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Posted: 5/23/2002 4:37:51 AM EDT
I started this yesterday, and still think I deserve more than a “SSSsshhhhhhhh, go away” response. Here we have a site moderator, openly, without apology, violating the Code of Conduct launching personal attacks at me for several months, calling me anti-Semite, Jew hater, Nazi sympathizer, terrorist sympathizer, and associating me with Arafat, bin Laden and Hitler, even going so low as to say I’m hoping for another Sept 11 attack (equating me with the Arabs who danced in the streets. What could be a GREATER personal attack on my patriotism??) And there is NO ONE on this site with the courage to call him on the carpet for it?? Does no one have the cahones to stand up against such an obvious violation of the Code of Conduct???? The staff turns a blind eye? NO other Mods have seen this? ( I don’t see how that’s possible since I’ve seen several mods in the same threads when he has attacked me.) And NO members (regardless of whether or not you agree with my points of view) find his behavior objectionable? (Walk a mile in my shoes…) Why is everyone ignoring the huge pink elephant in the middle of the room?? What kind of site is this??? What has happened here in the last six months??? (Note to staff and Mods – PLEASE do not lock this thread if SOMEONE ELSE comes in here with a tirade of inflammatory words. Punish THEM – NOT me by locking MY thread (yet again) )
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 4:43:55 AM EDT
Name that moderator
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 4:47:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2002 5:30:43 AM EDT by TheFNG]
Ok... sorry
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 4:54:58 AM EDT
SSSsshhhhhhhh go away!!!! No really.....I love you man!! Stay....take a load off... Get a grip. What size shoe do you wear??? Oh from personal recent experience.....this is a GREAT SITE!!
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 4:56:09 AM EDT
Wave - Fair question. You have mail. TheFNG - Don't hijack my thread for a broadbased Mod bashing tirade. I'm talking about the specific actions of a single individual. Start your own thread if you like, but this one's mine.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 4:59:44 AM EDT
G-man, you'd have a stronger case if you were to quote or link to the messages that have offended you. Re(IfItDoesn'tFit,YouMustAcquit!)named [}:)]
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 5:07:29 AM EDT
Gman, I'm with Renamed. I guess I missed the whole thing, can you fill us in with a link?
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 5:09:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 5:11:24 AM EDT
Good Morning to all !!
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 5:12:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Waverunner: Name that moderator
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you have to ask? it's sort of a shame that one individual can so taint the otherwise excellent ar15.com experience. it may be that there are some who feel the same way about me (i doubt it, im not quite that self-important), so there are people here that i have chosen to simply ignore. to do otherwise is a waste of virtual breath. cast ye not pearls before swine, or words to that effect.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 5:22:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By lurker:
Originally Posted By Waverunner: Name that moderator
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you have to ask? it's sort of a shame that one individual can so taint the otherwise excellent ar15.com experience. it may be that there are some who feel the same way about me (i doubt it, im not quite that self-important), so there are people here that i have chosen to simply ignore. to do otherwise is a waste of virtual breath. cast ye not pearls before swine, or words to that effect.
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I'm not all knowing nor do I claim to be. I just wanted to be very clear of who the accused individual(s) are. Now that I know, we can now attempt to rectify the situation.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 5:29:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 5:31:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed: G-man, you'd have a stronger case if you were to quote or link to the messages that have offended you. Re(IfItDoesn'tFit,YouMustAcquit!)named [}:)]
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Not being the lawyer-type, I never envisioned I'd have to "build a case" against a brother in arms. I thought he'd be man enuf to KNOCK IT OFF when I asked him to. Boy was I wrong. If you need evidence, consider the following: 1. Look up ANY "Israel" thread where Eric and I have locked horns. He almost ALWAYS, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, degenrates to one of the charachter slurs I referrenced above. Its been going on for MONTHS, repeatedly, in dozens of threads. Its there, for those WILLING to see it (I'm going on teh assumption that you are) 2. I posted the same general thing yesterday. He didn't deny the allegations. In fact, he in a round about way stated my actions has spurred him on to do it (my interpretation) I've asked him personally several times to knock it off, and to apologize, and he has NEVER denied that hes used those slanderous terms. 3. Seek out other board members, and get confirmation from them. Eric has done what he's done in the wide open, for all to see. Only the blind could miss it (unless they have their eyes shut)
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 5:33:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 5:33:15 AM EDT
Nobody likes a tattle-tale. (...at least that's what I tell the 3rd graders, I teach)
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 5:40:31 AM EDT
Sniff...... Can't............ Sniff........ Can't we.....all ....(sniff,sniff) just get along???
