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Posted: 7/29/2002 2:05:12 PM EST
After reading the book "Red Dragon Rising" I am surprised we are attacking Iraq instead of China. According to the authors of the book, China has been happily supply weapons of mass destruction to roque nations for aver 30 years. Nukes, cruise missiles, germ and bio weapons, delivery systems, weaponization equipment, traing, scientists, consultants, the list goes on and on. Amazing stuff. I was curious why there were predictions of "War with China within 20 years" until I read this book. TheRedGoat
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 2:11:56 PM EST
China is enemy #1.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 2:18:57 PM EST
They have a population of if I'm correct of about 1,223,111,290 we have a population of 220,000,000, count the digits. They are a nuclear power. They would kill us like the soldier ants kill larger animals in Africa. Or we would both resort to nukes which I think is why we leave each other alone, because that would be the end of this third rock from the sun.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 2:24:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/29/2002 2:34:08 PM EST by ilikelegs]
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 2:30:02 PM EST
Only problem is they have a few LONG RANGERS TOO!
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 2:30:58 PM EST
I dunno. That would drive up the price of Chinese food which is my favorite drunk food. :)
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 2:32:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat: After reading the book "Red Dragon Rising" I am surprised we are attacking Iraq instead of China. TheRedGoat
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Paperback? If it's paperback I'm pretty sure I printed that book. Well I was the press assistant. Thank Christ that ends on the 9th. Anyway, any reason we can't do both? I mean, anytime somebody says FAL vs AR-10, everbody says both. If it works in firearms.....
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 2:38:33 PM EST
Actually the China represents a greater potential danger to the United States than the Soviet Union did at the end of WWII. Why ? China is undergoing reforms which allow its economy to grow at 12 percent per year, and yet still allow the Communist Party to remain in full control. At the same time it is modernizing its military. China's economic output is not the only thing that is growing. Its products and production methods are becoming increasingly more sophisticated. At the same time, during the Clinton Administration several events transpired which had a significant impact on China's Nuclear Forces. (1.) China was given Advanced Missle Guidance Systems along with the technology to replicate those systems. Allowing their missle warheads to become accurate enough not only to threaten our cities but to threaten military targets as well. (2.) China stole all of our designs on all of our Nuclear Warheads from Los Alamos. (3.) China now posesses super computers as well as advanced CAD/CAM machinery. (4.) China is now beginning to produce semi-conductor wafers. Has China's internal policys changed with the change in its economy? No. China still violently represses disent. It is also using a combination of threats along with economic blackmail to try to force Taiwan to come under its rule. Taiwan's economy as well as its Military has been undergoing a significant decline. The Number of estimated missles that China has targeted the US has grown from 5 to over 20. Currently Chinese ICBM's only have enough range to blast Hawai or the West Coast of the United States, but that will change with their next generation of ICBM's. China is also beginning to build a real blue water Navy, and has a long range goal of becoming the dominant power in Asia and the western Pacific. There are some interesting though disturbing trends as well. The Chinese are still furious at the Japanese over WWII atrocities. Japan is nervous that the Chinese will start to become a serious nuclear threat to Japan. In fact the Japanese are so nervous that they are having parlimentary discussions on modifying their constitution to allow an offensive military and nuclear weapons. To the Chinese, a nuclear armed Japan is unacceptable.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 2:39:55 PM EST
Meanwhile manufacturing bases of corporations are moving to China. Not only from the US but from Taiwan as well. In 1945 General George Patton urged Eisenhower that the US needed to launch a pre-emptive strike against the Soviet Union. Citing that they Soviet Union represented a bigger threat to democracy and western civilization than the recently defeated Nazi Germany. Eisenhower was incredulous and outraged that our Ally the Soviet Union would have such designs on Europe. Patton was rebuked and forced to give up his command. In 1948 the Soviets violently repressed an uprising in Eastern Germany, and then blockaded Berlin. In 1949: using stolen plans, they exploded their first Atomic Device. 2 years after the US exploded its first Hydrogen Bomb, the Soviets detonated their own H-Bomb. It is in the best long range interests of the United States to launch a pre-emptive nuclear strike against mainland China. While this may sound outrageous, consider the alternative: China armed with thousands of accurate and powerful ICBM's and possessing a blue water navy as strong as our former adversary, the Soviet Union. Consider how many times both the United States and the Soviet Union came within a hairs breadth of a nuclear war breaking out. We can currently annihilate China's cities and its ability to produce sophisticated weaponry, while suffering minimal losses. In the future we won't have that luxury. We need to strike China NOW!
