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Posted: 8/23/2004 4:07:26 AM EST
Interesting. garandman made this reference in another thread. He apparently believes that all Democrats are Marxists?

Interesting.

Is this the prevailing thought on AR15.com?

If so, how did you come to the conclusion that Democrat = Marxist?

And no, you can't rant about how they want to take our guns away.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:10:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By BenDover:
Interesting. garandman made this reference in another thread. He apparently believes that all Democrats are Marxists?

Interesting.

Is this the prevailing thought on AR15.com?

If so, how did you come to the conclusion that Democrat = Marxist?

And no, you can't rant about how they want to take our guns away.



"From each according to their ability to each according to their need"

Democrats talk about rich people having money, but they want to take that money and use it to pay for healthcare for the poor
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:16:37 AM EST
First, thanx for not trolling my post name with intentional mispelling. I knew you could do it.

Second, generally speaking, elements of the Republican Party has become the Democrat Party of thirty years ago, and elements of the Democrat Party have become Marxist.

Not all Dems are Marxists. But if you look at their politics and policies, many are nothing more than closet Marxists.


Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:16:54 AM EST
Not all of them are Communists, but certainly 75 percent of them are. Envy is the classic Marxist emotion.

GunLvr
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:17:15 AM EST
Democrat = Kruschev was right! (we will bury you)


"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism"
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:18:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:
First, thanx for not trolling my post name with intentional mispelling. I knew you could do it.

Second, generally speaking, elements of the Republican Party has become the Democrat Party of thirty years ago, and elements of the Democrat Party have become Marxist.

Not all Dems are Marxists. But if you look at their politics and policies, many are nothing more than closet Marxists.





No problem grandmaboy... that's what you get when you do it to me first....

Sincerely,

TrollDover
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:19:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By osprey21:
Democrat = Kruschev was right! (we will bury you)


"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism"



Wasn't it a democrat who Nikita squared off with during the Cuban missle crisis though?
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:20:22 AM EST
"We are going to take things away from you for the common good." Hilliary Clinton.


(the quote may not be verbatim but she did say it)
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:20:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By BenDover:

And no, you can't rant about how they want to take our guns away.



YOu cannot legitimately ask a question and then RULE OUT an answer.




Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:23:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By BenDover:

Originally Posted By osprey21:
Democrat = Kruschev was right! (we will bury you)


"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism"



Wasn't it a democrat who Nikita squared off with during the Cuban missle crisis though?



And it was also a democrat who cut taxes to SPUR economic growth.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:23:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By BenDover:
No problem grandmaboy... that's what you get when you do it to me first....

Sincerely,

TrollDover



I did it once.

You do it like a four year old, not knowing WHEN to let it go.

Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:25:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
"We are going to take things away from you for the common good." Hilliary Clinton.


(the quote may not be verbatim but she did say it)



Yep, I heard her say it myself. She's thinking she's the queen bee and she doles out what ever she want's to us slaves. Sounds like every "true" Democrat I have met in the last 10 years.


And yes, they are marxist.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:25:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:

Originally Posted By BenDover:
[Wasn't it a democrat who Nikita squared off with during the Cuban missle crisis though?



And it was also a democrat who cut taxes to SPUR economic growth.



The Democrat of thirty years ago is NOT the Democrat of today.

BenD -

Do you want to discuss today, or thity years ago? Make up your mind.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:28:18 AM EST
The GOP of today is very different too. It's definately NOT the Republican Party of Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, or Ronald Reagan even.

The harder left the left goes, the harder right the right goes, and I am sitting here in the middle wishing like hell I had a centerist third party choice.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:29:49 AM EST
Life just isn't fair, according to Democrats. Some people have it better than others. And it is up to Dems to equallize things, their calling in life.

Unfortunately, this is done more often by hamstringing the haves, than by actually helping the have nots.

Yes, Democrats ARE Marxists, and the current crop of Democratic "leadership" is scarey as hell.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:30:02 AM EST
When you walk like a Marxist, talk like a Marxist and act like a Marxist, I'd say that makes you a Marxist! So yes, I do feel that's what the democratic party is moving toward.

That's not always been the case. In fact, I would say much of it has came about over the past 10-15 years as the party moved from primarily the middle to the left. Heck, at one point in time we had 'Southern Democrats' who embodied much of what conservative Republicans do today. But those with strong values are slowly moving away from their roots and toward the radical leftist element.

But prior to now, the biggest collection of them were found among the hippies and radical leftists during the Vietnam era. I suppose it is their remnants and offspring that are causing all the problems today.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:32:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 4:33:15 AM EST by The_Macallan]

Originally Posted By BenDover:
The GOP of today is very different too. It's definately NOT the Republican Party of Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, or Ronald Reagan even.

The harder left the left goes, the harder right the right goes, and I am sitting here in the middle wishing like hell I had a centerist third party choice.

You really think the Republican Party is MORE rightwing now than twenty years ago????

The Dems of today have adopted nearly every principle of Marxism and the Reps of today are nearly exactly were the Dems were forty years ago.

Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:33:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 4:36:43 AM EST by the]

Originally Posted By BenDover:
Interesting. garandman made this reference in another thread. He apparently believes that all Democrats are Marxists?

Interesting.

Is this the prevailing thought on AR15.com?

If so, how did you come to the conclusion that Democrat = Marxist?

And no, you can't rant about how they want to take our guns away.



