User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 12:23:23 PM EDT
Good afternoon all,
On account of our limited ability to meet in person at the moment due to current events, there is going to be a handful of online leadership development forums over the next few weeks. This forum is an introductory exercise, in the following weeks we will post a combination of readings, videos, and live classroom exercises. What follows is a Tactical Decision Game, or TDG. TDGs are utilized by the armed forces as educational exercises, especially for student officers. Developing your ability to rapidly evaluate a situation, come to a decision, communicate it to others, and take action has positive benefits both inside and outside the military- especially in an organization like the American Pioneer Corps where you may be operating in chaos in response to an emergency situation. Please post your responses to the below TDG. Do not simply explain what you will do, but explain in as much detail as possible your train of thought that brought you to your posted conclusion. Please do not edit posts- make corrections via subsequent posts. You should be done typing within 5 minutes of reading the TDG, and should only make corrections for spelling at that point prior to hitting submit. Ben 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 12:34:02 PM EDT
[#1]
Tag
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 12:37:30 PM EDT
[#2]
Reserved post
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 12:37:48 PM EDT
[#3]
Dearest Mother,
Today marked the 8th day of the campaign, and I fear the spirit of all the OPTs is flagging. Yesterday, we fought a fierce wargame around two COAs, and the action was hotly contested. Nary a planner escaped without some wound, and many were grievous, I fear. A major from the J-2 lost his leg when his collection plan broke loose and fell on him. Yet some part of me sees him as the lucky one. For him, this war is over. The rest of us remain. Today, we engaged in hand-to-hand to seize COA 2.5, but it looks no different to me than what we fought for yesterday. The logistics planner says that we will use multi-mode sustainment, but none of us know what that means. I pray that, tomorrow, the IO and fires effects are coordinated. How I miss you and my sisters. I remain, Your son |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 12:44:31 PM EDT
[#4]
Get the high ground go to the hill to the East and try to see what’s going on, once there get my 240b’s to set up to aim where the gun fire was coming from. I would also radio in to command that we just got shot at, give them all the info I could.
From there I would just keep looking and listening, if thing quiet down then I would advance to the Rally point heading south then move west and try to flank. (This is my first time ever doing this, I hope this works  )ETA:  Attached File |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 12:48:31 PM EDT
[#5]
Tag
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 12:56:19 PM EDT
[#6]
I made a brief video showing my solution.
 Predator - Shooting Jungle [HD] |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 12:58:34 PM EDT
[#7]
Assume the two at the ORP are dead. Hold position using available cover/concealment and focus on direction of ORP, radio silent, prepare for firefight in that direction.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 1:05:51 PM EDT
[#8]
I follow the 5 point contingency plan I established before I split the patrol.
 Typically my 5 point for if the ORP makes contact was for them to defend in place until the remainder of the patrol can fight back to them, or break contact and link up at the previous rally point. Assuming no radios with the party at the ORP, I would withdraw from the ambush position and move to the ORP. Movement technique would be bounding overwatch, since contact just occurred and is expected. Give the far and near recognition signals and either successfully link up with my soldiers at the ORP or destroy the enemy that is searching our rucks. Then grab rucks and move out is quickly as possible. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 1:05:55 PM EDT
[#9]
Displace across the trail N and reorient the ambush fields of fire W,S,E with a 2 man picket approx 50 yds N adj the clearing to the NE. Expediently place 2 claymores at terminus of path used from ORP.
Advise platoon leader over radio of new pos and possible contact at ORP. If nothing further, at 0430 push W on the N side of the trail until 100m beyond the ORP. Cross S before first light and approach the ORP from elevation and the W. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 1:06:31 PM EDT
[#10]
I would not want to abandon the OBJ. In addition to the unstated importance of the mission, that would be the most likely avenue for enemy reinforcement. I would leave the machine gun squad (fire) and one fire team (maneuver) under the command of the Weapons Squad Leader. Leaving the most casualty producing weapons with a small maneuver element enables the completion of the mission. Radio to higher and call for the rest of the Platoon to move towards the elevated terrain to the southeast of the ORP.