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 5:42:39 AM EDT
OK, so you don't like my approach. But my hand has been forced. here's how I explained it to "someone else"...
I have tried EVERYTHING with Eric. Pleading, begging cajoling, agreeing - NOTHING reaches the guy. He's right, and he knows it, end of discussion. I've had private discussions with him, to no avail. Eric committed the offense in the open, for all to see. I think it should be resolved the same way. ESPECIALLY since he's a Mod, and his actions set the tone for the WHOLE BOARD. If his actions are in the wrong, they need to be openly castigated by the Staff (or SOMEONE.) My opinion. (especially since the man-to-man efforts have been rebuffed by him)
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I've endured his violations of the Code of Conduct for months, never having called on the Staff or the Mods to intervene. If you wish to call this "tattle taling" fine. Its a free country.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 5:55:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Aimless: If you have a beef with someone that upset yo this much, this looks like the third thread you have started about this, why don't you either -email or call Mr. Pink Elephant and see if you can settle your differences without getting anyone else involved.
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I have. Repeatedly. In countless threads, man-to-man. No dice. Back when he USED TO have an e-mail addy in his profile, I e-mailed him about his tactics. He maintains his innocence (note-he DOES NOT deny that he uses the tactics). No change. I've IM'd him. Nothing. The behaviour continues.
If you are that pissed e-mail the Avilas.
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I can't find how to do it. Besides, that's a last resort.
Maybe you can get him shitcanned as a moderator and really hurt his feelings over bickering on the internet.
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You think I want him canned? He's too valuable a resource to this board (more valuable than me perhaps, tho that's NOT an excuse for his violations fo board policy) , AND he's a brother in arms. I simply want him to STOP THE BEHAVIOUR.
I think you ought to take a few days off from this and calm down, is it possible you are losing your perspective over this?
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What's that gonna change? This has been going on for MONTHS, INCESSANTLY. I'm completely calm. I've tried every other available avenue (xcept the Avilas - Where the #@!! is Goatboy anyway??) and have carefully weighed out the possible consequences of this arpproach. My perspective is unclouded. As much as a slandered persons perspective can be, anyway.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 5:58:10 AM EDT
Gmna, you really are starting to sound like a baby. Grow up, life aint fair. You should know all about this since you used to be a Mod. Sgtar15
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:03:58 AM EDT
Mark, Poke a hornet's nest, you're gonna get stung a few times... I doubt the hornet makes it *personal* though.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:03:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sgtar15: Gmna, you really are starting to sound like a baby. Grow up, life aint fair. You should know all about this since you used to be a Mod. Sgtar15
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It is common to be cavalier toward injustice - UNTIL it happens to you.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:06:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman:
Originally Posted By sgtar15: Gmna, you really are starting to sound like a baby. Grow up, life aint fair. You should know all about this since you used to be a Mod. Sgtar15
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It is common to be cavalier toward injustice - UNTIL it happens to you.
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Please provide links to this injustice please. I for one would like to see some examples. I have followed a lot of the threads you are talking about and have NOT seen what you are talking about. Please provide a link. Just making charges is not going to change anyones minds without evidence.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:07:34 AM EDT
I declare Thursday April 23, 2002 "Pick on Garandman Day". In honor of this day everyone shall relentlessly hurl insults at Garandman. Shok
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:07:55 AM EDT
Take some advice from your Bible and turn the other cheek. Let it go.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:08:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: Mark, Poke a hornet's nest, you're gonna get stung a few times... .
