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Posted: 8/22/2004 10:19:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 10:24:44 PM EST by vito113]
So now we have torrents of self rightious indignation pouring out of the Arab countries over the 'desecration' and 'difilement' of the supposedly sacred Imam Ali Shrine……

All I can say to the Mullahs is BULLSHIT! Sadaam stormed that Mosque in 1991 and slaughtered everyone in it using troops, tanks and gas and hardly a murmer was raised by the "muslim" world, at this 'desecration'. It's about time the Coalition stop being suckered with the 'Sacred Shrine' trump card and called their bluff and flattened one. OK they'll sulk but they'll get over it… and they'll hate us, nothing new there, they do already. Funny how it's considered perfectly acceptible to destroy Christian Churches in Muslim countries. Hands up who know how many churches in Saudi Arabia? …Not a one!

"In 1991, Saddam damaged the Imam Ali Mosque because most of the people who rebelled and were part of the uprising against Saddam Hussain's government, were hiding in that mosque and they were taking it as a place of leadership. And so the Republican Guards fought the people, damaged that mosque and killed all the people who were inside. General Wafiq Al Samarae [the former director of the Iraqi Intelligence Service] admitted in his book (Eastern Gate Ruins) that Saddam's regime used chemical weapons against Iraqi people in the holy cities of Najaf and Karbala to crush the popular uprising of March 1991 which followed the defeat of Saddam in invading Kuwait.

Shi’a groups report capturing documents from the security services during the 1991 uprising that listed thousands of forbidden Shi’a religious writings. Since 1991 security forces had been encamped in the shrine to Imam Ali in Najaf, one of Shi’a Islam's holiest sites, and at the city’s Shi’a theological schools. The shrine was closed for "repairs" for approximately 2 years after the 1991 uprising."


www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/an-najaf-imam-ali.htm

If we keep letting them hamstring us with all this 'sacred' this and 'holy' that BS we will lose this war… personally I want to see the gloves come off, they have not yet, and if they did the Arab's would realy know "shock and awe". Just make one 'shrine' an example should get the message across loud and clear. The Serbs kept blowing mosques up in the Balkans and the Arabs didn't raise hell about it.

ANdy
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 10:27:13 PM EST
Arabs are strange.

One Arab slaughtering thousands of other Arabs is just simply taking care of business.

A non-Arab killing one Arab is grounds for outrage.

We really do need to exploit nuclear power so that we can let that part of the world disintegrate into chaos.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 10:32:10 PM EST
Yeah,I can't stand this "pc" warfare that we(the west)practice these days.

How absurd would it sound to WW2 commanders that we hold off limits supposedly "sacred" sights that are openly used as base of operations for a murderous enemy?

We give them life with this BS...let them snatch victory from the jaws of defeat,as it were...
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 10:37:15 PM EST
Aren't Jewish temples relatively often trashed in Europe? They don't seem to care too much about that. Yet Allah forbid that one of their "holy sites" gets touched. Isn't that place just ripe for a bunker buster?
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 10:40:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 10:44:39 PM EST by raven]
I watched a 3.5 hour made for tv movie from 1983 about Anwar Sadat yesterday. It portrayed thetypical Arab politican so succinctly, it probably would be called racist these days.

It portrayed Sadat and Nasserin the 50's and 60's as two faced, shameless liars who said whatever they thought would work to their advantage. After they broke their word and the US basically said "You're a bunch of worthless liars and we can't trust anything you say" they would say "It'll be different this time! Believe us!" and the US replied (basically) "Go pound sand."

It was such a shocking portrayal of how Arab politicans operate. The way they see it, any word they give can and will be broken, and if you're foolish enough to believe them, then you deserve to be burned. Then after they backstab you, they act like nothing happened and we should start from square one, as if nothing happened.

The fucking Arabs are snakes.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 10:41:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 10:59:51 PM EST by 82ndAbn]
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 10:42:24 PM EST
Totally agree.

We have the tech to take out targets like this with little or no collateral damage and yet we allow a HANDFUL of armed thugs to tie up our hands in this brand of "PC" warfare. The reason for having a military is to send them places to kill bad guys and blow their shit up.

As long as the thought on everyone's mind that controls these ops is "What will (fill in the blank) going to think about this?" we're doomed to keep playing this seriously fucked up game with these scumbags.

