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Posted: 9/1/2015 9:01:29 PM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 9/1/2015 9:02:20 PM EDT
[#2]
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mmm 10mm, not this pic, but wicked anyway https://cdn6.bigcommerce.com/s-sihme6/products/954/images/492/newround1box20__24030.1416240844.1280.1280.jpg?c=2 It looks like a variation of the Devel bullet. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 9:04:03 PM EDT
[#3]
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I watched the video, and I think he's confusing temporary cavity and permanent cavity, pointing to the TC and calling it PC. Regardless, the resultant total cavity is simply going to be proportional to the kinetic energy of each round - if this 90 grain bullet has more KE than the HST, then it is going to leave behind a larger cavity volume. But, not all cavity is created equal. PC is, in general, going to be more effective than TC. And, I think the HST is going to produce more PC. no he is not...their is a much larger temporary cavity that you can see under high speed film. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 9:04:51 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: mmm 10mm, not this pic, but wicked anyway https://cdn6.bigcommerce.com/s-sihme6/products/954/images/492/newround1box20__24030.1416240844.1280.1280.jpg?c=2  |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 9:05:43 PM EDT
[#5]
permanent wound cavity from a 9mm round? Don't think so.
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Posted: 9/1/2015 9:08:47 PM EDT
[#6]
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Seems like snake oil..... |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 9:11:53 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote History |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 9:20:04 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Black Talons or your dead every time I coat my Black Talons with Teflon. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 9:20:38 PM EDT
[#9]
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Black Talons or your dead every time Leave my dead out of this. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 9:20:48 PM EDT
[#10]
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If CNS shots are the only guaranteed way of stopping a target, what difference does it make if its a hollow point or FMJ. Also, I should clarify Im talking about handgun rounds in a non-LEO defensive role. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If lawyers and prosecutors did not exist, FMJ would be suitable for stopping bad guys. Hollow point bullets are designed to minimize the possibility of over penetration, the side benefit is that sometimes they get bigger..... Wrong If CNS shots are the only guaranteed way of stopping a target, what difference does it make if its a hollow point or FMJ. Also, I should clarify Im talking about handgun rounds in a non-LEO defensive role. Except, they're not. Bullets are screwy. I've personally seen a person take a 9mm in the forehead and go home from the hospital the next morning. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 9:22:51 PM EDT
[#11]
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I noticed that too. My guess is tactical black face, courtesy of Photoshop. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Is the dude on the right in black face? Or is that tactical shoe polish? I noticed that too. My guess is tactical black face, courtesy of Photoshop. Must be 'cuz they neglected his hands. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 9:22:56 PM EDT
[#12]
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no he is not...their is a much larger temporary cavity that you can see under high speed film. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I watched the video, and I think he's confusing temporary cavity and permanent cavity, pointing to the TC and calling it PC. Regardless, the resultant total cavity is simply going to be proportional to the kinetic energy of each round - if this 90 grain bullet has more KE than the HST, then it is going to leave behind a larger cavity volume. But, not all cavity is created equal. PC is, in general, going to be more effective than TC. And, I think the HST is going to produce more PC. no he is not...their is a much larger temporary cavity that you can see under high speed film. Right, the TC is larger ... but he points to it and calls it PC. The PC for both bullets is about the same diameter as the expanded round, and barely visible in the video. The wave expansion in high speed videos, while undeniably temporary, isn't the forensics TC. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 9:27:48 PM EDT
[#13]
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I know this  and when I say proper throat and ramp job I am talking about when the gun is put together...
but a lot of companies have dropped that ball on this... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I bet that shit would bind up a 1911 like no ones business a proper ramp and throat job on a 1911 and it can feed empty brass...... My cheap little RIA does that. Any in spec and correctly functioning 1911 will, ,and you don't need any ramp or throat work. Good mags and a correctly tuned extractor, along with the proper weight recoil and hammer spring is all that is needed. The empty case test is actually an original feeding test procedure done since the guns were first produced. I know this and when I say proper throat and ramp job I am talking about when the gun is put together...
