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Posted: 12/7/2001 7:43:13 AM EDT
[#1]
Kai,
That's exactly what I was referring to. Why, when I brought it up, was I referred to as a 'keyboard ninja', but according to what you're saying, it's now becoming policy? [>:/] QS |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 7:47:15 AM EDT
[#2]
Paratrooper, what happens if once you enter the bldg. the shootings stops, before you contact the BG??
I've heard two options 1) reset to get a perimeter, keeping the area you have and evacuating any wounded that can be safely removed. 2) Search mode, just becasue the shooting stopped the threat din't. |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 7:49:33 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: Kai, That's exactly what I was referring to. Why, when I brought it up, was I referred to as a 'keyboard ninja', but according to what you're saying, it's now becoming policy? [>:/] QS Because it only applies to a situation where the BG is actively shooting. If the BG isn't shooting it's perimeter and negotiator. |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 7:52:38 AM EDT
[#4]
QuietShootr- I did not mean to be personal...I was just pissed sorry.
Oly.. The answer is we keep on task. He is to be neutralized. End of story. Fleeing Felon rule in NC..... Kai |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 7:55:33 AM EDT
[#5]
Sounds to me like the BG in this case was actively shooting right up until the shot into his brain housing group. In any event, how do you know if he's quit shooting or is simply searching for more targets? It's not sound tactics to advance to contact then withdraw before accomplishing the objective.
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Posted: 12/7/2001 7:58:10 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: QuietShootr- I did not mean to be personal...I was just pissed sorry. Oly.. The answer is we keep on task. He is to be neutralized. End of story. Fleeing Felon rule in NC..... Kai Well legaly I think we rely on slightly different reasoning but the result is the same. There is another agency in the area appx. the same size (350) that if the shooting stops they go to perimeter immediatley. When we were trained in "active shooter" we were warned about the difference in training. If we have a mixed team we were told if it is their primary do what they direct unless you feel you have to take other action. If they are in our area and decide to stop when the BG stops shooting, drive on without them if they try to go to perimeter mode. |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 7:59:04 AM EDT
[#7]
Exactly, Kai, that's what I thought. Once the entry has been initiated you'd continue until the situation has been resolved.
QS |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 8:04:00 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: Sounds to me like the BG in this case was actively shooting right up until the shot into his brain housing group. In any event, how do you know if he's quit shooting or is simply searching for more targets? It's not sound tactics to advance to contact then withdraw before accomplishing the objective. Was he still shooting when the police arrived? Part of "active shooter" is ignoring things like cover, you advance to contact and engage while on the move. You move as a group and don't stop moving until the BG is neutralized. That means your protection from being shot is to shoot better, faster than the BG. It's tough to pull of convincingly unless you've had some practice with the people you may team up with....... |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 8:06:44 AM EDT
[#9]
Oly,
Indeed, that's true. But if you haven't trained in movement under fire, etc..with other members of your SWAT team, that would seem to indicate a training deficiency, no? Edited to add - I don't think I'd ignore cover in any case. [:D] |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 8:20:14 AM EDT
[#10]
SWAT team?? I'm talking about patrol officers. Yes I have been trained, but being trained and being practiced are 2 different things. Also "active shooter" involves teaming up with the first 4 officers on scene, moving as a team (team leader(point) left cover, right cover, and rear guard) quickly to contact. No 3-5 second rushes, almost a jog, as a group, with one person walking backwards, toward where the gunfire is coming from.
Think about it, it's kinda tough to do. The idea is as quickly as possible get to the BG so he stops shooting GG's. Going cover to cover slows you down. Plus inside most building there is very little cover just concrealment. THe team sticks together to try to keep the possibilty of "friendly fire" down. Tough to shot your teammembers if your shoulders are touching. Plus if its done right the front 3 on the team are all firing at the BG, at the same time. |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 8:56:10 AM EDT
[#11]
On the subject of why the police waited an hour before going on, blablablabla. I can tell you as a police supervisor that I would not let any of my guys go into that building in that situation. That is what we have a SWAT team for. Our job is to set up the perimeter,evacuate, etc. and wait on SWAT. It has nothing to do with being a coward. Is has everything to do with all of things OlyM4gery was saying, liability, etc. I would have my ass handed to me on a sling by the administration if i let a couple of patrol officers go into that building and have some of the results that OlyM4gery described occur. I wish that I had some of you John Wayne types on scen with me though. Then everything would be alright. Geeezzz.
