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Posted: 4/19/2014 11:28:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2014 11:36:51 AM EDT by Currahee]
If you have been following my plate carrier experience, I continued the testing today. I am a 100% believer in train with what you plan to use, this is especially true with a plate carrier as it affects your balance and all elements of weapon manipulation. So far I have run my Banshee plus steel plates around the house, chores mowing etc, lots of pushups and burpees and I made a vid of me doing a fitshot session in it.

I have added a couple of pouches, moved my TQ and got shoulder pads. The shoulder strap situation is a weakness of the Banshee, because I have to open it up enough that the straps are all that is on my shoulder. I'm confident shouldering my rifle in any situation except standard prone.

The match included a couple of 50M runs, firing from multiple positions w/primary and secondary weapons and pulling a weighted rope of 25M. All told I wore the banshee for three hours, which is my longest time not sitting down with them on. I did not do the set up and take down with it on (which is kind of chicken shit because I do that when I'm testing a new chest rig.) I did not shirk my RO duties and ran each stage multiple times with the PACT.

I have to say it really wasn't that bad. I mean I already PT a good bit for a 40something, but it is doable so far- need to find a situation when I can wear them for longer. I shot two stages after the match clean- 1st line only and there was about a 5% time improvement, which I don't consider that big a deal. If I had to climb ten flights of states or run a mile first there would be a much bigger difference.

Link Posted: 4/19/2014 12:45:08 PM EDT
Holy improper armor placement, Batman.

If you need to drop the pocket that far down to get what you consider a proper shouldering of your rifle, you need to adjust your stance or change your gear.
Link Posted: 4/19/2014 12:51:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2014 12:51:55 PM EDT by di1uted]
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Originally Posted By toki:
Holy improper armor placement, Batman.

If you need to drop the pocket that far down to get what you consider a proper shouldering of your rifle, you need to adjust your stance or change your gear.
View Quote


Yep armor looks ~3" low

Work on getting used to putting the stock on your plate maybe
Link Posted: 4/19/2014 12:52:52 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By toki:
Holy improper armor placement, Batman.

If you need to drop the pocket that far down to get what you consider a proper shouldering of your rifle, you need to adjust your stance or change your gear.
View Quote


I had just put them back on after shooting the stages clean. They ride right
Link Posted: 4/19/2014 3:01:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2014 4:40:15 PM EDT by robbf213]
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Originally Posted By Currahee:


I had just put them back on after shooting the stages clean. They ride right
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Originally Posted By Currahee:
Originally Posted By toki:
Holy improper armor placement, Batman.

If you need to drop the pocket that far down to get what you consider a proper shouldering of your rifle, you need to adjust your stance or change your gear.


I had just put them back on after shooting the stages clean. They ride right


What do you call right? The carrier shouldn't shift that much, way too low. I keep a TQ In the same place.

Read this, good info
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?85112-Proper-Wear-of-Armor-(with-anatomical-diagrams)
Link Posted: 4/19/2014 4:05:38 PM EDT
Steel plates are survivable but ceramic will make life that much more easy.
Link Posted: 4/19/2014 7:55:39 PM EDT
I haven't worn mine that much, but in the past I did a lot of PT with mine. While hitting an 80lb boxing bag I did a knee that put the top of the plate into my chin and I went down like glass-jaw Joe.

And heavy PCs are WAY nicer for PT than a floppy backpack.
Link Posted: 4/19/2014 9:48:00 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Spartikis:
Steel plates are survivable but ceramic will make life that much more easy.
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Steel is like hanging a 500 Brinell gong around your neck. You're gonna get a lot of fragmentation into your chin and upper neck.
Link Posted: 4/19/2014 10:18:39 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By robbf213:


What do you call right? The carrier shouldn't shift that much, way too low. I keep a TQ In the same place.

Read this, good info
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?85112-Proper-Wear-of-Armor-(with-anatomical-diagrams)
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Originally Posted By robbf213:
Originally Posted By Currahee:
Originally Posted By toki:
Holy improper armor placement, Batman.

If you need to drop the pocket that far down to get what you consider a proper shouldering of your rifle, you need to adjust your stance or change your gear.


I had just put them back on after shooting the stages clean. They ride right


What do you call right? The carrier shouldn't shift that much, way too low. I keep a TQ In the same place.

