that crap? Has anyone even calculated the energy draw of 2 million EVs? Because that is less than 1% of the registered/titled vehicles. I do not care if you are talking off peak overnight hours, excluding the fact that there are industries that only run in those hours, that is a significant energy draw. Which takes even more time to get approved and built than a new coal power plant. |
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MOST charging would likely be done at home, in one's garage, where fast charging won't be practical. On a day-to-day driving basis, 2-3 hours of charging at 240V 2 phase (30A) will recharge at least enough for ~40 miles. Greater than 70% of people drive 40 miles or less per day, so this type of charging will satisfy the vast majority of owners. Off peak, we have plenty of power generation... but the poster above is most correct, we need MORE NUKEZ!! Because it's a good, clean, dense source of baseload power generation. Quoted:
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Hmm, To recharge 30kwh in 6 minutes: 30khw = 1800kwm divided by 6 minute recharge = 300kw draw. Say three cars charging at a time = 900kw or almost 1 megawatt draw. I think we will need a grid upgrade. |
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They have a rather low (well, high, relatively) internal resistance that causes them to self-discharge at about the same rate energy is used from them. That's why they are only used as short term backups, and not even large enough for a UPS. Once you get above 6V max, they really deteriorate with each charge/discharge and self-discharge, when talking the 400V from lithium battery packs in cars, capcitors are larger than lithium ion batteries, and have lower mAH/cc. The biggest issue they're going to run into is that our power grid/outlets aren't built for continual 10kW surges when several people in a row decide to charge their car fast. (Estimated power draw after losses) Especially during daytime, when brownouts already happen if more than ¾ of customers have AC running. That and the change in "peak hours" crap with how they do tier structuring. I had a couple 430 dollar electric bills this summer here in Ca where it can hit 110 or more last summer. I was waiting for the return of the rolling blackouts bullshit from the 2000's. And here the asshats in Ca are trying to suggest solar can off set the needs of major grid needs if we were to hit their utopian dreams for all electric cars? Yeah how about no.... we will just get rationed and controlled even more than we already do. |
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I'm all for electric cars taking over most of market share. Trucks
should not be touched tho. But while they are finally make leaps and bounds in battery tech the problem will soon be the outdated electric grid that we have. Does not matter how fast you can charge your car when a storm can take out entire regions.  Not to mention the lack of production capability once everyone is driving electric cars. I doubt they can upgrade the electric grid fast enough to keep pace. |
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What REALLY REALL REALLY gets neglected in this "200 miles of range in 5 minutes of charging!" is... that is a FUCKTON of power being transferred in such a short period of time. You need a HUGE YUGE YUUUUUUUGGGEEEEE source of power to push that much energy into a battery. Yeah, I think electric cars are good, and I think they'll get much cheaper and much more practical, in part by things like this battery, and yes, I do think that infrastructure will be developed to do this superfast charging... but I always think it's weird as fuck no one bothers to do the math about how much power it actually takes to charge a battery like that in such a short time. 1300mah pack charging at 1.3 amps or 1800mah pack charging at 1.8 amps... so yeah 30 minutes to charge regardless. If I were to try to charge them at 6 times the rate they would be puffed and destroyed in no time. And the bigger packs needed for a car? What maybe 100amps or more for charging whatever sixe battery it is? |
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Your calculations were GIGO. Quoted:
Your calculations were GIGO. I'd ask you to disprove it mathematically but you just do not understand any of the concepts you are arguing and it's painfully obvious. You have no frame of reference because you don't even know enough of what you are arguing about to know what you don't know. The average car drives 12,000 miles in a year.
A Tesla model 3 or Chevy Bolt can get just under 4 miles per every KWh 12,000 / 3.8 = 3,158 3,158 x 2,635,000 = 8,321,330,000 Kwh 8.32 billion KWh What is US electricity demand? https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3 "In 2016, about 4.08 trillion kilowatthours (kWh) of electricity1 were generated at utility-scale facilities in the United States" 8,320,330,000 / 4,080,000,000,000 = 0.00204 0.2% of US electricity demand. A fucking rounding error. |
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I'm all for electric cars taking over most of market share. Trucks should not be touched tho. But while they are finally make leaps and bounds in battery tech the problem will soon be the outdated electric grid that we have. Does not matter how fast you can charge your car when a storm can take out entire regions.  Not to mention the lack of production capability once everyone is driving electric cars. I doubt they can upgrade the electric grid fast enough to keep pace. |
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Why do people keep posting that crap? Has anyone even calculated the energy draw of 2 million EVs? Because that is less than 1% of the registered/titled vehicles. I do not care if you are talking off peak overnight hours, excluding the fact that there are industries that only run in those hours, that is a significant energy draw. Which takes even more time to get approved and built than a new coal power plant. Quoted:
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Hmm, To recharge 30kwh in 6 minutes: 30khw = 1800kwm divided by 6 minute recharge = 300kw draw. Say three cars charging at a time = 900kw or almost 1 megawatt draw. I think we will need a grid upgrade. MOST charging would likely be done at home, in one's garage, where fast charging won't be practical. On a day-to-day driving basis, 2-3 hours of charging at 240V 2 phase (30A) will recharge at least enough for ~40 miles. Greater than 70% of people drive 40 miles or less per day, so this type of charging will satisfy the vast majority of owners. Off peak, we have plenty of power generation... but the poster above is most correct, we need MORE NUKEZ!! Because it's a good, clean, dense source of baseload power generation. Why do people keep posting that crap? Has anyone even calculated the energy draw of 2 million EVs? Because that is less than 1% of the registered/titled vehicles. I do not care if you are talking off peak overnight hours, excluding the fact that there are industries that only run in those hours, that is a significant energy draw. Which takes even more time to get approved and built than a new coal power plant. |
