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Posted: 3/25/2017 12:18:09 AM EDT
Just gonna leave the pole up and watch it burn

I like to measure efficiency in joules and penetration
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 12:19:46 AM EDT
IBTP. Are we shooting turkeys or bad guys?
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 12:19:52 AM EDT
IBTP

Also within 25yards I would stick with 12ga and slugs for one or two targets.  For more than that, I'd go semi-auto 308.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 12:20:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 12:20:58 AM EDT
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Quoted:
IBTP. Are we shooting turkeys or bad guys?
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I was in on this joke until I actually looked up the numbers for some 12GA loads; had no idea how effective they were
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 12:28:31 AM EDT
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Quoted:
depends on the load  and shot placement in either.  

308 beats birdshot. 

1oz slug in 3" shell likely beats anything loaded in 308
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I don't see any bird shot as one of the choices. Am I missing something?

I don't consider 9 .38 caliber lead pellets bird shot.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 12:31:19 AM EDT
I'm gonna go with 168 grain Barnes VOR-TX.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 12:33:13 AM EDT
Light .308 soft points are probably going to out-damage buckshot or slugs.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 12:34:31 AM EDT
Bigger hole= bigger problem.
I know for deer/hog hunting where I knew no shots over 25 yards were possible, I would bring a 12 over a .308 every damn day of the week.

For stoping an animal quickly at ranges less than 25 yards, .308 isn't even in the same league as a 12 guage. Problem is follow-ups.

12 guage with hunting load slugs/buck is the ultimate close range ambush weapon. Don't miss though, 3" 15 pellet 00 buck is a stout load.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 12:35:24 AM EDT


ETA: not mine
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 12:36:41 AM EDT
A zone shot placement? If so, I think .308 unless 12 gauge slugs involved. Way too many unanswered variables in this thread IMHO.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 12:37:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 12:38:05 AM EDT
.50BMG wins.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 12:43:01 AM EDT
.308. 

Not as good as 5.56 but still better than 12 ga for lot of the same reasons ,mostly centered around the weapon not as much as the caliber. 

Also, [email protected] all the already made analogies to hunting, and all of the ones to follow, since people are not animals and don't react the same.

[email protected] all the people who will talk about how great a shotgun is because of math, but don't actually train or HD type stuff with them to know their strengths and weaknesses. Which of course leads them to not being able to articulate anything of not and rely on shitty analogies and arguments based around narrow world views. (and butthurt) 

Also, can't wait to see the normal tryhads who will cry about people being "keyboard commando's".  
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 12:50:23 AM EDT
Since 5.56 is not an option,  12g Foster slugs are  good medicine to minimize collateral damage.  And, well...Kalifornia.  1oz ingots at 1600 fps is adequate for any scenario at 25 yards or less, barring cyborgs.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 12:54:15 AM EDT
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Quoted:
Light .308 soft points are probably going to out-damage buckshot or slugs.
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not under 25 yards. Google minie ball ballistic wound. Modern 3" slugs have a 60% advantage in muzzle velocity. My personal experience with 30-06, half the time 150 grn soft points act like varmint rounds when they hit bone under 50 yards.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 12:54:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 12:56:25 AM EDT
I would go with 12ga 00 buckshot with flite control wad. Capacity may be less than a full mag of .308, but 8 in the tube and 6 or 7 more in a side saddle should be more than enough to deal with any defense situation you would ever encounter.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 12:57:09 AM EDT
Yeah 12 gauge is devastating close range. Can't go wrong with 00 Buckshot for home defense. Keep some slugs on the side saddle just in case.

Of course rifles with a suppressor is a bit more hearing safe and compact. I like 300BLK.

I'm also a fan of suppressed subguns. Full auto may dump of Mp5 into a bad guy will kill him and be quiet about it. 
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 12:58:56 AM EDT
I'm going with 00 Buck. If it's under 25 yards then accuracy is going to be relatively similar regardless and the only thing worse than getting shot once is being shot 9-15 times at once. Shotgun fights are generally quick and messy.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 1:04:21 AM EDT
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Quoted:
I'm going with 00 Buck. If it's under 25 yards then accuracy is going to be relatively similar regardless and the only thing worse than getting shot once is being shot 9-15 times at once. Shotgun fights are generally quick and messy.
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Eta: It bears mentioning that I'd rather have a real AR in any kind of fight, but living in CA that isn't a real option for me anymore. I've gotten used to my Magpul'd 8-shot Mossberg as the new HD gun. It'll do in a pinch.


