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Posted: 3/25/2017 5:07:51 AM EDT
[#1]
I have failed every poll today...until now.
42% FTMFW! 
Edit: pg 2 
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Posted: 3/25/2017 5:09:01 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
FBI stats have 12 gauge as one of the highest 1-shot kill percentages of any caliber firearm. Quote HistoryQuoted:
FBI stats have 12 gauge as one of the highest 1-shot kill percentages of any caliber firearm. Quoted:
Must be some reason the USMC went looking for a semi-auto shotgun (and why we see pics of them using the Benelli M4 for entry. ~3000 ft-lbs for 12 gauge slugs vs 2000 ft-lbs for .308. Wouldn't want to get shot with either, but I don't think unarmored humans tend to remain standing/alive after a close range COM hit from a 12 gauge. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 5:27:09 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cite? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
FBI stats have 12 gauge as one of the highest 1-shot kill percentages of any caliber firearm. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 5:30:12 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did I call it, or did I call it? LOL Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
FBI stats have 12 gauge as one of the highest 1-shot kill percentages of any caliber firearm. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 5:50:00 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also within 25yards I would stick with 12ga and slugs for one or two targets. For more than that, I'd go semi-auto 308. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 5:54:32 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Just gonna leave the pole up and watch it burn I like to measure efficiency in joules and penetration Would have said 308 a few weeks ago, but then I got a few boxes of these. 
Maybe the last round on Earth you wanna get hit with. Crazy eastern European bastards
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Posted: 3/25/2017 8:09:53 AM EDT
[#7]
Well, I don't have a .308 loaded and in the house, but I do have two 12 ga. shotguns loaded with 00 buckshot in the house.
So, that answers that question. Then again, what I grab when I get up to go to the door (day or night) to answer it is a CZ 9MM or CZ .40 S&W, depending on where I'm at in the house when the door bell rings. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 8:15:27 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you are shooting at 25 yards or so, better have good reason. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 8:16:48 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.308. Not as good as 5.56 but still better than 12 ga for lot of the same reasons ,mostly centered around the weapon not as much as the caliber. Also, LOL@ all the already made analogies to hunting, and all of the ones to follow, since people are not animals and don't react the same. LOL@ all the people who will talk about how great a shotgun is because of math, but don't actually train or HD type stuff with them to know their strengths and weaknesses. Which of course leads them to not being able to articulate anything of not and rely on shitty analogies and arguments based around narrow world views. (and butthurt) Also, can't wait to see the normal tryhads who will cry about people being "keyboard commando's".  There is only one gauge and it is a 12. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 8:24:34 AM EDT
[#10]
For this contrived scenario I'd choose 12 ga. Slugs.
For real world I'll pick a semiauto detachable magazine fed .308 rifle. The limitations of shotguns (ergos, recoil, magazine capacity) aren't the rounds at close range that's thier strong suit. shotguns are specialized tools that lack utility. Especially when compared to a fighting rifle. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 8:24:57 AM EDT
[#11]
Post count from participating in yet another GD shotgun thread.
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Posted: 3/25/2017 9:15:36 AM EDT
[#12]
Picked 308 for a 50% chance of penetration instead of 12g 1% chance.
If I'm raiding a house, I'm wearing armor, so I presume an invader would do the same. 50/50 they may have plates. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 12:53:26 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
FBI stats have 12 gauge as one of the highest 1-shot kill percentages of any caliber firearm. Must be some reason the USMC went looking for a semi-auto shotgun (and why we see pics of them using the Benelli M4 for entry. ~3000 ft-lbs for 12 gauge slugs vs 2000 ft-lbs for .308. Wouldn't want to get shot with either, but I don't think unarmored humans tend to remain standing/alive after a close range COM hit from a 12 gauge. Max |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 1:12:53 PM EDT
[#14]
Depends on the gun, ammo and setting.
Generally, under 25 yards is where the shotgun shines more than anything else. A full pattern of 00 will seriously fuck just about everything in this world up. And it'll do it in a very quick, violent manner. And yes, you can follow up with shots VERY quickly, even with a pump gun. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 1:24:09 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.308. Not as good as 5.56 but still better than 12 ga for lot of the same reasons ,mostly centered around the weapon not as much as the caliber. Also, LOL@ all the already made analogies to hunting, and all of the ones to follow, since people are not animals and don't react the same. LOL@ all the people who will talk about how great a shotgun is because of math, but don't actually train or HD type stuff with them to know their strengths and weaknesses. Which of course leads them to not being able to articulate anything of not and rely on shitty analogies and arguments based around narrow world views. (and butthurt) Also, can't wait to see the normal tryhads who will cry about people being "keyboard commando's". 
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Posted: 3/25/2017 1:39:42 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Im also trying to wrap my brain around a 25 yard self defense situation........ Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If you are shooting at 25 yards or so, better have good reason. Are you (or a third party) in reasonable fear of serious bodily injury or are you not? |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 1:59:39 PM EDT
[#17]
HD scenario makes me want to prefer the 00 buck out of the choices.