The Democrat ideal (today) is wealth redistribution to create a "better" society. This is undeniable. Virtually all Democrat economic ideas are based in Marxism, that all societal problems can be addressed by equalizing fortunes through force of government. Some republicans believe this as well. In recent years, the Democrat party has moved further left, and taken the Republican party leftward as well.

And I came to the conclusion that the Democrat Party was the vehicle for Marxism because I was once a Marxist.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:34:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By BenDover:


The harder left the left goes, the harder right the right goes, and I am sitting here in the middle wishing like hell I had a centerist third party choice.




There are other countries you can choose to live in.

Chances are they have internet access so you can continue to whine about Bush.

Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:36:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

The Dems of today have adopted nearly every principle of Marxism and the Reps of today are nearly exactly were the Dems were forty years ago.




+1

Course, BenD REFUSES to beleive this obvous truth,as it doesn't fit his agenda of bashing anyone and anything that represents Biblical Christianity.

Making onewonder if he thinks a Christian is allowed any say in gov't or political office.

Typical "tolerance crowd" tripe.

Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:38:18 AM EST
"In order to form the perfect Socialist State we must first dis-arm our enemy's."Sara Brady.


John the flipper Kerry's photo hangs in the People's Revolutionary Museum in Hanoi,as a HERO...and he is running for President of the US and IS endorsed by every communist movement on the globe.


Billy bobb klinton's selling of critical defense secrets and technology to Red China in exchange for suitcases of money delivered to the Oval office by "Diplomats" from Red China.


Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:40:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

The Dems of today have adopted nearly every principle of Marxism and the Reps of today are nearly exactly were the Dems were forty years ago.




Yup.

The "republicans are moving right" riff is quite a nice bit of propaganda. So accepted, yet so demonstrably false. Were it only true.

Of course when you're cruising leftward at 500mph, someone else moving only 50mph in the same direction does appear to be moving right.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:42:36 AM EST
Absolutely...

but BenDover I have to disagree with your thought that the Republican party is going hard right. On some things yes, for instance gay marriage, but in the majority of things including the profligate spending that has been happening the last four years I believe that the Republicans are getting away from their roots.

The Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Greens, Commies or any other group do not and can not represent any person's total view. That is why the thought of political parties in general suck, I am an individual and I vote for individuals, not party tags.


96Ag
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:43:50 AM EST
SHHHH, Don't say it too loud or you will be accused of being part of the
"VAST RIGHT WING CONSPIRICY"
This has become the Dems dirty little secret, They have become Hard core Marxist Lenninist.

Remember what comrade Lennin said.
Democracy cannot work, Once the people begin to understand that they can vote themselves money from the treasury it is over!!
& What are the Dems offering!!!
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:45:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
"We are going to take things away from you for the common good." Hilliary Clinton.



+1 ya beat me to it
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:53:15 AM EST
Too bad BenD.

Pretty much everyone here agrees with my assessment.

No opportunity to bash me or Christianity.

What we can expect to see next is you bash the ENTIRE SITE as being "too Christian."

Whatever than means.

Might take a little while, but it will happen


Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:54:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 5:01:58 AM EST by motown_steve]
I don't believe that the Democrats are truly Marxist. I believe that they are actually Aristocratic rather than marxist. The keadership of the Democrat party are some of the richest people in the world! The Democrats show a "let them eat cake mentality", in order to keep the rabble in line.

The Welfare system is one of the greatest examples of this! The current welfare system was created by Johnson, a democrat. This is a system where poor people are paid by the government to not work, not achieve, and not grow. The result: crime ridden ghettos filled with people who are rabidly loyal to the Democrats. For the Democrats, this helps to solidify their power and removes any threat of competition for their wealth.

Imagine the effect that giving out welfare checks AND free health care will have! You could have all the benefits of having a job, without having to work! All you need to do is sit back and be cared for by the ultra rich power elite and vote Democrat! However, you will not be able to step out of line! In order to keep you safe you will not be allowed to own weapons. Any attempts to step out of line will bet suppressed by the government para-military police arganizations.

As you know, this was how Clinton operated.


BTW...BenDover, why the pro-democrat thread? I thought you said in the "Bush drove girlfriend to abortion" thread, you stated you were a member of the Republican party. What gives??
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:58:54 AM EST
If one doesn't believe that there's been a shift to the left by the Democrats, one needs his head examined.

How much more left can you get and not be Marxist?

A. Socialized health care
B. Gun Registration and gun bans.
C. Taxing the "rich" at higher percentage rates than those less wealthy.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:02:55 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:12:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I don't believe that the Democrats are truly Marxist. I believe that they are actually Aristocratic rather than marxist. The keadership of the Democrat party are some of the richest people in the world! The Democrats show a "let them eat cake mentality", in order to keep the rabble in line.

The Welfare system is one of the greatest examples of this! The current welfare system was created by Johnson, a democrat. This is a system where poor people are paid by the government to not work, not achieve, and not grow. The result: crime ridden ghettos filled with people who are rabidly loyal to the Democrats. For the Democrats, this helps to solidify their power and removes any threat of competition for their wealth.

Imagine the effect that giving out welfare checks AND free health care will have! You could have all the benefits of having a job, without having to work! All you need to do is sit back and be cared for by the ultra rich power elite and vote Democrat! However, you will not be able to step out of line! In order to keep you safe you will not be allowed to own weapons. Any attempts to step out of line will bet suppressed by the government para-military police arganizations.

As you know, this was how Clinton operated.


