Fatal accident at Front Sight - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Fatal accident at Front Sight (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 7/13/2007 11:09:59 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:
STFATAW

FS of course makes all students sign a waiver acknowledging that being there carries a risk of injury or death. It will be interesting to see how that pans out.

Every instructor school I've attended you sign a waiver. Just because somebody signs a waiver does not mean it won't be challenged.

Kind of like prenups.

next-of-kin rarely sign waivers, and usually are the ones doing the suing, no the deceased.

Posted: 7/13/2007 11:18:31 AM EDT

[#2]

A zip line is what the military calls a "slide for life," correct?

Posted: 7/13/2007 11:19:35 AM EDT

[#3]

The website looks like a ten year old put it together, vague inaccurate photo's.

It also Looks like the mall ninja behind the Extreme Shock advertising.

Oh what an abomination for the gun community.

Posted: 7/13/2007 11:21:09 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
A zip line is what the military calls a "slide for life," correct?

Yes, although this one sounds closer to the 34 foot towers at jump school. You slide down and somebody has to unclip you at the lowest point.

With the slides for life that I've seen, you're not connected and just let go.

Posted: 7/13/2007 11:30:08 AM EDT

[#5]

That letter posted amazes me, they made a big mistake by admitting to all of that. While it is all probably true, they are gonna be screwed now for sure.

Posted: 7/13/2007 11:30:36 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
A zip line is what the military calls a "slide for life," correct?

Yes, although this one sounds closer to the 34 foot towers at jump school. You slide down and somebody has to unclip you at the lowest point.

With the slides for life that I've seen, you're not connected and just let go.

That's what it sounds like to me. I was having a hard time visualizing what they were talking about with the "Scissors lift" and all.

Posted: 7/13/2007 11:37:48 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I dont understand what this had to do with him colliding with the platform.

If the other guy was still on the line it could have caused the line to sag, and instead of landing on the platform the dead guy could have ended up smacking his head on something....

Or at least that's how it sounds to me.

I don't know squat about zip lines, however, so somebody more high-speed is going to have to fill us in.

Possible scenario...he was coming in...seen other guy and tried to bale going to fast and hit the platform.

Wonder why he was not wearing protective head gear? Not enough info here...

EDITED TO ADD...read the FS press release after this post

Posted: 7/13/2007 11:38:07 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
That letter posted amazes me, they made a big mistake by admitting to all of that. While it is all probably true, they are gonna be screwed now for sure.

I'd be willing to bet w whole bunch of $$ that Dr. IP's statement was fully reviewed by a pack of Attorneys before it was released.

Posted: 7/13/2007 11:58:16 AM EDT

[#9]

one less scientologist. no big deal. Maybe they should have a you must at least this smart to ride this ride sign. What a dumbass.

Posted: 7/13/2007 12:04:16 PM EDT

[#10]

You have mail! ~ 82nd

A pro gun, pro-second amendment citizen builds a shooting school from nothing and encourages gun ownership and rights...

...and some of you have nothing good to say about the school, Dr Piazza, or Front Sight. You internet commandos can get out of the basement and go build your own school then because I'm sure it would be so much better and safer.

Worthless assholes.

As for the zip lines, they probably have them to attract the internet commandos.

Posted: 7/13/2007 12:15:47 PM EDT

[#11]

So is a zip line tactical?

Am I getting ripped off when I go to to other places that don't have zip line training?

Are they shooting while riding on the zip line?

Posted: 7/13/2007 12:16:41 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
A few years back, Front Site, IIRC, threatened to sue arfcom (as well as GlockTalk, and a few other forums) because people were complaining about their facility.

Quoted:
A pro gun, pro-second amendment citizen

Looks like he skipped an amendment

Posted: 7/13/2007 12:20:56 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
A zip line is what the military calls a "slide for life," correct?

Yes, although this one sounds closer to the 34 foot towers at jump school. You slide down and somebody has to unclip you at the lowest point.

With the slides for life that I've seen, you're not connected and just let go.

This tower and the angle and distance of the slide surpasses anything I have ever seen.

Posted: 7/13/2007 12:25:48 PM EDT

[#14]

the purpose of a zip line or slide for life is a confidence builder nothing more IMHO....

one with a bunch of safeties is just an amusement ride.....

but they are fun.....

Posted: 7/13/2007 12:27:49 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
That letter posted amazes me, they made a big mistake by admitting to all of that. While it is all probably true, they are gonna be screwed now for sure.

I'd be willing to bet w whole bunch of $$ that Dr. IP's statement was fully reviewed by a pack of Attorneys before it was released.