but a lot of companies have dropped that ball on this... Cool Breeze. I hear so many people immediately say " I'mma gonna polish that thar ramp and throat it and then it'll feed damn nar anythang." And then they proceed to screw up a gun by fucking up the angle on the gap that probably was fine to start with, maybe they had old common GI mags that were not designed for hollowpoints to start with and were having issues, when a simple modern magazine would have fixed it. I've seen a lot of "bad" 1911s that were perfectly fine, until the new owner proceeded to do this, or had his cousin that was an armorer in the special forces back in Nam do it when the gun was a known great shooter. Had a friend sell one that he'd put thousands of rounds through, all HP and lead mostly, never a hiccup, and the guy mention that. He told him not to do it, but the guy did it, and then it wouldn't run and he wanted his money back. Sorry Bubba. Hell, I've heard people buying a new one in a gun store tell the shop that they were going to have all that done when it was new and they never fired it. My normal dealer has been in business his whole adult life, and just cringes when they say that. He's learned that you can't reason with most, so his standard response is, " Well, if it fail to function after you've worked on it, it will be out of warranty, and I won't send it back, or refund your money. Mags, extractor, ammo, send it to the factory, but if you do that, I can't stand behind it." Nothing personal, and I figured you weren't Bubba, but just put that out there for any that might be Bubba's cousins. They're out there, and they're on here too. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 9:31:06 PM EDT
[#14]
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My sarcasm meter is perhaps broken, given that hollow points have been around a long, long time, and exist for a very good reasons, and none of them have to do with lawyers or prosecutors. a serious clue that you are wrong - they're illegal in NJ. if your premise was accurate, they would not be illegal there. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If lawyers and prosecutors did not exist, FMJ would be suitable for stopping bad guys. Hollow point bullets are designed to minimize the possibility of over penetration, the side benefit is that sometimes they get bigger..... My sarcasm meter is perhaps broken, given that hollow points have been around a long, long time, and exist for a very good reasons, and none of them have to do with lawyers or prosecutors. a serious clue that you are wrong - they're illegal in NJ. if your premise was accurate, they would not be illegal there. Hollowpoints are not illegal in NJ. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 9:33:24 PM EDT
[#15]
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For the TL;DW crowd: Lehigh Defense came out with a bullet design which carves out 4 channels into the bullet's face in the shape of a plus sign in order to create a solid copper FMJ bullet that produces a much larger wound channel than other typical round-nosed FMJ bullets. This has resulted in a non-expanding bullet that penetrates deeper than JHPs while creating a wider and deeper wound channel than both standard FMJs and JHPs. One of the possible downsides is that they tend to "overpenetrate" (if you go by the FBI's standard penetration depth of 12 to 18 inches) since the bullets in the test penetrated between 17 and 22 inches - which MAC claimed is a superior penetration range, in his opinion, to the FBI standard. He apparently came to that conclusion based on his experience with shooting a recently killed hog in the shoulder and observing that the bullet didn't penetrate through the other side of the hog - which, in his mind, was proof that the 12 to 18 inch FBI penetration requirement was bogus. Part 1 of 2. From a physics point of view this doesn't make sense. Momentum (mass x velocity) is a measure of how much tissue can be crushed. A bullet with a given momentum has the potential to crush a certain amount of tissue. If this bullet produces a much larger wound channel, then it will penetrate less then a bullet with the smae momentum that makes a smaller wound channel. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 9:40:28 PM EDT
[#16]
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two things: tissue destruction and blood loss. You may not get an instant stop, but more damage usually means you will get a stop at some point. I want as much damage from each shot as possible. Then there is the penetration issue that is lessened by the use of hollow points, but that's a secondary consideration - important, but secondary. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If CNS shots are the only guaranteed way of stopping a target, what difference does it make if its a hollow point or FMJ. Also, I should clarify Im talking about handgun rounds in a non-LEO defensive role. two things: tissue destruction and blood loss. You may not get an instant stop, but more damage usually means you will get a stop at some point. I want as much damage from each shot as possible. Then there is the penetration issue that is lessened by the use of hollow points, but that's a secondary consideration - important, but secondary. There is also a higher probability of striking a vital organ with the larger diameter bullet. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 9:41:03 PM EDT
[#17]