Ha! That was supposed to be an edit. Maybe those homebrews are stronger than I thought...
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 1:11:29 AM EDT
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Quoted:


Eta: It bears mentioning that I'd rather have a real AR in any kind of fight, but living in CA that isn't a real option for me anymore. I've gotten used to my Magpul'd 8-shot Mossberg as the new HD gun. It'll do in a pinch.


Ha! That was supposed to be an edit. Maybe those homebrews are stronger than I thought...
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Did someone say bears? 
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 1:14:38 AM EDT
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Quoted:
Did someone say bears? 
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Quoted:
Quoted:


Eta: It bears mentioning that I'd rather have a real AR in any kind of fight, but living in CA that isn't a real option for me anymore. I've gotten used to my Magpul'd 8-shot Mossberg as the new HD gun. It'll do in a pinch.


Ha! That was supposed to be an edit. Maybe those homebrews are stronger than I thought...
Did someone say bears? 
I look like a bear, if that makes any difference.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 1:17:39 AM EDT
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Quoted:
.308. 

Not as good as 5.56 but still better than 12 ga for lot of the same reasons ,mostly centered around the weapon not as much as the caliber. 

Also, [email protected] all the already made analogies to hunting, and all of the ones to follow, since people are not animals and don't react the same.

[email protected] all the people who will talk about how great a shotgun is because of math, but don't actually train or HD type stuff with them to know their strengths and weaknesses. Which of course leads them to not being able to articulate anything of not and rely on shitty analogies and arguments based around narrow world views. (and butthurt) 

Also, can't wait to see the normal tryhads who will cry about people being "keyboard commando's".  
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people are not mammals? Fuck my public school education.

I do not know of any competent professional Hunter who would choose a .308 over a 12 guage slug to stop a charge.

Does a shotgun have drawbacks? Of course, like I said above, don't miss.  
Does .308 have issues? Yes, bullet selection is limited for home defense ranges. They are designed to impact at speeds a lot closer to 2200 fps than muzzle velocity. Bullet failure is pretty common at extremely close range.

We have loads of historical data for what happens when young healthy males with bad intentions get hit with many different cartridges.

1oz chunks of lead were not abandoned because of lethality, but because of weight, size, range restrictions, and the rainbow trajectory.

I am sorry you refuse to believe it, but empirical data gathered over 150 years proves you wrong. .70 Cal 1oz soft lead slugs traveling @ 1250 fps are more effective hit for hit at stopping a enemy soldier than .308
Period.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 1:27:51 AM EDT
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Quoted:
people are not mammals? Fuck my public school education.

I do not know of any competent professional Hunter who would choose a .308 over a 12 guage slug to stop a charge.

Does a shotgun have drawbacks? Of course, like I said above, don't miss.  
Does .308 have issues? Yes, bullet selection is limited for home defense ranges. They are designed to impact at speeds a lot closer to 2200 fps than muzzle velocity. Bullet failure is pretty common at extremely close range.

We have loads of historical data for what happens when young healthy males with bad intentions get hit with many different cartridges.

1oz chunks of lead were not abandoned because of lethality, but because of weight, size, range restrictions, and the rainbow trajectory.

I am sorry you refuse to believe it, but empirical data gathered over 150 years proves you wrong. .70 Cal 1oz soft lead slugs traveling @ 1250 fps are more effective hit for hit at stopping a enemy soldier than .308
Period.
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Well, if nothing else, you supported my statements pretty well, so I eel at least a little vindicated. 
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 1:31:36 AM EDT
LOL... charging animals...  god damn ENTIRE thread is predicated on SD/HD which implies humans, you know those mammals that carry guns too and do shit like proactively try not to get shot? 

I guess if people just charged weaponless in HD/SD scenario's shotguns would be the perfect answer every time LOL. 
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 1:38:30 AM EDT
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Quoted:
I look like a bear, if that makes any difference.
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Quoted:


Eta: It bears mentioning that I'd rather have a real AR in any kind of fight, but living in CA that isn't a real option for me anymore. I've gotten used to my Magpul'd 8-shot Mossberg as the new HD gun. It'll do in a pinch.