BTW...BenDover, why the pro-democrat thread? I thought you said in the "Bush drove girlfriend to abortion" thread, you stated you were a member of the Republican party. What gives??



This isn't a pro-democrat thread so much as it is a thread to determin what the prevailing attitude here is regarding the comparison of all Democrats being Marxists (as garandbum affirmatively stated in another topic).
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:15:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By BenDover:

This isn't a pro-democrat thread so much as it is a thread to determin what the prevailing attitude here is regarding the comparison of all Democrats being Marxists (as garandbum affirmatively stated in another topic).



And I've been vindicated.

Next topic.

Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:17:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 5:17:47 AM EST by chuckhammer]
SOME of the D party are certainly dedicated Marxists.

The late Paul Wellstone comes to mind.

These people must be faught tooth-and-nail in order to keep our country as free as can be.

Their number is growing every year, it seems.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:29:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By BenDover:
Interesting. garandman made this reference in another thread. He apparently believes that all Democrats are Marxists?

Interesting.

Is this the prevailing thought on AR15.com?

If so, how did you come to the conclusion that Democrat = Marxist?

And no, you can't rant about how they want to take our guns away.



1) Social(ist) Security
a) Make 10,000 year- get 500 month SocSec
b) Make 40,000 year- get 750 month SocSec

=Redistribution of wealth= Marxist/Socialist

2) Taxes
a) Make less than 20,000 year with 4 dependents pay ZERO Fed inc. tax
PLUS get 2500 back
b) Make 100,00 year tax pay 25,000 Fed inc tax
c) Top 20% income pay 80% of all Federal taxes

=Redistibution of wealth= Marxist/Socialist

3) Open Borders
1) Bring in Illegals to take away good middleclass-paying jobs
2) Put Illegals on Social Security
3) Put Americans out on the street

=Redistribution of wealth= Marxist/Socialist

4)Take away guns
"Socialism cannot thrive in the United States as long as we have an ARMED middle class"-Sarah Brady (Handgun Control Incorporated-Gungrabbers et al)

Take away the PEOPLE'S ABILITY to change goverment from Marxist/Socialist BACK to Capitalist Judeao-Christian Republic.

NEED I SAY MORE!


Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:30:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:
First, thanx for not trolling my post name with intentional mispelling. I knew you could do it.

Second, generally speaking, elements of the Republican Party has become the Democrat Party of thirty years ago, and elements of the Democrat Party have become Marxist.

Not all Dems are Marxists. But if you look at their politics and policies, many are nothing more than closet Marxists.






That sums it up pretty good right there.


SGtar15
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:42:01 AM EST

You go first, define what you think a Marxist is. Try and leave the guns out when you discuss the Revolution.

Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:45:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By BenDover:
Interesting. garandman made this reference in another thread. He apparently believes that all Democrats are Marxists?

Interesting.

Is this the prevailing thought on AR15.com?

If so, how did you come to the conclusion that Democrat = Marxist?

And no, you can't rant about how they want to take our guns away.



I call them Socialists.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:54:44 AM EST
I have to say, I still disagree with the statement that the Democrats are Marxist.

Under Marxism, everyone would be equal, everyone would have as much as they need, and everyone would give what they have. Society would truly be run by the people. The wealth would be distributed EVENLY to ensure that there were no poor. Since everyone would get an equal slice of the pie, there would be no rich, to seize power and force their will on the poor and middle class.

This is where the Democrats stray from Marxism! Look at the most powerful people on the left:

- John Kerry - Came from a rich Family, and then married a Billionaire
- Mama Heinz - Big Ketchup, nuff said
- Ted Kennedy - Filthy rich from the Kennedy fortune, and probably still hasn't even spent the interest!
- George Soros - Multi-Billionaire
- John Edwards - Multi-Millionaire
- Bill Clinton - politician who wrote a book and became a Multi-Millionaire
- Hillary Clinton - politician who also wrote a book and also became Multi-Millionaire

And the list goes on and on. Don't let their social welfare programs fool you, the Democrats are not interested in giving everyone an equal piece of the pie. Don't let their taxation fool you, they can afford it because it buys them power, and they will get most of it back anyways! The Democrats are NOT Marxists. They are elitests who want to keep the rabble quiet while keeping the money and the power in the hands of a select few.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:58:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Under Marxism, everyone would be equal, everyone would have as much as they need, and everyone would give what they have. Society would truly be run by the people. The wealth would be distributed EVENLY to ensure that there were no poor. Since everyone would get an equal slice of the pie, there would be no rich, to seize power and force their will on the poor and middle class.


And the list goes on and on. Don't let their social welfare programs fool you, the Democrats are not interested in giving everyone an equal piece of the pie. Don't let their taxation fool you, they can afford it because it buys them power, and they will get most of it back anyways!

The Democrats are NOT Marxists. They are elitests who want to keep the rabble quiet while keeping the money and the power in the hands of a select few.




THere is a difference between theoretical marxism, and how it actually works out in practice.

Per the writings of Karl Marx, Marxism exists NOWHERE in the world. Due to the deviant nature of man, it cannot work.

But in practice, Marxism is rampant. The Dems are practical, tho not theoretical, Marxists.

Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:59:43 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 6:03:41 AM EST
Since this thread has run it's course, I have a question. Where did this quote come from?


