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Posted: 8/24/2004 1:14:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 1:14:04 PM EST by Hawkeye]
On what day is the ban offically expired? Midnight the 9/13 or the 14th?
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 5:07:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 5:09:09 AM EST by mjohn3006]
I'm waiting til the 14th. While I think the 13th is probably safe. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the 14th is %100 safe.

SO... since I probably won't get the chance to go to the range the 13th anyway, and my M4 parts and 3 collapsable stocks will take all of 10 mintes to install/put togeather and won't go anywhere if they sit one more day. I will be able to live with pre ban rifles until Tuesday the 14th.

btw. lmfao @ OGNTSA


OGNTSA
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 5:22:22 AM EST
The only federal case that I could find after a quick search which touches on this issue is Fusae Yamamoto v. Dulles, 16 F.R.D. 195, D.Hawai'i, Sep 21, 1954. The law in question was repealed on December 24; the court says December 23 was the last day the law was in effect. This is only a district court case, and not binding precedent on anybody.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 6:35:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By gotm4:

Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
The law is worded such a way that it expires 10 years after the day it is signed into law. It was signed into law September 13, 1994. I read this to mean the ban expires immediately on September 14, 2004. Helps to be in the Eastern Time Zone.



10yrs IS on Sept 13th. Sept 14th would have been 10yrs +1day.
The law didn't read 10yrs +1 day. It expires Monday morning 12:00:01hrs Sept 13th.



Read the law, because you obviously do not know what it says.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 6:45:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By imposter:
The collective wisdom seems to be midnight on 9/13. But nobody can really point to a case or other authority that says so, and several other analagous precepts of federal law say otherwise. Some of the enforcers of collective wisdom reach some pretty spurious legal conclusions in supporting their argument.



Anybody can look the law up on Thomas like I did. At least then the disagreement will be based on what it says, and not what people incorrectly think it says. The language they used is ambiguous, and can be interpreted 2 ways (kinda like the no zero year of the millenium), though the intent of Congress was to have a 10 year ban, it does not clearly say that. So yes, it should no longer be law on 09/13/04, but it is not clear ATF will read it that way.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 6:55:37 AM EST
One minor nitpick. I took a grad course on 'time' from a professor who at one time headed the US Naval Observatory.

In civilian time, 12:00 is neither AM or PM. It is either 'noon' or 'midnight'. I know your digital clock and some signs list 12:00 AM or PM, but they are wrong/ambiguous.

wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/info/noon.htm

Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:23:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 11:23:50 AM EST by gotm4]

Originally Posted By RenegadeX:

Originally Posted By gotm4:
10yrs IS on Sept 13th. Sept 14th would have been 10yrs +1day.
The law didn't read 10yrs +1 day. It expires Monday morning 12:00:01hrs Sept 13th.



Read the law, because you obviously do not know what it says.



It expires ON Sept 13, 2004.
Sept 13, 1994 10yrs +1 day would be Sept 14, 2004 My Wedding anniversary is May 28th. We celebrate it on May 28th NOT on the 29th.

Did you take a Government class?
Courts decide arguments about the meaning of laws, how they are applied, and whether they break the rules of the Constitution not the ATF.

Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:35:49 AM EST
I thought the ban already expired?
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:39:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 11:42:52 AM EST by imposter]

It expires ON Sept 13, 2004.

The law does not "expires," it is "repealed." Anyway, that does does not help your argument.

If I had a credit card that expired on September 13, 2004, could I use it on September 13, 2004?
(Answer: yes)

If the statute of limitations for a crime was 10 years and I committed a crime on September 13, 1994, could I be charged with that crime on September 13, 2004.
(Answer: yes)

If there was a law that was repealed on September 13, 2004, is it still a crime to violate that law on September 13, 2004?
(Answer: ?)


Link Posted: 8/24/2004 12:08:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By imposter:

It expires ON Sept 13, 2004.

The law does not "expires," it is "repealed." Anyway, that does does not help your argument.

If I had a credit card that expired on September 13, 2004, could I use it on September 13, 2004?
(Answer: yes)

If the statute of limitations for a crime was 10 years and I committed a crime on September 13, 1994, could I be charged with that crime on September 13, 2004.
(Answer: yes)

If there was a law that was repealed on September 13, 2004, is it still a crime to violate that law on September 13, 2004?
(Answer: ?)





Can't get more simple than that. I'll agree with ya. 14th
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:23:01 PM EST

...the ban sunsets at 12:00 a.m. E.S.T. on Sept 13th...

Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:27:00 PM EST
so that means it expires 1 minute after 11:59 pm on 9/12? this is confusing...
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:27:34 PM EST
\/
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:30:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 4:31:10 PM EST by R14]
I was wondering this too. DarkStar, how do you know it eastren time? That would mean 10:00 PM here in CO. right?
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:44:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 4:46:05 PM EST by DarkStar]


Originally Posted By Nuclear:
so that means it expires 1 minute after 11:59 pm on 9/12? this is confusing...



That's correct...

And yes indeed, it's eastern time... There were a few discussions in General and the conclusion was eastern time. I'll try and hunt down the threads...


edited to add: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=249537&page=1

Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:05:15 PM EST
Thanks DarkStar, I think. My head hurts now.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:40:38 PM EST
Got a couple of Baby Bushmasters the Doc says should be born around that time... They can get those delivery times pretty close now you know.. All that modern science shit ..
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:47:10 PM EST
All I know is that I will be up late that night.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:56:27 PM EST
God, if this were 1997-1998 the late night crew would be all over this come the stroke of midnight on the 13th...

There would be a massive "newborn" thread that magically appeared at that instant as if people were celebrating new years and making tons of noise at the stroke of midnight.


Ahhhh, memories of the late crew before the forums moved. Place was a litlte bit more rowdy and antiUSSA could always be found in the chatroom, usually drunk and rambling non-stop. Conspiracy theories with SameShot, kowhunter, and a few others that have long since moved on...


Now this place is just a zoo round the clock.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 6:00:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By DarkStar:

...the ban sunsets at 12:00 a.m. E.S.T. on Sept 13th...




For Some
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:23:15 AM EST
The law is worded such a way that it expires 10 years after the day it is signed into law. It was signed into law September 13, 1994. I read this to mean the ban expires immediately on September 14, 2004. Helps to be in the Eastern Time Zone.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:27:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
The law is worded such a way that it expires 10 years after the day it is signed into law. It was signed into law September 13, 1994. I read this to mean the ban expires immediately on September 14, 2004. Helps to be in the Eastern Time Zone.



10yrs IS on Sept 13th. Sept 14th would have been 10yrs +1day.
The law didn't read 10yrs +1 day. It expires Monday morning 12:00:01hrs Sept 13th.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:59:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 5:16:02 AM EST by imposter]
The collective wisdom seems to be midnight on 9/13. But nobody can really point to a case or other authority that says so, and several other analagous precepts of federal law say otherwise. Some of the enforcers of collective wisdom reach some pretty spurious legal conclusions in supporting their argument.

The law is repealed on 9/13; that is all the statute says. Whether a repealed law is like a expired for a credit card - still good on the last day - is still in question IMHO. Saying this of course gets you responses such as OGNTSA and the picture of the guy rubbing his forhead, as well as posts saying "use the search function." Using the search function will only result in more conventional wisdom and OGNTSA, without any real supporting legal authority.

It is clear that if you violate the law on the last day, they can prosecute you afterwards (see section 19 of title 1 of the US Code). I don't know if the enforcers of conventional wisdom have accepted this yet, but it is the law.

My conclusion: I would not post pictures of your new build on 9/13. I think conventional wisdom is right, but I would not bet my life on it.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 2:26:47 PM EST
Wow, thank god this bill wasn't signed on February 29th in a leap year!

Ok, lets look at the actual verbage of the law...........


SEC. 110105. EFFECTIVE DATE.
This subtitle and the amendments made by this subtitle--
(1) shall take effect on the date of the enactment of this
Act; and
(2) are repealed effective as of the date that is 10 years
after that date.



1. It specifies the word "DATE", not a time

2. In any given 10 year period, there can only be 10 September 13ths. To say the law is in effect till the end of 9/13/04.........lets see........that makes 11 September 13ths?

The law says "10 years after that date (9/13/94)" That 10 year period ends at 11:59 PM, 09/12/04.

11:59 PM 09/13/04 is ten years and ONE DAY "after that date" and thats not what the law says.

Why is this still being discussed???
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 3:31:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:
Wow, thank god this bill wasn't signed on February 29th in a leap year!

Ok, lets look at the actual verbage of the law...........


SEC. 110105. EFFECTIVE DATE.
This subtitle and the amendments made by this subtitle--
(1) shall take effect on the date of the enactment of this
Act; and
(2) are repealed effective as of the date that is 10 years
after that date.



1. It specifies the word "DATE", not a time


Right.

2. In any given 10 year period, there can only be 10 September 13ths. To say the law is in effect till the end of 9/13/04.........lets see........that makes 11 September 13ths?

What difference does this make? The law does not say that it in effect for the next 10 consecutive September thirteenths. The way time is calculated under the federal rules of criminal procedure, the "last day of the period" is included in the time period. On the other hand, "the day of the act" is not included, which was not the case here.