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 2:42:05 PM EST
I don't know fella's, Lets leave these fuckers alone till we perfect the ELECTROMAGNETIC PULSE WEAPON!
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 2:54:50 PM EST
The China problem can plausibly be kicked down the road. They are reasonably rational and can be deterred, if nothing else. There is a non-trivial prospect that they'll reform somewhere down the line and become more democratic and less aggressive. The Islamacists, on the other hand, are unlikely to be deterred. They need to be wiped out, pronto, before they can do any more damage on a large scale.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 3:05:54 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 3:07:13 PM EST
How many nukes have to be detonated before a nuclear winter sets in, this would mean the end of the world. The environment is on the edge right now, a nuclear exchange in anything but a limited tactical nuke type of thing would finish the world. Nukes are out, no one with knowledge of there effects would use them.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 3:12:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat: After reading the book "Red Dragon Rising" I am surprised we are attacking Iraq instead of China. TheRedGoat
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One word..TRADE. Never forget, it's the bankers and corporations running the show. The ONLY time there's a war, is when there's $$ to be made......
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 3:22:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 3:25:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/29/2002 3:27:43 PM EST by MurderSHO45]
Originally Posted By bountyhunter: How many nukes have to be detonated before a nuclear winter sets in, this would mean the end of the world. The environment is on the edge right now, a nuclear exchange in anything but a limited tactical nuke type of thing would finish the world. Nukes are out, no one with knowledge of there effects would use them.
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Wow!! Other dominant species of our beloved earth's past all died eventually of natural causes and lived for millions of years, some still living today. Humans on the other hand will for will for sure die to our on "unnatural" causes like Nuclear fallout. So sad. They say humans use 6% to 10% of our brains true ability. Does that mean if we used 50% of our brain we would die off even quicker? Or does it mean we'd find a work to work this inevitable problem out?
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 3:33:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By MurderSHO45:
Originally Posted By bountyhunter: How many nukes have to be detonated before a nuclear winter sets in, this would mean the end of the world. The environment is on the edge right now, a nuclear exchange in anything but a limited tactical nuke type of thing would finish the world. Nukes are out, no one with knowledge of there effects would use them.
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Wow!! Other dominant species of our beloved earth's past all died eventually of natural causes and lived for millions of years, some still living today. Humans on the other hand will for will for sure die to our on "unnatural" causes like Nuclear fallout. So sad. They say humans use 6% to 10% of our brains true ability. Does that mean if we used 50% of our brain we would die off even quicker? Or does it mean we'd find a work to work this inevitable problem out?
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I have sat here and read your post a couple times, now just what they heck are you trying to say or did you have a seizure at the key board?
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 3:42:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/29/2002 3:45:21 PM EST by raf]
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 3:52:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/29/2002 3:53:22 PM EST by MurderSHO45]
Originally Posted By bountyhunter:
Originally Posted By MurderSHO45:
Originally Posted By bountyhunter: How many nukes have to be detonated before a nuclear winter sets in, this would mean the end of the world. The environment is on the edge right now, a nuclear exchange in anything but a limited tactical nuke type of thing would finish the world. Nukes are out, no one with knowledge of there effects would use them.
View Quote
Wow!! Other dominant species of our beloved earth's past all died eventually of natural causes and lived for millions of years, some still living today. Humans on the other hand will for will for sure die to our on "unnatural" causes like Nuclear fallout. So sad. They say humans use 6% to 10% of our brains true ability. Does that mean if we used 50% of our brain we would die off even quicker? Or does it mean we'd find a work to work this inevitable problem out?
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I have sat here and read your post a couple times, now just what they heck are you trying to say or did you have a seizure at the key board?
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I don't know. My mind just wondered. I was basically generalizing everything. If you were to do that, wouldn't that be it? Edited to say, "why do I have a headache now?" [:P]
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 4:40:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By Spade:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat: After reading the book "Red Dragon Rising" I am surprised we are attacking Iraq instead of China. TheRedGoat
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Paperback? Hardback.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 4:49:34 PM EST
A good book is Tom Clancey's novel Red Storm Rising, man it is good reading.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 4:56:57 PM EST
china only cares about one thing our money, they sell weapons to our enemies, that should be stopped one way or another.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 5:01:33 PM EST
attacking china would be foolish. from a cost and likely casualty number standpoint. they will cease to be any kind of military threat when the old guard dies of old age. most of china is a bunch of poor people and/or dirt farmers. who wants to nuke a bunch of dirt farmers with little if any ambition to conquer the globe? not that they are a huge threat anyway. the gov't is too busy oppressing their own people and clinging to power to be all that concerned about us, and don't forget how much they want to trade with us. if we attack anyone it shoudl be iraq. or perhaps france. ahem...