"Socialism cannot thrive in the United States as long as we have an ARMED middle class"-Sarah Brady (Handgun Control Incorporated-Gungrabbers et al)


96­Ag
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 6:06:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 6:09:51 AM EST by DoubleFeed]
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 6:11:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 6:14:47 AM EST by Zhukov]
Here is a long diatribe I wrote a few months ago about the Green party. There's some comments about Dems in there as well, as they pretty much share the same philosophy. The end result is the same - Marxism of some kind or another:

As elections draw nearer, I thought I would take a few moments of your time
to impress on you the danger of voting for the most dangerous of political
parties in this country today. It is my opinion, but I think you might just
realize the danger yourself after you read this summary.

That party is the GREEN PARTY USA, fronted by Ralph Nader.

Surprised? Thought they're only for a cleaner environment? You might be
surprised. The following quotes are directly from their website. The
direct link to their platform is http://www.greenparty.org/Platform.html
so you can read it yourself if you would like.

There has been some change to the platform from the 2000 election campaign,
but most of their worst/most dangerous ideas are still there. I will cover
the highlights from each topic and let you be the judge:


An Economic Bill of Rights
--------------------------
* Jobs for All: A guaranteed right to job. Full employment through community-based public
works and community service jobs programs, federally financed and community controlled.
* Living Wages: A family-supporting minimum wage. Start at $12.50 per hour in 2000 and
index to the cost of living.
* 30-Hour Work Week: A 6-hour day with no cut in pay for the bottom 80% of the pay scale.
* Universal Health Care: A single-payer National Health Program to provide free medical
and dental care for all, with freedom of choice for consumers among both conventional
and alternative health care providers, federally financed and controlled by democratically
elected local boards.
* Free Child Care: Available voluntarily and free for all who need it, modeled after
Head Start, federally financed, and community controlled.
* Lifelong Public Education: Free, quality public education from pre-school through graduate
school at public institutions.



You might wonder who pays for all of this socialist goodness. Your answers will
come later. I especially enjoyed he lifelong public education freebie. There's
an incentive to get you working.



Grassroots Democracy
--------------------
* Community Assemblies: Ground political representation in a foundation of
participatory, direct democracy: a Community Assembly in every neighborhood,
open to all of its residents, acting as a grassroots legislative body, with
its own budget for local administration, and the power (in concert with other
Citizens Assemblies who share a representative) to monitor, instruct, and recall
representatives elected to municipal, state, and federal office.
* A Proportional, Single-Chamber US Congress: Abolish the disproportional,
aristocratic US Senate. Create a single-chamber US Congress, elected by a
system of mixed-member proportional representation that combines district
representatives elected by preference voting and party representatives seated
in proportion to each party's vote.



Community assemblies? I believe that based on their description, the Russian word
is more appropriate. What is that word? SOVIET. We'll need those after we throw
the Constitution out the window after abolishing the aristocratic Senate. They
called it "Imperialist" in their last platform.


Ecological Conversion
---------------------
* Ecological Production: Set goals and timetables to phase out and ban the
production and release of synthetic chemicals and to convert all production
to materials that are bio-degradable, bio-inert, or confined to closed-loop
industrial cycles. Use federal investments, purchasing, mandates, and incentives to: ...
o Phase out most chlorinated and other synthetic petrochemicals and phase
in natural, biodegradable substitutes.
o Phase out synthetic fertilizers and pesticides and phase in organic agriculture.
o Shut down waste incinerators, phase out landfills, and phase in full recycling.
o Require manufacturers to be responsible for the whole life cycle of their
products by taking back used packaging and products for re-manufacturing, reuse,
or recycling.
o Legalize industrial hemp as an ecological source for wood pulp, paper, cloth,
lubricants, fibers, and many other products.
* Renewable Energy: Invest non-renewable energy sources in the creation of self-reproducing,
renewable energy systems. Use federal investments, purchasing, mandates, and incentives to:
o Shut down nuclear power plants.
o Phase out fossil fuels and phase in clean renewable energy sources.
o Reduce auto-based transportation and expand pedestrian, bicycle, and rail transportation.
* Environmental Justice: Strengthen and enforce laws that prevent toxic industries,
toxic dumps and air pollution from targeting ethnic minority communities.
* A Just Transition: A Superfund for Workers to guarantee full income and benefits for
all workers displaced by ecological conversion until they find new jobs with comparable
income and benefits.



Another thing that really frightens me. The US probably has the world's richest supply
of foodstuffs in the entire world. WE FEED THE WORLD. Granted, we may use synthetic
fertilizers and the like, but we aren't hungry. What do you think would happen to our
foodsupply if these guys ran the country? Be very, VERY frightened.


Economic Democracy
------------------
* Periodic Review of Corporate Charters: A public corporate charter review process for each
corporation above $20 million in assets every 20 years to see if it is serving the
public interest according to social and ecological as well as financial criteria.
* Strengthen Anti-Trust Enforcement: Require breakup of any firm with more than 10%
market share unless it makes a compelling case every five years in a public regulatory
proceeding that it serves the public interest to keep the firm intact.
* Democratic Production: Establish the right of citizens to vote on the expansion or
phasing out of products and industries, especially in areas of dangerous or toxic production.
* Workplace Democracy: Establish the right of workers at every enterprise over 10 employees
to elect supervisors and managers and to determine how to organize work.
* Democratic Conversion of Big Business: Mandatory break-up and conversion to democratic worker,
consumer, and/or public ownership on a human scale of the largest 500 US industrial and
commercial corporations that account for about 10% of employees, 50% of profits, 70% of
sales, and 90% of manufacturing assets.
* Democratic Conversion of Small and Medium Business: Financial and technical incentives
and assistance for voluntary conversion of the 22.5 million small and medium non-farm
businesses in the US to worker or consumer cooperatives or democratic public enterprises.
Mandate that workers and the community have the first option to buy on preferential
terms in cases of plant closures, the sale or merger of significant assets, or the
revocation of corporate charters.
* Democratic Banking: Mandatory conversion of the 200 largest banks with 80% of all bank
assets into democratic publicly-owned community banks. Financial and technical incentives
and assistance for voluntary conversion of other privately-owned banks into publicly-owned
community banks or consumer-owned credit unions.