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Posted: 12/7/2001 9:06:49 AM EDT
[#12]
Aw shucks, then... just let some people die. What's a few lives, anyway, when they're weighed against the importance of following SOP.
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Posted: 12/7/2001 9:15:36 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: Aw shucks, then... just let some people die. What's a few lives, anyway, when they're weighed against the importance of following SOP. Well not following SOP gets me fired. Following it lets me keep my job. Guess which one I will choose. |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 9:20:40 AM EDT
[#14]
That's a very illuminating admission, on many levels.
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Posted: 12/7/2001 9:24:05 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: Things would be a whole lot different if the laws on personal injury were what they were historically! There would never be any lawsuits against PDs simply for what its actions MAY have caused a criminal to do! Period! And until we get this genie back into the bottle, we will face a paralysis of action! Eric The(IfTheLawSupposesThat,Well,TheLawIsAnAss!)Hun[>]:)] Hey Eric! We agree on something! Paratrooper's tactics sound right on. |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 9:24:11 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: That's a very illuminating admission, on many levels. I agree, it's called reality. |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 9:25:49 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: Quoted: That's a very illuminating admission, on many levels. I agree, it's called reality. Would you enforce a law you believed was unconstitutional to keep your job? |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 9:27:59 AM EDT
[#18]
Wait on SWAT? Lord, whatever did we do before we got SWAT?
I can still remember the photos from the 1966 University of Texas - Charles Whitman shootout! There were pickups all over the place, where good old boys spilled out onto the campus and were shooting at the gunman on top of the tower, with their deer rifles! Who knows whether or not they were the reason Charles Whitman was so preoccupied that he failed to notice the Policeman and the citizen who took it upon themselves to rush the gunman? Eric The(ThatShouldHaveBeenMentionedByTheDIIn'FullMetalJacket')Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 9:31:44 AM EDT
[#19]
Post from libertyof76 -
Hey Eric! We agree on something! Most likely, we agree on 95% of most things! Hell, I don't agree with Miz Hun near that much! Eric The(ButDon'tTellHerThat!...'No,Ma'am,I'mNotStillOnTheInternet!'...shhhh)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 9:34:19 AM EDT
[#20]
Eric, you are an attorney, are you not?
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Posted: 12/7/2001 9:36:02 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: Wait on SWAT? Lord, whatever did we do before we got SWAT? I can still remember the photos from the 1966 University of Texas - Charles Whitman shootout! There were pickups all over the place, where good old boys spilled out onto the campus and were shooting at the gunman on top of the tower, with their deer rifles! Who knows whether or not they were the reason Charles Whitman was so preoccupied that he failed to notice the Policeman and the citizen who took it upon themselves to rush the gunman? Eric The(ThatShouldHaveBeenMentionedByTheDIIn'FullMetalJacket')Hun[>]:)] And today those same guys would be getting sued by bottom feeders a mile away saying they were afraid for their lives and they heard bullet hitting the ground near thier house. Not to mention that the majority of people would keep walking, saying stuff like "I didn't see anything", "Why should I get involved he wasn't shooting at me", or "I wonder if I can sue the city for failing to keep the clock tower locked up, so nuts can't climb it and scare me". |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 9:38:56 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: "I wonder if I can sue the city for failing to keep the clock tower locked up, so nuts can't climb it and scare me". That's so true and pathetic that it's funny. LMAO! |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 9:50:30 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That's a very illuminating admission, on many levels. I agree, it's called reality. Would you enforce a law you believed was unconstitutional to keep your job? Yes I would. Why you ask? Because I believe it to be unconstitutional doesn not mean it is. I am not a legislator, lawyer, or judge. Just an LEO who enforces the laws on the books. The legislators pass the laws, the lawyers throw in their crap, and the judges interpret the laws. I don't. However I will say that it is good working in a state with very few gun laws which is nice. As far as I am concerned this country would be a hell of lot better if every person walked down the street with a gun strapped to his side. But I digress. |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 9:54:32 AM EDT
[#24]
OTOH, if it were made mandatory that all citizens get a tat with their ID number on it on penalty of jail time....
