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Posted: 11/30/2011 6:45:25 PM EDT
ATF was notified per new law regarding border states sales of multiple rifles after my friend bought a couple WASR-10s.  ATF knocks on his door tonight to check and see if he still has them. Their reason for suspicion? 'it's holiday time and people do a lot of traveling so it's possible he could be taking them farther south.' he shows them that the guns are still in his possession, along with his other firearms he's purchased legally and they leave, satisfied. However, one of them tells him it would be a felony if he HAD sold them to somebody else. Kinda scary to me that they are following up on these purchases.

As far as the 'felony' sale to another person is concerned, does anyone know what's considered an acceptable amount of time( in the law's eyes) to keep a firearm before selling it to another individual?
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:46:36 PM EDT
The ATF visited his house?  To check on multiple rifle purchases?
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:46:53 PM EDT
Sell them all for a profit? Or did you sell them to a person that can't legally have them? Or did you sell them to a mule?
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:46:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2011 6:47:51 PM EDT by Furyataurus]
Originally Posted By the444shooter:
ATF was notified per new law regarding border states sales of multiple rifles after my friend bought a couple WASR-10s.  ATF knocks on his door tonight to check and see if he still has them. Their reason for suspicion? 'it's holiday time and people do a lot of traveling so it's possible he could be taking them farther south.' he shows them that the guns are still in his possession, along with his other firearms he's purchased legally and they leave, satisfied. However, one of them tells him it would be a felony if he HAD sold them to somebody else. Kinda scary to me that they are following up on these purchases.

As far as the 'felony' sale to another person is concerned, does anyone know what's considered an acceptable amount of time( in the law's eyes) to keep a firearm before selling it to another individual?


1 second after you paid for it. Buyers remorse happens all the time.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:47:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2011 6:48:23 PM EDT by iluvguns]
shoulda told them to fuck off


eta: or tell them he aleady sold them to the other ATF agents that came to his door
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:47:54 PM EDT
They probably wanted to make sure he wasn't cutting in on there business
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:48:40 PM EDT
I would tell them to go check on the weapons of their bosses since they have a demonstrated pattern of turning up in Mexico.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:48:54 PM EDT
In.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:49:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2011 6:52:57 PM EDT by the444shooter]
Yes. Knocked on his door, announced that they were ATF (don't know how they were dressed) and asked about his purchase and whether he had any other guns.

ETA, they thanked him for his cooperation and went on their way with not so much as a peep otherwise.

Just disconcerting that they seem to think that you still can't legally sell them to someone else. These are the people that are 'in charge'
*facepalm*
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:49:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By iluvguns:
shoulda told them to fuck off





This. I would have contacted my attorney before they came through the door. No warrant, go away.

Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:50:08 PM EDT
Do NOT invite the ATF inside to view your collection EVER! Tell them you will meet them at their office with your attorney present. OP's friend sounds like he is lucky at this point if nothing more comes of this.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:50:50 PM EDT
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:51:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mustangduckk:
Originally Posted By iluvguns:
shoulda told them to fuck off





This. I would have contacted my attorney before they came through the door. No warrant, go away.



For real.  Sounds like an investigation for which they have no probable cause or reasonable suspicion.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:51:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2011 6:53:33 PM EDT by GetDown_M4A3]
Allowing people into your home without a warrant to look at firearms. Smart. No possible chance they'd lie about being ATF, or have fake ID, right?

I always challenge people even after they've shown ID, because if I've never seen that agency's ID before, how would I know it's real? Besides the warrant issue, I'd have called the ATF to verify their identity. I've had people lie about their ID/agency twice when I've been responsible for security somewhere (military and civilian), and my being vigillant about checking won each time.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:51:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By iluvguns:


tell them he aleady sold them to the other ATF agents that came to his door


I like this answer the best.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:51:10 PM EDT
Always Think "Fuck-off"

Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:51:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By the444shooter:
ATF was notified per new law regarding border states sales of multiple rifles after my friend bought a couple WASR-10s.  ATF knocks on his door tonight to check and see if he still has them. Their reason for suspicion? 'it's holiday time and people do a lot of traveling so it's possible he could be taking them farther south.' he shows them that the guns are still in his possession, along with his other firearms he's purchased legally and they leave, satisfied. However, one of them tells him it would be a felony if he HAD sold them to somebody else. Kinda scary to me that they are following up on these purchases.

As far as the 'felony' sale to another person is concerned, does anyone know what's considered an acceptable amount of time( in the law's eyes) to keep a firearm before selling it to another individual?


The agent was talking out of his ass. It is not illegal to sell a gun. It is illegal to "engage in business" without a license. The BATFE offers a somewhat informative interpretation that specifically says you can sell guns as a hobby and that you may sell all or part of your collection.

   The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

   [27 CFR 478.11]
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:51:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArchInfidel:
Do NOT invite the ATF inside to view your collection EVER! Tell them you will meet them at their office with your attorney present. OP's friend sounds like he is lucky at this point if nothing more comes of this.


