In Goshen IN, the news reported and the dead mans wife stated that he had called the local lazy cops, over an hour before the madman came back to work. Her husband was the object of the attack.  The deranged man had told him he was going home to get a gun and coming back to kill him.
The worthless cops told him that threatening to come to work and kill everybody was not a crime, but if he actually showed up with a gun to call them.  Well, now he is dead and they local Barney commander was replying that, " we did not get THAT phone call."
6 wounded and 1 dead not 35 as first reported, and he used a shotgun.  It took two hours to find a cop with balls enough to go into the building, even with a guy inside on the phone aiding them by giving directions and watching out for the gunman.  
They did hustle on over to the dead guys house and take the rest of his weapons, just in case he rose from the dead or something.
I am thinking if cops were as agressive as fireman lots more crime would be prevented.
Instead they sit and wait until the killer completes his crime the putter on in and take pictures.
The dead guy called and asked them to help before the shooter came back and they did not even try, man that floors me.

This is no surprise, seeing that some LEOs (esp. upper levels chief LEO's) have a duty to only interrupt (LOL) and then act based on a their own political ambitions and risk to themselves are assessed.

Iso

I suppose the laws there don't include Terroristic Threatening? Around here that could be a felony.

I've never been an LEO and faced with danger that could prevent me from living till the end of my shift...but I would like to think that I would be at least as heroic as the circumstances called for at the moment!

I'm thinking about Columbine, particularly, and I was certainly glad to see that the Federal Judge, while throwing out all of the other lawsuits against the school, etc., did allow the lawsuit filed by the dead teacher's daughter against the Sheriff's Dept. to go forward!

The hesitancy that was shown by the Sheriff's office at Columbine that day was [b]criminal![/b]

Eric The(ThisIsNoFlame,Repeat,NoFlame)Hun[>]:)]

We all knew that.  If a guy said that he is going to get a gun to kill me, then I too will get a gun. I ain't waiting for no one to come to save me.

In MA they would've had the entire state police force out based on that call...

Seriously though, if you are scared enough to call the police because someone says they are going to come back and kill you, and the police don't help - why the heck would you not leave???

So the news reports it huh? They also reported 35 wounded. Now they report only 6 and 1 killed. They also reported he used a machine gun didn't they? Typical, hear what you want to hear. Believe what you want to believe. Even after the media makes mistake after mistake you take what suits you and make it the gospel truth. [rolleyes]

This is true.  The local PD knew about it.  We do alot of business with a vendor who's company is only 1 1/2 miles from where this happened. The owner of this company is good friends with the victim and his wife.  He spoke to her last night.  I just got done speaking with him. (Yes, this is second hand but the guy who told me this is stand-up kind of man and would not lie about this.  Neither would I.)

The guy who called the police had [b]three other[/b] employees in his office when he made the call to the PD.  Apparently they didn't know this when they went on TV last night and denied getting the call.  The "S" is going to "HTF" really soon on this one.

BTW - the shooter didn't get fired - he was told to go home and cool off and return in the morning!

The victim's wife had been at the plant around lunchtime after the shooter had been sent home and before he returned.


edited to add:  All you LEO's don't bother flaming me on this "he-said she-said" stuff.  It would be a good idea to wait and see what happens first.  I'll let y'all flame me without nomex if I turn out to be wrong - I'd rather do that than have YOU all apologizing later.  I'm [b]that[/b] sure I'm right.  Thanks.

Good thing this idiot didn't try that here...only way I would have shot him is if I were next to the door he came in...all the other armed assholes around here would have scattered his protoplasm all over the place quick-like.

QS

HI All,

Nomex on.........

I read in another report that another employee that saw the gunman on the way into the bldg. called his wife. Are we sure they are not talking about this call?? And if you see a crime in progress, that you can't stop, why do you call your wife?? Is she GI Jane?

If this acount is true why didn't the victim call thepolice himself?? Why have his wife call?? Or did she call after he told her what happened, and he decided to blow it off?

