Fatal accident at Front Sight

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Fatal accident at Front Sight (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 7/13/2007 9:43:29 AM EDT

I-Team: Celebration Turns Deadly at Front Sight Firearms Training

July 5, 2007 06:41 PM PDT A Fourth of July celebration at a weapons training facility near Pahrump ended with the death of a young father. According to the Nye County sheriff, the man -- identified as Jesus Valencia --Martinez -- was sliding down a zip-line as part of the ropes course at the facility.

The rider before him had not cleared the hydraulic platform at the end of the line before Martinez began his run. As a result, Martinez collided with the platform. He died at the scene.

Eyewitness News I-Team began their investigation of Front Sight Firearms Training Institute more than two years ago. Several people who bought memberships to the facility filed a class action lawsuit alleging fraud, racketeering and misappropriation of funds.

Efforts to settle the case are on-going, though the latest agreement would provide members with a refund if they surrender their memberships. Wednesday's accident occurred during the facility's annual Fourth of July party.

The sheriff says Martinez's family was there when he died. Detectives are investigating whether there was any negligence on the part of the facility. An autopsy is scheduled for next week.

Posted: 7/13/2007 9:46:20 AM EDT

[#1]

Since this is a firearms facility, and not a Six Flags theme park, I anticipate the number of "Sue them for all they are worth" posts will be infrequent.

Posted: 7/13/2007 9:47:55 AM EDT

[#2]

Well, that's not good...

Posted: 7/13/2007 9:48:08 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Since this is a firearms facility, and not a Six Flags theme park, I anticipate the number of "Sue them for all they are worth" posts will be infrequent.

Heh.

I don't know enough either way. Sometimes - even in amusement parks - shit happens, despite your best efforts. I'm all for suing if it's clear that there was gross negligence involved, though.

Posted: 7/13/2007 9:48:10 AM EDT

[#4]

Is this a standard type of device at a "firearms training facility", or was FS getting a little gadgety?

Posted: 7/13/2007 9:48:28 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Since this is a firearms facility, and not a Six Flags theme park, I anticipate the number of "Sue them for all they are worth" posts will be infrequent.

A few years back, Front Site, IIRC, threatened to sue arfcom (as well as GlockTalk, and a few other forums) because people were complaining about their facility.

Posted: 7/13/2007 9:48:49 AM EDT

[#6]

STFATAW

FS of course makes all students sign a waiver acknowledging that being there carries a risk of injury or death. It will be interesting to see how that pans out.

Posted: 7/13/2007 9:50:28 AM EDT

[#7]

Was this a training scenario or something "4th of July party" related?

Was alcohol present at this party?

Posted: 7/13/2007 9:50:45 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Since this is a firearms facility, and not a Six Flags theme park, I anticipate the number of "Sue them for all they are worth" posts will be infrequent.

A few years back, Front Site, IIRC, threatened to sue arfcom (as well as GlockTalk, and a few other forums) because people were complaining about their facility.

well isnt tht the steamiest pile of crap..

Posted: 7/13/2007 9:50:59 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Since this is a firearms facility, and not a Six Flags theme park, I anticipate the number of "Sue them for all they are worth" posts will be infrequent.

There is a minor difference in that Six Flags controlled and maintained the ride that the girl lost her feet on where as using a zip line is something the individual controlled. The article doesn't give enough details but it sounds like the guy didn't follow the proper procedure and killed himself. Now if the zipline snapped and the guy died then it would be just like the Flags case.

Posted: 7/13/2007 9:51:34 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
I-Team: Celebration Turns Deadly at Front Sight Firearms Training

July 5, 2007 06:41 PM PDT A Fourth of July celebration at a weapons training facility near Pahrump ended with the death of a young father. According to the Nye County sheriff, the man -- identified as Jesus Valencia --Martinez -- was sliding down a zip-line as part of the ropes course at the facility.

The rider before him had not cleared the hydraulic platform at the end of the line before Martinez began his run. As a result, Martinez collided with the platform. He died at the scene.

Eyewitness News I-Team began their investigation of Front Sight Firearms Training Institute more than two years ago. Several people who bought memberships to the facility filed a class action lawsuit alleging fraud, racketeering and misappropriation of funds.

Efforts to settle the case are on-going, though the latest agreement would provide members with a refund if they surrender their memberships. Wednesday's accident occurred during the facility's annual Fourth of July party.

The sheriff says Martinez's family was there when he died. Detectives are investigating whether there was any negligence on the part of the facility. An autopsy is scheduled for next week.

i bet that's been some "fair and balanced" reporting...