Ha! That was supposed to be an edit. Maybe those homebrews are stronger than I thought...
Did someone say bears? 
I look like a bear, if that makes any difference.
LOL, sorry, I agree with your post but we gotta get this GD shotgun thread rolling.   It usually takes 3-4 pages before bears come into it, and I couldn't pass up the opportunity.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 1:38:42 AM EDT
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Quoted:
LOL... charging animals...  god damn ENTIRE thread is predicated on SD/HD which implies humans, you know those mammals that carry guns too and do shit like proactively try not to get shot? 

I guess if people just charged weaponless in HD/SD scenario's shotguns would be the perfect answer every time LOL. 
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And your whole life seems to be dedicated to showing how smart you are running down a shot gun (EVEN WITH 00 BUCKSHOT) for home defense!
Really, you should get out of your older sister's basement and away from the computer and see the real world!
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 1:41:25 AM EDT
SA shotgun with slugs. Otherwise, 308 carbine with some really soft, polymer-tipped rounds.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 1:43:53 AM EDT
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Quoted:
people are not mammals? Fuck my public school education.

I do not know of any competent professional Hunter who would choose a .308 over a 12 guage slug to stop a charge.

Does a shotgun have drawbacks? Of course, like I said above, don't miss.  
Does .308 have issues? Yes, bullet selection is limited for home defense ranges. They are designed to impact at speeds a lot closer to 2200 fps than muzzle velocity. Bullet failure is pretty common at extremely close range.

We have loads of historical data for what happens when young healthy males with bad intentions get hit with many different cartridges.

1oz chunks of lead were not abandoned because of lethality, but because of weight, size, range restrictions, and the rainbow trajectory.

I am sorry you refuse to believe it, but empirical data gathered over 150 years proves you wrong. .70 Cal 1oz soft lead slugs traveling @ 1250 fps are more effective hit for hit at stopping a enemy soldier than .308
Period.
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So incredibly wrong.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 1:44:48 AM EDT
Single shot, bolt, pump, or full auto short bbl?
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 1:52:55 AM EDT
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Quoted:
And your whole life seems to be dedicated to showing how smart you are running down a shot gun (EVEN WITH 00 BUCKSHOT) for home defense!
Really, you should get out of your older sister's basement and away from the computer and see the real world!
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Quoted:
Quoted:
LOL... charging animals...  god damn ENTIRE thread is predicated on SD/HD which implies humans, you know those mammals that carry guns too and do shit like proactively try not to get shot? 

I guess if people just charged weaponless in HD/SD scenario's shotguns would be the perfect answer every time LOL. 
And your whole life seems to be dedicated to showing how smart you are running down a shot gun (EVEN WITH 00 BUCKSHOT) for home defense!
Really, you should get out of your older sister's basement and away from the computer and see the real world!
a tryhard appears! 
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 1:56:04 AM EDT
@daa9mm you should totally post up your training and experience so everyone can know how authoritative you are when it comes to these threads. 
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 2:01:58 AM EDT
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Quoted:
And your whole life seems to be dedicated to showing how smart you are running down a shot gun (EVEN WITH 00 BUCKSHOT) for home defense!
Really, you should get out of your older sister's basement and away from the computer and see the real world!
View Quote
You didn’t notice the EGA below his avatar?  The guy is a combat vet so maybe basement jokes are misplaced.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 2:08:54 AM EDT
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Quoted:
You didn’t notice the EGA below his avatar?  The guy is a combat vet so maybe basement jokes are misplaced.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
And your whole life seems to be dedicated to showing how smart you are running down a shot gun (EVEN WITH 00 BUCKSHOT) for home defense!
Really, you should get out of your older sister's basement and away from the computer and see the real world!
You didn’t notice the EGA below his avatar?  The guy is a combat vet so maybe basement jokes are misplaced.
He always does that in every thread like this.   Don't know if it's jealousy, he thinks he can get under my skin, or that he thinks people will eventually buy in.  It's pretty crazy, but entertaining. Feel bad for him (and those like him who came before, he's one of many like this who just ankle bites me, but won't do anything more or less). 
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 2:16:15 AM EDT
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He always does that in every thread like this.   Don't know if it's jealousy, he thinks he can get under my skin, or that he thinks people will eventually buy in.  It's pretty crazy, but entertaining. Feel bad for him (and those like him who came before, he's one of many like this who just ankle bites me, but won't do anything more or less). 
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Well if he's calling you out like that he should post up something to back it up.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 2:24:42 AM EDT
I'll take the rifle every time. I like shotguns, they are fun, and under some circumstances (close range with buck, medium range with slug) they can be employed successfully, but I'll take either my AR10 or my FAL with me if I'm actually expecting trouble.
Saiga12 with 15rd drum. Has never missed a beat with buck shot or slugs. I wouldn't feel sorry for myself if this is what I was holding when shit went down inside my home. Would still rather have the 20rds in either of my rifles.
Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 2:37:45 AM EDT
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Quoted:
LOL... charging animals...  god damn ENTIRE thread is predicated on SD/HD which implies humans, you know those mammals that carry guns too and do shit like proactively try not to get shot? 