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Except, they're not. Bullets are screwy. I've personally seen a person take a 9mm in the forehead and go home from the hospital the next morning. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If lawyers and prosecutors did not exist, FMJ would be suitable for stopping bad guys. Hollow point bullets are designed to minimize the possibility of over penetration, the side benefit is that sometimes they get bigger..... Wrong If CNS shots are the only guaranteed way of stopping a target, what difference does it make if its a hollow point or FMJ. Also, I should clarify Im talking about handgun rounds in a non-LEO defensive role. Except, they're not. Bullets are screwy. I've personally seen a person take a 9mm in the forehead and go home from the hospital the next morning. I have a friend, or had a friend ( lost touch 20 years ago ), named bullet. He broke up with his girlfriend, she started slapping him, so he pushed her away. She pulled out a .22 pistol and shot him right in the damn forehead. They rushed him to the hospital and the bullet didn't penetrate. Sort of went in at an angle on the side of the forehead but stuck in there. They didn't remove it all for some reason. So, we named him Bullet. He got back with her, and they got married, had kids, and last I heard were still together, without any shootings. lol I also have a buddy named Biscuit, sort of for the same reason, physical appearance ( looked like a biscuit ),but, he looked like Droopy in the face, so we called him that too. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 9:43:07 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From a physics point of view this doesn't make sense. Momentum (mass x velocity) is a measure of how much tissue can be crushed. A bullet with a given momentum has the potential to crush a certain amount of tissue. If this bullet produces a much larger wound channel, then it will penetrate less then a bullet with the smae momentum that makes a smaller wound channel. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For the TL;DW crowd: Lehigh Defense came out with a bullet design which carves out 4 channels into the bullet's face in the shape of a plus sign in order to create a solid copper FMJ bullet that produces a much larger wound channel than other typical round-nosed FMJ bullets. This has resulted in a non-expanding bullet that penetrates deeper than JHPs while creating a wider and deeper wound channel than both standard FMJs and JHPs. One of the possible downsides is that they tend to "overpenetrate" (if you go by the FBI's standard penetration depth of 12 to 18 inches) since the bullets in the test penetrated between 17 and 22 inches - which MAC claimed is a superior penetration range, in his opinion, to the FBI standard. He apparently came to that conclusion based on his experience with shooting a recently killed hog in the shoulder and observing that the bullet didn't penetrate through the other side of the hog - which, in his mind, was proof that the 12 to 18 inch FBI penetration requirement was bogus. Part 1 of 2. From a physics point of view this doesn't make sense. Momentum (mass x velocity) is a measure of how much tissue can be crushed. A bullet with a given momentum has the potential to crush a certain amount of tissue. If this bullet produces a much larger wound channel, then it will penetrate less then a bullet with the smae momentum that makes a smaller wound channel. The wound cavities correlate to kinetic energy (1/2 x mass x velocity^2), not momentum. This 90 grain bullet has 30% more kinetic energy than the heavier HST, thus the larger temporary cavity. Permanent cavity, however, probably goes to the HST, but I didn't stick around that long in the video. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 9:43:43 PM EDT
[#19]
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When I researched this question pretty extensively (a long time ago) I read that only CNS hits or significant skeletal damage reliably put a BG down. I concluded from what I read that FMJ is as good as HP because FMJ's presumptively greater penetration increases the likelihood of a CNS/skeletal hit. In any event, my EDC is HP. YMMV Most people killed by bullets die from blood loss. Anyway, FMJ may not be good for CNS since they are more likely to glance off a skull. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 9:45:36 PM EDT
[#20]
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The wound cavities correlate to kinetic energy (1/2 x mass x velocity^2), not momentum. This 90 grain bullet has 30% more kinetic energy than the heavier HST, thus the larger temporary cavity. Permanent cavity, however, probably goes to the HST, but I didn't stick around that long in the video. I'm not talking about temp cavity, which I don't care about since it doesn't matter. Tissue crushed is proportial to momentum, not KE. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 9:55:41 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: no  No. I will take 147 grain for mine, thank you. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 10:10:00 PM EDT
[#22]