Posted: 7/13/2007 9:52:52 AM EDT

[#11]

"...was sliding down a zip line..."

"wheeee....look at meeee....I'm high speeeeTHUMP"

Posted: 7/13/2007 9:54:10 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Is this a standard type of device at a "firearms training facility", or was FS getting a little gadgety?

Thank God nobody was hurt in the bouncy house or the petting zoo.

Posted: 7/13/2007 9:54:52 AM EDT

[#13]

Anybody have pictures of said zip line? I'm still not clear what exactly happened.

Posted: 7/13/2007 9:55:13 AM EDT

[#14]

I'll admit, the marketing materials Front Sight gives out is really slick and snazzy.

Do a google search, and you'll find mostly positive reviews. It looks like an Arfcom fantasy land... family friendly, classy, lots of internet commando shit, etc. etc.

The timeshare component of it freaks me out though... and my money is going to fund trips with the lady and my sports car

Posted: 7/13/2007 9:59:43 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Anybody have pictures of said zip line? I'm still not clear what exactly happened.

It sounds like a "hold my beer and watch this" moment.

Posted: 7/13/2007 9:59:47 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Since this is a firearms facility, and not a Six Flags theme park, I anticipate the number of "Sue them for all they are worth" posts will be infrequent.

There is a little more expectation of risk not existent at a theme park.

Posted: 7/13/2007 9:59:58 AM EDT

[#17]

I'm still looking for the angle on how to blame Scientology for this.

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:00:11 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

...The timeshare component of it freaks me out though... and my money is going to fund trips with the lady and my sports car

Not to accuse FS of any bad intent, but their marketing style looks suspiciously like something that could turn out bad for the investors in the long run.

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:02:10 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
A few years back, Front Site, IIRC, threatened to sue arfcom (as well as GlockTalk, and a few other forums) because people were complaining about their facility.

Yep, heard about it...

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:03:21 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
I'm still looking for the angle on how to blame Scientology for this.

Sue FrontSight. Scientology's pockets are deeeep.

(there's an angle)

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:06:16 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
STFATAW

FS of course makes all students sign a waiver acknowledging that being there carries a risk of injury or death. It will be interesting to see how that pans out.

Those waivers don't mean shit IF there was negligence.

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:06:50 AM EDT

[#22]

"The rider before him had not cleared the hydraulic platform at the end of the line before Martinez began his run. As a result, Martinez collided with the platform. He died at the scene. "

I dont understand what this had to do with him colliding with the platform.

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:09:41 AM EDT

[#23]

Jesus Valencia --Martinez's....instructor failed to follow procedure if he didn't wait until the person ahead of him cleared the line & platform.
Jesus Valencia --Martinez....Knew there was risk
Jesus Valencia --Martinez....should have confirmed the line was clear himself
Jesus Valencia --Martinez....is not a 13 y/o girl in a park riding a coaster that is considered to be kept safe for the children riding it.
Jesus Valencia --Martinez....died because of human error, an instructor's and his own.

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:10:09 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
STFATAW

FS of course makes all students sign a waiver acknowledging that being there carries a risk of injury or death. It will be interesting to see how that pans out.

Every instructor school I've attended you sign a waiver. Just because somebody signs a waiver does not mean it won't be challenged.

Kind of like prenups.

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:12:53 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Is this a standard type of device at a "firearms training facility", or was FS getting a little gadgety?

I've taken a fair number of training courses at various facilities and with various instructors, including a few courses at Blackwater Training Center.....

Nobody even mentioned ziplines.

YMMV.

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:13:03 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
I'm still looking for the angle on how to blame Scientology for this.

Obviously xenu moved the ramp.

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:14:24 AM EDT

[#27]

The rider before him had not cleared the hydraulic platform at the end of the line before Martinez began his run. As a result, Martinez collided with the platform. He died at the scene.

I'll speculate: If the 1st rider had not cleared then there was probably still weight/tension on the line, reducing it's height, and the unfortunate guy arrived too low and smashed into the platform (~ 35mph).

2nd rider s/n be cleared on his departure platform until the receiving platform is cleared. Usually requires some coordination from platform attendants.

The zip lines I've been on I was able to control/decrease my speed by pulling down on the zip line using the leather-glove and training provided.

Sorry for the family.

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:14:52 AM EDT

[#28]

OST.

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:16:09 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
"The rider before him had not cleared the hydraulic platform at the end of the line before Martinez began his run. As a result, Martinez collided with the platform. He died at the scene. "

I dont understand what this had to do with him colliding with the platform.

Yeah, it's a bit fuzzy. I was expecting someone was killed as a result of a GSW.