Here we have it then. They may try to hide under the guise of protecting the environment, but
here they spell out for you what they really are: COMMUNISTS. Let's summarize their ideas:
* Close down businesses if they aren't serving the public interest (who decides?)
* Break up any business with a 10% market share.
* Mandatory breakup of the largest 500 companies and reorganize them into worker cooperatives.
* Encourage the same breakup of small to medium businesses.
* Break up the largest 200 banks into democratic (what does that mean?) publicly-owned
community banks

These policies, if implemented, would bring financial ruin on the entire country. The
reasons big businesses are successful is due to their efficiency. As consumers, we
have an economic vote already. They're proposing mandatory shutdowns/breakups of those
in the business world who have figured out how to do it right.



Progressive and Ecological Taxes
--------------------------------
* Maximum Income: Build into the progressive income tax a 100% tax on all income over
ten times the minimum wage.
* Wealth Tax: Enact a steeply progressive tax on net wealth over $2.5 million
(the top 5% of households).
* Inheritance Tax: Replace the loophole-ridden estate tax with a no-loopholes, progressive
inheritance tax on inheritances over $1 million.
* Stock and Bond Transfer Tax: Encourage a shift from speculative to productive investments
through a federal stock and bond transfer tax on all securities transactions.
* Currency Speculation Tax: An internationally uniform tax on currency conversion to
discourage speculation. Revenues from the currency speculation tax should be channeled
through international agencies into ecologically sustainable, democratically controlled
development in poor countries.
* Advertising Tax: A tax on advertising to fund a decentralized, pluralistic media system of
real public broadcasting, public service broadcasting on commercial media, and independent
nonprofit, noncommercial media.
* Federal Revenue Sharing: Reduce state and local government dependence on regressive sales
and property taxes through federal revenue sharing that combines centralized collection
of progressive and ecological taxes with decentralized decisions on spending.
* Ecological and Feminist Economic Accounting: Expand the Bureau of Labor Statistics into
a Bureau of Household, Labor, and Environmental Statistics with revised national economic
accounts, statistics, and indicators that include stocks and flows of natural wealth,
household production, and labor time values. Existing national income accounts and
indicators such as gross domestic product (GDP) ignore the ecological foundations of the
economy and the value of household production. Ecological accounting will identify the
true costs of resource depletion and pollution and hence appropriate eco-taxes to internalize
full costs. Social accounting will identify the true value of household production and its
contribution to the economy and social well-being. Labor time accounting will record and
publish the current and dated labor time for goods and services, establishing the average
labor time required for each product. These labor time values will serve as shadow prices
against which to judge the fairness of actual market prices.




Let's summarize again:
* 100% tax on income over 10 times the minimum wage, along with huge confiscatory taxes on
inheritance, personal wealth and commodities trading.
* Establish labor time required to make a product and use that figure to determine the
actual market price.

The second bullet is all nice and cute, but it simply re-words the ideas of a pretty famous
philosopher and his ideas of CAPITAL and LABOR: Karl Marx. His idea? Communism. Need I say
it again?


Human Rights and Social Justice
-------------------------------
* African American Reparations: A national commission on reparations for African Americans.
* Reproductive Freedom: People should be free from government interference in making
their reproductive choices, including abortion, which should be covered by all publicly
funded medical insurance programs.
* Comparable Worth: Legislation to enable women and minorities to receive equal pay for
work of equal value.
* End Discrimination Against Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgendered People: Outlaw
discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation in housing, employment, benefits,
and child custody.
* Same-Sex Marriage: Legal recognition of same-sex marriages.



I'm not going to say much here, as these are subject to your own personal beliefs, but I would
like to address the issue of African American Reparations. I realize that this is a touchy
subject, since I'm caucasian and it's easy to throw the "racist" label around, but I would
like the following questions answered:
1) Who gets the money? Can they prove they were directly injured by the slave trade?
2) Who pays the money? I am an immigrant from Germany, and I have none of my family
participated in the US slave trade. Do I have to pay? What about other Americans
who have no connection whatsoever?
3) Who owes the money? What about Africans and dark-skionned Arabs which actively participated
in the slave trade?
4) What about the descendants of Union soldiers whose lives were sacrificed to free
the slaves?
5) If the country is doing so well today partially due to slavery, then haven't
African-Americans who live in that society also benefitted from slavery? Do they
owe anything?



Criminal and Civil Justice Reforms
----------------------------------
* End Political and Racial Persecution by the Criminal Justice System: Freedom for
all political prisoners and prisoners of racial injustice. Clemency for Leonard Peltier.
New trial for Mumia Abu-Jamal.
* Restorative Justice: Establish a humane criminal sanction system based on prevention,
restitution, rehabilitation, and reconciliation rather than vengeance, forced labor,
and profits for the Prison-Industrial Complex. Restore full funding for college
degree granting programs in state and federal prisons. Jobs and justice, not more
police and prisons.
* Oppose Tort Reform that Limits Class Action Lawsuits and Caps Victims' Compensation:
The threat of high victim compensation awards by civil juries must be maintained as
an important deterrent to corporate crime.
* End the "War on Drugs:" Decriminalize possession of drugs. Regulate and tax drug
distribution. Release nonviolent drug war prisoners. Treat drug abuse as a health
problem, not a criminal problem. Drug abuse treatment on demand.



