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Posted: 9/1/2015 6:33:17 PM EST
Military Arms Channel released a video yesterday showcasing Underwood's take on Lehigh Defense's 9mm Xtreme Penetrator round - and the results look promising.

For the TL;DW crowd: Lehigh Defense came out with a bullet design which carves out 4 channels into the bullet's face in the shape of a plus sign in order to create a solid copper FMJ bullet that produces a much larger wound channel than other typical round-nosed FMJ bullets. This has resulted in a non-expanding bullet that penetrates deeper than JHPs while creating a wider and deeper wound channel than both standard FMJs and JHPs.

One of the possible downsides is that they tend to "overpenetrate" (if you go by the FBI's standard penetration depth of 12 to 18 inches) since the bullets in the test penetrated between 17 and 22 inches - which MAC claimed is a superior penetration range, in his opinion, to the FBI standard. He apparently came to that conclusion based on his experience with shooting a recently killed hog in the shoulder and observing that the bullet didn't penetrate through the other side of the hog - which, in his mind, was proof that the 12 to 18 inch FBI penetration requirement was bogus.

Another possible downside is reliability issues that could be caused by the relatively light weight of the bullet (90 grains) failing to cycle the slide and the bullet flutes getting jammed into the feeding ramp. I'd personally like to see Underwood release a video showing at least 1,000 rounds of this stuff cycling through a common pistol like the Glock 19.

Part 1 of 2.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 6:33:53 PM EST
Part 2 of 2.

I think that the main point of controversy here is whether or not he's right about the FBI requirement of 12 to 18 inches of penetration not being valid. I mean, the guys that came up with that requirement were experts on bullet wounds. Shooting some dead hog doesn't exactly debunk their findings. But I'm not an expert on terminal ballistics, so I can't really comment with authority on why they were right or not about limiting the maximum penetration depth to 18 inches. I always just assumed that they made that recommendation in order to limit the possibility of collateral damage and maximize the release of the bullet's kinetic energy into the target.

So, I guess that the conclusion from his video should be that for those of us that don't really care about a few inches of overpenetration and want to create the largest wound channel possible, then this new bullet design has indeed made traditional JHPs obsolete.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 6:34:19 PM EST
no
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 6:35:14 PM EST
22 plinkster on YouTube used one of their rounds out of a G40. Round went through 2 inches of bullet proof glass. Or that bullet proof plastic window stuff.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 6:43:24 PM EST
When I researched this question pretty extensively (a long time ago) I read that only CNS hits or significant skeletal damage reliably put a BG down. I concluded from what I read that FMJ is as good as HP because FMJ's presumptively greater penetration increases the likelihood of a CNS/skeletal hit. In any event, my EDC is HP.

YMMV
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 6:46:13 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 6:47:45 PM EST
If lawyers and prosecutors did not exist, FMJ would be suitable for stopping bad guys.

Hollow point bullets are designed to minimize the possibility of over penetration, the side benefit is that sometimes they get bigger.....




Link Posted: 9/1/2015 6:47:47 PM EST
Saw that video this morning, Lehigh makes some interesting bullet for sure, after seeing the ballistics gel results I wouldn't fault anyone for making that their carry round of choice if it feeds reliably in their gun. I don't see a burning need to get rid of my 124gr HSTs though, think the ballistics gel shows that they also get the job done.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 6:49:18 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 6:49:50 PM EST
Maybe for 380.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 6:50:32 PM EST
Seems like snake oil.....
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 6:51:19 PM EST
Ammo Oracle has a whole section on terminal ballistics. Its for rifles, but it applies to pistol rounds too.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 6:51:36 PM EST
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The only sensible answer
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 6:51:48 PM EST
I bet that shit would bind up a 1911 like no ones business
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 6:51:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2015 6:53:26 PM EST by the_naked_prophet]
I like the idea of this ammo. Expending the bullet's energy to deform the metal bullet seems like a waste of limited KE.

It also seems like this bullet wouldn't have problems with the cavity being clogged.

Would I carry it? Yeah. Mass-produce it so it's not so expensive, get some more folks to test it. I don't see any downsides at that point. ETA: assuming it feeds in your gun.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 6:52:35 PM EST
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Link Posted: 9/1/2015 6:53:00 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Rifleguy81:
If lawyers and prosecutors did not exist, FMJ would be suitable for stopping bad guys.

Hollow point bullets are designed to minimize the possibility of over penetration, the side benefit is that sometimes they get bigger.....




View Quote

Wrong
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 6:54:44 PM EST
Same snake oil from a few years ago.

Pushing lightweight bullets at extremely high pressures is nothing new.