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I'm not talking about temp cavity, which I don't care about since it doesn't matter. Tissue crushed is proportial to momentum, not KE. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The wound cavities correlate to kinetic energy (1/2 x mass x velocity^2), not momentum. This 90 grain bullet has 30% more kinetic energy than the heavier HST, thus the larger temporary cavity. Permanent cavity, however, probably goes to the HST, but I didn't stick around that long in the video. I'm not talking about temp cavity, which I don't care about since it doesn't matter. Tissue crushed is proportial to momentum, not KE. But, it isn't. If you go to the Fackler figures, and integrate the volumes, the momentum correlation doesn't hold. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 10:10:59 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From a physics point of view this doesn't make sense. Momentum (mass x velocity) is a measure of how much tissue can be crushed. A bullet with a given momentum has the potential to crush a certain amount of tissue. If this bullet produces a much larger wound channel, then it will penetrate less then a bullet with the smae momentum that makes a smaller wound channel. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: For the TL;DW crowd: Lehigh Defense came out with a bullet design which carves out 4 channels into the bullet's face in the shape of a plus sign in order to create a solid copper FMJ bullet that produces a much larger wound channel than other typical round-nosed FMJ bullets. This has resulted in a non-expanding bullet that penetrates deeper than JHPs while creating a wider and deeper wound channel than both standard FMJs and JHPs. One of the possible downsides is that they tend to "overpenetrate" (if you go by the FBI's standard penetration depth of 12 to 18 inches) since the bullets in the test penetrated between 17 and 22 inches - which MAC claimed is a superior penetration range, in his opinion, to the FBI standard. He apparently came to that conclusion based on his experience with shooting a recently killed hog in the shoulder and observing that the bullet didn't penetrate through the other side of the hog - which, in his mind, was proof that the 12 to 18 inch FBI penetration requirement was bogus. Part 1 of 2. From a physics point of view this doesn't make sense. Momentum (mass x velocity) is a measure of how much tissue can be crushed. A bullet with a given momentum has the potential to crush a certain amount of tissue. If this bullet produces a much larger wound channel, then it will penetrate less then a bullet with the smae momentum that makes a smaller wound channel. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 10:15:21 PM EDT
[#24]
I always thought that the wound channel left in the ballistic gel was the permanent cavity. I mean, that's just common sense since the ballistic gel is permanently damaged.
Regardless, I don't see how people could be arguing that hollow points create larger permanent wound cavities than these Underwood Xtreme Defenders since they clearly don't. These bullets are creating wider and longer wound channels than any other bullet that I've ever seen. It's not even close. They''re at least twice as large as the wound channels created by the best performing JHPs - mostly due to the wound channel being so much longer. I see that most people are automatically dismissing this as a gimmick even though the gel tests have solidly proven that these bullets create superior wound channels than JHPs. The only things that I'm really worried about are reliability problems and the possibility of overpenetration. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 10:16:06 PM EDT
[#25]
wth, he's measuring the temp cavity and calling it the permanent cavity. the permanent cavity can only be the size of the bullet
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Posted: 9/1/2015 10:20:00 PM EDT
[#26]
Damp, how old are you? and how long have you been around fire arms? tell me this and ill finish my answer.
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Posted: 9/1/2015 10:24:35 PM EDT
[#27]
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90 grains ? No. I will take 147 grain for mine, thank you. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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no I will take 147 grain for mine, thank you. I think the reason why they went with such a light bullet is to deal with the extreme overpenetration problem that the Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrators were known to have. By making the bullet lighter and opening up the flutes, it looks like Underwood brought the penetration depth closer to the FBI standard of 12 to 18 inches. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 10:26:44 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I always thought that the wound channel left in the ballistic gel was the permanent cavity. I mean, that's just common sense since the ballistic gel is permanently damaged. Regardless, I don't see how people could be arguing that hollow points create larger permanent wound cavities than these Underwood Xtreme Defenders since they clearly don't. These bullets are creating wider and longer wound channels than any other bullet that I've ever seen. It's not even close. They''re at least twice as large as the wound channels created by the best performing JHPs - mostly due to the wound channel being so much longer. I see that most people are automatically dismissing this as a gimmick even though the gel tests have solidly proven that these bullets create superior wound channels than JHPs. The only things that I'm really worried about are reliability problems and the possibility of overpenetration. there are 2 parts to a wound profile (the temp stretch cavity and the permanent cavity)  the temp stretch cavity from a handgun round (even though it may look impressive in gel) does not add to its wounding ability because of the low amounts of energy. with rifle rounds though, if the temp stretch cavity come into contact with a non-elastic organ, it can result in severe damage to it the permanent cavity is that which actually comes into contact with the bullet |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 10:28:02 PM EDT
[#29]
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Posted: 9/1/2015 10:28:15 PM EDT
[#30]
