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Posted: 7/25/2013 7:02:24 AM EST
The french issue these light mortars at the squad fire team level. for indirect fire.







"The mortar uses bombs with a method of propulsion called FLY-K, a closed combustion chamber to capture all the propulsion gases. The propellant charge is inserted into the stabilizing tail of each projectile so the weapon transmits the ignition impulse to the grenade via an enclosed internal system. This concept assures little in the way of noise, muzzle flash, smoke and without a significant thermal signature. The noise made on firing is only 52 dB, making it hard to detect the launching point and high rates of sustained fire are possible as the weapon does not heat up.

The LGI can fire anti-personnel, anti-material, blinding, smoke and illumination rounds."

I understand we have the M203, but does that really do the same job?
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:04:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/25/2013 7:05:56 AM EST by Aeain]
Does indirect fire


Newest version
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:05:41 AM EST
What's old is new again. Didn't the Japanese use these in WWII?
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:05:44 AM EST
That is a nice invention.
I cant imagine the armed services not wanting that handy tool.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:06:19 AM EST
I love how quiet they are.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:06:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/25/2013 7:07:57 AM EST by Miles_Urbanus]
That isn't much smaller then the 60mm. They just employ it differently at a lower level then we do.

ETA: I am wrong it is about half the size/weight of a M224.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:06:37 AM EST
We're at weight capacity now.

If you want a new toy, you have to give up something else to be able to carry it.


These are cool toys, sure. But the question is, what do you give up to be able to carry it?
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:07:20 AM EST
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I don't think it does the high angle of indirect that a mortar does.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:07:28 AM EST
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An HK GLM is not an M203.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:09:36 AM EST
Pretty neat. What does it weigh for one and a useful load of ammo?
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:09:48 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Gelgoog:


I don't think it does the high angle of indirect that a mortar does.
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Originally Posted By Gelgoog:


I don't think it does the high angle of indirect that a mortar does.


You can do it.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:10:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/25/2013 7:12:04 AM EST by Aeain]
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Originally Posted By ziarifleman:

An HK GLM is not an M203.
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Originally Posted By ziarifleman:

An HK GLM is not an M203.


If we are talking about 40mm Grenade launching devices the M320 is the newest grenade launcher in the U.S. Army Inventory.

ETA: Didn't say they were the same. Just said newest version insinuating that people are smart enough to know the difference between the two. Apparently, not.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:12:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By Gelgoog:
The french issue these light mortars at the squad fire team level. for indirect fire.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/LGI_entrainement.jpg

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/333/lgi4tr2.jpg

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/8979/grenades60mm02bw4.jpg

"The mortar uses bombs with a method of propulsion called FLY-K, a closed combustion chamber to capture all the propulsion gases. The propellant charge is inserted into the stabilizing tail of each projectile so the weapon transmits the ignition impulse to the grenade via an enclosed internal system. This concept assures little in the way of noise, muzzle flash, smoke and without a significant thermal signature. The noise made on firing is only 52 dB, making it hard to detect the launching point and high rates of sustained fire are possible as the weapon does not heat up.

The LGI can fire anti-personnel, anti-material, blinding, smoke and illumination rounds."

I understand we have the M203, but does that really do the same job?
View Quote


I like the OD gloves in the top pic.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:13:16 AM EST
As for the low noise/smoke system, DARPA and AAI came up with the same thing back in the late 60's, but the 40mm cartridge had just been adopted with the M79, and the military didn't want to switch horses at that point.

The grenade launcher was literally just a baseplate and trigger that attached to the M16, and the cartridge was folded in on itself to act as both the smokeless/flashless container AND the barrel of the launcher. Pull the trigger, the whole thing flys away with a low thump.

Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:14:10 AM EST
the us doesn't need anything like that
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:14:21 AM EST
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Originally Posted By JerkStore:
Pretty neat. What does it weigh for one and a useful load of ammo?
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10lbs for the tube

51mm ammo I have no idea.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:16:19 AM EST
I believe the British still have 2 inch mortars at the platoon level, as well.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:16:45 AM EST
I thought that nice molded baseplate was supposed to go on your bent knee when you fired it.... Hence the name.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:17:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/25/2013 7:18:05 AM EST by Miles_Urbanus]
Mortarmen chime in I am just a former line dog.