The law says "10 years after that date (9/13/94)" That 10 year period ends at 11:59 PM, 09/12/04.

Wrong, the law said it is "repealed effective as of the date that is 10 years after that date [9/13]." The question is whether a law is in effect on the day it is repealed. Your credit car is certainly good the expiration date, and you can be prosecuted on the day the statutes of limitations expires.

11:59 PM 09/13/04 is ten years and ONE DAY "after that date" and thats not what the law says.

You do not understand how time is calculated under federal law. If something has to happend within one year of September 13, you have until the next September 13 to do it. See Rule 45 of the rules of criminal procedure and Rule 6 of the rules of civil procudure.

Why is this still being discussed???

Because there is not clear answer as of yet. So far, all I have seen in the supposition, without any cite to controlling legal authority. I think the 13th is the probably right answer myself, but IMHO it would be foolhardy to post pics of your new build on that date.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 3:55:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By imposter:
Because there is not clear answer as of yet. So far, all I have seen in the supposition, without any cite to controlling legal authority. I think the 13th is the probably right answer myself, but IMHO it would be foolhardy to post pics of your new build on that date.



Now I just think you are having some fun with everyone

Even my 11 year old knows that a 10 year period of time that starts on 9/13/94 ends on 9/12/04. You don't need a law degree to figure that out, you only need a calendar.

Could it be that some people just want that extra day to be internet AWB Nazis?
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:31:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 4:33:58 PM EST by mcaswell]

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:
Even my 11 year old knows that a 10 year period of time that starts on 9/13/94 ends on 9/12/04. You don't need a law degree to figure that out, you only need a calendar.


Ahhhh... but what if the 10 year period didn't actually start until 9/14/94?

www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#o1
This page SEEMS to indicate the ban, while signed into law on the 13th, didn't actually take effect until the 14th.


It is generally unlawful for a person to manufacture, transfer, or possess semiautomatic assault weapons after September 13, 1994, the effective date of the law.

In other words, it was still ok to possess "assault weapons" on the 13th, but AFTER the 13th (i.e. the 14th) it was not ok. Then again, that same sentence seems to indicate the 13th is "the effective date" of the law.

The law clearly states that the ban expires on the day that is 10 years after the date of enactment. So, the question is, what is the date of enactment? Is it the day the law was signed, or the day it actually took effect?


Exceptions are provided for semiautomatic assault weapons and large capacity ammunition feeding devices -

(1) lawfully possessed on or before the date of enactment



The "on or before the date of enactment," seems to indicate that the 13th is considered the date of enactment (in other words, the 13th – the date of enactment – is ok, as were the days before this date).

But then there's this (from the AWB)...


This title and the amendments made by this title--

(1) shall take effect on the date of enactment of this Act; and

(2) are repealed effective as of the date that is 10 years after that date.


The restrictions are supposed to take effect "on the date of enactment," but isn't the date of enactment the 13th? So does that mean the date of enactment is considered to be the date the restrictions took effect (the 14th)?

Sorry to talk in circles here... it's a little confusing.

--Mike

Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:40:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By mcaswell:
it's a little confusing.



It really isn't but oh well, We will be partying and dremeling starting at 9pm on the 12th here in Vegas.

Note to ATF: we will leave the door unlocked so you won't have to blow the hinges off. All are welcome!
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:41:06 PM EST
AGNTSA!(ok, who's got the damn picture?)
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 5:12:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:

Originally Posted By mcaswell:
it's a little confusing.



It really isn't but oh well, We will be partying and dremeling starting at 9pm on the 12th here in Vegas.


Well, I'm sticking with the 13th, and will leave the awbansunset.com countdown timer set that way unless the ATF gives a clear indication otherwise. Even then, as someone on the awbansunset.com forum mentioned, if a provision of a law is vague and unclear, the citizen gets the benefit of the doubt. So even if it turns out to be the 14th, I doubt anyone's going to get prosecuted.


Note to ATF: we will leave the door unlocked so you won't have to blow the hinges off. All are welcome!

LOL!

--Mike
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 5:13:44 PM EST
We've been waiting 10 years, what's one more day?
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 5:21:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By dport:
We've been waiting 10 years, what's one more day?





+1
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 5:30:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By dport:
We've been waiting 10 years, what's one more day?



Honestly, it makes no difference to me apart from wanting to ensure that the countdown clock at www.awbansunset.com reflects the correct day. I don't want to pop the champagne corks on the night of the 12th, only to find out that it was premature (in the context of symbolism).

It's funny how this situation mirrors the millennium issue several years ago. Everyone celebrated 2000, while a handful of people pointed out that technically, it didn't start until 2001.

I guess we could celebrate the night of the 12th AND the night of the 13th!