ETA: It's not that there is no innovation to be had in the ammunition world; but the claims to proven performance ratio is kinda skewed, so the smart money sticks with what is known to work. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 10:30:35 PM EDT
[#31]
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I think the reason why they went with such a light bullet is to deal with the extreme overpenetration problem that the Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrators were known to have. By making the bullet lighter and opening up the flutes, they brought the penetration depth closer to the FBI standard of 12 to 18 inches. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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no I will take 147 grain for mine, thank you. I think the reason why they went with such a light bullet is to deal with the extreme overpenetration problem that the Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrators were known to have. By making the bullet lighter and opening up the flutes, they brought the penetration depth closer to the FBI standard of 12 to 18 inches. nope guess again.. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 10:31:47 PM EDT
[#32]
My good chums, a HST 146 gn 9mm projectile upon entering the body gives your the effective diameter of a 12mm+ diameter projectile. This creates larger local trama, decreases over penetration, and allows the shooter to enjoy the benefits of a higher capacity handgun. You must remember that outside of a CNS shot a handgun caliber relies on blood loss for incapacitating the shootee. That being said positive innovations is firearms technology tend to catch on quickly and of the rounds OP is asking about were such an innovation it would have been adopted at a high level.
Cheerio |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 10:33:07 PM EDT
[#33]
Ok what they have made is a new version of the old THV from the 80's It works on a reverse ogive principle. the plus is to allow easier feeding that the old THV's had a issue with.
yes these were the rounds that got the whole OMG cop killer AP bullets we must ban going in the 80's.. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 10:33:20 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I always thought that the wound channel left in the ballistic gel was the permanent cavity. I mean, that's just common sense since the ballistic gel is permanently damaged. Regardless, I don't see how people could be arguing that hollow points create larger permanent wound cavities than these Underwood Xtreme Defenders since they clearly don't. These bullets are creating wider and longer wound channels than any other bullet that I've ever seen. It's not even close. They''re at least twice as large as the wound channels created by the best performing JHPs - mostly due to the wound channel being so much longer. I see that most people are automatically dismissing this as a gimmick even though the gel tests have solidly proven that these bullets create superior wound channels than JHPs. The only thing that I'm really worried about is reliability problems and the possibility of overpenetration. But which bullet technology creates larger wound channels isn't really up for debate. The Xtreme Defenders won that competition. For pistol rounds, what is seen in ballistic gelatin is almost entirely temporary cavity - the pressure wave travels through the whole block, but it only exceeds the shear limit of the gel within the TC. Beyond the cracks, the shear limit was not exceeded. The temporary cavity is where mass temporarily displaces, but returns to position after the block comes to rest. The permanent cavity is where mass is permanently displaced, and permanently missing after the gelatin stopped moving. The TC/PC distinction is probably best illustrated in the Fackler diagrams of pig tissue, but can also be seen in ballistic gelatin when dyes are applied. The shear limits of ballistic gelatin are roughly comparable to where capillaries in real tissue are damaged after gunshot wounds. Fackler was very meticulous in creating cross sections of the tissue an noting the extent of visible, post mortem tissue damage. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 10:37:42 PM EDT
[#35]
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wth, he's measuring the temp cavity and calling it the permanent cavity. the permanent cavity can only be the size of the bullet Ok, now I don't feel so crazy. I thought that's what he said, and I'm glad others picked up on that, too. [Not to nit pick, but PC isn't necessarily the diameter of the bullet. There's a drag aspect to it. Just recall WC vs FMJ wound channels.] |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 10:42:14 PM EDT
[#36]
OP,
please read this: http://ar15.com/ammo/project/Fackler_Articles/wounding_patterns_military_rifles.pdf it's about rifle rounds though, so dont let that throw you |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 10:45:55 PM EDT
[#37]