What lead up to the firing? Was it a case of the fired guy truly being mistreated? Was he fired in a callous way? Was he mentally ill? Or was it all the gunmans fault, get fired?

Police response...... I know that PD's/SO's will respond to threat complaints and will also "stand by" while a possibly violent or unstable subject is being let go from a job. I don't get why they didn't respond to this.

As to the other post..... agressive cops, read the posts here many people think that if they see a cop it is an intrusion on their rights. Tough to be an agressive cop for long with that kind of support.

As far as "rushing in" I think many cops would be all for that. But YOU the citiznes aren't. People don't like cops in gunfights, they always come up with something the cops "should've done", shooting to wound is a good piece of advise. Often the police response isn't a lack of courage, it is the fact the police know that if they use deadly force they will have to deal with the fact they took a life, possible civil or criminal trials, review by the "brass", citizens, and media.

Police administrators don't like to unleash officers for that type of activity due to LIABILITY concerns. Suicide by cop is a concern. Plus what if the police rush in confront the "shooter", shoot and kill him, and find that no one was in immediate danger from the "shooter". I tell you "what if" would be seen as a police plan to kill the suspect, and a blue wall of silence about "what really happened".

Before you fire off an angry response take a second and let my few points sink in. What you are asking is that the cops do things in a way that makes everyone happy. Is that really possible?

Local radio is reporting that their was no 911 call acording to the cops.  The people at the plant said their was, but the cops are claiming their was not.  Goshen is about an hour east of here.

The victim didn't call 911.  It was a regular call to the PD, witnessed by 3 other employees in his office at the time.

You people don't know the amount of money that goes into the highly specialized training these fine officers recieve or the amount of money for their equipment like radios, pistols and body armor. To RISK that investment on a nutball like this...WELL. My gosh, what's the point of taking a job that "chicks dig" if you're going to risk getting peppered with birdshot? just how many chicks would you get then if you had little birdshot scars on your face? HUH?

When people clearly have a propensity to cause harm and murder like this and have high-powered weapons, logic would tell you that the best course of action is to let the unimportant fake-wood workers get hurt and run him out of shotgun-bullets, rather than risk the large investment the community has made in their finest.

Hi a3kid, My first post was being written before your first post posted, wasn't trying to start stuff........

If in doubt call 911. Don't call 911 for directions or the correct time. But if you think a crime is happening or about to happen call 911.

I went to an attempted suicide not to long ago, a female tried to shoot herself with a small caliber handgun while her ex-husband was in the house. He stopped her and took the gun from her. During the struggle she discharged the weapon, the bullet missed but the muzzle blast burned her sweater pretty good. The ex-hubby leaves the house with the gun, drives home (15 minutes or more) and starts calling a detective that had handled a previous investigation with both subjects. Only problem is the detective is off duty, and since it's a Friday night he won't get the message until Moday morning. The ex-hubby says he took all the weapons out of the house. He didn't take any knives, scissors, medications, or her car to name a few........Her next door neighbor ended up calling 911

If you call a PD, to report an in progress, or dangerous situation, use 911 otherwise you have no idea who you'll end up talking to.

Why is it that every time there's a shooting, it was a MACHINE GUN?  Just once, I want to see somebody shoot up a place with an old piece of shit N.E.F. single shot...then see what the media says about that.


Did you see those cops on the news?  For those of you who don't know, Goshen is a little out-of -the-way Amish turd of a town in the middle of nowhere.  Those cops looked like they were dressed for an aircraft takedown, fa Chrissake...and they don't want to go up against some hillbilly with a shotgun?

See above post about 'getting peppered with birdshot'.


QS

We're cool Oly.  I'm sure enough that what I heard is true to risk any and all credibility I've established here in the last year on it.  I hope the guy I talked to isn't full of shit.  He's always been straight up with me, even when his account with our company has been on the line for quality issues.  He's stood tall in the face of problems and been a real [b]MAN[/b] when he at risk of losing a ton of money.  For him to lie is completely out of character.