For what?  Legally buying firearms?
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:51:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mustangduckk:
Originally Posted By iluvguns:
shoulda told them to fuck off





This. I would have contacted my attorney before they came through the door. No warrant, go away.



This again...

Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:53:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By joedirt1977:
Originally Posted By ArchInfidel:
Do NOT invite the ATF inside to view your collection EVER! Tell them you will meet them at their office with your attorney present. OP's friend sounds like he is lucky at this point if nothing more comes of this.


For what?  Legally buying firearms?


We live in interesting times.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:53:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2011 6:56:28 PM EDT by resq2106]
I think you can buy guns and sell them all day long as long as the people you sell them to are not prohibitted from owning them. If they are prohibitted, it's a "straw purchase". As far as asking about other guns he owns, I would be making a call to my congressman's office RFN.

ETA: Paging nolo_contendere!
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:55:07 PM EDT
This obviously took him by surprise, so I think he let them in because his guard was down
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:56:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Der_Hans:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.


Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:56:43 PM EDT
Buy one of these for your buddy for Christmas/Hanukkah/Festivus/Whatever.


Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:58:18 PM EDT
Can't say that I wouldn't have let them in either––I guess it's the 'respect people in official positions' part of my brain.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:58:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Cnacki77:
Buy one of these for your buddy for Christmas/Hanukkah/Festivus/Whatever.


Exactly.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 6:59:26 PM EDT
I might have showed them the WASRs to make them go away but he shouldn't have showed them anything else. And you probably want to show the rifles at the door rather then have them come in and see things they may not need to see.

For those of you that say lawyer up ? Is it really worth it ? And refusing to show them, means they may raid with a warrant. Not worth the BS. I doubt they are really interested in him, if its all as you say just over buying a few rifles. Show the rifles, they go away and forget. You don't want them interested in you.

Link Posted: 11/30/2011 7:00:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Originally Posted By Der_Hans:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.


Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.


Exactly. Sometimes satisfying them makes it go away and not make a mountain out of a molehouse. They shouldn't have been there.. But they were. Do what you can to make them go away and forget about it which is probably what they did.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 7:02:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2011 7:03:10 PM EDT by Renegade13B]
Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Originally Posted By Der_Hans:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.


Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.


How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF?

And when did exercising constitutionally guaranteed rights become being confrontational?
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 7:02:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By resq2106:
I think you can buy guns and sell them all day long as long as the people you sell them to are not prohibitted from owning them. If they are prohibitted, it's a "straw purchase". As far as asking about other guns he owns, I would be making a call to my congressman's office RFN.

ETA: Paging nolo_contendere!


You don't want to buy and sell too often and appear to be dealing with a license. Occasional sales are fine.

I'd like to know the context of the comment about selling them being illegal.

Perhaps they might if he'd sold them as part of a straw purchase, or possibly illegal dealing otherwise selling them would be legal.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 7:03:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Renegade13B:
Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Originally Posted By Der_Hans:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.


Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.


How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF?


Who knows ? Maybe nothing happens, maybe something does. But best case you get a note if your file about not cooperating and possibly engaging in funny business rather than a note saying they checked up and you still had the rifles ( that they already knew you had, so no worries there )
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 7:03:31 PM EDT
What part of TX?
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 7:03:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Renegade13B:
Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Originally Posted By Der_Hans:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.


Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.


How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF?


It will seem suspicious and your name goes into the "further review" pile.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 7:03:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By resq2106:
I think you can buy guns and sell them all day long as long as the people you sell them to are not prohibitted from owning them. If they are prohibitted, it's a "straw purchase". As far as asking about other guns he owns, I would be making a call to my congressman's office RFN.

ETA: Paging nolo_contendere!


Tell that to this guy
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 7:04:29 PM EDT
somebodys dog is going to get shot
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 7:04:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By resq2106:
I think you can buy guns and sell them all day long as long as the people you sell them to are not prohibitted from owning them. If they are prohibitted, it's a "straw purchase". As far as asking about other guns he owns, I would be making a call to my congressman's office RFN.

ETA: Paging nolo_contendere!


I don't play an ATF agent on TV, but I don't think so.  

You have to intend on keeping the guns you purchase for personal use or collection.  If you buy with the intent to resell, that isn't personal anymore, that's a business intent.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 7:05:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2011 7:05:42 PM EDT by LockingBlock]
Normal, they do it all the time.

He fit the profile of criminal behavior...checked...he is good to go.

Had he done the F U!!! JBTs!!!

Yeah...moving towards the suspect side of life
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 7:05:24 PM EDT
My ffl sed he never got that letter from the ATF so he's not doing it. Hopefully that's still the case.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 7:06:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 74AKZ:
Originally Posted By resq2106:
I think you can buy guns and sell them all day long as long as the people you sell them to are not prohibitted from owning them. If they are prohibitted, it's a "straw purchase". As far as asking about other guns he owns, I would be making a call to my congressman's office RFN.

ETA: Paging nolo_contendere!