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Yeah, all those cars Toshiba is making will surely put them out of business Quoted:
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Please be the demise of Tesla. I fucking hate that company Any meaningful advancements in battery technology that change our lives will come from companies like Toshiba and any resulting electric vehicles produced in enough numbers for the common man to buy en mass will be built by GM, Toyota and Honda, not by the con man Elon Musk. |
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In the actual reality of how many cars are churned out on to the market each year, Tesla doesn't make many more cars than Toshiba doesn't. That's what irks so many of us about Tesla motors. Elon Musk is a huskster who's company is an R&D Lab he's billing as a car factory which he's using as a front to suck up government money. He keeps promising to change the world all the while he lacks the manufacturing capacity for his vehicles to be produced in numbers to be anything more than novelty items. Has he ever met a production goal? He's a con man bilking tax dollars. Any meaningful advancements in battery technology that change our lives will come from companies like Toshiba and any resulting electric vehicles produced in enough numbers for the common man to buy en mass will be built by GM, Toyota and Honda, not by the con man Elon Musk. Quoted:
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Please be the demise of Tesla. I fucking hate that company Any meaningful advancements in battery technology that change our lives will come from companies like Toshiba and any resulting electric vehicles produced in enough numbers for the common man to buy en mass will be built by GM, Toyota and Honda, not by the con man Elon Musk. How many trillion did Musk get for the reusable Falcon rocket? How much on the electric car side of things? At some point, he should be paying the government back either with new tech, or cash, but we all know that isn't going to happen. SpaceX/Tesla really haven't come up with "Something Entirely New" in a couple years, at the beginning they were making many advancements, now, not so much. |
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Pic of said battery-
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/01/15/business/15BATTERIESJP1/15BATTERIESJP1-master675.jpg Attached File |
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In the actual reality of how many cars are churned out on to the market each year, Tesla doesn't make many more cars than Toshiba doesn't. That's what irks so many of us about Tesla motors. Elon Musk is a huskster who's company is an R&D Lab he's billing as a car factory which he's using as a front to suck up government money. He keeps promising to change the world all the while he lacks the manufacturing capacity for his vehicles to be produced in numbers to be anything more than novelty items. Has he ever met a production goal? He's a con man bilking tax dollars. Any meaningful advancements in battery technology that change our lives will come from companies like Toshiba and any resulting electric vehicles produced in enough numbers for the common man to buy en mass will be built by GM, Toyota and Honda, not by the con man Elon Musk. Quoted:
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Please be the demise of Tesla. I fucking hate that company Any meaningful advancements in battery technology that change our lives will come from companies like Toshiba and any resulting electric vehicles produced in enough numbers for the common man to buy en mass will be built by GM, Toyota and Honda, not by the con man Elon Musk. It's not like Tesla sells almost half the EVs in the USA or anything. |
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So when we going to get some 18650s that will charge to 90% in six minutes? Increasing capacity of existing LiIon can be done, but I'm already paying around $8/battery, and don't feel it's worth $19/battery for an extra 3 minutes of light.
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The only difference between a bomb and a battery is how fast you can safely discharge the battery. The higher the energy density the more this becomes a concern.
I can't give a figure as to how much of the developmental budget for a new battery type goes to just making it safe against blowing itself up in the event of something shorting it, but it has to be a fair percentage of development costs. As battery energy density gets greater with new developments, that's going to be even more of a concern. I predict that there will be some spectacular failures in those safety systems as more electric vehicles get on the roads with ever higher battery energy densities. I think it's inevitable that there will be some EVs involved in crashes that cause full scale battery detonations. It'll be spectacular and very, very bad indeed. |
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Yep just outsource the batt packs win win Quoted:
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Please be the demise of Tesla. I fucking hate that company win win This new battery tech, if it actually became commercially viable, would be terrible for Tesla because the real car companies didn't go irreversibly all in on a single battery tech chosen 10 years ago. The real car companies can switch to better battery technology as it becomes available. Tesla can't. Tesla is guaranteed to have the shittiest batteries for a loooong time. |
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The only difference between a bomb and a battery is how fast you can safely discharge the battery. The higher the energy density the more this becomes a concern. I can't give a figure as to how much of the developmental budget for a new battery type goes to just making it safe against blowing itself up in the event of something shorting it, but it has to be a fair percentage of development costs. As battery energy density gets greater with new developments, that's going to be even more of a concern. I predict that there will be some spectacular failures in those safety systems as more electric vehicles get on the roads with ever higher battery energy densities. I think it's inevitable that there will be some EVs involved in crashes that cause full scale battery detonations. It'll be spectacular and very, very bad indeed. 
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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - GAME CHANGER: Toshiba develops EV battery that can go 200 Miles after only 6 minutes of charge (Page 2 of 5)
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