I think I've seen the zip line on TV, FS has a show on outdoor channel. IIRC it's a 3-4 story tall tower that you zip down from.

looking for pic.

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:16:53 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Anybody have pictures of said zip line? I'm still not clear what exactly happened.

It sounds like a "hold my beer and watch this" moment.

I've seen pictures of folks using the zipline at FS during some of the infomercial-like programs they run on digital cable.

It looked to me like....well.....like playing SF ninja.

Some people certainly may need training on the use of a zip line, or may want to acquire it, but in the context I saw it being used it was part of a gameshow like thing with SMGs. Definitely a

moment.

It sounds like the dead guy might have gotten ahead of himself and gone for a ride before he was cleared to do so, and might have ended up smacking his head into something at high speed.

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:18:53 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
I dont understand what this had to do with him colliding with the platform.

If the other guy was still on the line it could have caused the line to sag, and instead of landing on the platform the dead guy could have ended up smacking his head on something....

Or at least that's how it sounds to me.

I don't know squat about zip lines, however, so somebody more high-speed is going to have to fill us in.

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:19:15 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

"...was sliding down a zip line..."

"wheeee....look at meeee....I'm high speeeeTHUMP"

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:19:28 AM EDT

[#33]

I built a 100 yd zipline in the woods

It was very fun

It had nothing to do with "firearms training"

I got hurt several times doing ignorant shit on it

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:20:26 AM EDT

[#34]

Towers in the background.

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:23:30 AM EDT

[#35]

Swiped this from the firingline

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2424787

July 5, 2007

Dr. Ignatius Piazza
Founder and Director
http://www.frontsight.com

Front Sight Fatality

Thousands of students have safely and successfully participated in Front Sight's Rope, Rappel, and Climb courses over the last several years without incident.

Tragically, we experienced a fatality on the 1,000 ft Zip Line during the 8th Annual July 4th First Family Reunion.

We openly share the details of this safety incident so that others may learn from it and prevent such a tragedy from ever happening again.

Here Are The Facts:

* The incident occurred on July 4, 2007, during the annual First Family Reunion event.
* The time of day was approximately 7:15 p.m.
* The weather was clear, sunny, calm, with perfect visibility, and about 100 degrees.
* The incident occurred on one of our three Zip Lines which originate from the Rappelling Tower.
* Instructors working the Zip Line were seasoned Rope, Rappel, and Climb Instructors who had also instructed during previous July 4th Events.
* The zip lines are essentially steel cables which start high in the rappelling tower and extend in an arc to a pole about 1,000 feet in the distance.
* The participant is placed in a safety harness and helmet which is inspected for proper fit and function before two safety lines are secured to a trolley composed of two pulleys that are locked around the steel cable.
* Upon the instructor at the top of the Zip Line receiving a visual communication from the instructor at the bottom of the Zip Line, that all is clear, the participant is instructed to lean forward and drop down and away from the tower, riding below the steel cable under the force of gravity.
* The participant comes to a stop approximately 15-20 feet off the ground in a low point of the cable, at which time the instructor at the bottom of the Zip Line engages a large, steel, scissors lift platform to rise up to retrieve the participant from the cable. The platform is raised, the participant is detached from the overhead cable, reattached to the platform, and then lowered to the ground.
* Once the platform is safely secured in the down position, the participant is detached and walks off of the platform. At that point, there is visual confirmation between the instructor operating the platform at the bottom of the Zip Line and the instructor at the top of the Zip Line that the platform is down and the Zip Line is clear.
* The instructor at the top of the Zip Line, having visually confirmed the platform is down and the Zip Line is clear then instructs the next participant to lean forward and drop down and away from the tower riding below the steel cable under the force of gravity.
* The fatal incident occurred as one participant had completed the Zip Line ride and was hanging in the air waiting to be retrieved from the cable. The instructor at the bottom of the Zip Line, operating the platform, was still in the process of raising the platform to retrieve a participant and had not given any visual indicators that the zip line was clear when the instructor at the top of the Zip Line released another participant.
* When the instructor at the top of the Zip Line released the participant without receiving any visual confirmation to do so and failing to look and clearly see the lift platform was in the up position and the previous participant was still waiting to be retrieved, the instructor on the bottom of the Zip Line, operating the platform, attempted to quickly retrieve the first participant and lower the platform-- thus getting out of the way of the incoming participant.
* Tragically, the incoming participant impacted into the platform and was killed instantly.
* Front Sight staff immediately activated the 911 EMS system.
* Front Sight Paramedics were on the scene within three minutes and determined the participant was deceased.
* All three zip lines were immediately closed for the remainder of the event.
* Nye County EMS and Nye County Sheriff/Coroner arrived and conducted an investigation which lasted several hours.
* During the investigation, Front Sight staff and management cooperated completely and provided as much comfort as possible for the grieving family members of the deceased.
* A Front Sight staff member was assigned to remain with the grieving family, assisting them with anything they needed, and driving them safely home after they had made the
appropriate arrangements for their deceased family member.
* The entire group of participants were gathered together, informed of the tragedy, and the July 4th First Family Reunion concluded with the Front Sight management, staff, and hundreds of Front Sight members holding a candlelight memorial to pray for the grieving family and the soul of our deceased First Family member.