I would then lead the two remaining fire teams back to the ORP to attempt link-up procedures (from the elevated terrain to the southeast). In addition to the importance of the two Marines, the recovery of the packs is vital to sustainment. Without the weapons squad, this element will be able to move faster and quieter. Link-up presents two likely scenarios. 1: the ORP has been overrun and the 2 Marines are dead. 2: the two Marines in the ORP have repelled the attack. Determine the composition and disposition of the enemy force. If numerically superior and scenario 1 has occurred, call in a fire mission on the ORP and exfil all pax (the loss of the packs renders the patrol non-mission capable). If the enemy is smaller and still in the vicinity (scenario 2), conduct squad attack. Once the enemy has been destroyed, leave one fire team in the ORP and direct the remainder of the Platoon there, while taking the other fire team back to the OBJ and prepare to conduct an ambush on enemy reinforcements. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 1:07:18 PM EDT
[#11]
Machine gun teams take the high points to the east and west of the ORP. Team 2 moves north to observe the trail for enemy movement. If Teams 1 or 3 see enemy, they'll have the advantage. Team 2 staying put on the north side of the trail is unexpected for any incoming backup support so they'll have the advantage.
Radio platoon when needed to expedite backup or mortar fire if needed.  Attached File |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 1:09:18 PM EDT
[#12]
I’m happy to see some continued APC development. There was really some momentum going prior to C19 kinda making the wheels come off. Thanks for doing this and please keep it coming. I’ll be going back to read the TDG this evening after work.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 1:12:33 PM EDT
[#13]
Assume that the soldiers left at ORP have been ambushed and are dead or dying. Detail fireteam 3 and one MG to remain in ambush positions along the trail and provide rear security. Fireteams 1 and 2 and one MG team return to ORP to investigate and assist. Radio command before setting out to advise them of the situation. Instruct the fireteam and MG team that are left overlooking the trail that if they hear us being engaged they should head due south 200m and then approach the ORP from the SE. Accompany fireteams 1 and 2 to the ORP personally so that I can immediately update command as the situation develops.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 1:13:45 PM EDT
[#14]
OK,
From the tone Im having to guess here, but Im guessing that the trail is clandestine, and gunfire in the area has either spooked the enemy off the trail or at least caused them to halt. In any case, they are gona be advancing a LOT more cautiously, if they come down the trail at all. Ambush is a bust. I dont know if the ambush was made or just someone wandered onto the ORP. Im pulling FT1 and their MG (MG1 hereafter) back from the trail 50M and have them rig for defense from the trail side. My concern is that the folks at the ORP are in concert with someone gonna hit us from the trail. FT2 and FT3 pull back with FT1 and then head towards the ORP. FT2 to the west of the ORP and FT3 to the east. FTs are to maintain visual distance (~50M) MG 2 sets 25M SE of FT1 and MG1 to provide a base of cover if FT2 and FT3 run into something that they need to back out from. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 1:14:04 PM EDT
[#15]
Tagging. I have zero experience with this, so my first thought was to shit in my hands and tell my squad I’m busy.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 1:14:32 PM EDT
[#16]
Tag for the learning opportunity.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 1:32:49 PM EDT
[#17]
 Attached FileBrief notes since I'm on my phone: Abandon ambush, surprise is lost. Enemy most likely know they hit ORP of larger element due to packs on ground and can logically assume they are in ambush along road. Right side Mg and fire team 3 head south to blocking positions looking downhill to west towards ORP Left MG and FT1 Bound SW and recon towards ORP, FT2 maintains center position while slowly moving south. They must maintain contact with left and right elements due to night visibility. Contact must be kept between fire teams. Splitting them off into the night is detrimental to combat power. Alert higher HQ of contact, request fires etc.. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 1:39:53 PM EDT
[#18]
Military tactics should be a subforum. This training makes firearms truly useful.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 1:49:42 PM EDT
[#19]
This should have been covered in the crap I can't remember the term, but the leader's plan should have a what if in there for this exact scenario
I'd hazard it would involve some sort of attempt to contact using the radio, if that fails pul back from the ambush and tactically move to the ORP and attempt to restablish contact using the challange and passwortd -leaving typos in
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 1:50:39 PM EDT
[#20]
So how is this a game when we'll never know who's the most right?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 1:50:40 PM EDT
[#21]
First off, try to establish comms with the guys at OBJ. Failing that, assume bad shit has happened and they need help. Move all the teams west away from the open area to the north. Team one and a gun squad set up off the road to cover it and keep an eye out. Team two and three travel southwest together. Team two holds north of OBJ and tries to see WTF is going on while 3 setup up to the west of OBJ with another gun squad. Then find out how your buddies are doing.