French Lance-grenade individuel Mle F1 (LGI Mle F1)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGI_Mle_F1

Diameter: 51 mm
Weight: 4.8 kg
Length: 605 mm
Maximum range: 675 m
Effective kill radius: 20 m
Rate of fire: up to 30 rounds per minute

VS

USA M224 60mm Mortar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M224_mortar

Diameter: 60mm
Weight: M225 Cannon ONLY– 14.4 lb (7 kg)
Length: Barrel length 1 meter (3.3 feet)
Maximum range: (Listed as effective range) HE: 70–3,490 m (I will assume this is with sights, bipod and baseplate)
ROF: up to 20 rpm sustained, 30 rpm in exceptional circumstances and for short periods
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:17:20 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Gelgoog:


10lbs for the tube

51mm ammo I have no idea.
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Originally Posted By Gelgoog:
Originally Posted By JerkStore:
Pretty neat. What does it weigh for one and a useful load of ammo?


10lbs for the tube

51mm ammo I have no idea.

Seems like it would be splitting hairs over the traditional M203. But I'm not a .mil guy. So I don't know how shit like this works.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:17:39 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Aeain:
Originally Posted By Gelgoog:


I don't think it does the high angle of indirect that a mortar does.


You can do it. http://htmlimg2.scribdassets.com/6t717x13wgfpetz/images/71-ac3518d2dd.jpg



Beat me to it, we had orientation on this , using the M203 as a small mortar back in'88
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:17:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/25/2013 7:18:24 AM EST by Aeain]
M224 60mm Mortar in handheld mode.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:18:07 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Aeain:
Originally Posted By Gelgoog:


I don't think it does the high angle of indirect that a mortar does.


You can do it. http://htmlimg2.scribdassets.com/6t717x13wgfpetz/images/71-ac3518d2dd.jpg



Beat me to it, we had orientation on this , using the M203 as a small mortar back in'88
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:19:01 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Clarinath:
I thought that nice molded baseplate was supposed to go on your bent knee when you fired it.... Hence the name.
View Quote


I think there were a lot of Pacific Theater WWII vets with really bad limps for thinking the same thing about the little Japanese "knee mortars".
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:20:44 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Clarinath:
I thought that nice molded baseplate was supposed to go on your bent knee when you fired it.... Hence the name.
View Quote


The nickname is a bit of a cruel joke of sorts.

If you put it on your knee and fired it, the recoil impulse would shatter your leg.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:21:10 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Clarinath:
I thought that nice molded baseplate was supposed to go on your bent knee when you fired it.... Hence the name.
View Quote


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_89_grenade_discharger
Some Allied infantrymen mistakenly assumed that the launcher's curve plate was propped on the leg to fire and thereafter referred to it as a "knee mortar". However, any soldier or marine who tried to fire a captured Type 89 in this fashion received a severe bruise (and sometimes a broken thigh bone) from the hefty recoil
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:22:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/25/2013 7:23:13 AM EST by Angel_King]
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Originally Posted By Clarinath:
I thought that nice molded baseplate was supposed to go on your bent knee when you fired it.... Hence the name.
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Not if you like your femur.

Besides don't the French still issue rifle grenades?
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:22:49 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Aeain:
M224 60mm Mortar in handheld mode.
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m303/daemon734/IMG_0111_zps1c5adb41.jpg
View Quote


Can one man carry the weapon system all the rounds and use it entirely by himself? That is what the LGI was designed for, so that every squad could have one.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:23:06 AM EST
What's the db level on a M203? Seems like it would be possible to make a suppressed version if you really wanted to...
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:24:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/25/2013 7:27:36 AM EST by TokerM]
Early 90's 0352 here, so I just had a basic intro to mortars. In the line companies, the 0341s had a small mortar that was fired with a hand trigger. IIRC, it was smaller than a 60, but was not a 40mm - M203 style. Still a breech drop round, just didn't fire until you pulled the trigger.

What was that, and don't we still use them? More of a line company dedicated system.

ETA - Looked like Aeain's pic above, only shorter and with a round baseplate?