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there are 2 parts to a wound profile (the temp stretch cavity and the permanent cavity) the temp stretch cavity from a handgun round (even though it may look impressive in gel) does not add to its wounding ability because of the low amounts of energy. with rifle rounds though, if the temp stretch cavity come into contact with a non-elastic organ, it can result in severe damage to it the permanent cavity is that which actually comes into contact with the bullet Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I always thought that the wound channel left in the ballistic gel was the permanent cavity. I mean, that's just common sense since the ballistic gel is permanently damaged. Regardless, I don't see how people could be arguing that hollow points create larger permanent wound cavities than these Underwood Xtreme Defenders since they clearly don't. These bullets are creating wider and longer wound channels than any other bullet that I've ever seen. It's not even close. They''re at least twice as large as the wound channels created by the best performing JHPs - mostly due to the wound channel being so much longer. I see that most people are automatically dismissing this as a gimmick even though the gel tests have solidly proven that these bullets create superior wound channels than JHPs. The only things that I'm really worried about are reliability problems and the possibility of overpenetration. there are 2 parts to a wound profile (the temp stretch cavity and the permanent cavity) the temp stretch cavity from a handgun round (even though it may look impressive in gel) does not add to its wounding ability because of the low amounts of energy. with rifle rounds though, if the temp stretch cavity come into contact with a non-elastic organ, it can result in severe damage to it the permanent cavity is that which actually comes into contact with the bullet What about the spiraling tears left in the gel that are typically a couple of inches in diameter? That's also considered to be part of the permanent wound channel, right? I have to imagine that those same types of spiraling tears would be left in the human body, and so they shouldn't be dismissed as being irrelevant. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 10:56:10 PM EDT
[#38]
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What about the spiraling tears left in the gel that are typically a couple of inches in diameter? That's also considered be part of the permanent wound channel, right? I have to imagine that those same types of spiraling tears would be left in the human body, and so they shouldn't be dismissed as being irrelevant. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I always thought that the wound channel left in the ballistic gel was the permanent cavity. I mean, that's just common sense since the ballistic gel is permanently damaged. Regardless, I don't see how people could be arguing that hollow points create larger permanent wound cavities than these Underwood Xtreme Defenders since they clearly don't. These bullets are creating wider and longer wound channels than any other bullet that I've ever seen. It's not even close. They''re at least twice as large as the wound channels created by the best performing JHPs - mostly due to the wound channel being so much longer. I see that most people are automatically dismissing this as a gimmick even though the gel tests have solidly proven that these bullets create superior wound channels than JHPs. The only things that I'm really worried about are reliability problems and the possibility of overpenetration. there are 2 parts to a wound profile (the temp stretch cavity and the permanent cavity) the temp stretch cavity from a handgun round (even though it may look impressive in gel) does not add to its wounding ability because of the low amounts of energy. with rifle rounds though, if the temp stretch cavity come into contact with a non-elastic organ, it can result in severe damage to it the permanent cavity is that which actually comes into contact with the bullet What about the spiraling tears left in the gel that are typically a couple of inches in diameter? That's also considered be part of the permanent wound channel, right? I have to imagine that those same types of spiraling tears would be left in the human body, and so they shouldn't be dismissed as being irrelevant. They would be hardly noticeable in a post mortem, because no post mortem on a human would ever be done in the morbidly detailed manner that Fackler used in the course of his documentation. TC is a fickle beast. Most often, damage in the TC isn't enough to incapacitate, but sometimes the damage in the TC is enough to be fatal. It's fickle. I had a 1400 ft-lb impact that left no PC, only TC displacement, but it was enough to perforate my aorta. ETA: When you get to energy equal to or greater than 44 magnum, the pressure in the TC can be high enough to fracture bone. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 10:56:20 PM EDT
[#39]
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My good chums, a HST 146 gn 9mm projectile upon entering the body gives your the effective diameter of a 12mm+ diameter projectile. This creates larger local trama, decreases over penetration, and allows the shooter to enjoy the benefits of a higher capacity handgun. You must remember that outside of a CNS shot a handgun caliber relies on blood loss for incapacitating the shootee. That being said positive innovations is firearms technology tend to catch on quickly and of the rounds OP is asking about were such an innovation it would have been adopted at a high level. Cheerio They were just released. I wouldn't be surprised if government agencies took a serious look at them and adopted them, especially since they'll probably do great with barrier penetration like car glass. Like I stated before, the only possible downsides that I can think of are reliability problems and overpenetration. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 11:37:33 PM EDT
[#40]
I just looked it up. The spiraling tears left in ballistic gel are indeed considered to be part of the permanent wound channel. So, these Underwood Xtreme Defenders are creating permanent wound channels that are over twice as wide and almost twice as long as the best performing hollow points. Why am I the only person in this thread that's excited about this new advancement in bullet technology?