Feeling and Opinions:

No words can express the sorrow we feel as individuals and as an organization for the loss of one of our own in this tragic accident.

Unlike fatalities of unknown individuals that have occurred in numerous, well known theme parks and adventure resorts throughout the country, this tragedy took the life of a friend and loyal supporter of Front Sight. I knew him. He was a good, family man and he loved Front Sight.

Supporting his grieving wife in my arms with no adequate words to express my sadness and sorrow; seeing the tears of his young son and daughter as I must tell them their father has died in an accident; and breaking the news of a son's death to his mother and father fell on my shoulders as the Founder and Director of Front Sight. Such an emotional experience will never be forgotten.

I don't know how companies like Disneyland, Great America and others handle such situations, but I can tell you that Front Sight takes care of it's loyal and supportive members and will do what is right to assist the family of our First Family Member in any reasonable manner needed.

Let me make this perfectly clear: This tragedy was not the fault of our fallen First Family Member.

We have fully reviewed our training and standard operating procedures and have found them to be totally safe and effective as evidenced by the thousands of previous Zip Line participants. This incident was the result of gross human error in failing to follow well known, very simple, and extremely affective safety protocol on the part of a single instructor. We have taken the immediate and appropriate actions to permanently remedy that situation.

Sincerely,

Dr. Ignatius Piazza
Founder and Director
Front Sight

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:24:00 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I dont understand what this had to do with him colliding with the platform.

If the other guy was still on the line it could have caused the line to sag, and instead of landing on the platform the dead guy could have ended up smacking his head on something....

Or at least that's how it sounds to me.

I don't know squat about zip lines, however, so somebody more high-speed is going to have to fill us in.

They really serve no purpose other than to give the rider a false sense of "accomplishment".

If "holding on" is a skill, you win.

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:28:16 AM EDT

[#37]

That was about how I was figuring it.

And a 1000' zip line as part of a ropes class? A zip line that a guy in a scissor lift takes you off of?

It's an amusement ride. May as well have been a tilt-a-whirl.

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:29:59 AM EDT

[#38]

That seems like a damn complicated way to go about doing that...

Quoted:
Swiped this from the firingline

* The participant comes to a stop approximately 15-20 feet off the ground in a low point of the cable, at which time the instructor at the bottom of the Zip Line engages a large, steel, scissors lift platform to rise up to retrieve the participant from the cable. The platform is raised, the participant is detached from the overhead cable, reattached to the platform, and then lowered to the ground.

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:33:16 AM EDT

[#39]

* The instructor at the top of the Zip Line, having visually confirmed the platform is down and the Zip Line is clear then instructs the next participant to lean forward and drop down and away from the tower riding below the steel cable under the force of gravity.
* The fatal incident occurred as one participant had completed the Zip Line ride and was hanging in the air waiting to be retrieved from the cable. The instructor at the bottom of the Zip Line, operating the platform, was still in the process of raising the platform to retrieve a participant and had not given any visual indicators that the zip line was clear when the instructor at the top of the Zip Line released another participant.
* When the instructor at the top of the Zip Line released the participant without receiving any visual confirmation to do so and failing to look and clearly see the lift platform was in the up position and the previous participant was still waiting to be retrieved, the instructor on the bottom of the Zip Line, operating the platform, attempted to quickly retrieve the first participant and lower the platform-- thus getting out of the way of the incoming participant.
* Tragically, the incoming participant impacted into the platform and was killed instantly.

Sadly, looks like FS made a mistake...

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:33:31 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Swiped this from the firingline

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2424787

Thank you,,,Now I understand what happened better

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:36:04 AM EDT

[#41]

* When the instructor at the top of the Zip Line released the participant without receiving any visual confirmation to do so and failing to look and clearly see the lift platform was in the up position and the previous participant was still waiting to be retrieved...

Nice job of admitting the negligence of your employee. You may now proceed directly to the damages portion of the trial.

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:42:01 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
That seems like a damn complicated way to go about doing that...