 Attached File |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 1:53:09 PM EDT
[#22]
i have no fucking clue, best guess:
Leave 2 MGs and 1 of the fire teams at the ambush spot send two fire teams to investigate the gunfire, if all clear return to the ambush spot |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 1:54:20 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Get the high ground go to the hill to the East and try to see what’s going on, once there get my 240b’s to set up to aim where the gun fire was coming from. I would also radio in to command that we just got shot at, give them all the info I could. From there I would just keep looking and listening, if thing quiet down then I would advance to the Rally point heading south then move west and try to flank. (This is my first time ever doing this, I hope this works )ETA:https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/417747/BA66BCDD-6EC2-4472-8A06-E26FC2F714DD_jpe-1358946.JPG Also no experience, this is what I would do with the addition of setting the claymores at the initial ambush site so I get some feedback on my back trail. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 1:59:13 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Get the high ground go to the hill to the East and try to see what’s going on, once there get my 240b’s to set up to aim where the gun fire was coming from. I would also radio in to command that we just got shot at, give them all the info I could. From there I would just keep looking and listening, if thing quiet down then I would advance to the Rally point heading south then move west and try to flank. (This is my first time ever doing this, I hope this works )ETA:https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/417747/BA66BCDD-6EC2-4472-8A06-E26FC2F714DD_jpe-1358946.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted: Get the high ground go to the hill to the East and try to see what’s going on, once there get my 240b’s to set up to aim where the gun fire was coming from. I would also radio in to command that we just got shot at, give them all the info I could. From there I would just keep looking and listening, if thing quiet down then I would advance to the Rally point heading south then move west and try to flank. (This is my first time ever doing this, I hope this works )ETA:https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/417747/BA66BCDD-6EC2-4472-8A06-E26FC2F714DD_jpe-1358946.JPG ok...so a few questions, but lets start with one for now: Why did you choose to move to the hill east of the ORP? Why that position specifically? Quoted: Assume the two at the ORP are dead. Hold position using available cover/concealment and focus on direction of ORP, radio silent, prepare for firefight in that direction. Are there potentially any moral or operational issues associated with simply writing off your two guys at the ORP? Are you potentially at a disadvantage reorienting towards a suspected enemy with your rear now facing a known enemy high speed avenue of approach? If so, how can you mitigate that? How long do you wait for an attack that may or may not come? What events might spur you into a different course of action? Quoted: Displace across the trail N and reorient the ambush fields of fire W,S,E with a 2 man picket approx 50 yds N adj the clearing to the NE. Expediently place 2 claymores at terminus of path used from ORP. Advise platoon leader over radio of new pos and possible contact at ORP. If nothing further, at 0430 push W on the N side of the trail until 100m beyond the ORP. Cross S before first light and approach the ORP from elevation and the W. So if I understand correctly, you are pushing out a 2 man picket out to the maximum distance you can see them, right? What are some potential issues with them being that far away? If you move to the north side of the trail, how far south of the trail are you going to be able to observe? Will you effectively be leaving your claymores unobserved? |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:00:27 PM EDT
[#25]
No experience with this past ROTC 1 and 2 25 years ago.
1. Displace entire ambush 2. Move squad 3 and an MG team East and set up along the trail at least 500 meters further down the trail 3. Send squad 1 and 2 plus an MG team back towards the ORP in bounding overwatch 4. Approach the ORP in a pincer type formation and try to establish contact using SOP hopefully established before hand 5. Determine what happened and call higher 6. Move 1 and 2 plus MG to the east towards the Platoon and have Squad 3 displace and move south to watch our back trail as we move east This is a very interesting exercise and I appreciate the opportunity, hopefully we can be lectured on how fucked we civilians are.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:02:20 PM EDT
[#26]
Grab a couple of gernades and run towards the gun fire, while yelling LEEEEERRROOOOYYYY JEEEEEENKIINS!
Hope to re-spawn somewhere less sucky, like a topless beach near Cancun. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:02:30 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Also no experience, this is what I would do with the addition of setting the claymores at the initial ambush site so I get some feedback on my back trail. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Get the high ground go to the hill to the East and try to see what’s going on, once there get my 240b’s to set up to aim where the gun fire was coming from. I would also radio in to command that we just got shot at, give them all the info I could. From there I would just keep looking and listening, if thing quiet down then I would advance to the Rally point heading south then move west and try to flank. (This is my first time ever doing this, I hope this works )ETA:https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/417747/BA66BCDD-6EC2-4472-8A06-E26FC2F714DD_jpe-1358946.JPG Also no experience, this is what I would do with the addition of setting the claymores at the initial ambush site so I get some feedback on my back trail. This is what I was leaning towards, but If it was a larger element that took out the ORP, they could be rolling up to the ambush point. I chose to redeploy them south to start taking some initiative back. I like the idea of keeping the claymores on the trail with a tripwire to block that avenue. I get the feeling this is one of those things where there is no correct answer
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:08:49 PM EDT
[#28]
I would take 2 fireteams with me to clear the ORP. Leave the most senior team and both 240s on the OBJ.