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Posted: 3/25/2017 2:05:06 PM EDT
[#18]
At that range, slug or buck i a DRT proposition. .308 is going to overpenetrate and sail clean through
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Posted: 3/25/2017 2:05:08 PM EDT
[#19]
meh. at the distance you can point shoot with either option., but the rifle would be more precise if you needed to hit a small target. Barrier penetration goes to the rifle unless you have specialty loads, but then you would have fewer rounds in the shotgun.
I'd go with the rifle. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 2:07:32 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
FBI stats have 12 gauge as one of the highest 1-shot kill percentages of any caliber firearm. Must be some reason the USMC went looking for a semi-auto shotgun (and why we see pics of them using the Benelli M4 for entry. ~3000 ft-lbs for 12 gauge slugs vs 2000 ft-lbs for .308. Wouldn't want to get shot with either, but I don't think unarmored humans tend to remain standing/alive after a close range COM hit from a 12 gauge. Max |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 2:08:56 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cite? And that highlighted word is why a shotgun is a poor choice compared to a carbine. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 2:15:01 PM EDT
[#22]
12ga with an expanding slug or a 125-140gr .308 bullet will leave a large hole.
Larger holes causes faster blood loss. Faster blood loss causes quicker death. .308 fragments nicely at higher velocity, 12ga slugs mushroom nicely under 25 yards too. While 5.56 fragments nicely it just does not leave as large as an abcess as 12ga and .308 at or under 25 yards. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 2:16:41 PM EDT
[#23]
If you like your carbine, you can keep your carbine!
Does anyone else remember that story about the asian guy who fought off an entry team with a shotgun when they raided the wrong place? Those were "trained professionals" wearing body armor, I think it is safe to say he would have fared much better in a more normal self defense scenario against robbers or the like wearing hoodies instead of armored plates 
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Posted: 3/25/2017 2:20:57 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you are shooting at 25 yards or so, better have good reason. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 2:21:32 PM EDT
[#25]
Slug would fuck your shit up. At 5-10 yds I might take buck, at 75+ id go 308.
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Posted: 3/25/2017 2:22:57 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
At that range, slug or buck i a DRT proposition. .308 is going to overpenetrate and sail clean through 12ga slugs fragment/flatten out and physically remove more tissue than any 5.56 load. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 2:23:01 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Im also trying to wrap my brain around a 25 yard self defense situation........ Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If you are shooting at 25 yards or so, better have good reason. Its one of the least likely shooting scenarios I could think of in my house, but it could happen. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 2:23:28 PM EDT
[#28]
Glock 19
. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 2:25:52 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe I'm being obtuse, but I don't see how range has anything to do with it. Are you (or a third party) in reasonable fear of serious bodily injury or are you not? |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 2:43:24 PM EDT
[#30]
I pick slug
the buckshot will have spread to approx 25" in diameter, so your chance of a hit is increased but your chance of a lot of hits is decreased. Shot spreads about 1 inch per yard distance from muzzle with a cylinder bore. a turkey choke and some flight control shrinks that number down considerably. A slug is 437gn traveling faster than the speed of sound. That will pack a hell of a punch. If you're wearing armor it will still smash some shit, even if it doesn't penetrate. knock your ass down and break a whole bunch of stuff in the process, probably knock you out, too. Shotguns are not hard to shoot quickly or accurately. they are not hard to place rounds on target, and they are cheap enough that almost everybody can afford one. I would take any SxS, O/U, pump, or reliable semi over a pistol if I knew I was going to be in a fight. I would prefer a rifle and armor and buddies, but the reason we carry handguns is because they are EASY to carry. they kinda suck for fight stoppers. Shotguns don't (in close) and rifles don't suck. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 3:47:31 PM EDT
[#31]
A 308 would have great penetration that could turn much cover into concealment. A shotgun slug will take care of just about anything inside of 25 yards. There is much to be said for a load of buckshot that delivers 9-12 38 caliber balls at once. It would be similar to being hit instantly with 9 rounds out of a Makarov. That gives much greater liklihood that one of those balls will hit something vital like the spinal column, heart, liver, lung, major artery, or break a bone. Hence my vote for buckshot.
With all that said, I would not feel undergunned with either a 308, shotgun slug, or buckshot. Any one of the three will do a journeyman job of taking care of business. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 3:47:35 PM EDT
[#32]
While I wouldn't feel unarmed with either, I would pick the.308 every time.
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Posted: 3/25/2017 4:10:32 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote History[b]Quoted:. If you're wearing armor it will still smash some shit, even if it doesn't penetrate. knock your ass down and break a whole bunch of stuff in the process, probably knock you out, too. Shotguns are not hard to shoot quickly or accurately. they are not hard to place rounds on target, and they are cheap enough that almost everybody can afford one. 
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Posted: 3/25/2017 4:11:53 PM EDT
[#34]
So wrong. Desperately wrong. Fake wrong.