Slip the leash and let our people do what they are trained to do and END THIS HORSESHIT with the least number of WIA/KIA on both sides.

Link Posted: 8/22/2004 10:55:51 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 10:58:31 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 11:03:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
Of course they didn't say anything or protest when Sadam attacked the Imam Ali Shrine. They'd face certain torturous deaths!

I'm elated that the Iraqi people are without the sensation of pending doom and they've found a new feeling of bravery. They feel that they can protest without being tortured or killed! Gee, kinda like America, huh?

We won't lose this war by NOT blowing up shrines or religious holdings - we'll lose the support of the MAJORITY by attacking and destroying iconic religious buildings.

As the U.S. Special Forces say, "win the hearts and the minds."



Cept it seems these assholes run into the nearest phuckin phonebooth and it's declared a "sacred" sight..

There's no end to this game...

...and it's gettin stale....real stale.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 11:04:33 PM EST
I was thinking of the fact that the longer a conflict goes on, the more that are killed total on both sides. Any SANE civilization knows that fact. These assclowns however are programmed that dying is one of the best things that can happen to them.

We all know how well that worked for the Japanese in the long run last time around, don't we?

We've lost the will to use the power we have paid BILLIONS (and in blood) for. All the bombs, bullets and high-tech shit on this rock doesn't mean squat if you are AFRAID to use it because of what YOUR ENEMY (and their supporters) will think of you.

How far we've fallen and how fucked we are going to be if this pussy-footing doesn't stop RFN.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 11:12:30 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 1:18:58 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 2:10:42 AM EST
I aggree 82nd....

we need to keep the hearts and minds of the majority with us, as it is now.....

at the same time we need to root out these vermin from their hiding places, we can surgically remove all the structures around the holy mosque and then walk in and round up the insurgents......

that is my plan..... it aint perfect, but its mine.

Since we aint makin a glass parking lot out of this crap hole, that is the option that looks the best to me.

Pilk
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 2:23:17 AM EST
soory armchair commando's eighty duce is on time and on target , while working with these people i have learned that thye ar e shifty , lazy , lying, whinners but. thye are glad saddam is gone and when they feels safe enough thye will rat out they bad guys in a heartbeat . we have lost interperters becaus there famlies have been threatened and some live on our camp becasue they can't go home or they will end up dead this place will never be america east there culture and religion is to fubar but we now have a base for the pax americana and another "freind" in theis area
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 2:24:07 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 2:34:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 2:36:32 AM EST by EricTheHun]
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 3:02:29 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 3:11:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 3:11:42 AM EST by EricTheHun]
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 3:19:01 AM EST
OK, so we've established that it's apparently OK for Arabs to kill Arabs right?
Saddam got away with it being the example.
The new Iraqi military is unseasoned and untried at the moment right?
Why not use them to go in and kill these worthless bastards?
Seal off the area with American troops. Then send Iraqi troops in to drive the insurgents out.
Who can cry "religious oppression" when muslims go in and kill muslims?


That's my thought anyway. It's their country, let them start fighting for it. They may not be strong enough or organized enough to win it alone at the moment, but they can sure as hell learn a few things and play an active role.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 3:20:30 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 3:52:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 3:54:33 AM EST by TacticalMan]
"When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds follow."


I know, that's so WWII. In that war, if the enemy holed up in churches, we shelled them. Are not Churches holy? My dad was Catholic and he didn't seem to mind shelling them.
WWII - we lost that war, right?
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:03:53 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:08:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
we bombed dresden and berlin...the nazi 'support' did not grow.

we nuked hiroshima and nagasaki...the 'support' for hirohito and tojo did not grow.

you mollycoddle these bastages and yes, their support for the radicals will increase.

we stand off and bomb the middle east into submission...and mark my words, they WILL submit!...and no troopers die.

screw their mosques. screw their imams. screw their worthless wipe-their-asses-with-their-hands lives straight to hell.




Exactly. If you fight from a church, expect to get shot at. There is no "all-e all-e in free", im in a church bs........
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:09:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By Pilk:
we need to keep the hearts and minds of the majority with us, as it is now.....




But which majority? Our or theirs? Seems to me we are so wound up on winning their 'hearts and minds' we have forgotten about keeping our own sides 'hearts and minds' onside.

And I don't go for all this if we kill thousands of them we lose their 'hearts and minds"!