Quoted:
Swiped this from the firingline

* The participant comes to a stop approximately 15-20 feet off the ground in a low point of the cable, at which time the instructor at the bottom of the Zip Line engages a large, steel, scissors lift platform to rise up to retrieve the participant from the cable. The platform is raised, the participant is detached from the overhead cable, reattached to the platform, and then lowered to the ground.

At least there would be no risk of collision with the anchor at the other end.
I wonder why the instructor at the top even let the guy hook up while other person was on the line? Should have a rule that only one person on the line at any time, no matter what. Maybe rushing things...

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:42:03 AM EDT

[#43]

Terrible accident, I am sorry for the family and the company.

I do wish there was a Front Sight , in every state.

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:43:11 AM EDT

[#44]

All right! After 2 pages of jokes about the dead guy and people struggling to explain why this "negligence" is totally different from Six Flag's "negligence" we finally are able to see that indeed these two events are similar.

Now we can finally get down to the "SUE THEM FOR ALL THEY ARE WORTH!" posts.

Quoted:
Terrible accident, I am sorry for the family and the company.

I do wish there was a Front Sight , in every state.

Or not.

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:51:55 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

* When the instructor at the top of the Zip Line released the participant without receiving any visual confirmation to do so and failing to look and clearly see the lift platform was in the up position and the previous participant was still waiting to be retrieved...

Nice job of admitting the negligence of your employee. You may now proceed directly to the damages portion of the trial.

Yikes....

That one sentence is going to prove quite expensive.

I wonder why they chose this design of zipline that requires retrieval of the first rider and the raising/lowering of a platform. There are simpler ways of designing a zipline. Is there something special about this zipline course?

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:53:05 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
Swiped this from the firingline

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2424787

Sincerely,

Dr. Ignatius Piazza
Founder and Director
Front Sight

It took a lot of Guts and Integrity for Piazza to admit all of that. I hope they don't get sued into bankruptcy as a result.

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:54:43 AM EDT

[#47]

Had the instructor reached the point of "clear" a tragic event such as this would have never happened.

The engrams planted by Xenu in the instructor's reactive mind caused the distraction that led to this accident.

Posted: 7/13/2007 10:55:15 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

* When the instructor at the top of the Zip Line released the participant without receiving any visual confirmation to do so and failing to look and clearly see the lift platform was in the up position and the previous participant was still waiting to be retrieved...

Nice job of admitting the negligence of your employee. You may now proceed directly to the damages portion of the trial.

Yikes....

That one sentence is going to prove quite expensive.

I wonder why they chose this design of zipline that requires retrieval of the first rider and the raising/lowering of a plo be totatform. There are simpler ways of designing a zipline. Is there something special about this zipline course?

Read the end.

Let me make this perfectly clear: This tragedy was not the fault of our fallen First Family Member.

We have fully reviewed our training and standard operating procedures and have found them tally safe and effective as evidenced by the thousands of previous Zip Line participants. This incident was the result of gross human error in failing to follow well known, very simple, and extremely affective safety protocol on the part of a single instructor. We have taken the immediate and appropriate actions to permanently remedy that situation.

Posted: 7/13/2007 11:04:43 AM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
Read the end.

Let me make this perfectly clear: This tragedy was not the fault of our fallen First Family Member.

We have fully reviewed our training and standard operating procedures and have found them tally safe and effective as evidenced by the thousands of previous Zip Line participants. This incident was the result of gross human error in failing to follow well known, very simple, and extremely affective safety protocol on the part of a single instructor. We have taken the immediate and appropriate actions to permanently remedy that situation.

Even worse for them, since they're basically admitting gross negligence. No matter how good their policies and procedures are, if an employee screws up, it's on them. As long as he's acting within the scope of his employment (which it certainly looks like he was), the employer will be on the hook for his actions. And gross negligence or deviation from procedures by the employee will normally not be enough to get out of it.

Really, people. Call your lawyer before you release statements to the interweb.

Also, WTF is a "First Family Member"? Some sort of scientology thing?

Posted: 7/13/2007 11:06:28 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:

Read the end.

Let me make this perfectly clear: This tragedy was not the fault of our fallen First Family Member.

We have fully reviewed our training and standard operating procedures and have found them tally safe and effective as evidenced by the thousands of previous Zip Line participants. This incident was the result of gross human error in failing to follow well known, very simple, and extremely affective safety protocol on the part of a single instructor. We have taken the immediate and appropriate actions to permanently remedy that situation.

I.e., that other guy did it, please sue him and not us.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Fatal accident at Front Sight (Page 1 of 2)

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