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Posted: 7/17/2002 10:27:51 AM EST
I received the following via a reliable source. I also called Insights Training Center, where [url=www.insightstraining.com/ps/instructors/bios.htm]John Holschen[/url] now works, and confirmed that he actually wrote it, which he did. I cleaned up the formatting, and thought you folks would find it interesting. Since it's fairly long, I'll have to post it in several parts on this thread. The commentary at the bottom is by Mike Hargreaves, a former member of the Canadian SAS. Take it for what it's worth. ------------------------------------------------ I recently had the opportunity to conduct a detailed review of a captured Al Qaeda training tape. My impressions: The tape was apparently produced for Al Qaeda internal use and did not appear to be an external propaganda production. The tape showed Al Qaeda operatives engaging in a number of training exercises including small arms firing ranges, live-fire room entry, and numerous mixed live-fire/role-player type of scenarios. Scenarios included: Assassinations, Kidnappings, Bombings, and Small unit raids on various types of targets. The training depicted in these scenarios was clearly for export according to an intelligence expert that commented on the tape. "None of these training scenarios depicts the type of fighting that Al Qaeda engages in within Afghanistan." Detailed planning, diagramming and walk-throughs followed by live-fire exercises were the norm. There were a lot of role playing, scenario type of interactions. The role players made aggressive moves simulating resistance at various points throughout the scenarios. All such resistance was met with immediate and brutal countermeasures by the terrorists. There was no presumed compliance on the part of the terrorists. The effort to produce detail and realism in training was impressive. These people are using extremely effective training methods!
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 10:29:07 AM EST
The following points were seen REPEATEDLY and ROUTINELY throughout the training exercises: 1. Use of standard military small unit tactics with multiple elements. (Assault, Security and Support elements) 2. Coordination with sub-elements via hand-held FM radios. 3. Use of pick-up trucks by the assault element to conduct raids/assassinations (shooters concealed in bed of truck). 4. Use of Motorcycles by the security element (as well as in the historical role as a shooting platform for drive by shootings/assassinations). 5. Use of explosives upon withdrawal from the objective. 6. Use of vehicle horn to signal withdrawal (and initiation of explosives). 7. Detailed planning and rehearsal of all actions. 8. Exercise of prisoner handling procedures. >From initial contact, to search and control, to execution of prisoners. Role players could be heard begging not to be killed IN ENGLISH. Terrorists practiced commands in English also. 9. Multiple man room entries. Typically one or two, 2-man teams that assumed a back to back position near the center of the room. 10. Distraction devices used prior to room entry. Fuse lit devices (improvised?) 11. Multiple breach points into structures and into individual rooms. 12. All scenarios were practiced live-fire, including those that involved role players. Paper targets and role players were interspersed in the same scenarios. (The terrorists showed good muzzle awareness and control.)
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 10:29:53 AM EST
The weapons handling was NOT haphazard. All terrorist operatives carried and fired their weapons using the same techniques. Some specific weapons handling idiosyncrasies are: 1. Handguns were carried in high ready. 2. Long guns (AK variants) were carried and fired rotated 90 degrees (ejection port up). Specific scenarios included: 1. Targeting of law enforcement officers in ambush/assassinations. Faked disabled vehicle with shooters concealed in trunk of car or bed of truck. When officer stops his vehicle behind "disabled vehicle" assault is initiated by driver blowing horn. Target was first engaged with rifle fire from the vehicle, terrorists then debussed to administer "coup de grace" at close range. An explosive device was thrown into the LE vehicle on exfiltration. This was one of a number of scenarios that were shown first as a diagram and explanation, then progressing to dry fire walk through and finally to a live-fire exercise. Target location was shown as a 6 lane divided highway with the terrorist vehicle located just prior to the exit/cloverleaf (to allow multiple exfiltration routes and security overview). There aren't any such highways in Afghanistan and damn few in the Middle East. In one iteration of this scenario the security/overwatch element was exercised firing on possible responding LEOs. 2. Residential assassination. Innocuous looking person (weapon concealed) knocks on door of residence. Stands in view of peephole and answers question from resident through closed door. When resident opens door terrorist draws and fires, emptying weapon into victim. 3. Assassination on golf course. Target was on the green (at the pin/flag). A Rocket Propelled Grenade (RPG) was fired at a vehicle adjacent to the green (VIP security element?) to initiate the hit. Target was then engaged with rifle fire. 4. Two and four-man live-fire room entry (2-man back to back technique) with target discrimination (shoot/no shoot targets). 5. Raid on compound (Kidnapping). One person taken. Initiated with RPG. Initiation was when Guard Shack was taken out with grenades. Primary target building was engaged with RPG. Primary target building was entered through multiple breach points (through explosive breach of wall and through windows.) Exfiltration was by truck with motorcycle security element in overwatch positions. 6. Drive up kidnapping of target walking down the street. 7. Use of tunnels/storm drains/sewers for infiltration and exfiltration during raids. 8. Rappelling from roof of building to make entry on upper floors was shown on more than one occasion. 9. Motorcycle drive-by target practice. Shooter stands up on rear pegs and extends arms over driver. Excellent muzzle awareness and control. 10. Grenades thrown into second story windows by motorcycle drive-bys.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 10:30:35 AM EST