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I know that. I've carefully weighed what I knew the repercussions would be. I'm even sure a few of the "hornet's" minions will come out and "sting" me. Fine. I accept that.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:11:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2002 6:12:57 AM EDT by AR_Lvr]
GMan I don't know you but I have read many posts and you usually seem to give good info but in a very smartass way. That's not right either. Even in a few of the posts I've had, you've been pretty snide in the way you answer. Sounds to me you dish this shit out pretty frequently and now that someone has done it to you, you scream wolf. Seems a little thin skinned to me. I'm not trying to start shit with you and I certainly side with neither you or Eric. You both have value and both have very opinionated sides that you come from. One thing some of us forget in America is that you can be an asshole to anyone you want but you better expect it to come back to you also. If you don't agree with his posts and he doesn't agree with yours, don't go in there anymore. Just my opinion.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:12:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman:
Originally Posted By sgtar15: Gmna, you really are starting to sound like a baby. Grow up, life aint fair. You should know all about this since you used to be a Mod. Sgtar15
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It is common to be cavalier toward injustice - UNTIL it happens to you.
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Umm...no. Maybe there's a reason everybody is blowing you off on this. It's because nobody believes you've been wronged quite the way you feel. You've given as good as you got. You've stirred the shit plenty of times with Eric. [b]Both of you[/b] have been in the wrong so many times people don't care to hear you complain about it. Your perspective is not as unclouded as you think.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:12:58 AM EDT
I stay out of these threads - although I do read many of them. I know that you both feel very strongly about your viewpoints, and I have seen both of you cross the line (and we all know our "lines" bend from time to time). It is long past time that the two of you should just have "agreed to disagree" and let the issue rest. Even when someone else brings up a topic about Israel, you guys both jump in and go to town. Sincerely, I have a lot of respect for both of you guys - and both you should know when to let it rest. Free to debate issues? Of course! But when the thread goes south, neither if you will walk away.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:12:59 AM EDT
Frankly, I don't have a problem with Eric saying what he did...I do have a problem with anyone criticizing you for responding to him in kind. You have every right to fire back at him in the same style.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:23:43 AM EDT
This is interesting to say the least... [*] When [u]I[/u] was a MOD, everyone hated me ([i]many still do![/i]).[/*] [*] When [u]you[/u] were a MOD, everyone hated you.[/*] [*] Now that [u]ETH[/u] is a MOD, you seem to hate him...[/*] Hate him all want, as it's part of the job that he accepted... but quit bitching, because you didn't like being called out either!
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:26:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AR_Lvr: GMan I don't know you but I have read many posts and you usually seem to give good info but in a very smartass way. That's not right either. Even in a few of the posts I've had, you've been pretty snide in the way you answer. Just my opinion.
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YES, I HAVE been "snide" in my replies. I'll NEVER deny that. Is that justification for someone to come back with personal attacks and insults to my charachter, in violation of the Board Code of Conduct?? In the interests of full disclosure, ONLY ONCE did I make assertions about Eric's charachter - that his divided loyalty between Israel and the US would mean that his patriotism MUST be lacking (Countries are like women - you can only REALLY love one at a time) While I still believe this, I STOPPED using that logic as I considerd it beyond the pale. You'll NOT see me addressing Eric so any time in the last two months (to the best of my recall)
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:27:02 AM EDT
it doesn't matter. both of you are insatiable windbags.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:29:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2002 6:30:14 AM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:29:50 AM EDT
In looking through the most recent Israel thread I can find in which Garandman and EricTheHun both participated ([url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=116367&page=2[/url]), both parties seem to have been quite civil.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:35:05 AM EDT
Aimless, A duel won't do any good, cuz ETH thinks he can out run bullets now. Although he changed the scenario to make me look wrong when I called him on it.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:43:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By antiUSSA: This is interesting to say the least... [*] When [u]I[/u] was a MOD, everyone hated me ([i]many still do![/i]).[/*] [*] When [u]you[/u] were a MOD, everyone hated you.[/*] [*] Now that [u]ETH[/u] is a MOD, you seem to hate him...[/*] Hate him all want, as it's part of the job that he accepted... but quit bitching, because you didn't like being called out either!