Any senior team leader can effectively run an ambush with 2 guns and another team(249, M320), with claymores set to initiate. I would also consider leaving another 249 gunner for the ambush. I would leave a PACE plan with the TL for if we don't report back in 1 hour. Take the 2 fireteams with me to clear the ORP. If there is contact, we need a base of fire and an assaulting element. *There should've been a radio or at least a signaling device(star cluster) at the ORP. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:09:35 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Machine gun teams take the high points to the east and west of the ORP. Team 2 moves north to observe the trail for enemy movement. If Teams 1 or 3 see enemy, they'll have the advantage. Team 2 staying put on the north side of the trail is unexpected for any incoming backup support so they'll have the advantage. Radio platoon when needed to expedite backup or mortar fire if needed. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/167167/2020-04-09_12_04_07-APC_Leadership_Devel-1358929.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted: Machine gun teams take the high points to the east and west of the ORP. Team 2 moves north to observe the trail for enemy movement. If Teams 1 or 3 see enemy, they'll have the advantage. Team 2 staying put on the north side of the trail is unexpected for any incoming backup support so they'll have the advantage. Radio platoon when needed to expedite backup or mortar fire if needed. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/167167/2020-04-09_12_04_07-APC_Leadership_Devel-1358929.JPG Is there a geometry of fire issue here? What purpose are the MGs fulfilling in those positions? Quoted: Assume that the soldiers left at ORP have been ambushed and are dead or dying. Detail fireteam 3 and one MG to remain in ambush positions along the trail and provide rear security. Fireteams 1 and 2 and one MG team return to ORP to investigate and assist. Radio command before setting out to advise them of the situation. Instruct the fireteam and MG team that are left overlooking the trail that if they hear us being engaged they should head due south 200m and then approach the ORP from the SE. Accompany fireteams 1 and 2 to the ORP personally so that I can immediately update command as the situation develops. Why might it be important to bring higher into the loop about what is happening before setting off? If one or both of the guys left at the ORP have critical wounds, how long do they potentially have to make it to higher medical care? Quoted: OK, From the tone Im having to guess here, but Im guessing that the trail is clandestine, and gunfire in the area has either spooked the enemy off the trail or at least caused them to halt. In any case, they are gona be advancing a LOT more cautiously, if they come down the trail at all. Ambush is a bust. I dont know if the ambush was made or just someone wandered onto the ORP. Im pulling FT1 and their MG (MG1 hereafter) back from the trail 50M and have them rig for defense from the trail side. My concern is that the folks at the ORP are in concert with someone gonna hit us from the trail. FT2 and FT3 pull back with FT1 and then head towards the ORP. FT2 to the west of the ORP and FT3 to the east. FTs are to maintain visual distance (~50M) MG 2 sets 25M SE of FT1 and MG1 to provide a base of cover if FT2 and FT3 run into something that they need to back out from. OK, so your concern is the hunters have become the hunted, right? Under what conditions would MG1 and FT1s tasks change? |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:15:57 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would take 2 fireteams with me be to clear the ORP. Leave the most senior team and both 240s on the OBJ. Any senior team leader can effectively run and ambush with 2 guns and another team(249, M320), with claymores set to initiate. I would also consider leaving another 249 gunner for the ambush. I would leave a PACE plan with the TL for if we don't report back in 1 hour. Take the 2 fireteams with me to clear the ORP. If there is contact, we need a base of fire and an assaulting element. *There should've been a radio or at least a signaling device(star cluster) at the ORP. Regarding your last point; if there WAS a radio or signaling device at the ORP, but it wasn't used, what conclusions could be drawn from that? |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:20:31 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/405668/ambush_png-1358964.JPG Brief notes since I'm on my phone: Abandon ambush, surprise is lost. Enemy most likely know they hit ORP of larger element due to packs on ground and can logically assume they are in ambush along road. Right side Mg and fire team 3 head south to blocking positions looking downhill to west towards ORP Left MG and FT1 Bound SW and recon towards ORP, FT2 maintains center position while slowly moving south. They must maintain contact with left and right elements due to night visibility. Contact must be kept between fire teams. Splitting them off into the night is detrimental to combat power. Alert higher HQ of contact, request fires etc.. Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/405668/ambush_png-1358964.JPG Brief notes since I'm on my phone: Abandon ambush, surprise is lost. Enemy most likely know they hit ORP of larger element due to packs on ground and can logically assume they are in ambush along road. Right side Mg and fire team 3 head south to blocking positions looking downhill to west towards ORP Left MG and FT1 Bound SW and recon towards ORP, FT2 maintains center position while slowly moving south. They must maintain contact with left and right elements due to night visibility. Contact must be kept between fire teams. Splitting them off into the night is detrimental to combat power. Alert higher HQ of contact, request fires etc.. What is the purpose of the blocking position? Quoted: First off, try to establish comms with the guys at OBJ. Failing that, assume bad shit has happened and they need help. Move all the teams west away from the open area to the north. Team one and a gun squad set up off the road to cover it and keep an eye out. Team two and three travel southwest together. Team two holds north of OBJ and tries to see WTF is going on while 3 setup up to the west of OBJ with another gun squad. Then find out how your buddies are doing. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/504836/15864546021501254625743217754233_jpg-1358995.JPG Are there any other things you might need to do? How easy or difficult might it be to get teams into position around the ORP in the dark without the enemy potentially at that location knowing they are there? If FT2 needs to move into the ORP, as depicted in your graphic, how quickly might the MG team and FT3 need to cut off their fires to avoid fratricide? Quoted: i have no fucking clue, best guess: Leave 2 MGs and 1 of the fire teams at the ambush spot send two fire teams to investigate the gunfire, if all clear return to the ambush spot If there has just been a gunfight IVO your ORP, do you have any concerns about returning to an ambush site 200m away? |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:23:20 PM EDT
[#32]
Stand fast and maintain radio silence. Signal for FT2 to keep watch in the direction of the ORP.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:23:43 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have zero military experience, and there are several courses of action the seem reasonable than have already been mentioned. I personally would lead toward moving the ambush and sending a FT back to determine the status of the ORP. But what do I know? Regarding your last point; if there WAS a radio or signaling device at the ORP, but it wasn't used, what conclusions could be drawn from that? Moving the ambush where? You can send one team back to check on ORP as a recon element, but one team can't do much in a fight if it comes to that. On the contrary, 2 240s and a fire team with a claymore initiation is still a solid ambush. Option 1: they're dead. Option 2: you left idiot privates at the ORP lol. Either way, you have to be accountable for your men, weapons, and equipment at all times. So you must go to the ORP to recover all of that at some point. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:24:14 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: Good afternoon all, On account of our limited ability to meet in person at the moment due to current events, there is going to be a handful of online leadership development forums over the next few weeks. This forum is an introductory exercise, in the following weeks we will post a combination of readings, videos, and live classroom exercises. What follows is a Tactical Decision Game, or TDG. TDGs are utilized by the armed forces as educational exercises, especially for student officers. Developing your ability to rapidly evaluate a situation, come to a decision, communicate it to others, and take action has positive benefits both inside and outside the military- especially in an organization like the American Pioneer Corps where you may be operating in chaos in response to an emergency situation. Please post your responses to the below TDG. Do not simply explain what you will do, but explain in as much detail as possible your train of thought that brought you to your posted conclusion. Please do not edit posts- make corrections via subsequent posts. You should be done typing within 5 minutes of reading the TDG, and should only make corrections for spelling at that point prior to hitting submit. Ben https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/72384/TDG-1358861.png ORP is dead. Assume my ambush has been compromised. Call in as much Arty as I can between my current location and ORP location. Then pull back across the road and dig in to kill any enemy survivors fleeing in my direction. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:25:13 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What is the purpose of the blocking position? To prevent enemy forces from continuing through the ORP and getting the high ground east. Leaving my forces in the draw come daylight. It secures that flank so i can manuever off of it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:25:31 PM EDT
[#36]
Tag so I can read this later.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:34:06 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/405668/ambush_png-1358964.JPG Brief notes since I'm on my phone: Abandon ambush, surprise is lost. Enemy most likely know they hit ORP of larger element due to packs on ground and can logically assume they are in ambush along road. Right side Mg and fire team 3 head south to blocking positions looking downhill to west towards ORP Left MG and FT1 Bound SW and recon towards ORP, FT2 maintains center position while slowly moving south. They must maintain contact with left and right elements due to night visibility. Contact must be kept between fire teams. Splitting them off into the night is detrimental to combat power. Alert higher HQ of contact, request fires etc.. Couple things I see. Ambush isn't necessarily compromised just because the ORP is. That is 200m away in thick vegetation. Is 2 possible casualties enough to call off the mission? We aren't given how critical this mission is in the scenario, but something to think about. I like the idea of your hillside element, but there's no way they will be able to see the ORP that far with thick veg at night. And you're splitting your element to an unknown location with no radio. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:34:33 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are there potentially any moral or operational issues associated with simply writing off your two guys at the ORP? Yes and Yes. Of course that is a hard decision but there are another (up to) 18 other guys to be concerned of plus myself and the objective. Also, there still may also be an opportunity to complete the objective - We are not sure if anything is blown (yet). Are you potentially at a disadvantage reorienting towards a suspected enemy with your rear now facing a known enemy high speed avenue of approach? If so, how can you mitigate that? Yes but laying in wait using the terrain as cover/concealment is still an advantage. Of course, you will be scanning in every direction with main focus towards the ORP. I would not want to diminish the fire teams’ or MG squad‘s effectiveness by splitting them. I would also assume they most likely heard the mg fire in the direction of the ORP How long do you wait for an attack that may or may not come? What events might spur you into a different course of action? I would wait until discovery, encounter, or radio silence was broken. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Assume the two at the ORP are dead. Hold position using available cover/concealment and focus on direction of ORP, radio silent, prepare for firefight in that direction. Are there potentially any moral or operational issues associated with simply writing off your two guys at the ORP? Yes and Yes. Of course that is a hard decision but there are another (up to) 18 other guys to be concerned of plus myself and the objective. Also, there still may also be an opportunity to complete the objective - We are not sure if anything is blown (yet). Are you potentially at a disadvantage reorienting towards a suspected enemy with your rear now facing a known enemy high speed avenue of approach? If so, how can you mitigate that? Yes but laying in wait using the terrain as cover/concealment is still an advantage. Of course, you will be scanning in every direction with main focus towards the ORP. I would not want to diminish the fire teams’ or MG squad‘s effectiveness by splitting them. I would also assume they most likely heard the mg fire in the direction of the ORP How long do you wait for an attack that may or may not come? What events might spur you into a different course of action? I would wait until discovery, encounter, or radio silence was broken. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:34:55 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistorySo if I understand correctly, you are pushing out a 2 man picket out to the maximum distance you can see them, right? What are some potential issues with them being that far away? If you move to the north side of the trail, how far south of the trail are you going to be able to observe? Will you effectively be leaving your claymores unobserved? Primary concern with picket distance is signal/comms. Closing gap results in loss of reaction time. Splitting pickets at 25m intervals reduces fields of observation and their security. Ref claymore observation. Assumption is widest part of trail is approx 10m with best case 50m visibility into Southern woodline for 60m possible. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:37:31 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Moving the ambush where? You can send one team back to check on ORP as a recon element, but one team can't do much in a fight if it comes to that. On the contrary, 2 240s and a fire team with a claymore initiation is still a solid ambush. Option 1: they're dead. Option 2: you left idiot privates at the ORP lol. Either way, you have to be accountable for your men, weapons, and equipment at all times. So you must go to the ORP to recover all of that at some point. If I were expecting enemy traffic to come down the trail from a specific direction, I'd displace the team further down the trail; meaning if I were expecting traffic from the West, I'd move east. If any enemy moving down the trail heard the firing I'd expect them to be on their guard, and perhaps moving down the trail would allow them more time for the adrenaline to wear off and for them to let their guard down a bit. Dumb civvy question: how practical is it to pick up and move armed claymores once they've been set? I assume that if the ambush has been in place for two hours that all that stuff has been emplaced. WRT sending one FT vs 2; I honestly don't know. The difficulties around Option 1 depend entirely on what killed the ORP detail; and if I send 2 teams I'm essentially splitting my force in half in terrain where mutual support, even at close range, is difficult. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:38:02 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why might it be important to bring higher into the loop about what is happening before setting off? If one or both of the guys left at the ORP have critical wounds, how long do they potentially have to make it to higher medical care? I'm non-mil and never called in any sort of sit-rep, but I figured a quick update would not take very long - and given that I have already sat on my fingers for 3 minutes, if the two guys at the ORP are bleeding out then the time I spend on the radio is probably not going to matter much either way when it comes to just stabilizing them. However, having my leadership in the loop may mean that they can be looking at how to get medevac or reinforcements to me while I'm moving back to the ORP and possibly engaging with enemy forces - something I'll probably have to do just to recover the guys at the ORP before I can start giving them any aid. Not blind-siding them with this may mean that they can get resources to me quicker overall. Basically gambling that the time I spend on the radio is not the difference between life and death because if they're going to die in that time, I would not have been able to save them anyway. But the time an early update to leadership could get me on the back end could make a difference. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:41:11 PM EDT
[#42]
@Ben I believe this was your question: Why did you choose to move to the hill east of the ORP? Why that position specifically?