Remember WWII? We flattened most of Germanys and Japans cities… and as for Hiroshima and Nagasaki! Talk about getting their attention! Did we walk into countries with undying hatred towards us? Oh… NO! Because they knew EXACTLY HOW COLD BLOODED AND RUTHLESS WE COULD BE and didn't want to upset us.

Friends of mine are with the British Marines and my Nephew is an Army Combat Engineer… they are all now on their 2nd tour and they are getting demoralised at playing Mr Nice Guy while the other side takes turns at shooting at them.

The only thing the Arabs respect is power, that is why so many Iraqis are still a little fond of Sadaam… he was a 'Strong Man' and the Arabs will put up with a lot as long as the 'Leader' is seen to be 'Strong'. Every time we back down from deploying brute power when they call us out we are seen as being 'weak' and the Arabs despise 'weakness'. Israel knows that the only way to stay top dog in the Middle East is by being the Biggest and Nastiest dog in the fight. At the moment we bark a lot but we don't let our 'Dogs of War' Bite.

ANdy
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:13:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By byron2112:
Yeah,I can't stand this "pc" warfare that we(the west)practice these days.

How absurd would it sound to WW2 commanders that we hold off limits supposedly "sacred" sights that are openly used as base of operations for a murderous enemy?

We give them life with this BS...let them snatch victory from the jaws of defeat,as it were...



IIRC, Ike told the Allied forces advancing in Europe to be careful of hsitorical/cultural sites.

Of course, defeating Nazi Germany was the top priority, but he didn't want centuries of European history leveled in the process if it could be avoided.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:15:26 AM EST
Neutron bombs would not harm the "Holy sites"if the bodies were bulldozed promptly.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:22:25 AM EST
if we refuse to destroy a mosque that insurgents are using to attack our troops, then ALL the insurgents will start using mosques to protect themselves.

Iraq (and many other areas of the middle east) are just like Europe when it comes to sites with historical value. They have a few thousand years on us for accumulating those sites and almost any village will have a mosque with some historical signifigance.

Since we don't want to take it by storm (too costly in our troops lives) and we can't use chemical weapons like Saddam did, the best choice is to flatten the place.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:58:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 4:59:15 AM EST by ktm500]
Don't we have weapons that could be used to kill all those in the place without any structural damage?

ktm500


edit : just noticed dinkydows' post
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 8:00:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
we bombed dresden and berlin...the nazi 'support' did not grow.

we nuked hiroshima and nagasaki...the 'support' for hirohito and tojo did not grow.

you mollycoddle these bastages and yes, their support for the radicals will increase.

we stand off and bomb the middle east into submission...and mark my words, they WILL submit!...and no troopers die.

screw their mosques. screw their imams. screw their worthless wipe-their-asses-with-their-hands lives straight to hell.




This is because there are no perceived consequences for their actions.

It's similar to how heated Internet arguments can become and what some ppl are willing to say when all they see of someone else is an avatar. How much more civil these affairs would be if some of these/us keyboard commandos could see that the guy they/we just called a "monkey-fucking shitstain who probably fucked his sister until he was 27 [and she was 13]" is actually 6'5" and weighs 325.

Back to the main conversation, though, people are emboldened when they do not see that foolhardy actions can sometimes have consequences. Here is one of my favorite examples of this:





Link Posted: 8/23/2004 8:04:00 AM EST
they should fire 3 warning shots in the back of his head
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 8:12:08 AM EST
The problem is gentlemen, that we are not calling the shots anymore. This isn't a fight between the US and Al-Sadr anymore, it's the Iraqis problems. The new govt. of Iraq is calling the shots and if they say they don't want us to go into the shrine, we don't go, simple as that. If the new Iraqi govt. says they want to try to neogatiate, than that's what we do. We handed over the responsibiities of governing Iraq to the Iraqis, we have to let them run with the ball now. The new Iraqi govt. is afraid of angering the people of Iraq (rightly so I might add) if the Ali Shrine is destroyed.

We have tanks within 250 meters. I say let the new govt. do what it wants, keep the tanks there and not let anyone in or out. The Mahdi Militia will start to get hungry soon and will either surrender or come out of the Mosque to fight, just where we want them.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 10:15:44 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 11:13:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 11:16:40 AM EST by wise_jake]

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
Post from wise_jake:

Back to the main conversation, though, people are emboldened when they do not see that foolhardy actions can sometimes have consequences. Here is one of my favorite examples of this:

webpages.acs.ttu.edu/nsyma/images/misc/pisschild1.jpg

webpages.acs.ttu.edu/nsyma/images/misc/pisschild2.jpg


Heck, I was there that day!

photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=3502&iGalleryUnq=162&iImageUnq=1304

Actually that is my almost-twin cousin, Ezra Ben Hun, A Team member from ISR.