MULTIPLE SCENARIOS/EXERCISES involved raids on buildings with a large number of occupants (school or office building?) . These raids followed a standard pattern: 1. Covert/surreptitious entry into building and movement to initial points. (Rifles hidden on persons and in bags/cases carried into building.) 2. Initiation with extreme violence of action. Any resisters are shot. 3. Immediate positive control and search of prisoners. Any resisters, or anyone they don't like the look of, are shot. 4. Segregation of prisoners into manageable groups. (Explosives were displayed to gain psychological dominance over prisoners.) 5. Movement of selected prisoners in small groups to the roof where terrorists posture and make statements for the press/cameras. 6. Prisoners executed one-by-one in front of the press/cameras. 7. All scenarios involving prisoners ended in execution of the prisoners and none included a plan for exfiltration of the terrorists. They plan to kill the prisoners and to die in place. The major take home lesson here is that although the enemy is known to be seeking the ability and opportunity to use weapons of mass destruction and of an unconventional nature, such as hijacked airliners, they are also spending a lot of time training to carry out attacks the old-fashioned way. Attacks executed by small groups of dedicated personnel equipped with little more than small arms. There is information to the effect that the "perfect day" as seen by Al Qaeda would combine attacks designed to produce the maximum number of casualties with attacks that would give them the opportunity to get "face time" on the news channels to deliver their rhetoric. For maximum effect these attacks would take place nearly simultaneously at multiple geographically separate locations. We need to address, in training and in personal preparation, the differences between a typical criminal victimization and a terrorist incident in terms of early recognition and appropriate response. I.E. The typical bank robbery vs. finding yourself in the middle of a terrorist attack on a "financial institution" (as per the recent FBI warning). If you find yourself in the middle of one of these attacks, there will not be time for the SWAT team to intervene on your behalf. Compliance will buy you only a very little time. If you are identified as a potential problem to the terrorists you will be shot. (They are training to spot Law Enforcement, Security and Corrections Officers as well as armed citizens.) If, by feigned compliance, you make it through the first cut you can expect to be physically restrained and then controlled with threats to the rest of your group and to the other groups. "We will blow up the women and children in the next room if any of you do not do exactly as we say!" Your ultimate fate, if you do not resist, is to be ritually executed in front of the television cameras.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 10:31:58 AM EST
In my opinion the best time to act is most likely to be at the initiation of the attack. Once the terrorists are consolidating on the objective it will be very difficult to take effective action. You must plan on providing effective resistance at the first opportunity! Shoot, move and communicate. Seek cover, use your weapon as required. Attempt to acquire a better weapon system at the first opportunity (do you know how to place an AK into operation?). Keep in mind that before any terrorist action there are many opportunities to interrupt their cycle by detecting their pre-mission activities. This is where we all can be of assistance. Pay attention to what is going on around you as you go about your daily business. Investigate and report any unusual or suspicious activity that you observe (note vehicle make and model, license plates, personnel descriptions etc.) John Holschen Insights Training Center, Inc ---------------------------------------------- Please note in the attack on the kindergarten, the terminology, "gave chase, and killed him with gunshots." No one spoke of arrest, no one said "alleged" "focus" 100% focus, to kill, the only solution, give chase, running, firing whilst running, both hands up, gun bouncing, terrorist hit, turning, trying to fire back, falling, shooter continuing to shoot, terrorist on the ground, he is still being shot! The pistol was a Semi auto, must have been, probably a 9mm, the gun was in all probability emptied into the head of the terrorist, blood would be on the shoes and pant legs of this children's defender! America, are you up to this? No you are not! You are too bloody nice! Too soft!! These people know this!! This same scenario has been played before in Israel, many times, take it to the RANGE. Run, gun up, shoot as you approach targets strung out in line in front of the shooter, end with a ground target, a melon, a squash, whatever, shoot the gun dry, scream like a mad person, reload, seek out hidden targets! Weapon selection: Hicap magazines, 9mm, at least one spare magazine on belt, two better, night sights. Ammo: good hollow points in pistol, and first replacement Mag. Last Mag: of the three: mil. spec hardball. Holster: On belt concealed, always, in house, in office, in cafe, in church, always! You cannot drink to excess, ever again, you dress armed, you think armed, you go armed, always. Lose the love affair with "Big Bullets" you need lots of bullets, you need the lightest effective round, least possible recoil, hits count, misses with any calibre do not! Cancel the ban on hicap magazines, all concealed carry courses must have live fire, must teach shooting from chair, car, ladder, wherever you can be. GET READY AMERICA, OR GET DEAD. MIKE HARGREAVES