It will wreck barrels and cause premature wear and tear.


Bonded bullets are the best you'll get right now until we come up with something "in the 40 watt range"


Link Posted: 9/1/2015 6:54:56 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Elijah1:
I bet that shit would bind up a 1911 like no ones business
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a proper ramp and throat job on a 1911 and it can feed empty brass......
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 6:55:19 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Rifleguy81:
If lawyers and prosecutors did not exist, FMJ would be suitable for stopping bad guys.

Hollow point bullets are designed to minimize the possibility of over penetration, the side benefit is that sometimes they get bigger.....




View Quote


Given that only 17% or whatever paltry number of rounds actually hits the intended target during a heated gunfight, simply the number of errant rounds flying all over the place makes overpenetration a moot point.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:01:15 PM EST
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Originally Posted By RANGER_556:
Same snake oil from a few years ago.

Pushing lightweight bullets at extremely high pressures is nothing new.

It will wreck barrels and cause premature wear and tear.


Bonded bullets are the best you'll get right now until we come up with something "in the 40 watt range"


View Quote

except when you change bullet shape and materials you have to test it ...because it might be better...
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:01:26 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Rifleguy81:
If lawyers and prosecutors did not exist, FMJ would be suitable for stopping bad guys.

Hollow point bullets are designed to minimize the possibility of over penetration, the side benefit is that sometimes they get bigger.....




View Quote


I'm interested here. Not trying to be difficult, but do you have case law or any links to support what you just posted. I always believed hollow points expanded to release energy upon the body quickly instead of rapidly going through the flesh while leaving a smaller wound cavity, but that could be just sophistry on my part. I am no expert in ballistics. Any lawsuits or example you can give me regarding over FMJ verses hollow points would be of interest. Any studies I can read?
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:01:40 PM EST
A quality JHP will reliably create a larger wound channel compared to an FMJ, and will give you all the penetration that you need. I believe that JHPs are overall a better choice than FMJs (especially for 9mm). The 9mm HST and Ranger-T will often expand to 0.75"+, and that's a massive increase compared to the size of the bullet as it's leaving the barrel (0.355").

Perhaps this is an "interesting" bullet design, but I think I'll stick with the tried-and-true Winchester Ranger-T series (the 127gr +P+ RA9TA is my personal fav).
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:02:21 PM EST
DRT rounds are the BOMB
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:06:06 PM EST
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Originally Posted By RANGER_556:

Wrong
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Originally Posted By RANGER_556:
Originally Posted By Rifleguy81:
If lawyers and prosecutors did not exist, FMJ would be suitable for stopping bad guys.

Hollow point bullets are designed to minimize the possibility of over penetration, the side benefit is that sometimes they get bigger.....





Wrong


If CNS shots are the only guaranteed way of stopping a target, what difference does it make if its a hollow point or FMJ.

Also, I should clarify Im talking about handgun rounds in a non-LEO defensive role.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:06:38 PM EST
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Originally Posted By RANGER_556:
Same snake oil from a few years ago.

Pushing lightweight bullets at extremely high pressures is nothing new.

It will wreck barrels and cause premature wear and tear.


Bonded bullets are the best you'll get right now until we come up with something "in the 40 watt range"


View Quote


I'm fairly certain you have not done your homework on this bullet.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:07:09 PM EST
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Originally Posted By arizona_andy:
A quality JHP will reliably create a larger wound channel compared to an FMJ, and will give you all the penetration that you need. I believe that JHPs are overall a better choice than FMJs (especially for 9mm). The 9mm HST and Ranger-T will often expand to 0.75"+, and that's a massive increase compared to the size of the bullet as it's leaving the barrel (0.355").

Perhaps this is an "interesting" bullet design, but I think I'll stick with the tried-and-true Winchester Ranger-T series (the 127gr +P+ RA9TA is my personal fav).
View Quote


These aren't typical FMJs, though. If you watched the video, you'd see that these Underwood bullets outperformed a 124-grain Federal HST - widely regarded as one of the best JHPs. Not only was the wound track wider, but it was much longer as well.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:11:53 PM EST
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Is the dude on the right in black face? Or is that tactical shoe polish?
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:13:06 PM EST
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Originally Posted By BURN:

a proper ramp and throat job on a 1911 and it can feed empty brass......
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Originally Posted By BURN:
Originally Posted By Elijah1:
I bet that shit would bind up a 1911 like no ones business

a proper ramp and throat job on a 1911 and it can feed empty brass......