You know, releasing that letter may be the one thing that saves them. Juries give BIG verdicts when they get mad. When a defendant tries to hide the obvious, or worse, lies, juries go nuts.

The best eay to defuse it is to admit you screwed up, and ask the jury to award an appropriate amount. Damage control. They don't have near as much to get mad about. Also, takes away punitives in a lot of cases.

Might be a real smart move, especially with the facts as obvious and easy to prove as they are.

Posted: 7/13/2007 12:35:54 PM EDT

[#16]

www.frontsight.com/RopeAndClimb/

Welcome to the World's Greatest Rope, Rappel and Climb Facility at Front Sight Resort Las Vegas!

Front Sight Resort Las Vegas is very pleased to present the most fabulous rope, rappel and climb facility anywhere in the world! For those of you that have never experienced the thrill and adventure, and just pure fun, of a rope, rappel or climb course, you've come to the right place. And for those of you that love the challenge of rope, rappel or climb courses, Front Sight Resort is as good as it gets anywhere. And best of all, we've designed our courses to accommodate all levels of experience, from the beginner through experienced climber, and for all ages.

Experience the Thrill and Adventure of Our High-Angle Environments, While You Build Your Skill and Confidence.

We've not only put together a World Class Facility, we've created World Class Courses to build and challenge your skills. You can choose from introductory courses that are just pure fun, and introduce you and your family to the thrill of ropes and climbing, or choose more advanced technical courses for the experienced climber. You can train on our highly regarded Odyssey Ropes Course, with both low ropes activities, and high ropes up to 55 feet above the ground. Our Alpine Tower II, the world's largest jungle gym will thrill you and challenge both your mind and body. Our 1,000-foot zip lines are guaranteed to get your adrenaline pumping.

Check out the Diamond Membership!

Only $49,900!!!

HAIL XENU!!!

Posted: 7/13/2007 12:43:11 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
That letter posted amazes me, they made a big mistake by admitting to all of that. While it is all probably true, they are gonna be screwed now for sure.

How so?
They admitted what they did was wrong. They manned up and openly said, "We screwed up."

Prayers for the family.

Posted: 7/13/2007 12:45:55 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
A few years back, Front Site, IIRC, threatened to sue arfcom (as well as GlockTalk, and a few other forums) because people were complaining about their facility.

Quoted:
A pro gun, pro-second amendment citizen

Looks like he skipped an amendment

You can say what you want but you will held accountable for it...and can be sued if you slander.

Posted: 7/13/2007 12:53:11 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
STFATAW

FS of course makes all students sign a waiver acknowledging that being there carries a risk of injury or death. It will be interesting to see how that pans out.

A waiver is meaningless if there is negligence. It isn't need if there isn't but a GOOD waiver does turn away a lot of lawyers before it gets that far.

Posted: 7/13/2007 1:06:14 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Anybody have pictures of said zip line? I'm still not clear what exactly happened.[/quot]

This explains it........

Posted: 7/13/2007 1:16:45 PM EDT

[#21]

The rope stuff at Frontsight, as far as I know has nothing to do with firearms training. I have never taken that particular class but I was always under the impression that it was something for your wife and kids to take while you were taking a firearms class or just as a fun class you can take there that is not firearms related. . I know it is a big part of the kid's programs. I suppose they use it to overcome their fears, improve their self-confidence as well as having fun.

A First Family member basically means that you bought a membership in Front Sight. They have various memberships that entitle you to take the specified courses as many times as you want for life. The more you pay, the more different classes you can take with your membership. This is a fantastic concept in firearms training. I try to take the basic handgun, shotgun, and rifle class every year at least once to refresh my skills and keep tuned up. I have taken Practical Rifle with an AR15 using iron sights, ACOG, and an Aimpoint there, so I got to take the same class three different times with three different sighting systems and got to see which one worked the best for me. At any other school I would have had to pay three times in order to try that. But, I have a Front Sight First Family membership so whenever I have a free weekend, I can sign up for a class. I have taken the basic handgun class with a 1911, a Glock, and a revolver as another example.
FWIW, since I bought my membership I have taken 17 classes. Prior to buying the Front Sight membership, I took four classes at Gunsite. Each one was over $1000 and if I wanted to take any one of them again, I would have to pay an additional $1000+.

I didn't personally know the guy that got killed (I don't think) but I heard from several other people that they had taken a number of courses with him and he was a really great guy. What a shame.

Posted: 7/13/2007 1:24:26 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
A few years back, Front Site, IIRC, threatened to sue arfcom (as well as GlockTalk, and a few other forums) because people were complaining about their facility.