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anti - Yer wrong on two counts - 1. I don't "hate" Eric. I've already stated in this thread that he is a valueable resource to this board, AND a brother in arms. 2. When I realized that being an opinionated person (with an eagerness to express it) AND having the position of authority as a Mod was DETRIMENTAL to the well-being of the Board, and our cohesiveness as brothers in arms, I STEPPED DOWN. On my own volition. Now SURE- you'll all say "well is what yer doing now good for "board cohesiveness? " And I'll say YES, UNLESS its your opinion that people of my opinion have no place in this forum. UNLESS you think people of my opinion DESERVE to be called 'anti Senite" and "Jew hater" and accused of "hoping for another Sept. 11." Well, do you?? Think that?? Cuz I'd like to know.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:47:03 AM EDT
Gman, it has happened to me. I have been insulted by Mods, I'v e had threads locked and deleted. To be honest I am surprised I haven't had my account locked yet. The differance is I know who's house I am visiting....their house their rules, even if I disagree with them or think they are unfair. Just the way it is. Sgtar15
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:47:53 AM EDT
Are both you guys going to the BRC??? If so perhaps that would be a far better place to sort all this out? Kick back have a drink or two and kiss and make up!!! ( ps.....I sure hope somebody gets the kiss on film!!!)
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:48:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Aimless: How about a duel? You each get one 5 shot group off hand at 100 yards with an AR15, loser can't post or respond to anything about Israel, arabs, palestinians or jews for 1 year [:D] Edited to add-I meant for the smallest group on a target, not at each other...
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I accept!!!!!!!!!!!! (the on-paper group, that is [}:D] )
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:48:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Aimless: How about a duel? You each get one 5 shot group off hand at 100 yards with an AR15, loser can't post or respond to anything about Israel, arabs, palestinians or jews for 1 year [:D] Edited to add-I meant for the smallest group on a target, not at each other...
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I like this idea...allthough at each other would be funner. You can do it at the BRC and have people place bets[:D] Sgtar15
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:54:04 AM EDT
I think what would be better at the BRC would be to do up a couple of the karate belt "knives" and have a knife fight instead of the shootoff. Now that would be fun to have on videotape.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 6:59:00 AM EDT
[/quote] YES, I HAVE been "snide" in my replies. I'll NEVER deny that. Is that justification for someone to come back with personal attacks and insults to my charachter, in violation of the Board Code of Conduct?? [/quote] No, it is not justified. I was always taught to criticize ideas and not people. If you have to point out charachter issues, than it becomes a fine line often gone over. These issues do however bring up way too much emotion and that's when things become cloudy and people do things out of the norm. As I said, you both provide good input in your own ways. You both like to make things personal too. Get over it. I've gotten sick of people treating people rude and disrespectful for all sorts of reasons. In turn it makes me not want to do things with many poeple. My choice and it seems to work. I aslo usually don't respond to these as it just doesn't matter in the grand scheme. If you feel wronged, say it and be done with it. You have. If you still feel wronged and you can't see the other person admitting the wrong doing, let it go and move on. You sound proud to be snide and rude. This might be where some of your issues exist. If we are truly all bros, you wouldn't do that to anyone. Hell, I'never met you and you seemed to feel justified to be an ass to me. Is that right? I'm a biker too and if my bros were rude to me, they wouldn't be my bros much longer. I'd drop em as a friend quicker than stink on shit. I've just got no time for that shit. I'll treat anyone proper until they crap on me. Fuck 'em after that.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 7:00:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sgtar15: Gman, it has happened to me. I have been insulted by Mods, I'v e had threads locked and deleted. The differance is I know who's house I am visiting....their house their rules, even if I disagree with them or think they are unfair. Just the way it is. Sgtar15
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You are both missing the point.... 1. Insults are great. I love insults. I give 'em, I take 'em. Heck, I insult myself. THIS AIN'T ABOUT INSULTS. Its about a violation of the Code of COnduct by a person in a position of authority. You aren't HONESTLY telling me you would take someone accusing you of "hoping for another Sept. 11" sitting down, are you? Cuz I'll NEVER beleive that. And I REFUSE to do so myself. I WILL be heard. ...and wrong in theory..... 2. This AIN'T the Mods house. Its teh Avilas house, and they've stated their "house rules" in the Code of Conduct. Accordingly, I have EVERY RIGHT to question how the Mods behave in the Avilas house, CUZ THEY ARE UNDER THE SAME CODE OF CONDUCT AS I AM. A Mod is JUST a member with a plastic badge.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 7:06:52 AM EDT