My cheap little RIA does that. Any in spec and correctly functioning 1911 will, ,and you don't need any ramp or throat work. Good mags and a correctly tuned extractor, along with the proper weight recoil and hammer spring is all that is needed. The empty case test is actually an original feeding test procedure done since the guns were first produced.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:13:35 PM EST
LOL just carry G2R Rip rounds and youll be set
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:15:22 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Rifleguy81:
If CNS shots are the only guaranteed way of stopping a target, what difference does it make if its a hollow point or FMJ.

Also, I should clarify Im talking about handgun rounds in a non-LEO defensive role.
View Quote


You are correct that a CNS shot is the only thing that will reliably stop a fight. With that said, you have a better chance of severing a spinal cord with a 0.75" diameter projectile vs. one that is only 0.355". I'll take any edge I can get if I am ever forced to use my pistol to defend myself.

I recall reading an FBI report about 10 years ago regarding a knife-wielding guy who was shot 4-5 times in the chest by an officer with a .45 ACP, and his response was something to the effect of "those feel like bee stings". He only stopped what he was doing after the last round, and he did not die (I can try to find the source if anyone is interested). The human body is amazing.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:15:57 PM EST
OP, you can use something like the Hornaday XTPs, which are actually hunting rounds originally, and designed to penetrate more than they are to open big. They don't open as large as some, will penetrate deeper than most, but still, my average on animals is about .750 diameter, from a .45acp 230gr.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:16:31 PM EST
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Originally Posted By AR45fan:


Is the dude on the right in black face? Or is that tactical shoe polish?
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Originally Posted By AR45fan:


Is the dude on the right in black face? Or is that tactical shoe polish?


I noticed that too. My guess is tactical black face, courtesy of Photoshop.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:18:19 PM EST
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Originally Posted By neverenough86:
Seems like snake oil.....
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This, but I'm willing to let others guinea pig it for me.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:20:23 PM EST
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Originally Posted By pavlovwolf:



My cheap little RIA does that. Any in spec and correctly functioning 1911 will, ,and you don't need any ramp or throat work. Good mags and a correctly tuned extractor, along with the proper weight recoil and hammer spring is all that is needed. The empty case test is actually an original feeding test procedure done since the guns were first produced.
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Originally Posted By pavlovwolf:
Originally Posted By BURN:
Originally Posted By Elijah1:
I bet that shit would bind up a 1911 like no ones business

a proper ramp and throat job on a 1911 and it can feed empty brass......



My cheap little RIA does that. Any in spec and correctly functioning 1911 will, ,and you don't need any ramp or throat work. Good mags and a correctly tuned extractor, along with the proper weight recoil and hammer spring is all that is needed. The empty case test is actually an original feeding test procedure done since the guns were first produced.

I know this and when I say proper throat and ramp job I am talking about when the gun is put together...

but a lot of companies have dropped that ball on this...
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:23:15 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Rifleguy81:
If lawyers and prosecutors did not exist, FMJ would be suitable for stopping bad guys.

Hollow point bullets are designed to minimize the possibility of over penetration, the side benefit is that sometimes they get bigger.....


View Quote



My sarcasm meter is perhaps broken, given that hollow points have been around a long, long time, and exist for a very good reasons, and none of them have to do with lawyers or prosecutors.
a serious clue that you are wrong - they're illegal in NJ. if your premise was accurate, they would not be illegal there.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:26:13 PM EST
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Originally Posted By dorobuta:



My sarcasm meter is perhaps broken, given that hollow points have been around a long, long time, and exist for a very good reasons, and none of them have to do with lawyers or prosecutors.
a serious clue that you are wrong - they're illegal in NJ. if your premise was accurate, they would not be illegal there.
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Originally Posted By dorobuta:
Originally Posted By Rifleguy81:
If lawyers and prosecutors did not exist, FMJ would be suitable for stopping bad guys.

Hollow point bullets are designed to minimize the possibility of over penetration, the side benefit is that sometimes they get bigger.....





My sarcasm meter is perhaps broken, given that hollow points have been around a long, long time, and exist for a very good reasons, and none of them have to do with lawyers or prosecutors.
a serious clue that you are wrong - they're illegal in NJ. if your premise was accurate, they would not be illegal there.

NJ is a horrible example.

You can't even pump your own gas there



Keep in mind this is GD and my initial response is GDish.

Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:27:34 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Rifleguy81:
If CNS shots are the only guaranteed way of stopping a target, what difference does it make if its a hollow point or FMJ.

Also, I should clarify Im talking about handgun rounds in a non-LEO defensive role.
View Quote



two things: tissue destruction and blood loss.
You may not get an instant stop, but more damage usually means you will get a stop at some point. I want as much damage from each shot as possible.