I chose to love to the hill to the East to get a vantage point and see what was going on, I posted my M240B there so if SHTF they could quickly return fire. Once I moved to this position I would radio command and see if the two guys at QRP are ok, if no reply I would move south of the hill I was positioned at then west to flank the QRP and take control of it. I hope this makes sense, again I’m new to this lol |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:42:53 PM EDT
[#43]
Well...i was a boy scout....and watched platoon...sooooo with that said.
Id drop the ambush. Its compromised because junior feel asleep. I'd try to make radio contact, if none. Id basically set up to make visual contact with ORP . Id send one mg team east of the orp with fire team. While advance to orp with the other teams. Once set up. Try contact . If none advance through. East mg team will advance enough to provide cover and also be a cut off to that side. In my mind if the enemy is still in the orp they now have to advance into the east mg team. Then be in the line of fire with the other teams as they assault through. Or they try to break contact up hill to the west. Gives them high ground ....but im a tard and thought of that while typing just now. I fail lol. Ive never done this before..be gentle lol  Attached File |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:45:00 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are there any other things you might need to do? How easy or difficult might it be to get teams into position around the ORP in the dark without the enemy potentially at that location knowing they are there? If FT2 needs to move into the ORP, as depicted in your graphic, how quickly might the MG team and FT3 need to cut off their fires to avoid fratricide? My immediate thoughts were to a- find out wtf the situation is and b- find out who needs medical assistance if possible. Navigation would be aweful for sure, I was hoping with orp being a known position the elevation changes would aid in finding our way. Team 3 would not proceed immediately into position, but would hold with team 2 until they could get at least some eyes on the situation. I would hope with radio comms once in position communication was good enough that if needed the heavy guns could lay down fire before, and not while teams 2 and 3 advanced if needed. Tldr; I have no training in this and will likely get you killed
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:46:53 PM EDT
[#45]
Get everybody in one place. Pop smoke, call in an Arc Light and level anthing that isn't your pos. Call evac and head home for some cold brews.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:46:56 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Couple things I see. Ambush isn't necessarily compromised just because the ORP is. That is 200m away in thick vegetation. Is 2 possible casualties enough to call off the mission? We aren't given how critical this mission is in the scenario, but something to think about. I like the idea of your hillside element, but there's no way they will be able to see the ORP that far with thick veg at night. And you're splitting your element to an unknown location with no radio. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/405668/ambush_png-1358964.JPG Brief notes since I'm on my phone: Abandon ambush, surprise is lost. Enemy most likely know they hit ORP of larger element due to packs on ground and can logically assume they are in ambush along road. Right side Mg and fire team 3 head south to blocking positions looking downhill to west towards ORP Left MG and FT1 Bound SW and recon towards ORP, FT2 maintains center position while slowly moving south. They must maintain contact with left and right elements due to night visibility. Contact must be kept between fire teams. Splitting them off into the night is detrimental to combat power. Alert higher HQ of contact, request fires etc.. Couple things I see. Ambush isn't necessarily compromised just because the ORP is. That is 200m away in thick vegetation. Is 2 possible casualties enough to call off the mission? We aren't given how critical this mission is in the scenario, but something to think about. I like the idea of your hillside element, but there's no way they will be able to see the ORP that far with thick veg at night. And you're splitting your element to an unknown location with no radio. @blitzcraig173 My reasoning for the blocking position was more literal. Block forces from moving that direction, I don't expect them to provide cover for the sweep through the ORP due to the terrain. Looking back at distances, I realize my blocking MG cant move to far SE and still maintain contact with FT3. They're responsibility still remains the same though, albeit a tad less effective. edit "I would take 2 fireteams with me to clear the ORP. Leave the most senior team and both 240s on the OBJ. Any senior team leader can effectively run an ambush with 2 guns and another team(249, M320), with claymores set to initiate. I would also consider leaving another 249 gunner for the ambush. I would leave a PACE plan with the TL for if we don't report back in 1 hour. Take the 2 fireteams with me to clear the ORP. If there is contact, we need a base of fire and an assaulting element. *There should've been a radio or at least a signaling device(star cluster) at the We might be getting to deep into the what ifs, my apologies  , but say your element hits a larger force on the way to ORP? What is the PACE plan that the TL at the ambush would then enact? I'm tracking up to that point.