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 10:35:33 AM EST
Everyone got those SHTF kits ready? [sniper]
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 10:35:52 AM EST
I think it's a well put together report and it only confirms my beliefs. It's great to see it all in one place, and hopefully it will act as a wake-up call to some who desperately need it.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 10:39:51 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 10:41:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 10:51:51 AM EST
Thank's Jarhead_22, maybe this will open some eye's.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 10:56:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/17/2002 10:57:23 AM EST by ChrisLe]
Thanks..Kind of puts things into perspective. Is there an effective way for a police department to stop this type of blitz assault? Unfortunately, I think not....So the question begs, Where do we go from here?
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 11:02:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By BeauBeaux: Thank's Jarhead_22, maybe this will open some eye's.
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I hope you're right, BeauBeaux.
Originally Posted By ChrisLe: Thanks..Kind of puts things into perspective. Is there an effective way for a police department to stop this type of blitz assault? Unfortunately, I think not....So the question begs, Where do we go from here?
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You're right: without advance intel on the target and time of the attack, there's not much that police can do. It's up to everyone to take responsibility for the protection of themselves and those around them. "While you are resting, someone somewhere is training and when you meet him, you will lose." --Unknown Don't let it happen to you.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 11:08:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/17/2002 11:09:06 AM EST by ilikelegs]
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 11:09:22 AM EST
Thanks Jarhead.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 11:20:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/17/2002 11:23:45 AM EST by Jarhead_22]
Originally Posted By ilikelegs: So what would happen to us legally if we came upon something like this and we had our AR's and ammo in the trunk of our car and shot some of these terrorists ? Would the cops say thank you or would they arrest us ? I would start killing the terrorist's anyway regardless. But what about after its over ?
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In a situation where you have time to get to the trunk of your car and get your AR into service, I think you'd better stop to dial 911 before you take any other action. Alert the professionals at the first opportunity. If the terrorists started executing hostages and I had a clear shot and was confident in the zero on my rifle, I'd take the shot. But I wouldn't charge into a building with no intel. I'm not prepared to be "SWAT team to the world." The report addresses preparation for being in the targeted area when the assault begins. For that eventuality, you'd be able to access your concealed carry weapon at best, and then only if you acted with speed, surprise and violence of action at the first possible moment. Mr. Holschen addresses "gunning up" here:
Seek cover, use your weapon as required. Attempt to acquire a better weapon system at the first opportunity (do you know how to place an AK into operation?).
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I think that's most likely going to be the only opportunity you'd have to get a long gun and get it into the fight in one of the addressed scenarios. YMMV, of course. ***Edited to add: At that point, you're being attacked, and standard self-defense applies.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 11:24:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By DonR: Thanks Jarhead.
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[;)]
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 11:38:25 AM EST
Jarhead_22, you have mail.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 11:40:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/17/2002 12:26:13 PM EST by JIMBEAM]
[b]Attempt to acquire a better weapon system at the first opportunity (do you know how to place an AK into operation?).[/b] Yes I don't think one person could stop some of the attacks outlined in Jarheads post but I would rather die shooting, punching, kicking, biting, and scratching instead of be executed with my hands bound on the 5:00PM news.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 11:41:00 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 11:48:33 AM EST
One of the gun mags this month had a piece in it about how in WWI and (I think) WWII, the gov't called for civilian volunteers to help with patrols and such (watch the beaches at night, etc.) and how a similar call could be issued today to help watch or guard various facilities. I live not too terribly far from a nuclear power plant in SE Mass, and would gladly participate in such a thing. One would hope for a little additional training to go along with the responsibilities; my Army training was a looong time ago. If we could get lots of people directly involved with actively protecting this country from the terrorist bastards, then more people will be standing ready, if the horrible scenarios in that report come to pass.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 11:51:07 AM EST
Originally Posted By JIMBEAM: I don't think one person could stop some of the attacks outlined in Jarheads post but I would rather die shooting, punching, kicking, biting, and scratching instead of be executed with my hand bound on the 5:00PM news.