--Mike

Link Posted: 8/24/2004 5:47:35 PM EST

SEC. 110105. EFFECTIVE DATE.
This subtitle and the amendments made by this subtitle--
(1) shall take effect on the date of the enactment of this
Act; and
(2) are repealed effective as of the date that is 10 years
after that date.



The law was enacted 13 September 1994. Ten years after that date is 13 September 2004.

The law is repealed 13 September 2004. It is legal under federal law to manufacture or possess an "assault weapon" on 13 September 2004.


Article [XXI.]

Section 1. The eighteenth article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed.

Section 2. The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited.

Section 3. This article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by conventions in the several States, as provided in the Constitution, within seven years from the date of the submission hereof to the States by the Congress.

Proposal and Ratification

The twenty-first amendment to the Constitution was proposed to the several states by the Seventy-Second Congress, on the 20th day of February, 1933, and was declared, in a proclamation by the Secretary of State, dated on the 5th day of December, 1933, to have been ratified by 36 of the 48 States.



Prohibition was repealed on 5 December 1933. It was legal under federal law to manufacture or possess intoxicating liquors on 5 December 1933.

Repeal of prohibition was declared at 5:32 PM; it was not declared in advance of the date, as the AWB is.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 5:59:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 5:59:44 PM EST by Riotgun]
BTW, the law is not a credit card. My credit cards are not repealed on a particular date. They are VALID THROUGH a particular date.

Don't use imperfect analogies to argue the expiration of the AWB.

(spelling edit)
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:13:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:
Even my 11 year old knows that a 10 year period of time that starts on 9/13/94 ends on 9/12/04. You don't need a law degree to figure that out, you only need a calendar.


Unfortunately, that is exactly the opposite of what law school would teach you. Send that 11 year old to law school and he will get it figured out.

Could it be that some people just want that extra day to be internet AWB Nazis?

Doesn't everybody?
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:20:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By Riotgun:
BTW, the law is not a credit card. My credit cards are not repealed on a particular date. They are VALID THROUGH a particular date.


Mine say "Expiration date" not "VALID THROUGH." They are still usable on the expiration date.

Don't use imperfect analogies to argue the expiration of the AWB.

It is an inexact analogy, but not IMHO a bad one. Note how many on this board use the word "expired" with reference to the AWB rather than the proper term "repealed."
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 11:46:04 AM EST
(cross posted to awbansunset.com)

Ok, I called the BATFE Public Affairs office. Though the person I spoke to was polite, he sounded like perhaps he was just an intern or something. Anyway, after telling him who I was and why I was calling, he said "we do not comment on pending legislation."

"My question is not about pending legislation," I said. "It's about the expiration date of the current 'assault weapons' ban."

"It's... uhhhh... coming up," was the response, adding "do you have any other questions?"

I then elaborated, saying that there is confusion as to whether the ban expires on the 13th or the 14th, and that I was hoping for some concrete information to pass on. He put me on hold for a minute or two, then came back and said he checked with the higher ups in the office, and was told that the ban expires on the 13th.

Take that for what it's worth.

--Mike
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:08:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 2:00:02 PM EST by Alien]
Hi. Who the hell cares? Nobody is going to arrest you for anything on the 13th even if it did expire on the 14th. What in the hell would be the point in arresting or charging somebody with a crime the day before it is no longer a law? You could probably get on national TV on the 13th and say "I HAVE AN ASSAULT WEAPON THAT IS ILLEGAL FOR ME TO POSESS BEFORE THE LAW EXPIRES ON SEPT 14th! OMG COME ARREST ME!" and nothing would probably happen to you. Seriously, some people worry too much and have their tin foil hats on too tight. If it's illegal on the 13th, it won't matter on the 14th.

Sorry for the annoyance and "energy" in this post, but this question and every other one has popped up once a day for the past few months, and it wasn't much better looking farther back.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:54:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By mcaswell:
He put me on hold for a minute or two, then came back and said he checked with the higher ups in the office, and was told that the ban expires on the 13th.

Take that for what it's worth.

--Mike



Cool!
On the 13th, the ban is EXPIRED

Good enough for me, thanks Mike

Seriously, I have at least 2 AR's with uppers and stocks waiting for 12:00:01 am EST on the 13th. It's going to take me all of 53 seconds to push the pins and tighten the lock ring. There is going to be a few of us celebrating and I am sure we will be taking pics that will take another 12 seconds to post. If there is going to be a train of assclowns bagging on the 100 "Check out Pics of my no-ban" threads that will be up MINUTES after midnight, a lot of people will be pissed........myself included.
If some of you really think the law reads "10 years + 1 day" then by all means, do what you feel is "safe" but keep it to yourself.
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