Mumia Abu-Jamal killed a police officer. Not only did he shoot him once from close distance,
but he bent over the helpless officer and emptied his gun into him. That's the kind of
people we need to support. Peltier was convicted in the shooting deaths of two FBI agents.


Labor Law Reforms
-----------------
* Expand Worker' Rights to Organize and Enjoy Free Time:
o 6 Weeks Paid Vacation Annually in addition to Federal Holidays
o 1 Year Paid Educational Leave for Every 7 Years Worked
o 1 Year Parental Leave for Each Child Born with No Loss of Seniority
o Right to Work Short Hours: No discrimination in pay and promotion against
workers who choose to work short hours.



Hmmm. I wonder how much that would cost????


Revitalize Public Education
---------------------------
* Children's Health: Clinics in all schools to check eyes, teeth, and general health at all
grade levels. Healthy food at breakfast, lunch, and after school programs.
Birth control information at middle and high schools.
* Multicultural Teaching Staffs: Strengthen affirmative action programs to recruit and
support ethnic minorities to enter teaching at every level: teacher, aide, assistant,
apprentice.
* Tuition-Free Higher Education: Federal legislation and financing for tuition free
education at public universities and technical schools for everyone who wants it.
* Oppose the Privatization of Public Schools: We oppose all schemes for corporations to
pursue private profits at the expense of public schools and schoolchildren.
o No School Vouchers: No school vouchers from public budgets for private schools.
o No For-Profit or Religious Charter Schools: Stop the diversion of public funds to
for-profit corporations or religious organizations running charter schools with
unaccountable administrations, uncertified teachers, and segregated student bodies.
* Curriculum for a Multicultural Participatory Democracy: We support a democratic public
school curriculum that fosters curiosity, critical thinking, and free expression,
that explicitly promotes democratic and egalitarian anti-racist, anti-sexist, and
multicultural values, that replaces Eurocentric with multicultural textbooks and
other curriculum materials, that does not sort children into academic and non-academic
tracks, and that is academically rigorous with high expectations for all children.

International Solidarity
------------------------
* A Global Green Deal: Build world peace and security through a Global Green Deal.
First, the US should finance universal access to primary education, adequate food,
clean water and sanitation, preventive health care, and family planning services
for every human being on Earth. According to the 1999 UN Development Report, it
would take only an additional $40 billion to Fund Global Basic Human Needs,
an amount that is only 13% of the 2000 US military budget. Second, the US, which
now spends half of the world's military expenditures by itself, should demilitarize
its economy and reinvest the Peace Dividend in financing and technical assistance
for an Ecological Conversion of Human Civilization to Sustainable Systems of Production.
* Peace Conversion: Cut US military spending unilaterally by 75% in two years to establish
a non-interventionist, non-offensive, strictly defensive military posture and save
nearly $250 billion a year.
* Cooperative Security: Pursue a "cooperative security" strategy that seeks mutual
arms reductions, progressive elimination of cross-border offensive capabilities,
and further cuts in military spending. The goal is to progressively demilitarize
down to a non-offensive defense of U.S. national territory using a coast guard,
border guard, national guard, and light air defense system, which would cost about
$3 billion, or less than 1% of current US military spending.
* Democratize the United Nations: Cooperative security cannot work as long as the
United Nations remains a US puppet. Support reforms to democratize the United
Nations, such as more proportionality and power in the General Assembly, an
elected Security Council, and the elimination of the Great Power Veto on the
Security Council.
* A Pro-Democracy Foreign Policy: We call for a fundamental shift in US foreign
policy, from supporting repressive regimes in the interests global corporations
to supporting the pro-democracy labor, social, and environmental movements of the people.
o Support International, Multilateral Peacekeeping to Stop Aggression and Genocide
o No Unilateral US Intervention in the Internal Affairs of Other Countries
o Close All Overseas US Military Bases
o Disband NATO and All Aggressive Military Alliances
o Ban US Arms Exports
o Abolish the CIA, NSA, US Army School of the Americas, and All US Agencies of Covert Warfare
o End the Economic Blockades of Cuba, Iraq, and Yugoslavia
o Cut Off US Military Aid to Counter-Insurgency Wars in Colombia and Mexico
o Freedom for Lori Berenson and All Political Prisoners
o Require a National Referendum to Declare War
* End Global Financial Exploitation: Cancel the debt owed by poor countries to global
banks. End the exploitation of poor countries by IMF "structural adjustment" policies.
Abolish the IMF and World Bank and replace them with a democratic international financial
institution for balancing international accounts and financing short-term current account balances.
* Fair Trade: Withdraw from the World Trade Organization, NAFTA, and all other corporate-managed
trade agreements that are driving down labor and environmental conditions globally. Establish
an internationalist social tariff system that equalizes trade by accounting for the differences
among countries in wages, social benefits, environmental conditions, and political rights.
Tariff revenues to a democratic, international fund for ecological production and democratic
development in poor countries in order to level up social and environmental conditions to a
high common standard.