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 5:12:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By bountyhunter: How many nukes have to be detonated before a nuclear winter sets in, this would mean the end of the world. The environment is on the edge right now, a nuclear exchange in anything but a limited tactical nuke type of thing would finish the world. Nukes are out, no one with knowledge of there effects would use them.
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That a nuclear war would be the extermination of all species save cockroaches is a combination of urban myth and media sensationalism. It's quite possible to survive nuclear holocaust. Now, I'm not saying it would be fun--in fact, it would fuckin' suck, but it can be done. If you're really interested in this sort of thing, the book, "Alas, Babylon" by Pat Frank. It is a fictional story written in 1959 about an all-out nuclear war with the Russians on how a commmunity in Florida survives it. Whether you want to learn about nuclear war or not, it is an excellent book. Also, see the web page: http://www.oism.org/nwss/ For survival information specifically about nuclear war. That web page even has plans on how to build your own dosimeter!
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 5:14:12 PM EST
Been said before, I'll say it again... 'Never fight a land war in Asia'... Also, nuclear weapons as a first strike would more likely than not cause other nuclear powers to take pot shots at us. If they shoot first, light 'em up. Other wise, leave them be (nuke wise). The only logical reason to go to war with China is over Taiwan, and they'll start that one (or make us start it for them (preemption)). Period!
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 5:16:24 PM EST
Anyone been to Wally-World (Wal-Mart) lately? They've become the dumping grounds for Chinese goods. Check out www.skolnicksreport.com for some interesting info regarding the relationship between Wal-Mart and China.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 5:17:40 PM EST
Fromo the perspective of the authors, the Clinton/Gore camps were trying to appease the Chinese PLA/Party members. From that appeasement: 1. China is becoming the arms dealer to the world. 2. China is using our technology to improve their military 3. The PLA is the threat, not the Chinese people 4. It is all about money TRG
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 5:29:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By liberty86:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat: After reading the book "Red Dragon Rising" I am surprised we are attacking Iraq instead of China. TheRedGoat
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One word..TRADE. Never forget, it's the bankers and corporations running the show. The ONLY time there's a war, is when there's $$ to be made......
View Quote
i was just going to say that look at how much of our crap is made in CHINA. it would be stupid for china to get ionvolved in war with us. it would royaly shaft there economy.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 5:29:29 PM EST
Right now, and for the next several months, China is holding a gigantic war games exercise opposite Taiwan. Would take practically no effort to switch from war games to actual attack. Watch China VERY carefully when we light it up with Iraq and are totally tied up in that little thing. Nick
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 5:29:58 PM EST
elvez has a point. The chicoms are fairly introverted, to the point of xenophobia,and unless they are completely insane, do not want a war with the U.S. Wars with the U.S. have not been going well for the adversary in recent years. Every tinhorn dictator in power right now has asked himself, "gee I wonder whatever became of Mulla Omar.....". The Mohammed Cultists, on the other hand, will not be happy until every human on the planet has his/her ass in the air five times a day, & don't care how much innocent blood must be shed to achieve this. They are the new nazis, the next generation of kamikazes, and they are problem no. 1 for western civilization. we'll get around to the last remaining commie dictators, but the camel jockeys need a serious spanking [b]right quick-like[/b]
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 5:35:10 PM EST
[img]http://www.smorrellbooks.com/ringaroundus.jpg[/img] Any questions as to what China's Ultimate goals are? Nick
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 5:44:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By Commando_Guy: Any questions as to what China's Ultimate goals are? Nick
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Not in my mind. The reason the Chinese consider those ports, and their associated container ships to be assets is simple. the PLA owns those shipping companies. The Panama canal is controlled at both ends by Chinese Corporations. China is not dumb. Attacking Taiwan will detroy the goose that lays the golden egg. They will not directly attack. they will use other means to sway public opinion, then stage a semi-peaceful coup. The same is true for China vs. USA. China knows that attacking the US ruins thier other Golden goose. They are, instead, selling arms to america's enemies so that the Rogue/Terrorist Nations can attack the US. America becomes weakened, China makes a killing in Arms sales, and the PLA never gets its hands dirty.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 5:55:52 PM EST
You should read NEW LIES FOR OLD and the PERESTROIKA DECEPTION by Anatoly Golitsyn, eminent KGB defector. He stated that when the time comes, there will be a "scissors movement" of China and Russia simultaneously coming together economically and militarily to deal with America and the West.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 6:20:54 PM EST