You don't want to buy and sell too often and appear to be dealing with a license. Occasional sales are fine.

I'd like to know the context of the comment about selling them being illegal.

Perhaps they might if he'd sold them as part of a straw purchase, or possibly illegal dealing otherwise selling them would be legal.


From how he told it to me it sounded like a blanket statement about selling to another individual. By all means, lawyers and people who have played lawyers on tv, let me know what you think!

Link Posted: 11/30/2011 7:07:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By resq2106:
. . . As far as asking about other guns he owns, I would be making a call to my congressman's office RFN.


Damn right. That agent needed to be told right up front that his inquiry would be the subject of a phone call to your Congressman's office AND THE NRA the very next morning . . .
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 7:07:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ghetto:
What part of TX?


DFW area
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 7:08:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Originally Posted By Der_Hans:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.


Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.


Or he could tell them to fuck off with similar results.

Link Posted: 11/30/2011 7:09:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 74AKZ:
And refusing to show them, means they may raid with a warrant.




Link Posted: 11/30/2011 7:09:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Originally Posted By Renegade13B:
Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Originally Posted By Der_Hans:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.


Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.


How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF?


It will seem suspicious and your name goes into the "further review" pile.


Which isn't a big deal if you haven't done anything wrong, correct?
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 7:09:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gator:
Originally Posted By resq2106:
I think you can buy guns and sell them all day long as long as the people you sell them to are not prohibitted from owning them. If they are prohibitted, it's a "straw purchase". As far as asking about other guns he owns, I would be making a call to my congressman's office RFN.

ETA: Paging nolo_contendere!


I don't play an ATF agent on TV, but I don't think so.  

You have to intend on keeping the guns you purchase for personal use or collection.  If you buy with the intent to resell, that isn't personal anymore, that's a business intent.


Your intent at the time of purchase is all that matters. If you change your mind about a gun the next day then it's perfectly OK to "enhance your collection." I don't believe the BATFE is equipped with a mind-reading intent detector yet.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 7:10:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Originally Posted By Renegade13B:
Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Originally Posted By Der_Hans:
Did they have a warrant?

No warrant, no talk.


Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.
But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.
However, it won't end the way you think.


How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF?


It will seem suspicious and your name goes into the "further review" pile.


And? How is that any different from letting them see the rifles? (assuming you aren't involved in any criminal activity)
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 7:11:12 PM EDT
Except for some .22's, I've never actually purchased a complete/factory rifle.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 7:11:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By the444shooter:
Originally Posted By 74AKZ:
Originally Posted By resq2106:
I think you can buy guns and sell them all day long as long as the people you sell them to are not prohibitted from owning them. If they are prohibitted, it's a "straw purchase". As far as asking about other guns he owns, I would be making a call to my congressman's office RFN.

ETA: Paging nolo_contendere!


You don't want to buy and sell too often and appear to be dealing with a license. Occasional sales are fine.

I'd like to know the context of the comment about selling them being illegal.

Perhaps they might if he'd sold them as part of a straw purchase, or possibly illegal dealing otherwise selling them would be legal.


From how he told it to me it sounded like a blanket statement about selling to another individual. By all means, lawyers and people who have played lawyers on tv, let me know what you think!



There is no law prohibiting a sale such as you describe. I bet if you call ATF and ask they will agree.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 7:12:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DontShootMyDog:
Originally Posted By 74AKZ:
And refusing to show them, means they may raid with a warrant.






Didn't say it was likely, but its certainly possible. People have gotten in trouble for less.

More like its as doctor308 said, you'll be marked for further review and scrutiny. Who wants that ?
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 7:12:32 PM EDT
When I was building my Mosin Nagant coffee table, the State Police actually contacted the FFL to get my phone number and "additional information".

I was really hoping the person from State was a cute chick just trying to find out how awesome I am....but, alas, I never heard anything more of it.  I guess when they Googled the model of the rifles, they had a big laugh, realizing it probably wasn't part of some elaborate gun-running scheme.
Link Posted: 11/30/2011 7:13:26 PM EDT



Originally Posted By 74AKZ:



Originally Posted By thedoctors308:


Originally Posted By Der_Hans:

Did they have a warrant?



No warrant, no talk.




Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion.

But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it.

However, it won't end the way you think.




Exactly. Sometimes satisfying them makes it go away and not make a mountain out of a molehouse. They shouldn't have been there.. But they were. Do what you can to make them go away and forget about it which is probably what they did.


Sorry to burst your bubble, but, they did not go away and forget it. There will be a written record of all that transpired, to include impressions, suspicions, and a diagram of the home. Rest assured, any time, EVERY time you are contacted by a LEO, you are wearing a littl;e sign on your head that says "suspect". Maybe not by the contacting officer, maybe not that day, week, month, even year,but, yes, you are a tooth on a gear which you do  not control, nor know about. They are not just stopping by idly. Guaranteed. Not saying your friend is in trouble, r did anything wrong, but, for some reason, someone has reason to believe he did. Or someone he has a connection to did.



 
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