Dear Garandman, It is truly a shame when opposing viewpoints on a political issue can be silenced by name-calling and character assassination from a Mod. It obviously implies a certain "political stance" taken by the board owners, if you get my drift, as otherwise, it would be shut down promptly. The rules against personal attacks and slander should apply equally to all, or else Mods should not be allowed to enter these discussions at all, IMO. In fact, on some boards, the acceptance of a Mod position disqualifies one from heated political discussion. I know exactly what you speak of, and have witnessed the character assassination of many here who dare to disagree with the mainstream, even if they do so politely at first. They are baited and attacked and called names until they lose patience, and get banned. Debate and dissent are fine, but personal attacks as a means to winning an argument by one who has a position of power are mean spirited and childish. The arsch-kissing minions of these Mods are as disgusting as the originals, and they don't even have anything intelligent to add, usually. It is a purely "Me Too" kind of thing. Just consider the source. Feel better, friend, you too are a valuable resource to this board, and you are far from a "One Trick Pony", like some here. You and I have disagreed before on some philosophical issues, but you have never crossed any line in our somewhat lively debates. I respect your courage and intelligence, sir. Don't let the bastards and their minions get you down.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 7:08:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 7:09:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman:
Originally Posted By sgtar15: Gman, it has happened to me. I have been insulted by Mods, I'v e had threads locked and deleted. The differance is I know who's house I am visiting....their house their rules, even if I disagree with them or think they are unfair. Just the way it is. Sgtar15
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You are both missing the point.... 1. Insults are great. I love insults. I give 'em, I take 'em. Heck, I insult myself. THIS AIN'T ABOUT INSULTS. Its about a violation of the Code of COnduct by a person in a position of authority. You aren't HONESTLY telling me you would take someone accusing you of "hoping for another Sept. 11" sitting down, are you? Cuz I'll NEVER beleive that. And I REFUSE to do so myself. I WILL be heard. ...and wrong in theory..... 2. This AIN'T the Mods house. Its teh Avilas house, and they've stated their "house rules" in the Code of Conduct. Accordingly, I have EVERY RIGHT to question how the Mods behave in the Avilas house, CUZ THEY ARE UNDER THE SAME CODE OF CONDUCT AS I AM. A Mod is JUST a member with a plastic badge.
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Garandman, You have the right to speak. You do not have the right to be heard. I am still waiting for links to the supposed transgressions that have occurred against you. At that point I can make up my mind one way or the other.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 7:10:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 7:14:15 AM EDT
G-man, I gotta say I think some of what you are saying has validity. You and Eric do go at it hammer and tong oftentimes. I have seen threads in which you were charactorized as being sympathatic to terrorists. I have also seen Erics loyalty as an American called into question. You have both presented good arguements for your positions, and, frankly, I think these threads have got some readers thinking about their own positions on the issue, not only with Isreal and the "Palestineans", but US foreign aid and intervention in general. As is often the case, sometimes ones charactor is called into question in an arguement such as this. It's human nature. Myself, I've found your exchanges to at times be educational, and always entertaining! You both may have gripes with what the other does sometimes in regard to personal attacks. It happens in the heat of passion. Accept it, or let it pass by.....
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 7:59:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 8:02:35 AM EDT
From yesterday:
Originally Posted By Kevin:
Originally Posted By raf: Garandman, I can't be everywhere, nor can I read every thread and post therein. If you were roughly treated in some threads and I failed to see it and lock the thread, my bad.
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[b]This pertains to all the various pissing matches:[/b] What raf said above is the key point, there are a few guys that just keep things stirred up constantly so overtime we've pretty much tuned it out. We may pop in on one of whoever's threads and read one or two things to see what level the pissing match is at but most of us don't have the time or patience to read every reply and cross reference every accusation. As far as religion, politics, etc. is concerned, if you're steadfast in your cause then just state your points regarding whatever and avoid the petty, childish remarks aimed at others. Many times when some of these threads are locked it done so because of the build up from previous threads, just consider it a cooling off period or something.
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I hope you will read the above and look at our side for a minute. We can't read every single thread and keep tabs on every single incident between all the users of this board. Look at your post count Garandman, it'd be quite a job monitoring every single reply to that many post.[b]If things get way out of line than e-mail or I.M. several moderators or staff.[/b]
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 8:23:38 AM EDT
1st annual BRC cole-slaw wrestling championship Gman vs ETH Settle it this way?
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