Maybe he didn't think the threat in itself was an emergency.  Shouldn't the PD have sent somebody there to watch just in case?  We've had a disgruntled employee make the same threats here.  The call we made wasn't a 911 call, and the PD came here for several days, outside and inside the building from the time the first employee arrived to LEO. (last employee out.)  I honestly think this should have been handled this way.  Stop the crazy bastard as soon as he shows up armed - don't wait for him to go in shooting before you respond.  I ain't no LEO - but this sure sounds f'd up to me.

Computer keyboard know-it-alls..It's easy to be brave sitting on your tale at your computer [rolleyes] !!

Cops..Scared and lazy huh ? So far in the last 6 months, My Department has had one officer shot 5 times losing his spleen and part of his intestines and still managed to KILL his attacker, Another FOUR officers shot at the same time with one losing a kidney as they entered a local bar with an active shooter and two shot CITIZENS down, before more officers entered and took the shooter OUT ! I myself along with partners entered an apartment two nights ago with three shooters and one shot male victim and his SHOT TO DEATH girlfriend, and took the shooters in custody (all of which were armed) .

But I guess you guys got it all figured out !

YOU MAKE ME WANT TO FREAKING PUKE !

That's a good description, but it's worse than that.  Goshen is also home of alot of Mennonites.  I'm going to go on one of my religious asides here to add some background to this.  For 3 years I a Mennonite church in my home town that had close ties with Goshen college.  Every kid that went to that church went to Goshen college.  Mennonites are strict pacifists - their mission is peace, period.  I quit going there when the Pastor told me that if he had to choose between letting a robber kill his wife or killing the robber, he'd let his wife die because he knew she was going to heaven.  I'm not labelling all Mennonites this way - I know better than that - but I'm telling you for sure Goshen & my home town church are very close.  They carry pacifism to digusting extremes.  I quite going there and became a radical Conservative Republican Southern Baptist. (RCRSB!)

Well I'm saying if they recieved a cal they SHOULD have sent someone there to investigate, possibly while sending someone else to the suspects house.

But I have no idea who they called. Most 911 centers also answer the "business" or routine type phone lines, they are often recorded as well. But I don't know where the call went.

You would be surprised who people call when they want to talk to law enforcement It often isn't the agency with jurisdiction over the area they are in, believe it or not it is true. 911 takes care of that by most of the time properly "directing" the call. 911 calls often give the dispatcher instant caller id, address, and jurisdiction info. A trianed 911 dispatcher will also be familiar with the PD's dispatch policies, and will often have a means to contact the shift commander or officer in charge if there is a question.

If you call a PD and end up talking to a secretary there is no telling how they might direct your call or attmept to address it.

The vast majority of reponses here have been about [b]those[/b] cops, not all cops.  Calm down and try to be objective here.  Is it possible that local ROE kept the LEO's from entering the building - like in a hostage situation?  Help me understand how this could have happened.  They were definately informed of the threat and didn't respond.

I heard it was an hour before they entered.If it was that is almost criminal.I may not have it all figured out but I could in less than an HOUR.

Did the police know that the shooter didn't have other hostages?

Because I assure you that those of you saying the police should've entered would be singing another tune if the police entered and got into a shoot out with the hostage taker and injured or killed a hostage. Or if the hostage taker detected the entry and executed the hostages before the police could get to him.

I seem to remember many post about SWAT shouldn't do dynamic entries being posted here, and the my small town doesn't need a SWAT team posts.......

At least we agree on something !

It sounds like they didn't.



I alluded to this in my last post.



I have a theory on what might have happened.  It's possible that the PD responded to the first call the victim made in a casual manner that turned out to be deadly.  They may have gone to the scene in a relaxed "We'll check it out to be sure" manner, while the shooter went straight home and came straight back in a "I'm not f'n around" manner.  He could have beat them there when they responded to the [b]first[/b] call they got.  By the time they got there he was already inside shooting - ROE could have kept them from entering (hostages?).  I hope something like this happened, and I'm doing all I can to give them the benefit of the doubt.  