Eric The(ThisLandIsYourLand,ThisLandIsMyLand,Excep­tForThatTinySliverOverAgainstTheSea)Hun



LMFAO, man! That's rich.


BTW, did you receive your letter?


ETA: I think 1/2 the reason the kid's so scared is b/c your cousin is showing the kid how many fingers they're gonna give him! See on the kid's left arm? "Two fingers, you little bitch! I'm gonna give you two fingers w/ no lube if you don't start talking fast....."
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 11:20:02 AM EST
what's new, they blew up 6 churches in Iraq not but 3 weeks ago...on a SUNDAY!!!!
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 11:57:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By Strudle54:
what's new, they blew up 6 churches in Iraq not but 3 weeks ago...on a SUNDAY!!!!



'cynical mode on' yes but they were only Christian Churches, not holy mosques or sacred sites, 'cynical mode off'.

And that's my point exactly, we are so busy trying to be 'correct' and not 'offend muslim sensibilities' we seem to have lost sight of what exactly we are fighting., ie; utterly rutless psychopaths who will stop at nothing to kill or destroy our troops or our will and will use ANY tactic or method to achieve their aims while we try and be Mr Nice Guy.

ANdy
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 12:28:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Strudle54:
what's new, they blew up 6 churches in Iraq not but 3 weeks ago...on a SUNDAY!!!!



'cynical mode on' yes but they were only Christian Churches, not holy mosques or sacred sites, 'cynical mode off'.

And that's my point exactly, we are so busy trying to be 'correct' and not 'offend muslim sensibilities' we seem to have lost sight of what exactly we are fighting., ie; utterly rutless psychopaths who will stop at nothing to kill or destroy our troops or our will and will use ANY tactic or method to achieve their aims while we try and be Mr Nice Guy.

ANdy



You get 'em, Andy......

Seriously, while I appreciate 82ndAbn's comments and sensibilities, at some point these kid gloves must come off. I think we can, in a sense, "Get both!" by trying to avoid mosques, etc, as best we can,* but still taking the fight to these fuckers w/ 110% when they're out of the shadow of the mosque.


* With proclamations of: "If these 'so-called radicals' don't really represent the heart of the 'Religion of Peace,' then I'm sure you people will have no problem turning them into us, in order to save your mosques and holy places from annihilation once these weasels inevitably hole up in them."
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 12:34:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 2:49:50 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 5:05:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
Post from wise_jake -

LMFAO, man! That's rich.

I think that pic may be from the website that PoliticalScience made that is entitled:

EricTheHun Answers your Questions About the Arab-Israeli Conflict

free.hostdepartment.com/P/PoliticalScience/Eric/index.htm

It's a pretty good spoof on my Pro-Zionist views on Israel!

BTW, did you receive your letter?

Yes, I did and I am as pleased as punch!

And that's punch with alcoholic fixings added!

ETA: I think 1/2 the reason the kid's so scared is b/c your cousin is showing the kid how many fingers they're gonna give him! See on the kid's left arm? "Two fingers, you little bitch! I'm gonna give you two fingers w/ no lube if you don't start talking fast....."

Ezra Ben Hun and I have a very old covenant, together:

What happens on the West Bank and Gaza stays in the West Bank and Gaza!

It's served us well, so far, so I see no reason to begin jabbering now!

Let's just say that der kleine knabe won't be flinging rocks anytime soon. boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/images/smilies/happyyid.gif

Eric The(Lachende)Hun



That's one of the funniest things I've seen in quite some time. I think it illustrates quite well all the craziness going on over there and just how hard it is to "do anything" or for anything to "get done." If we can't fix it, we can always laugh heartily at it......
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 5:08:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
Everybody's opinions that were contrary to what I had been stating earlier makes perfect sense. And I do appreciate the input. Thanks - I learned something.






What he said, back at all of y'all: 82nd, Pilk, Colt.

There are no easy questions, therefore no easy answers, therefore no easy solutions.......
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 9:57:07 AM EST
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