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:48:27 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I were expecting enemy traffic to come down the trail from a specific direction, I'd displace the team further down the trail; meaning if I were expecting traffic from the West, I'd move east. If any enemy moving down the trail heard the firing I'd expect them to be on their guard, and perhaps moving down the trail would allow them more time for the adrenaline to wear off and for them to let their guard down a bit. Dumb civvy question: how practical is it to pick up and move armed claymores once they've been set? I assume that if the ambush has been in place for two hours that all that stuff has been emplaced. WRT sending one FT vs 2; I honestly don't know. The difficulties around Option 1 depend entirely on what killed the ORP detail; and if I send 2 teams I'm essentially splitting my force in half in terrain where mutual support, even at close range, is difficult. I don't think a couple hundred meters would make much difference; they'll still be on edge . It won't matter with claymores and 2 240s. It's not that big a deal to displace them. I haven't messed with real ones, but you would pretty much just disarm it and pick it up and re-emplace wherever. Yes, the ambush element will not be able to help in my plan. But sending 1 team is at best going to get you a sitrep for the ORP. 2 teams and I can solve a problem. The 240s will be ineffective in thick veg, so they might as well stay in place. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:50:55 PM EDT
[#48]
Gunfire then ZERO comms with ORP and you're going to send some folks down that way just to see what's what? You're going to get those folks killed just as dead as the ORP guys are.
If I have to go to them, I'll bring up the rest of my platoon and the three fire teams I have to rendezvous at the ORP in force and engage whatever is there, but knowing how Americans are, if I were the bad guy and I've already wasted the ORP, I'd just wait in place and kill whoever shows up. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 2:52:39 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Primary concern with picket distance is signal/comms. Closing gap results in loss of reaction time. Splitting pickets at 25m intervals reduces fields of observation and their security. Ref claymore observation. Assumption is widest part of trail is approx 10m with best case 50m visibility into Southern woodline for 60m possible. Quote HistoryQuoted: Primary concern with picket distance is signal/comms. Closing gap results in loss of reaction time. Splitting pickets at 25m intervals reduces fields of observation and their security. Ref claymore observation. Assumption is widest part of trail is approx 10m with best case 50m visibility into Southern woodline for 60m possible. Is there a real danger in the possibility that your men from the ORP may try to linkup with you and get schwacked by your own unobserved claymores they were unaware of? Quoted: ORP is dead. Assume my ambush has been compromised. Call in as much Arty as I can between my current location and ORP location. Then pull back across the road and dig in to kill any enemy survivors fleeing in my direction. Assuming the firing agency is ok with launching high explosives into an unobserved area, is there a similar issue to the above? If your guys from the ORP are not dead, or are trying to escape to you, could you potentially kill them with unobserved artillery? How long has it been since the small arms fire you heard? Assuming there is an enemy element moving your direction, how much time do you have left to relocate and dig in? Could time constraints prevent you from taking this approach? |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/9/2020 3:01:09 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm non-mil and never called in any sort of sit-rep, but I figured a quick update would not take very long - and given that I have already sat on my fingers for 3 minutes, if the two guys at the ORP are bleeding out then the time I spend on the radio is probably not going to matter much either way when it comes to just stabilizing them. However, having my leadership in the loop may mean that they can be looking at how to get medevac or reinforcements to me while I'm moving back to the ORP and possibly engaging with enemy forces - something I'll probably have to do just to recover the guys at the ORP before I can start giving them any aid. Not blind-siding them with this may mean that they can get resources to me quicker overall. Basically gambling that the time I spend on the radio is not the difference between life and death because if they're going to die in that time, I would not have been able to save them anyway. But the time an early update to leadership could get me on the back end could make a difference. As a general rule I avoid saying someone has the right answer- and I am not speaking for or against your overall plan, but this is very good. I'd like to emphasize the importance of communications. Your radio is mobile, right? So could you actually inform higher without potentially losing any real amount of time at all? Your point bears repeating that notifying higher that you are in trouble allows them to spool up all kinds of help that takes time. As a general rule, if you take contact everyone needs to shoot back first thing- except one guy. A message from a squad leader that takes 1 second can be extraordinarily valuable "(Unit callsign) in contact" or "(Unit callsign) taking fire" instantly, followed by what everyone else is doing, prevents you from getting tunnel vision and forgetting to send it til later, or from getting schwacked before sending a message and higher being left with no idea what is going on. If the scenario posted, you have time for a more thorough message than that, but the principle remains the same. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