Where to begin? Gut the military, pay for the rest of the world's problems (it's only going
to cost $40 billion after all, and we'll have a huge amount of money from all those
nice citizens working like crazy so their income can be confiscated by the mandatory
100% tax and all, along with all the wild economic success we'll all be living in after
all the businesses and banks have been turned into democratic worker cooperatives...).
Pull out all of the places where communist insurgencies are taking place. More stuff like
that.

Friends, make no mistake about this: The "Green" Party is controlled by communists. They
should more aptly be named the "Red" party. Do not believe that this is only a minor
part of their platform. Their entire idea structure is centered on communism
(they removed a reference to their desire to abolish money from their last
platform among other things) and that is what they propose for the rest of us.

All of the grand ideas they have cost money, money we constantly create and cosume
in our society. They make the assumption that their policy would continue to
provide them with a means of creating money, but how will that be the case when
economic ruin ensues? "In the vast library of socialist theory there is hardly
a chapter devoted to the creation of wealth - to what will cause human beings to
work and to innovate, and to what will make their efforts efficient. Socialism is
a plan of morally sanctioned theft. It is about dividing up what others have created.
Consequently, socialist economies don't work: they create poverty instead of wealth."
(David Horowitz)

Think about it. What's your incentive to keep working if you aren't going to make more
money? Why should you be more innovative when there's no reward? Socialism ignores
our own human feelings and pretends that we'll do all these things for the greater good.
What is there for the left to divide up when there's nothing created anymore?

I implore you to think through their ideas and determine what the result of implementing
those ideas would be. Don't think for one minute that what the Green Party proposes is NOT
communism. Please compare their platform to the ideas of all failed communist regimes,
and see how much variance there really is. Assuming we implement these ideas, here are
some of the things that we can look forward to, based on what history has told us:

* Official Soviet statistics indicate that following 70 years of socialism, 40% of the Soviet
population and 79% of its older population live in poverty. Judged against western
standards, most of its population lives in poverty

* The per-capita income in the Soviet Union was 1/7 that of the United States, about equal
to Communist China.

* In 1989, there was rationing of meat and bread in the USSR in peacetime. The rations indicate
that the red meat intake for a Soviet citizen was about half that during the time of
the czar in 1913.

* Two thirds of households had no hot water and a third had no running water at all.

* According to Izvestia, a typical working class family of four was forced to live for
eight years in a single eight-by-eight foot room before marginally better accomodations
were made available.

* After 60 years of industrialization, the per capita output of nonmilitary goods and
services places the USSR somewhere between 50th and 60th among the nations of the world.

* More than 70% of the Soviet atmosphere was polluted with 5 times the permissible limit
of toxic chmicals. 30% of all Soviet foods contained hazardous pesticides.

* Before forced collectivization of Russian farms under communist rule, Russia had been
the "breadbasket of Europe," supplying 40% of the world's wheat exports in the bumper
crop years of 1909 and 1910. 50 years after the socialist future, the Soviet Union
had become a net importer of grain, unable to produce enough food for its own
population.

The reason for all this is that the IDEA of socialism itself is monstrously wrong,
imposed on society by an intellectual elite, an idea so passionately believed in yet
so profoundly mistaken that it has caused more misery and suffering than any single
force in history.

Whereas the czarist police had several agents at the height of its power, the
Bolchevist Cheka (forerunner to the KGB) began its career with several hundred
thousand and operated completely outside the law. Under czarist rule, from 1876
to 1904, there had been 486 executions. This would soon change under Bolshevik
rule: 16,000 executions between June 1918 and October 1919. This was only a
drop in the bucket. At the height of the political terror in the late 1930's,
executions occured at the rate of 20,000 a MONTH.

Millions were executed for political "crimes", and many millions more starved
due to the ruthless econimic policies implemented. Not only in the Soviet Union,
but in other progressive socialist regimes around the globe: There were two
million dead in Cambodia alone after the Khmer Rouge's time in power. Add in the
number of dead in China due to the "cultural revolutions" there, and you are
in the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS DEAD.

Now it may seem strange to bring up these harsh realities and at the same time
be discussing the Green Party. Surely they have no such intent and those other
societies must have done "socialism all wrong".

Wrong.

So powerful is the socialist fantasy that they cannot abide by the only industrial
system that is democratic and works. The remedy for these deficiencies clearly
outlined in their party platform - abolishing private property and the economic
market - will lead to the same catastrophy today as it did in 1917. Consider
what one of Karl Marx's own contemporaries wrote in 1872:

"This government will not content itself with administering and governing the
masses politically, as all governments do today. It will also administer the
masses economically, concentrating in the hands of the State the production
and the division of wealth, the cultivation of land... All that will demand
... the reign of scientific intelligence, the most aritstocratic, despotic,
arrogant and elitist of regimes. There will be a new class, a new hierarchy...
the world will be divided into a minority ruling in the name of knowledge,
and an immense ignorant majority. And then, woe unto the mass of ignorant
ones!" (Mikhail Bakunin)

The effor to create a socialist utopia has failed again and again, creating
monstrosities instead. The Soviet Union. Vietnam. Cambodia. Niceragua. China.
Cuba. The list goes on.

These horrors were predictable, even as they predict a similar reality
of what were to happen in our own country if a political force such as this
were to gain power.