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Posted: 3/25/2017 4:38:00 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@daa9mm you should totally post up your training and experience so everyone can know how authoritative you are when it comes to these threads. Neither do most others that have hit flesh and killed with 00 buck AND a centerfire rifle on different creatures, two legged or 4 legged. We should take your opinion as gospel that anyone with a shotgun and 00 buckshot are under armed against the Scarface movie type assault that killed Al Pacino because we all face that type home invasion and we all need to be prepared for it. 
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Posted: 3/25/2017 4:47:49 PM EDT
[#36]
This poll (not fucking pole, OP) is dumb from the start. If you are talking about over penetration and/or hitting other stuff in your backdrop, all of your weapons are not appropriate.
1. Most LE Agencies have gone to the .223 for this very reason. Less over penetration, you know exactly where your ronds are going. 2. Shotgun. You need to account for every projectile leaving the weapon. So 00 Buck, you better hit center mass with all 8 .32 caliber pellets. Don't want one to go past your target, and hit a bystander. 3. .308 You want to shoot through the target, the wall behind it, and the school behind that? Go for it. We keep .308 available as containment weapons, when .223 will not get the job done. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 4:55:26 PM EDT
[#37]
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Posted: 3/25/2017 5:01:06 PM EDT
[#38]
Between the .308 and 12GA, I pick 12 with 00 buck. For me the longest shot I would have to make would be maybe 15 yards in a HD situation, so there wouldn't be much spread to the buckshot. With the close neighbors I have, the .308 would be too much of an over penetration issue, along with the 12GA slug.
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Posted: 3/25/2017 5:10:31 PM EDT
[#39]
Rifle > shotgun.
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Posted: 3/25/2017 5:25:45 PM EDT
[#40]
I vote buckshot
if your assailant has body armor you just shoot their legs off, or lower abdomen, neck, whatever. much easier hits. I've used it on deer. Messy but very effective. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 5:31:33 PM EDT
[#41]
12 gauge 3 inch slug will put a stop to anything on this continent. Bear guards don't carry .308 rifles up north. They carry 12 Gauges.
Anyone that thinks otherwise never shot a 12 gauge at anything. They will Fuck up your health records. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 5:32:48 PM EDT
[#42]
12 gauge wins at all distances
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Posted: 3/25/2017 5:40:27 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also, LOL@ all the already made analogies to hunting, and all of the ones to follow, since people are not animals.
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Posted: 3/25/2017 5:44:13 PM EDT
[#44]
Candy cane magazine of Dragon's Breath and Flechette rounds of course!
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Posted: 3/25/2017 6:05:39 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
God Damn you , Common Core. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Also, LOL@ all the already made analogies to hunting, and all of the ones to follow, since people are not animals. How do you reconcile defending ones self against an animal with a asymmetrical brain which shows abstract thought and an ability vs an animal with a symmetrical brain that does not? Is there no difference to you defending yourself from what Aristotle called the rational animal, and other animals? If humans are simply animals with no other distinction, than it would follow that the tactics to defend yourself from a bear attack would be the same as from group of home invaders. Where's your common core now. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 6:06:37 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't need to impress others with my vast expanse of firearms knowledge like you do for everyone to know that a 12 ga with 9 .33" caliber balls in a 10" pattern is far more lethal in a center mass hit than a lung pass through with a single .308" projectile. Neither do most others that have hit flesh and killed with 00 buck AND a centerfire rifle on different creatures, two legged or 4 legged. We should take your opinion as gospel that anyone with a shotgun and 00 buckshot are under armed against the Scarface movie type assault that killed Al Pacino because we all face that type home invasion and we all need to be prepared for it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
@daa9mm you should totally post up your training and experience so everyone can know how authoritative you are when it comes to these threads. Neither do most others that have hit flesh and killed with 00 buck AND a centerfire rifle on different creatures, two legged or 4 legged. We should take your opinion as gospel that anyone with a shotgun and 00 buckshot are under armed against the Scarface movie type assault that killed Al Pacino because we all face that type home invasion and we all need to be prepared for it. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 6:21:03 PM EDT
[#47]
Whomever is the fastest and most accurate wins. Then caliber doesn't matter either.
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Posted: 3/25/2017 6:22:29 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryI would like to see a rifle do that. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 6:27:17 PM EDT
[#49]
That ain't no .308 |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 6:29:40 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For this contrived scenario I'd choose 12 ga. Slugs. For real world I'll pick a semiauto detachable magazine fed .308 rifle. The limitations of shotguns (ergos, recoil, magazine capacity) aren't the rounds at close range that's thier strong suit. shotguns are specialized tools that lack utility. Especially when compared to a fighting rifle. His wording between thread title and body would lead somebody to think its option 2. In which case i'd rather get 1 shot off with 12ga 00 buck or a 12ga slug. That being said i'd rather bring a semi auto mag fed 308 to a gunfight all day every day without a second guess. |
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