Quoted:
A pro gun, pro-second amendment citizen

Looks like he skipped an amendment

You can say what you want but you will held accountable for it...and can be sued if you slander.

So, in other words, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. It's cool though. All you have to do is educate yourself by going to thefiringline.com, for example, and searching the archives for more information.

Either that, or you drink the Scientologist koolaid and believe their shit don't stink and that any criticism leveled at them is "slander". Even though libel is probably the word you're looking for.

Posted: 7/13/2007 1:40:29 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
That letter posted amazes me, they made a big mistake by admitting to all of that. While it is all probably true, they are gonna be screwed now for sure.

How so?
They admitted what they did was wrong. They manned up and openly said, "We screwed up."

Prayers for the family.

I am no legal expert, but I would not release anything like that without consulting attorneys.

Yes I agree it is good they "manned up" and admitted they were in the wrong.

I am just thinking that legally it may not of been the best thing to do.

Now if they did consult their attorney's and that is what they advised then OK.

Either way FS is gonna get nailed on this big time.

Posted: 7/13/2007 2:27:38 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
A few years back, Front Site, IIRC, threatened to sue arfcom (as well as GlockTalk, and a few other forums) because people were complaining about their facility.

Quoted:
A pro gun, pro-second amendment citizen

Looks like he skipped an amendment

You can say what you want but you will held accountable for it...and can be sued if you slander.

So, in other words, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. It's cool though. All you have to do is educate yourself by going to thefiringline.com, for example, and searching the archives for more information.

Either that, or you drink the Scientologist koolaid and believe their shit don't stink and that any criticism leveled at them is "slander". Even though libel is probably the word you're looking for.

What I do know is that I've attended Front Sight and not one single mention of "Scientology" or "L Ron" or "Tom Cruise" was mentioned. I know that the instruction was good to go based on my military and police experience. I know that FS and Dr Piazza support the 2nd Amendment and gun ownership. I know that FS is there to encite firearm enthusiasm.

I also know from what I read here is that pleny of people criticize Piazza or FS and yet never attended or met the guy. Typical of the sniveling, low self-esteem that's often prevalent here.

Posted: 7/13/2007 2:28:03 PM EDT

[#25]

How fast do you all suppose that guy was going when he crashed into that platform?

Posted: 7/13/2007 3:29:38 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
I also know from what I read here is that pleny of people criticize Piazza or FS and yet never attended or met the guy. Typical of the sniveling, low self-esteem that's often prevalent here.

One needn't snivel or suffer from a dearth of self-esteem to recognize that scientology is a moonbat cult and members are in it for the moolah.

HAIL XENU!

Posted: 7/13/2007 3:32:53 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Either way FS is gonna get nailed on this big time.

If one of their instructors made a fatal error, than they need to pay the piper.

Posted: 7/13/2007 3:37:06 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
one less scientologist. no big deal. Maybe they should have a you must at least this smart to ride this ride sign. What a dumbass.

sigh

It was NOT the rider's fault.

The INSTRUCTOR did not make sure it was clear before the individual could go.

It's like going on a slide at a waterpark. With a lot of the slides, they're very fast. You climb to the top and sit down in the "pre-slide" pool. You have to WAIT, and this means that the guard at the top has to LOOK and see that "Slider A" went down all the way before "Slider B" can go down.

However, this is a hundred times different than a water slide.

Posted: 7/13/2007 3:39:57 PM EDT

[#29]

shouldve stuck to playing BF2

Posted: 7/13/2007 3:40:46 PM EDT

[#30]

Someone please tell me how and what scientology has to do with this?

Posted: 7/13/2007 3:50:42 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Someone please tell me how and what scientology has to do with this?

+1

Posted: 7/13/2007 3:53:43 PM EDT

[#32]

Front Sight's founder and leader is chiropractor and scientologist Ignatius Piazza.

http://www.xenu.net/archive/WIR/

http://scientology-facts.blogspot.com/2005/12/scientologist-facing-class-action.html

http://stop-wise.biz/Frontsight/index.html

tons more on Google.

The training may be decent, but pales in comparison with the marketing.

Posted: 7/13/2007 3:57:02 PM EDT

[#33]

Rapelling accident plain and simple!

Do rock climbers sue the National Park service when they fall off El Capitan?

Posted: 7/13/2007 4:03:01 PM EDT

[#34]

Phew! When I read the thread title I thought it might have been Marky Mark. I'll be pissed if there's no Shooter II.

Posted: 7/13/2007 4:17:10 PM EDT

[#35]

"The training may be decent, but pales in comparison with the marketing."