ETA2 - Reading Badger below, the 51 does sound familiar.... did the Marines use 51mm?
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:25:34 AM EST
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Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
I believe the British still have 2 inch mortars at the platoon level, as well.
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Why yes we do L9A1 51 mm Light Mortar
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:26:09 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Gelgoog:


Can one man carry the weapon system all the rounds and use it entirely by himself? That is what the LGI was designed for, so that every squad could have one.
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Originally Posted By Gelgoog:
Originally Posted By Aeain:
M224 60mm Mortar in handheld mode.
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m303/daemon734/IMG_0111_zps1c5adb41.jpg


Can one man carry the weapon system all the rounds and use it entirely by himself? That is what the LGI was designed for, so that every squad could have one.


The 11Cs I deployed with carried a the 60mm in handheld mode with 3-4 rounds and a rifle. Ammo Bearer/Assistant Gunner/Everyone would carry the rest of the rounds.

The advantage of this is that the M224 can be used in Conventional Mode with a sight, bipod and all that.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:26:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/25/2013 7:31:35 AM EST by Gelgoog]

Damn that is quiet.


Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:26:44 AM EST
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Originally Posted By crurifragium:
What's the db level on a M203? Seems like it would be possible to make a suppressed version if you really wanted to...
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Used to fire M203s without ear pro and it wasn't even loud at all.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:29:35 AM EST
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Originally Posted By TrojanMan:


The nickname is a bit of a cruel joke of sorts.

If you put it on your knee and fired it, the recoil impulse would shatter your leg.
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Originally Posted By TrojanMan:
Originally Posted By Clarinath:
I thought that nice molded baseplate was supposed to go on your bent knee when you fired it.... Hence the name.


The nickname is a bit of a cruel joke of sorts.

If you put it on your knee and fired it, the recoil impulse would shatter your leg.


Laughs, I know. Could you imagine the shock and surprise when that happened? Imagine the last words that soldier said before dropping a round down the tube. I am hoping it was, "Watch this"!
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:29:49 AM EST
I think this is some sort of special forces variant

Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:32:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/25/2013 7:34:27 AM EST by TheCanuck]
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Originally Posted By Gelgoog:

Damn that is quiet.


http://youtu.be/Lb1WNkxB_eE
View Quote




beat by the edit
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:34:11 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Aeain:


Used to fire M203s without ear pro and it wasn't even loud at all.
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Originally Posted By Aeain:
Originally Posted By crurifragium:
What's the db level on a M203? Seems like it would be possible to make a suppressed version if you really wanted to...


Used to fire M203s without ear pro and it wasn't even loud at all.


This. I could fire the M203 all day long. A .22 short is louder.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:34:59 AM EST
I've always thought in a SHTF situation that if two conflicting sides are fighting and one manages to get a hold of some mortars, the other side is going to get fucked up bad. That was actually a plot element in Jericho.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:35:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/25/2013 7:39:46 AM EST by DeltaElite777]
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Originally Posted By Gelgoog:
I think this is some sort of special forces variant

View Quote


Are you sure that isn't a nozzle from one of those coin-operated car washes?

I can definitely see a need for an ultralight indirect fire system for SOCOM types and other "deep penetration" forces, where fire support ain't gonna happen, and CAS ain't gonna happen fast enough. For a standard infantry squad, I don't think it would be worth the extra weight.

Also: not all 37/40mm rounds are quiet. Were were screwing around with some expired 37mm stuff a few years back... one round was a practice OC round, we figured it was just a glorified water balloon.. it would "bloop" about 50-100 yards downrange, no big deal. Turns out if was a practice "barricade penetration" OC round, designed to basically shoot through a light door or sheetrock and deploy OC inside. Damn thing went off like a cannon.... and was still going up when it went out of sight.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:36:32 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Clarinath:
Imagine the last words that soldier said before dropping a round down the tube. I am hoping it was, "Watch this"!
View Quote


I imagine the first words after firing were more colorful.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:42:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/25/2013 7:50:01 AM EST by FlyingGorilla]
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Originally Posted By A_G:
What's old is new again. Didn't the Japanese use these in WWII?
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The Japanese used something very similar and it was called a knee mortar as well. Heard about them from my Dad when he was describing his service in the Pacific island hopping campaign. My Dad said they were handy weapons to have and that they would keep every one they found and use them against the Japanese until they ran out of ammo.