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Roger that, brother. You and me both. It reminds me of a story I heard on the news a year or so ago. An Israeli soldier had been kidnapped and was being held by Pallies in their part of the 'hood. The IDF react force geared up and went in after him. The kidnapped soldier ended up being murdered by his captors while the react team was assaulting their position. The kidnapped and murdered soldier's parents were very grateful to the IDF for keeping faith with their son, regardless of his death. I remember thinking at the time, "Way to go, IDF. I wouldn't care if I died when they came for me, [b]JUST COME FOR ME![/b]"
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 12:03:39 PM EST
Guys/Gals, Listen to Jarhead's sources. Get your CHL's. If you live in the 32 states where they have conceal and carry permits, just get it. Take your gun with you everywhere, and where you cannot take it legally, take something (ie knife, pepper spray, etc)! If you don't take it with you everywhere, there's no point in having it because you don't know when you'll need the gun. There are even legal ways to take your gun through the airport. Call the airport, and check the state laws where you are going. Many states even have reciprocal CHL laws. If you have challenges/issue with the CHL, email me or respond to this post. I may be able to help you to find a resolution to your challenge.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 12:21:56 PM EST
i put the original report into a text file for anyone that wants to easily print or copy. can be saved as a file or from the browser. [url]http://146.186.150.130/~me/aqtraining.txt[/url]
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 12:27:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: The weapons handling was NOT haphazard. All terrorist operatives carried and fired their weapons using the same techniques. Some specific weapons handling idiosyncrasies are: 1. Handguns were carried in high ready. 2. Long guns (AK variants) were carried and fired rotated 90 degrees (ejection port up).
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Can you say hOmEbOy?
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 12:43:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/17/2002 12:44:54 PM EST by USNA91]
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Originally Posted By JIMBEAM: I don't think one person could stop some of the attacks outlined in Jarheads post but I would rather die shooting, punching, kicking, biting, and scratching instead of be executed with my hand bound on the 5:00PM news.
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Roger that, brother. You and me both.
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Add me to the AMEN chorus on this one. I just can't wait to see the antis flip out should such a thing occur. Imagine them calling for total gun bans and no one, not even the police, showing up! Edited to add: Oh, yeah, and don't even THINK about using racial profiling! We might upset someone!
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 12:45:45 PM EST
What is the advantage of using the "homeboy carry" with an AK?
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 12:57:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By m193: What is the advantage of using the "homeboy carry" with an AK?
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In some CQB situations, such as firing from around cover, the weapon can malfunction if the ejection port is against the wall or whatever you're firing around.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:01:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
Originally Posted By m193: What is the advantage of using the "homeboy carry" with an AK?
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In some CQB situations, such as firing from around cover, the weapon can malfunction if the ejection port is against the wall or whatever you're firing around.
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I've always been told that firing any weapon with the ejection port up is an engraved invitation to a stovepipe jam. Any AK experts know why they would train to shoot this way?
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:04:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/17/2002 1:04:39 PM EST by Benjamin0001]
The only thing I can think of is that they fire that way to use the recoil to move the rifle around in the horizontal plane versus the vertical plane. But that is the only reason that I can even fathom that it might be useful to do so?? But I don't know for sure, I am just speculating. Ben
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:04:12 PM EST
Excellent post! Where can I get the whole article for printing, the sheeple I know at work have to see this!
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:10:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By NYC-M4: Excellent post! Where can I get the whole article for printing, the sheeple I know at work have to see this!
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At the bottom of the first page of this thread. eurotrash posted a link to the report saved as a .txt file.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:11:51 PM EST
I thought the "homeboy" style of firing was only useful in single handed Sub-machine weapons? About getting familiar with AK's, excellent idea!! To be honest I've never actually shoot an AK and I've been wanted to get familiar with one for some time now. I don't know anyone with a AK and I've never seen one at my range. All my buddies have AR's!! Anyone with a an AK in the Portland OR area want to meet up for a fun day at the range or the forest?
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:13:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By m193: What is the advantage of using the "homeboy carry" with an AK?
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The spent cases are not ejected into the face of the shooter to your right, but instead up and away. AK's are notorious for their forceful ejection and in an enclosed space someone is bound to get a hot empty on bare skin.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:14:43 PM EST
Eurotrash, that link doesn't appear to be active.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:18:53 PM EST
That text file link isnt working any other sources?