Really ?
Please give us the details.

Posted: 7/13/2007 4:35:08 PM EDT

[#36]

Any place that can convince people to shell out 3 to 50G for a membership is a marketing machine.

Is the place delivering on what they promise?

Judge says no.

More from the local newspaper

More from the local TV station

Posted: 7/13/2007 4:40:41 PM EDT

[#37]

That is why I trained at Blackwater.

Front Sight just seems WAY, WAY too commercial and "theme park" like for my tastes. The owner seems kind of like a used car salesman to me, but thats just my personal vibe I get from watching his videos.

Besides Blackwater is about half the cost of that place.

Posted: 7/13/2007 6:44:58 PM EDT

[#38]

Visual confirmation? Have these people never heard of two way radios? I'm surprised, this hasn't happened sooner with the procedures they appear to be using.

Posted: 7/13/2007 6:45:31 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
Visual confirmation? Have these people never heard of two way radios? I'm surprised, this hasn't happened sooner with the procedures they appear to be using.

no kidding.
Two ways are cheap.

Posted: 8/16/2007 5:35:55 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Is the place delivering on what they promise?

Judge says no.

Sorry dude but do you have a link to a pro-gun blog instead? The rage from reading their anti-gun rhetoric clouded my vision...

"But of course the height of irony in all of this is that Piazza is promising that Front Sight, a community built around the ownership and use of firearms, will be “the safest town in America.” Guns are anything but safe– that’s why they don’t allow them inside the real Disneyland (or, you know, schools or most government buildings)."

Posted: 8/16/2007 5:44:01 PM EDT

[#41]

What in the world does sliding down a slide line have to do with making people learn how to shoot well.

Wannabe commando stuff, the average guy will get hurt ,

Posted: 8/16/2007 5:48:14 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Is the place delivering on what they promise?

Judge says no.

Sorry dude but do you have a link to a pro-gun blog instead? The rage from reading their anti-gun rhetoric clouded my vision...

"But of course the height of irony in all of this is that Piazza is promising that Front Sight, a community built around the ownership and use of firearms, will be “the safest town in America.” Guns are anything but safe– that’s why they don’t allow them inside the real Disneyland (or, you know, schools or most government buildings)."

Were the other two links you edited out not objective enough for you, dude?

Posted: 8/16/2007 5:56:17 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Were the other two links you edited out not objective enough for you, dude?

Didn't make it that far - still trying to unpiss off from an arfcommer using gun-banners as legitimate journalists...

Posted: 8/16/2007 6:00:08 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
That letter posted amazes me, they made a big mistake by admitting to all of that. While it is all probably true, they are gonna be screwed now for sure.

While there was a screw-up and FS is open to litigation, I have to admit it was good for them to come clean and admit, "There was a screw up."

Posted: 8/16/2007 6:04:22 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Were the other two links you edited out not objective enough for you, dude?

Didn't make it that far - still trying to unpiss off from an arfcommer using gun-banners as legitimate journalists...

The link came from a search on Frontsight, not from regularly using that site.

The other links are from legitimate news media outlets.

Posted: 8/16/2007 6:07:06 PM EDT

[#46]

I wouldn't do ropeswork at a firearms training facility just like I wouldn't do gun training at a mountaineering school. WTF?

Posted: 8/16/2007 6:10:04 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Were the other two links you edited out not objective enough for you, dude?

Didn't make it that far - still trying to unpiss off from an arfcommer using gun-banners as legitimate journalists...

The link came from a search on Frontsight, not from regularly using that site.

The other links are from legitimate news media outlets.

Fair enough

Posted: 8/16/2007 6:19:03 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
I wouldn't do ropeswork at a firearms training facility just like I wouldn't do gun training at a mountaineering school. WTF?

At a decent firearms facility (I'm thinking Blackwater here) there are instructors who are competent in ropeswork just as they are in weapons training.

Just like with firearms training, you have to research and find out what kind of outfit they run before you trust them to watch out for your life.

Posted: 8/16/2007 6:20:16 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I wouldn't do ropeswork at a firearms training facility just like I wouldn't do gun training at a mountaineering school. WTF?

At a decent firearms facility (I'm thinking Blackwater here) there are instructors who are competent in ropeswork just as they are in weapons training.

Just like with firearms training, you have to research and find out what kind of outfit they run before you trust them to watch out for your life.

I guess at Blackwater it'd be cool. I'd be checking my own shit though.

Posted: 8/16/2007 6:22:04 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:

Fair enough

No prob here, I should have read more on that site before posting it.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Fatal accident at Front Sight (Page 2 of 2)

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