No one is saying china is going to attack in the near future. What china is doing is building themselves into a super power with the help of the west, but the day will come when they will grow out of being a cheap place for the west to get goods. china is moving very fast technologically and militarily, much faster than all the "experts" were saying only 5 years ago. The two most important things you need to remember about china is they believe they can with stand a full assault (including NBC) from the United States and they believe they do not need the west economically once they build their super power. china does not believe in the "global economy", they will milk it until it no longer benefits them, they believe in full china self sufficiency. It is sad to say, but as long as china is run by the most oppressive and brutal rulers we have on the face of the planet the future looks bleek for everyone. I do not want my children or grand children living in a world where these POS are the dominant super power. The western captains of industry and power brokers need to look at the long term future hurt they are inflicting upon there own country in dealing with chi-com and try not to get caught up in the quick profit taking they are enjoying now. The POS in beijing would love nothing better then to use western capitalism as there weapon to destroy the west. The western political leaderships of all the free countries should be actively trying to subvert china's growth with good Intel, espionage and covert operation's both militarily and economically until the chinese leadership and communist industrial/military complex is destroyed and china can become a true free country. If we fail in this mission war will come and that will be a dark day indeed.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 6:31:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By Dave_A: Been said before, I'll say it again... 'Never fight a land war in Asia'... Also, nuclear weapons as a first strike would more likely than not cause other nuclear powers to take pot shots at us. If they shoot first, light 'em up. Other wise, leave them be (nuke wise). The only logical reason to go to war with China is over Taiwan, and they'll start that one (or make us start it for them (preemption)). Period!
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Very good point, if the nukes start flying more and more will fly by Nations trying to get the edge on us, by the time its over it will be over. Some one said survive a nuclear war, my god, come on man, there is no way to survive, just slow death. Anything else is government propaganda. FACT vs FICTION
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 7:08:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/29/2002 7:10:12 PM EST by out-a-ammo]
Originally Posted By N_Viejo:
Originally Posted By bountyhunter: How many nukes have to be detonated before a nuclear winter sets in, this would mean the end of the world. The environment is on the edge right now, a nuclear exchange in anything but a limited tactical nuke type of thing would finish the world. Nukes are out, no one with knowledge of there effects would use them.
View Quote
That a nuclear war would be the extermination of all species save cockroaches is a combination of urban myth and media sensationalism. It's quite possible to survive nuclear holocaust. Now, I'm not saying it would be fun--in fact, it would fuckin' suck, but it can be done. If you're really interested in this sort of thing, the book, "Alas, Babylon" by Pat Frank. It is a fictional story written in 1959 about an all-out nuclear war with the Russians on how a commmunity in Florida survives it. Whether you want to learn about nuclear war or not, it is an excellent book. Also, see the web page: [url]http://www.oism.org/nwss/[/url] For survival information specifically about nuclear war. That web page even has plans on how to build your own dosimeter!
View Quote
I have that book around here somewhere. Good read. Edited to make your link hot
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 8:19:05 PM EST
Looking at commando guy's map told me one thing. Why are we worried about missiles? They can smuggle tactical nukes and place them willy-nilly where ever they please. Chemical warfare agents in large containers going to Sam's club on timers to go off on a predetermined schedule, yadda, yadda, bang. Sniff, dead. Okay, where did my TFH go? Later, G.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 8:23:38 PM EST
Tyler's crazy idea... China will indeed have a much bigger problem than expected if/when she decides to fork with the USA. Why? The USA and Russia WILL be great allies, and neither wants to see China become too powerful. Yeah, maybe it sounds crazy... but we will see. Tyler
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 8:46:18 PM EST
The longer we wait the more horrible it is going to be. Five years ago they had something like 15-20 nukes. Now I think I heard they have hundreds. And now they can hit us anywhere too. Maybe we're already screwed.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 8:50:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By bountyhunter: How many nukes have to be detonated before a nuclear winter sets in, this would mean the end of the world. The environment is on the edge right now, a nuclear exchange in anything but a limited tactical nuke type of thing would finish the world. Nukes are out, no one with knowledge of there effects would use them.