Don't be a dick.  We don't [b]know[/b] what happened yet.  If these cops were pussies like you say - I'll be right there with you.  It ain't time for that yet, though.

I've said they should have checked out a threats complaint from the beginning here. No I don't think a car patrolling the area does anything. They should have gone in and talked to someone. If they did that they should have also considered sending officer(s) to the suspects house to see what his side of this was. They might have been able to stop this before it started or at least figured out something wasn't right when they couldn't locate the suspect.

But my question is about that call. The victim's wife/witnesses say a call was made. There was a report some dope saw the guy on the way into the factory, armed, and decided his best move was to call his wife. The police say they didn't get a call. What if they ARE ALL TELLING THE TRUTH??

What if the local police didn't get a call? What if the victim called another LE agency that didn't have jurisdiction in that area?

Sounds like somebody needs to work on their tactics.  

Don't blame the shooter. Maybe he was just having a bad day. Blame the Cops, the gun, the ammo, the people who made and sold the guns and ammo. The long list of people who made his life miserable. But never, ever the shooter. Don't forget to believe everything the media says as long as it suits you.

Slow down and listen Oly, please.  As soon as the guy made the threats and left the building, the victim made a regular (not 911) call to the local PD to inform them that threats had been made.  He didn't probably didn't consider it an emergency at that time.  (The shooter had left.)



If he did [b]that[/b] he f'd up majorly.  



Negative.  The police said they didn't get a [b]911[/b] call.

quietshooter, rabbit, thanx for your really inappropriate personal attacks. I realize that partially you were responding to his off the cuff post.

How dare either one of you pops off about tactics or attitude with a guy that has faced armed people and "walked the walk". You are both so ready to snipe and put down that you don't care about what is being said.

It also goes to show how well citizens support officers. And you wonder with support like that why some officers don't beleive that citizens support them or why police administrators worry about "liability".

Well in your haste to call someone "barney fife" you just showed you are a "floyd the barber".

A3kid, What I'm saying is, if you say a call was made I BELIEVE YOU. My question is did it go to someone who could do something about the call? Did it go to the proper police agency? Meaning State Patrol, County Sheriff, or local PD. What if he phoned up the State Patrol, and they said that THEY don't investigate threats complaints (meaning he should call the SO or PD). What if the victim decided not to call the PD or SO or was going to call later or was trying to call the shooter's house to see if he was still pissed in the meantime.

I'll see if I can find something about the guy who called home because he saw a gun. This guy is supposedly just some other employee NOT one of the vicitim(s).

Oly, so you're saying when in doubt call 911.  What has me so interested in this thread is that I would probably have done what the victim did when the threats were made, make a regular call to the local PD and report the threats.  We've all been told to use 911 for emergency calls only.  Granted, this turned into a 911 situation but [b]at the time the initial call was made[/b], IMHO it wasn't.  

FWIW - telling me you're going to go home, get a gun and come back and kill me = signing your own death warrant.  I will not be waiting for your return unarmed.  I won't f'n run either.  If you've got it in for me we'll settle right away when you come back armed on [b]MY[/b] terms when I [b]KNOW[/b] you're coming.  None of this "run away and look over my shoulder for the rest of my life" crap.  I would have done what the victim did first.  Standard call to local PD inform of threats.  Arm myself w/ sidearm (preferably shotgun)& cell phone until the PD show up.  If bg gets here first, make 911 call and engage at the first opportunity.  If PD gets here first, turn situation over to them.  (I'd still have my sidearm nearby, I'd keep that knowledge to myself though.)

Oly,

I get quite weary of LEOs constantly defending the actions of other LEOs even when those actions are patently ridiculous.  

"How dare either one of you pops off about tactics or attitude with a guy that has faced armed people and "walked the walk". You are both so ready to snipe and put down that you don't care about what is being said."

Actually, see above statement.  As for his experience vs. mine, either or both of us could be full of shit...which is why I don't post 'THERE I WAS!' stories on the web.  As someone recently said, arguing on the Internet is like running in the Special Olympics.  Even if you win, you're still retarded.