Then there is the penetration issue that is lessened by the use of hollow points, but that's a secondary consideration - important, but secondary.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:30:21 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Rifleguy81:
NJ is a horrible example.

You can't even pump your own gas there



Keep in mind this is GD and my initial response is GDish.

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that's why I said my sarcasm meter was not working.

NJ is a good example as they are trying to limit the effectiveness of handguns. If HP ammo was only due to lawyers, they'd be pushing it.
Ironically, they are putting more people at risk but it is NJ.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:32:32 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Mikhail_86:
LOL just carry G2R Rip rounds and youll be set
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Beat me to it.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:32:53 PM EST
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Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:34:17 PM EST

Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:35:21 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Dampwaffles:


These aren't typical FMJs, though. If you watched the video, you'd see that these Underwood bullets outperformed a 124-grain Federal HST - widely regarded as one of the best JHPs. Not only was the wound track wider, but it was much longer as well.
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Originally Posted By Dampwaffles:
Originally Posted By arizona_andy:
A quality JHP will reliably create a larger wound channel compared to an FMJ, and will give you all the penetration that you need. I believe that JHPs are overall a better choice than FMJs (especially for 9mm). The 9mm HST and Ranger-T will often expand to 0.75"+, and that's a massive increase compared to the size of the bullet as it's leaving the barrel (0.355").

Perhaps this is an "interesting" bullet design, but I think I'll stick with the tried-and-true Winchester Ranger-T series (the 127gr +P+ RA9TA is my personal fav).


These aren't typical FMJs, though. If you watched the video, you'd see that these Underwood bullets outperformed a 124-grain Federal HST - widely regarded as one of the best JHPs. Not only was the wound track wider, but it was much longer as well.



There are no studies linking the diameter of the "wound track" in ballistic gel to human soft tissue. The only one in existence is about penetration. And longer wound tracks are not necessarily desirable. Over penetration is one of the main reasons JHPs are preferred to FMJ.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:36:23 PM EST
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Originally Posted By dorobuta:



two things: tissue destruction and blood loss.
You may not get an instant stop, but more damage usually means you will get a stop at some point. I want as much damage from each shot as possible.

Then there is the penetration issue that is lessened by the use of hollow points, but that's a secondary consideration - important, but secondary.
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Originally Posted By dorobuta:
Originally Posted By Rifleguy81:
If CNS shots are the only guaranteed way of stopping a target, what difference does it make if its a hollow point or FMJ.

Also, I should clarify Im talking about handgun rounds in a non-LEO defensive role.



two things: tissue destruction and blood loss.
You may not get an instant stop, but more damage usually means you will get a stop at some point. I want as much damage from each shot as possible.

Then there is the penetration issue that is lessened by the use of hollow points, but that's a secondary consideration - important, but secondary.



Ill see your blood loss and raise you:

Lets pretend your .356 HP expands to .430 with one entry hole

Ill say the .356 FMJ completely penetrates the target now making two .356 holes...

.712 worth of leaks > .430 worth of leaks....

Tissue destruction, well, not as prevalent in service caliber handgun rounds as it is in rifle calibers. Sure there is temporary wound cavity, still not great with common handgun rounds....




FWIW- I carry 124 gr Gold dots in my pistol. Im simply playing devils advocate for the sake of GD, please, don't let anyones FEELS get hurt.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:36:29 PM EST
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Originally Posted By pavlovwolf:
OP, you can use something like the Hornaday XTPs, which are actually hunting rounds originally, and designed to penetrate more than they are to open big. They don't open as large as some, will penetrate deeper than most, but still, my average on animals is about .750 diameter, from a .45acp 230gr.
View Quote


I opted for XTPs in 10mm, main use would be hogs. I reckon they'd work alright on humans too.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:38:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:38:51 PM EST
This is my carry round in my 10mm , fuck them and everyone around them
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:41:13 PM EST
I watched the video, and I think he's confusing temporary cavity and permanent cavity, pointing to the TC and calling it PC. Regardless, the resultant total cavity is simply going to be proportional to the kinetic energy of each round - if this 90 grain bullet has more KE than the HST, then it is going to leave behind a larger cavity volume. But, not all cavity is created equal. PC is, in general, going to be more effective than TC. And, I think the HST is going to produce more PC.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:42:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2015 7:43:48 PM EST by VA-BlkRifle]
mmm 10mm, not this pic, but wicked anyway
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:48:52 PM EST
The Underwood I have are 140 Gr and say 1500 fps, will check the mv in the future, looks the same as the post above
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 7:55:53 PM EST
Black Talons or your dead every time
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