I guess if people just charged weaponless in HD/SD scenario's shotguns would be the perfect answer every time LOL. 
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i'm not sure why i can't stop laughing at this post
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 2:44:56 AM EDT
Don't get me wrong .308 will kill the fuck out of you at 25 yards or less, but a 12ga slug will put a hole the size of Texas in you at 25yds or less, as will 12ga 00 buck.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 2:45:43 AM EDT
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Quoted:
i'm not sure why i can't stop laughing at this post
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Quoted:
LOL... charging animals...  god damn ENTIRE thread is predicated on SD/HD which implies humans, you know those mammals that carry guns too and do shit like proactively try not to get shot? 

I guess if people just charged weaponless in HD/SD scenario's shotguns would be the perfect answer every time LOL. 
i'm not sure why i can't stop laughing at this post
LOL I couldn't stop either at the image I got reading that. 

BUT to be fair he had a very salient point when he stated "We have loads of historical data for what happens when young healthy males with bad intentions get hit with many different cartridges. " which is exactly the reason that there doesn't need to BE any hunting references in order to make analogies... the physics and physiology of terminal ballistics is pretty well understood.  

Which is why with SD/HD it becomes all about how to deliver effects on target.  Fortunately that is ALSO a thing with lots of historical data. That historical data has showed that more rounds faster is better for shooting humans, and that while it doesn't always take many, sometimes it does.   

Especially since it's VERY easy to miss targets, even close when it comes to shooting at human beings, especially if they're putting up a fight in return.  
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 2:53:56 AM EDT
OP apparently did not realize he is in Arfcom GD.  None of the Arfcom GD Operators would ever be caught dead with a 12 gauge for anything.  In Arfcom GD 9metrosexual is ALWAYS the answer to any and every self defense question.  Next is the 5.56, then the .308, then 7.62, then .22lr.  Arfcom GD even prefers .38 Special as self defense round well before .45 ACP, which is rated by Arfcom GD experts near the bottom of the lethality spectrum, just above the 12 gauge.

According to Arfcom GD expert operators, the 12 gauge is completely worthless for human targets, even point blank, regardless of load.  However its 100% deadly to humans on the other side of walls, the next house over or even the next block due to overpenetration issues.  According to Arfcom GD experts the 12 gauge is barely sufficient for hollow boned birds, most of these experts prefer a 20 gauge or even a .410.

Ironically, while Arfcom GD expert operators completely dismiss the 12 gauge as a self defense weapon against humans, the 12 gauge is widely supported as super lethal to charging grizzly bears due to their very thick and tough hide and need for large caliber deep penetration.  Unfortunately, the ability of a 12 gauge slug to massively and deeply penetrate a bear does not translate to any lethality whatsoever to humans.

I thank the Lord daily for the wisdom of Arfcom GD.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 2:56:10 AM EDT
If you are shooting at 25 yards or so, better have good reason.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 3:11:09 AM EDT
Important question, is it single shot? Cause my ar10 has 20 rds mags.  I'd feel better with 20 vs say a sxs 12g.  But if I get one shot I want buckOO
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 3:22:04 AM EDT
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Quoted:
OP apparently did not realize he is in Arfcom GD.  None of the Arfcom GD Operators would ever be caught dead with a 12 gauge for anything.  In Arfcom GD 9metrosexual is ALWAYS the answer to any and every self defense question.  Next is the 5.56, then the .308, then 7.62, then .22lr.  Arfcom GD even prefers .38 Special as self defense round well before .45 ACP, which is rated by Arfcom GD experts near the bottom of the lethality spectrum, just above the 12 gauge.