Dad also mentioned that a lot of GI's who got hold of the Japanese versions took the name "knee mortar" to seriously and tried firing those things by positioning the base just above their knee. Those guys ended up breaking their knees. That might be the reason the Army developed the M-203.

eta: One of the reasons Dad said the Japanese knee mortars were popular was that they could fire near horizontally. During WWII no US mortar could do that. That is an advantage modern grenade launchers provide over mortars.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:43:40 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Clarinath:
I thought that nice molded baseplate was supposed to go on your bent knee when you fired it.... Hence the name.
View Quote


Fuck no. YOu will break bones if you do that.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:49:24 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Gelgoog:

Damn that is quiet.


http://youtu.be/Lb1WNkxB_eE
View Quote



That has got some serious hangtime. Pretty neat, very quiet..
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:53:40 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Macumazahn:



That has got some serious hangtime. Pretty neat, very quiet..
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Originally Posted By Macumazahn:
Originally Posted By Gelgoog:

Damn that is quiet.


http://youtu.be/Lb1WNkxB_eE



That has got some serious hangtime. Pretty neat, very quiet..


Looked like they were firing it at max range.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:58:35 AM EST
In before airsofters start talking about DEVGRU's pirate gun...
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:58:46 AM EST
What can it do that a M25 gunner in each squad can't? From what I've read from the loggie side, the units issued XM25's for testing in Afghanistan really liked them, and it looks like they are going to be fielded at the squad level Army-wide in the next couple of years.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 8:06:52 AM EST
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Originally Posted By jwr6:
What can it do that a M25 gunner in each squad can't? From what I've read from the loggie side, the units issued XM25's for testing in Afghanistan really liked them, and it looks like they are going to be fielded at the squad level Army-wide in the next couple of years.
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Don't know since the M25 hasn't been fielded by anyone yet.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 8:09:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/25/2013 8:12:25 AM EST by Aeain]
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Originally Posted By Gelgoog:


Don't know since the M25 hasn't been fielded by anyone yet.
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Originally Posted By Gelgoog:
Originally Posted By jwr6:
What can it do that a M25 gunner in each squad can't? From what I've read from the loggie side, the units issued XM25's for testing in Afghanistan really liked them, and it looks like they are going to be fielded at the squad level Army-wide in the next couple of years.


Don't know since the M25 hasn't been fielded by anyone yet.


The XM25 was fielded by my Company for testing in 2011 when we were deployed. It was a good weapon system, except for one issue (Heard it was fixed). Too bad the Army Canceled it.

When they sent ours back we got a M3 Recoiless Rifle as a replacement.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 8:17:45 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Aeain:


The XM25 was fielded by my Company for testing in 2011 when we were deployed. It was a good weapon system, except for one issue (Heard it was fixed). Too bad the Army Canceled it.

When they sent ours back we got a M3 Recoiless Rifle as a replacement.
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Originally Posted By Aeain:
Originally Posted By Gelgoog:
Originally Posted By jwr6:
What can it do that a M25 gunner in each squad can't? From what I've read from the loggie side, the units issued XM25's for testing in Afghanistan really liked them, and it looks like they are going to be fielded at the squad level Army-wide in the next couple of years.


Don't know since the M25 hasn't been fielded by anyone yet.


The XM25 was fielded by my Company for testing in 2011 when we were deployed. It was a good weapon system, except for one issue (Heard it was fixed). Too bad the Army Canceled it.

When they sent ours back we got a M3 Recoiless Rifle as a replacement.


Knee mortar is lighter
Knee mortar is made by HK, and thus will require millions in extra accessories, parts, and training because they're too snobby to make something that everyone else can already use with their current gear.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 8:18:31 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Badger66:


Why yes we do L9A1 51 mm Light Mortar
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Originally Posted By Badger66:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
I believe the British still have 2 inch mortars at the platoon level, as well.


Why yes we do L9A1 51 mm Light Mortar


The 51's are still in the Armories, but most units are switching to the M6-895, 60mm Handheld Mortar.

51's at the bottom


The new 60mm




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