Suffice it to say that I am as qualified to comment on their tactics as anyone.

Thanks!



I can't give you a definitive answer.  The party he spoke with did tell him that "threatening to get a gun etc, isn't a crime (WTF?).  If he comes back call us."





I don't know Oly - the unanswered questions here are driving me crazy, 'cause I would have done what the victim did.  (Wouldn't have sat there unarmed though - wonder if he was a Mennonite?  See previous posts.)

Yes when in doubt call 911. In most areas the same dispatchers answer both business and emergency call. But a 911 call gives them added info and gets it assesed quicker. Also a 911 call usually get directed to the proper police agency, if not a dispatch center can quickly transfer the call. In all but the largest cities 911 "congestion" isn't a problem.

Don't call 911 for directions, winter parking regulations, the correct time, a tow truck, a taxi etc. You wouldn't believe some of the calls 911 gets. "squirels are running on the phone lines, I think they are damaging the wires, can you come out and shoot them?"

Please I didn't threaten you, can I stop looking over my shoulder??????? [peep]

I hope, as I have read in news reports, that the cops didn't wait an hour to go in:

If they did, then they, and their superiors learned nothing from Columbine.

If they did wait, then they need more training, and an attitude adjustment.

Jay
Arizona

No, I think if you read the posts I didn't have a problem answering questions about this incident from my point of view. I also said the original threats should have been checked out. LAcop popped off, in response to some of the blanket posts calling LEO's chickens. He was slapped for that and calmed down. The posts about LEO's being chickens simmered to and some of us were trting to post constructively.

[red]Then you and rabbit showed up and launched a personal attack. That was uncalled for. That is, was, and will be my point.[/red]

If you want to discuss this topic or other I welcome ya'. If you are here to launch personal attacks I have no use for you.

I am in Comanche County I work For the Sheriff's Dept.....

lets see Ft. Sill, OK. largest artillery base and Artillery training center in the "WORLD"
Lawton, OK
plus a bunch of small towns.......
total about 200,000 people

averge number of deputies on shift 3
1 supervisor 2 deputies

averge number of officers in the Jail 3 (houses 200 inmates)we need about 800 more beds and th ejail capacity is 104(its an old jail) they are currently building a new one to house 265) but the old one will shut down we will still need about 735 more beds.

plus 1 and only 1 dispatcher.

we have to by our own gear. we have to buy our own vests. our own weapon and ammo plus anything else you could imagine that a LEO needs

starting pay of...
Jail Officer $1000.00
Deputy $1250.00

now support a family make a car and house payment plus bills where in that is there money to get all that High-Speed-Low-Drag stuff?

This isnt holiwood this isnt big City USA..This is reality and if we didnt make the sacrifice and work there, who would?......so yes we look for better paying jobs and yes we strive to better ourselves. but somebodys got to do it...and the media always seems to twist the truth.

so to people like QuietSHoter and Rabbit thanks for your support.

Didn't make myself clear. ::laughing::

I was trying to say that I wouldn't run in fear from someone who would be stupid enough to say something like that.  I'd handle it then so [b]I didn't[/b] have to live watching over [b]MY[/b] shoulder.

OK, First off I am a LEO (Gasp!) and I wish to give my 0.2 worth.  "Disclaimer: The jury is still out on this situation.  I do not wish to discuss if a call was made or not. I am speaking strictly about tactics and entry in a potential hostage situation"

On any call received where there may be a hostage situation, entry is not an option for the regular patrol officer(unless you are immediately faced with the armed bad guy).  

You can thank civilians and politicians for this rule.

The patrol officer's job is to set up a secure perimeter, and try to gather intelligence.(Restrict entry and exit)  . And Yes this may take an hour! The hostage negotiation team and the Special response team is then given authority over the situation.

I can guarantee that if LEO's had stormed the place and gotten a hostage killed, some of you guys would be pissing and gripping about how the LEO's handled it.  