According to Arfcom GD expert operators, the 12 gauge is completely worthless for human targets, even point blank, regardless of load.  However its 100% deadly to humans on the other side of walls, the next house over or even the next block due to overpenetration issues.  According to Arfcom GD experts the 12 gauge is barely sufficient for hollow boned birds, most of these experts prefer a 20 gauge or even a .410.

Ironically, while Arfcom GD expert operators completely dismiss the 12 gauge as a self defense weapon against humans, the 12 gauge is widely supported as super lethal to charging grizzly bears due to their very thick and tough hide and need for large caliber deep penetration.  Unfortunately, the ability of a 12 gauge slug to massively and deeply penetrate a bear does not translate to any lethality whatsoever to humans.

I thank the Lord daily for the wisdom of Arfcom GD.
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Spot on. The schizophrenic nature of GD is hilarious at times. It's like a gun show without the tables of generic tube socks, fat fucks riding cripple scooters, and the smell of B.O., burnt coffee, and Old Spice.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 3:33:02 AM EDT
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Quoted:
OP apparently did not realize he is in Arfcom GD.  None of the Arfcom GD Operators would ever be caught dead with a 12 gauge for anything.  In Arfcom GD 9metrosexual is ALWAYS the answer to any and every self defense question.  Next is the 5.56, then the .308, then 7.62, then .22lr.  Arfcom GD even prefers .38 Special as self defense round well before .45 ACP, which is rated by Arfcom GD experts near the bottom of the lethality spectrum, just above the 12 gauge.

According to Arfcom GD expert operators, the 12 gauge is completely worthless for human targets, even point blank, regardless of load.  However its 100% deadly to humans on the other side of walls, the next house over or even the next block due to overpenetration issues.  According to Arfcom GD experts the 12 gauge is barely sufficient for hollow boned birds, most of these experts prefer a 20 gauge or even a .410.

Ironically, while Arfcom GD expert operators completely dismiss the 12 gauge as a self defense weapon against humans, the 12 gauge is widely supported as super lethal to charging grizzly bears due to their very thick and tough hide and need for large caliber deep penetration.  Unfortunately, the ability of a 12 gauge slug to massively and deeply penetrate a bear does not translate to any lethality whatsoever to humans.

I thank the Lord daily for the wisdom of Arfcom GD.
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i think the same thing when i read 10mm threads lol

"oh shit bear country round"

"i wouldn't carry that round fuck that shit 9mm yol#o"
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 3:38:51 AM EDT
1 ounce 12 gauge slug fired into ballistic gel


SLOW MOTION 308 Winchester Federal 150gr Fusion JSP impacting ballistic gelatin
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 3:49:05 AM EDT
I think weapon system and training means more but this is GD so .308 because I can get a carbine in it.

But you know I'm probably wrong because grizzly bears or something something 'merica!
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 3:51:22 AM EDT
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I think weapon system and training means more but this is GD so .308 because I can get a carbine in it.

But you know I'm probably wrong because grizzly bears or something something 'merica!
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Single shots are the only metric that count, speed, training, experience... it means nothing! 
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 4:20:15 AM EDT
All three choices are more than adequate.  If they don't do the job at <25 yards, the fault isn't w/ the chambering.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 4:49:23 AM EDT
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Just gonna leave the pole up and watch it burn

I like to measure efficiency in joules and penetration
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5.56mm beats both, hands down.

Take the range past 200m and I will give it to the .308.

Shotguns only win vs birds.
Link Posted: 3/25/2017 4:59:00 AM EDT
FBI stats have 12 gauge as one of the highest 1-shot kill percentages of any caliber firearm.

Must be some reason the USMC went looking for a semi-auto shotgun (and why we see pics of them using the Benelli M4 for entry.

~3000 ft-lbs for 12 gauge slugs vs 2000 ft-lbs for .308.

Wouldn't want to get shot with either, but I don't think unarmored humans tend to remain standing/alive after a close range COM hit from a 12 gauge.


Max
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