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:26:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By NYC-M4: That text file link isnt working any other sources?
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I have it saved as an MS Word .doc file. Email me at jarhead_22@hotmail.com and I'll reply with it.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 1:59:47 PM EST
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: I think it's a well put together report and it only confirms my beliefs. It's great to see it all in one place, and hopefully it will act as a wake-up call to some who desperately need it.
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Jarhead, Thanks for the great thread. Very informative.[beer]
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 2:27:04 PM EST
Excellent report Jarhead_22, my hats off to you, this is the kind of thing Americans and the free world need to have drilled into their complacent heads to put things into perspective and the reallity that it can/will happen again. Again good job.........
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 3:55:21 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 4:36:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
Originally Posted By m193: What is the advantage of using the "homeboy carry" with an AK?
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In some CQB situations, such as firing from around cover, the weapon can malfunction if the ejection port is against the wall or whatever you're firing around.
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Yep. I've seen it happen. It'll jam an AR up REAL good. Don't crowd cover.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 5:04:24 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 5:49:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By Hoplite:
Originally Posted By USNA91: Edited to add: Oh, yeah, and don't even THINK about using racial profiling! We might upset someone!
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My neighbors are shady as hell. Weve been watching them like a hawk. More info on them here [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=131614[/url] Today and yesterday, they were doing sometihng involving the foundation of their house and a jackhammer. All i know is my dogs were going apeshit and my basement wall,kitchen windows were rattling from it. More male arabs also showed up and now im really beginning to wonder with all this shit going on.
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A jackhammer?! You could call the cops about the noise....and with all that traffic, there could be some "drug dealing" going on over there. The boys in blue may want to do a check for illegal drugs and contraband?
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 8:37:42 PM EST
Sounds like things are getting pretty "interesting" around here, BRB, time to start loading some Thermolds.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 8:59:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By Waverunner: Sounds like things are getting pretty "interesting" around here, BRB, time to start loading some Thermolds.
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I think things have always been "interesting." Isn't this just confirmation of what we've known all along?
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 9:17:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/17/2002 9:19:39 PM EST by Badseed]
This stuff is nothing new... AKA IRA training handbook. I continue to [sleep] well. [peep] P.s. no offence to the author.. just MHO
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 9:19:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Originally Posted By Waverunner: Sounds like things are getting pretty "interesting" around here, BRB, time to start loading some Thermolds.
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I think things have always been "interesting." Isn't this just confirmation of what we've known all along?
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Yes indeed.
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 4:24:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/18/2002 4:26:22 AM EST by Muad_Dib]
Not long after 9/11 the news was showing clips of these films. I remember thinking at the time that they were practicing entry techniques with more precision than I was expecting to see. I also remember watching them clear rooms full of targets with live people intermixed. Thanks for the article. It's a good reminder.
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 8:02:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/18/2002 8:03:35 AM EST by Badd_Bradd]
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
Originally Posted By m193: What is the advantage of using the "homeboy carry" with an AK?
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In some CQB situations, such as firing from around cover, the weapon can malfunction if the ejection port is against the wall or whatever you're firing around.
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The only other reason I've heard of shooting "homeboy stye" was a friend of mine talking about FBI training. He said that in very dark situations, they would hold their pistols at a 90 degree angle, point with their pointer finger, and pull the trigger with the middle finger so they didn't aim too high. He expained that in very dark situations, almost anyone will aim high (if they don't have night sights). This is a horrible way to shoot, but in unique situations, it will help you to aim better. Anyone else heard of this special application?
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 10:28:07 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 11:05:33 AM EST
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: Alert the professionals at the first opportunity.
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I would but Delta Force has an unlisted number. Guess I'll have to settle for the FBI. If we're being attacked by soccer moms they could send Horiuchi. Braga could handle unarmed couples.
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 2:29:08 PM EST
[b][i] Attempt to acquire a better weapon system at the first opportunity (do you know how to place an AK into operation?).[/b][/i] Hate to sound like an alarmist, but prior to 9/11 I had no interest in an AK. I bought an AK in October - I wanted to know how they worked. Since then I have decided to buy a second one. My experience with my cheap ass SAR has been - that it has more recoil than an AR, is every bit as accurate for "practical" shooting and is cheap to shoot - just ordered another 2k rounds @ $75 / k shipped. My AK is my pickup at all time now with 4 loaded mags. Time to quit fuckin around everyone: CCW (full kit: x-tra mag, good knife, phone)- everyday / every where Never a victim, never another 9/11. Good luck to all
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