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No civilized person with the hope of a future would use them. I would bet Saddam (or china's regime) backed into a corner would use them.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 8:55:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/29/2002 8:58:31 PM EST by Johnny_Reno]
Originally Posted By zonan: The longer we wait the more horrible it is going to be. Five years ago they had something like 15-20 nukes. Now I think I heard they have hundreds. And now they can hit us anywhere too. Maybe we're already screwed.
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No, they have 20. The Chinese nuclear threat is not credible. Correction: I didn't take into account their SLBMs. Add 24 more. Still pales in comparison to our stockpile. [url]http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/icbm/index.html[/url] [url]http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/slbm/index.html[/url]
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 9:24:45 PM EST
Points... Nuclear Winter is a myth based on old computer models that failed to take into account Oceanic and maritime influences on world weather. China will have a severe population collapse within the next 50 years, as thier one child policy has lead to very disproportionate male-female ratios of a high as 50:1 in some areas. Large parts of the Chinese military are based on conscript forces, which are incredibelly vulnerable to force multipliers. The bulk of thier military is useless against a determined and competent foe, and they know it.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 9:31:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/29/2002 9:31:59 PM EST by mattja]
Originally Posted By Dugster: The western captains of industry and power brokers need to look at the long term future hurt they are inflicting upon there own country in dealing with chi-com and try not to get caught up in the quick profit taking they are enjoying now. The POS in beijing would love nothing better then to use western capitalism as there weapon to destroy the west.
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I sincerely believe both retail and institutional investors would severely punish any corporation that refused to do business with China. It is a sad commentary on modern America.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 9:46:16 PM EST
You guys are off base if you think we will not have a war to the death with China. Ancestor worship is a daily and important part of the average Chinese citizens life and there ancestors cannot rest until they fulfill their destiny of ruling the entire Asian world which includes Japan, the Philippines, Australia, Taiwan and the nation of India just to name a few. They see us as the main obstacle to the completion of their destiny and if a time ever comes when they have a new weapons technology that can give them a decisive victory over us it will be deployed against us. End of story. THISISME
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 9:54:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By THISISME: Ancestor worship is a daily and important part of the average Chinese citizens life and there ancestors cannot rest until they fulfill their destiny of ruling the entire Asian world which includes Japan, the Philippines, Australia, Taiwan and the nation of India just to name a few.
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Source please?
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 10:02:06 PM EST
for the bloodthirsty people here, why in the hell we need war with other countries we dont like?? who are you to judge your life is more valuable than theirs? i believe 99.999 percent of over 1 billion chinese dont know shit about nukes blahblah.. what they know is how to make $3-5 a month working as farmers or whatever to live. Please appreciate life.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 10:03:15 PM EST
The Author of Red Dragon Rising said so on Hannity and Colmes last year. When they burn incense, Who do you think they are burning it to? Why do you think they have had so many war for dominance of the region in their long history? THISISME
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 10:04:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By THISISME: The Author of Red Dragon Rising said so on Hannity and Colmes last year. When they burn incense, Who do you think they are burning it to? Why do you think they have had so many war for dominance of the region in their long history? THISISME
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Hmmm...one guy's opinion. IMO that's not compelling evidence.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 10:08:58 PM EST
Originally Posted By THISISME: The Author of Red Dragon Rising said so on Hannity and Colmes last year. When they burn incense, Who do you think they are burning it to? Why do you think they have had so many war for dominance of the region in their long history? THISISME
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theyre burning incense since thousand years ago before america even founded!
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 10:15:50 PM EST
Johnny_Reno, I don’t remember the all of the Authors qualifications but he is a widely acknowledged authority on the subject of China and her people. Abri, It has nothing to do with America. It is part of their Ancestor worship and illustrates that it is still an important part of their life. THISISME
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 10:37:44 PM EST
I'm always suspicious of an "expert" trying to pass on his opinion while coincidentally aquiring financial gain as a result of his "inside" knowledge. Do I think China poses a threat? Yes - mainly to Taiwan. Could that draw us into armed conflict with them? Yep - Bush 43 was the first President to say the U.S. would defend Taiwan militarily. That's the bugaboo threat that China presents to the United States. China's history is not one of conquest (such as Britain or Germany) but rather one of internal infighting. Taiwan fits into that picture nicely. China would have to work full-bore for a couple of decades to achieve even nuclear parity with us and even then would just be in the same situation as Russia; deterred by mutual assured destruction. Let's the Chinese burn their twigs - I don't think they're going to invade Montana anytime soon.
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