Some people(such as SOME of the folks here) will complain regardless of what the LEO's do.(Sure call us a pussy and talk trash about how you are going to "take care of yourself>"  Blah Blah Blah)  The majority(NOT ALL) of the complainers are guys who would NEVER have the courage, judgment, or the balls to do half of the things that they say that they would do given the opportunity to be faced in a similar situation.

Many are also either disgruntled people that have had very little contact with LEO's except while being arrested or given a traffic citation.  References to Barney Fife and other TV cops only further prove that the person speaking is uninformed about law enforcement in general. (Read ingnorance is Bliss)

It is much easier to type out your dynamic entry than it is to be there and try to save lives.

In my opinion, Anti Law Enforcement rhetoric is much the same as Anti Military and Anti American rhetoric.  It is usually spoken my extreme left/right wing, spoiled, idiots that would rather "fight" for a looney idealistic cause (any nutball cause: ie Pita, anti war movement, extreme environmentalist etc) and be against the government, instead of investigating the truth and fighting for what is right(politically, morally spiritually etc). (And don't give me any morale relativism BS about how there is no absolute right or wrong)

This was not intended to be a flame on anyone in particular, but Like a previous writer, I sometimes want to puke when I hear some of the Laptop Swat Ninjas speak their ingnorant gibberish.

God Bless America

Kai

Quietshootr,

In the past the LEA response to a shooting incident has been contain the scene, keep the shooter from escaping. Evacuate anybody that can be evecuated safely. Begin negotiations with the "shooter". Talk until the shooter comes out.

This scheme was formulated because, it's effective, it's defensable in Court and it minimizes the chance of the police shooting a hostage, shooting the suspect, or getting shot. It also lessens the chance of the hostage taker killing the hostages if the police attempt to enter.

The problem with it, if a hostage is wounded they may die if they don't get evacuated. The hostage taker may be able to find an avenue of escape. The hostage taker may decide to shoot the hostages anyway.

After Columbine the protocol was modified so that if the police arrive and there is a "shooter" (a person activley shooting) the police will wait just until they have enough officers, no perimeter, and enter and engage the shooter.

Every situation is different. The police don't want to "force" a situation and take the blame for what the BG is "forced" to do. Nor do they want a "friendly fire incident". They probably don't want to shoot the shooter either. Look at the North Hollywood shoot out. If there was ever a case that the police were right to use deadly force this was it. They still got sued.

This horse is dead.  Any further beating will only serve to tenderize the meat.

Some LEOs are chickenshit assholes who don't deserve the power they have.

Some are outstanding, well trained paragons of virtue that you'd be proud to have as a son-in-law.  

I just wonder why the second group tends to defend the first.
[smoke]
QS
11B

I have to 2nd this.

Not to be anti-LEO that was what I was in school for(untill I saw what sorry asses the old timers are)They tell new cops to cover there butts and not put it on the line for anything.......................they laughed at me when I said something about protecting people and there rights,pretty stupid I gess[rolleyes]

Actually the "new and improved training" that is now being taught to us(but can only be used if you have been trained) is the 4 badge rule.  The first 4 officers that arrive are to immediately go in the facility and "neutralize" the bad guy.  The next 4 officers are to do search and rescue.

I like this new way better, but it will take some time to get everyone trained in this method.  (Training and Standards says all officers involved must be trained in this method before it can be used)

So far, the worst complaint from instructors have been that the officers tried to negotiate too long instead of just killing the bad guy and moving on.
(Takes awhile to remove the PC from the tactics I guess)

Kai

Things would be a whole lot different if the laws on personal injury were what they were historically!

There would never be any lawsuits against PDs simply for what its actions MAY have caused a criminal to do! Period!

And until we get this genie back into the bottle, we will face a paralysis of action!

Eric The(IfTheLawSupposesThat,Well,TheLawIsAnAss!)Hun[>]:)]

I'm not trying to defend what they did, especially since it appears they dropped the ball on the original threats complaint. (I keep posting that, but no one seems to read it, is my computer ok?)

But what I would say is that once the shooting took place you have to make careful decisions so that you don't make the situation WORSE. To call the officers cowards based on the info available seems to be a knee jerk reaction.