screw it...this is utterly pointless. QS out |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 9:57:33 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: OTOH, if it were made mandatory that all citizens get a tat with their ID number on it on penalty of jail time.... screw it...this is utterly pointless. QS out I hear ya........ |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 10:06:46 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: OTOH, if it were made mandatory that all citizens get a tat with their ID number on it on penalty of jail time.... screw it...this is utterly pointless. QS out No I wouldn't enforce that one. I ignore laws all the time that are violated because they aren't worth the time or effort to enforce. What I was trying to get across to a3kid was a general answer to his question which was just becaus I personally think it's a bad law or not would i enforce it. The problem here is your lawmakers not me. And that goes even further to voter turnout, etc. and I could go on and on. But I am through here as well. |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 10:26:14 AM EDT
[#27]
OK...I am better now..I was pissed earlier..No offense a3kid..
It was a long shift last night, and I should have got some zzzzzzzz's first ! |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 10:56:10 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: The worthless cops told him that threatening to come to work and kill everybody was not a crime. I California it would be a violation of CPC 422 "terrorist threats", but only if the jury ruled it was a credible threat and the victim reasonably fear for their safety at the time the threat was made. Bad examples: Someone shakes their fist at you, yells "I'll kill you", but then runs away. Not Terrorist Threats. No immediacy and credible threat. Police and victims abuse CPC422 and we are gonna lose it some day. Can only imagine what Indiana law is on threats. As for putting a cop in the factory for a few days? That is what private security is for. A cop sitting at your shop is a cop who is not patrolling his assigned neighborhood. Did they call the non-emergency line? maybe, and all calls are prioritised. a threat considered non emergency by the victim, would be dispatched after things like car crashes, fights, domestics, ect. "hostage" Vs. "Active shooter". Hardest part is knowing what you have. Have to assume hostage if you can hear or see the shooter. |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 11:21:43 AM EDT
[#29]
Ok...since the other thread was locked....let me
voice my opinion in this one. Can all of the uniformed-civilians (citizens-on-patrol) get together and get their stories straight. A while ago , we were discussing the shooting in California at a party......And all the jbt's said he was right in shooting him....in a crowd. Now we have jbt's that do not want to shoot anybody and again they are right.......which way is it going to be? |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 11:28:41 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: OK...I am better now..I was pissed earlier..No offense a3kid.. It was a long shift last night, and I should have got some zzzzzzzz's first ! No offense taken man! I had some issues with what happened and I wanted to try to work through them. I enjoy a good flame war as much as anybody - but I wanted to keep this thread on the positive side. Peace. |
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Posted: 12/7/2001 12:00:14 PM EDT
[#31]
I think a good Cop gets kicked around worse than an old Sheepdog and a bad Cop deserves it. I think the problems originate at a much higher level and I really don't have any answers but I know we don't need any more laws and there are way to many Lawyers.
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Posted: 12/7/2001 1:18:00 PM EDT
[#32]
All I have to say is one thing: In Israel, when some nut shoots up a place, he is shot dead. None of this "The suspect is holed up and negotiators are being called in" crap. They are fricken shot dead. I wonder if Hebrew even has a word for "standoff" :)
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Posted: 12/7/2001 7:42:52 PM EDT
[#33]
Well I read a lot of the rants and I must admit the Cop-NAZI reaction from a few LEO's on this was to be expected.
Maybe you can't in LA, but everywhere else in the world the police stations have other phone numbers. If you are having a problem that is not an emergency you can call the duty desk or in our town "Crime Check". As far as the hostage crap, I saw the police spokeman on TV, he clearly stated that they had a person inside, giving them directions and reporting clearly on the problem. So, there was no dynamic shooting entry with hostages. That is a cop bullshit story to keep from working. I am sure being in LA or being undermanned in Oklahoma is not a lot of fun. Everything is not bigtime terrorist event, somethings can be resolved with a little common sense and a simple presence. I can't stand that wait till the hostages die attitude and that I am the defender of humanity and all non-cops should be subject to my every whim crap. If you dont like the risk or the idea of "honest citizens" questioning your actions then go sell insurance. Everybody is subject to review, including cops, if you let people die because of your inaction get used to it. |
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