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Posted: 9/1/2015 11:41:35 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Same snake oil from a few years ago. Pushing lightweight bullets at extremely high pressures is nothing new. It will wreck barrels and cause premature wear and tear. Bonded bullets are the best you'll get right now until we come up with something "in the 40 watt range" Yeah, I'm sticking with my Federal HST's. |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 11:46:35 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I just looked it up. The spiraling tears left in ballistic gel are indeed considered to be part of the permanent wound channel. So, these Underwood Xtreme Defenders are creating permanent wound channels that are over twice as wide and almost twice as long as the best performing hollow points. Why am I the only person in this thread that's excited about this new advancement in bullet technology? no. just no. look up some youtube videos of HSTs and Ranger-Ts. you'll see the same spiraling in the temp cavities there too how old are you? how long have you been shooting? |
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Posted: 9/1/2015 11:57:14 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just looked it up. The spiraling tears left in ballistic gel are indeed considered to be part of the permanent wound channel. So, these Underwood Xtreme Defenders are creating permanent wound channels that are over twice as wide and almost twice as long as the best performing hollow points. Why am I the only person in this thread that's excited about this new advancement in bullet technology? It kind of needs to be proven to dead people faster than FMJ or JHP or whatnot before it's an actual 'advancement', no? |
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Posted: 9/2/2015 5:41:14 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Right, the TC is larger ... but he points to it and calls it PC. The PC for both bullets is about the same diameter as the expanded round, and barely visible in the video. The wave expansion in high speed videos, while undeniably temporary, isn't the forensics TC. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I watched the video, and I think he's confusing temporary cavity and permanent cavity, pointing to the TC and calling it PC. Regardless, the resultant total cavity is simply going to be proportional to the kinetic energy of each round - if this 90 grain bullet has more KE than the HST, then it is going to leave behind a larger cavity volume. But, not all cavity is created equal. PC is, in general, going to be more effective than TC. And, I think the HST is going to produce more PC. no he is not...their is a much larger temporary cavity that you can see under high speed film. Right, the TC is larger ... but he points to it and calls it PC. The PC for both bullets is about the same diameter as the expanded round, and barely visible in the video. The wave expansion in high speed videos, while undeniably temporary, isn't the forensics TC. the TC is just that Temporary it goes away what is left in the gelatin is the PC... the drawing that is posted above shows three cavities the TC, the PC, and the straight line diameter hole gelatin only shows the straight line and the PC |
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Posted: 9/2/2015 8:02:00 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
the TC is just that Temporary it goes away what is left in the gelatin is the PC... the drawing that is posted above shows three cavities the TC, the PC, and the straight line diameter hole gelatin only shows the straight line and the PC Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I watched the video, and I think he's confusing temporary cavity and permanent cavity, pointing to the TC and calling it PC. Regardless, the resultant total cavity is simply going to be proportional to the kinetic energy of each round - if this 90 grain bullet has more KE than the HST, then it is going to leave behind a larger cavity volume. But, not all cavity is created equal. PC is, in general, going to be more effective than TC. And, I think the HST is going to produce more PC. no he is not...their is a much larger temporary cavity that you can see under high speed film. Right, the TC is larger ... but he points to it and calls it PC. The PC for both bullets is about the same diameter as the expanded round, and barely visible in the video. The wave expansion in high speed videos, while undeniably temporary, isn't the forensics TC. the TC is just that Temporary it goes away what is left in the gelatin is the PC... the drawing that is posted above shows three cavities the TC, the PC, and the straight line diameter hole gelatin only shows the straight line and the PC AFAIK, that is not correct. Gelatin can absolutely show temporary and permanent cavities. 
The only way a handgun produces a permanent cavity at normal handgun velocities is via tissue being crushed by the movement of the projectile through the medium. Handguns poke holes. The size of the hole is determined solely by the diameter of the projectile as it moves through the target. |
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Posted: 9/2/2015 8:02:25 PM EDT
[#46]
I shoot whatever my gun feeds reliably.
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