"For behind the revolutionary pursuit of the impossible ideal lies a deep
hatred for the human norm, an unquenchable desire for its annihilation.
It was the inhumanity of our radical ambition that made the evil of the
communist epoch so total. Self-hatred is the dark side of the ambition
to exceed all previous human possibility, and the ultimate root of the
revolutionary ideal. TERROR IS THE NECESSARY MEANS FOR AN AGENDA WHOSE
AIM IS TO ERASE THE PAST AND REMAKE THE HUMAN SOULD. THE TOTALITARIAN
STATE WAS NOT AN ABBERATION OF THE PROGRESSIVE SPIRIT, BUT ITS CONSUMMATION."
(David Horowitz).


[Edited to put quotes in quotations]
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 6:11:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
The question really is: What IS the Democratic Party, if they aren't hardline Marxists?




They are WHATEVER will get them back in power.

Sometimes they give the harcore Marxists the podium. Occasionally they slip up and let a decent guy like Joe Lieberman elbow his way to the microphone.

He promptly gets yanked back down.

Thus if they ain't Marxist thru and thru, its only a matter fo time.

Link Posted: 8/23/2004 6:12:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Under Marxism, everyone would be equal, everyone would have as much as they need, and everyone would give what they have. Society would truly be run by the people. The wealth would be distributed EVENLY to ensure that there were no poor. Since everyone would get an equal slice of the pie, there would be no rich, to seize power and force their will on the poor and middle class.


And the list goes on and on. Don't let their social welfare programs fool you, the Democrats are not interested in giving everyone an equal piece of the pie. Don't let their taxation fool you, they can afford it because it buys them power, and they will get most of it back anyways!

The Democrats are NOT Marxists. They are elitests who want to keep the rabble quiet while keeping the money and the power in the hands of a select few.




THere is a difference between theoretical marxism, and how it actually works out in practice.

Per the writings of Karl Marx, Marxism exists NOWHERE in the world. Due to the deviant nature of man, it cannot work.

But in practice, Marxism is rampant. The Dems are practical, tho not theoretical, Marxists.




If by practical Marxism you mean totalitarian Aristocracy with "socialism" and iron fisted rule for the under classes, then yes they would be practical Marxists.

But in reality, they have absolutely no intentions whatsoeverm of becoming our "comrades"! They are above us, and they intend to stay there!!!
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 6:21:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

But in reality, they have absolutely no intentions whatsoeverm of becoming our "comrades"! They are above us, and they intend to stay there!!!




I guess the best way to define it is by looking at the Ten Measures of Marxism.

They are with them right down the line.

Unfortunately, so are some RINOs.

Link Posted: 8/23/2004 6:38:37 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 6:47:05 AM EST
I saw a representative of the Communist party endorse Clinton for president. I have read where the Communist party endorsed Kerry. I am sure that the Communist endorsed Gore. Is that proof enough?
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 6:48:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 6:48:56 AM EST by longun45]
I am reminded of a line from Shakespere, A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

Well the converse is also true. A Pile of Cow shit processed becomes manure, but it's still shit.

Most of the "democrats" would tell you that "I am not a marxist". But they also have no idea what a Marxist is.

The democrats and many republicans believe that higher taxes paid by a few are OK. While in reality these people are the most productive members of the society. Nevermind that all these politicians and their now dependant lot keep their hand out for more. They remind me a ticks on a hound dog.


Alexander Tyler, (in his 1770 book, 'Cycle of Democracy' )

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising them the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over a lousy fiscal
responsibility, always followed by a dictatorship.
The average of the world's great civilizations before they decline has been 200 years.
These nations have progressed in this sequence:
From bondage to spiritual faith;
from spiritual faith to great courage;
from courage to liberty;
from liberty to abundance;
from abundance to selfishness;
from selfishness to complacency;
from complacency to apathy;
from apathy to dependency;
from dependency back again to bondage



I think that about sums it up.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 6:55:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By osprey21:
Democrat = Kruschev was right! (we will bury you)


"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism"


Yep. And true to the Manifesto / Little Red Book, the socialist Po-Mo bastards have spent the last 40yrs subverting our University and Media systems. Can't swing a dead cat without hitting some dipshit spouting 'all viewpoints are equal', 'there is no right or wrong', 'if you are Male and White you are Evil / Guilty'.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 7:02:00 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 7:15:20 AM EST
Here's an interesting list, the "Progressive Caucus"

Dennis Kucinich D-OH, officer

Barbara Lee D-CA, officer

Lynn Woolsey D-CA, officer

Peter DeFazio D-OR, officer

Jesse Jackson, Jr D-IL

Major Owens D-NY, officer

Bernie Sanders D-VT, officer

Hilda Solis, D-CA, officer

Neil Abercrombie D-HI, member

Tammy Baldwin D-WI, member

Xavier Becerra D-CA, member

Corrine Brown D-FL, member

Sherrod Brown D-OH, member

Michael Capuano D-MA, member

Julia Carson D-IN, member

William "Lacy" Clay D-MO, member

John Conyers D-MI, member

Danny Davis D-IL, member

Rosa DeLauro D-CN, member

Lane Evans D-IL, member

Read the rest of the 34 more members on the list, many of which are the "usual suspects" in gun control legislation, for example. Yes. These Democrats are Socialists - admittedly socialist. Read some of their "Issues" papers. They are elected officials in a Democratic Republic who swear to uphold and defend the Constitution, yet they believe in socialism, which is antithetical to the the Constitution.

Are all Democrats Marxist/socialists? Certainly not. But you don't find Republicans in the overwhelming majority on that list, do you?
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