Read this, good info
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?85112-Proper-Wear-of-Armor-(with-anatomical-diagrams)


I have read that and my carrier sits correctly, and doesn't shift. I just have to pull the front up after I fasten the cummerbund, and I didn't do that since I just put it on for the pic.
Link Posted: 4/19/2014 10:19:42 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By tweeter:


Steel is like hanging a 500 Brinell gong around your neck. You're gonna get a lot of fragmentation into your chin and upper neck.
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Originally Posted By tweeter:
Originally Posted By Spartikis:
Steel plates are survivable but ceramic will make life that much more easy.


Steel is like hanging a 500 Brinell gong around your neck. You're gonna get a lot of fragmentation into your chin and upper neck.


You know they coat for that now right?
Link Posted: 4/19/2014 11:03:52 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Currahee:


You know they coat for that now right?
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Originally Posted By Currahee:
Originally Posted By tweeter:
Originally Posted By Spartikis:
Steel plates are survivable but ceramic will make life that much more easy.


Steel is like hanging a 500 Brinell gong around your neck. You're gonna get a lot of fragmentation into your chin and upper neck.


You know they coat for that now right?


Unless I was too tired for my own good when I read this elsewhere on the internetz, I think some guys are spraying truck bedliner onto AR500 plates for this as a "redneck-tactical" spall reduction coating?
Link Posted: 4/20/2014 5:55:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2014 6:00:09 AM EDT by lew]
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Originally Posted By Foxnews_FTW:


Unless I was too tired for my own good when I read this elsewhere on the internetz, I think some guys are spraying truck bedliner onto AR500 plates for this as a "redneck-tactical" spall reduction coating?
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Originally Posted By Foxnews_FTW:
Originally Posted By Currahee:
Originally Posted By tweeter:
Originally Posted By Spartikis:
Steel plates are survivable but ceramic will make life that much more easy.


Steel is like hanging a 500 Brinell gong around your neck. You're gonna get a lot of fragmentation into your chin and upper neck.


You know they coat for that now right?


Unless I was too tired for my own good when I read this elsewhere on the internetz, I think some guys are spraying truck bedliner onto AR500 plates for this as a "redneck-tactical" spall reduction coating?


Yeah, the spall protection from bedliner is not very confidence-inspiring. Seeing to the fact that there's not much but soft tissue in between the front surface of the plate, some major blood vessels in your neck, I'd think twice about steel.

OP, in case you weren't aware, the top of the front plate should be at the level of your suprasternal notch (the dip at the top center of your sternum that provides clearance for your windpipe). The top of the rear plate should be level with your C7 vertebrae, i.e. the one that sticks out the most at the base of your neck.

ETA: Unless you plan on rotating out the TQ occasionally or don't use your carrier much, a TQ pouch is a great idea. Tourniquets will degrade when exposed to the elements.
Link Posted: 4/20/2014 6:06:51 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By lew:


Yeah, the spall protection from bedliner is not very confidence-inspiring. Seeing to the fact that there's not much but soft tissue in between the front surface of the plate, some major blood vessels in your neck, I'd think twice about steel.

I am confident in the fragmentation protection lasting through more hits than similarly priced ceramic plates (and maybe HQ ceramic) will even stop penetration.

OP, in case you weren't aware, the top of the front plate should be at the level of your suprasternal notch (the dip at the top center of your sternum that provides clearance for your windpipe). The top of the rear plate should be level with your C7 vertebrae, i.e. the one that sticks out the most at the base of your neck.

This was addressed

ETA: Unless you plan on rotating out the TQ occasionally or don't use your carrier much, a TQ pouch is a great idea. Tourniquets will degrade when exposed to the elements.

I keep spare TQs, that is my "training TQ" which I practice with

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Originally Posted By lew:
Originally Posted By Foxnews_FTW:
Originally Posted By Currahee:
Originally Posted By tweeter:
Originally Posted By Spartikis:
Steel plates are survivable but ceramic will make life that much more easy.


Steel is like hanging a 500 Brinell gong around your neck. You're gonna get a lot of fragmentation into your chin and upper neck.


You know they coat for that now right?


Unless I was too tired for my own good when I read this elsewhere on the internetz, I think some guys are spraying truck bedliner onto AR500 plates for this as a "redneck-tactical" spall reduction coating?


Yeah, the spall protection from bedliner is not very confidence-inspiring. Seeing to the fact that there's not much but soft tissue in between the front surface of the plate, some major blood vessels in your neck, I'd think twice about steel.

I am confident in the fragmentation protection lasting through more hits than similarly priced ceramic plates (and maybe HQ ceramic) will even stop penetration.

OP, in case you weren't aware, the top of the front plate should be at the level of your suprasternal notch (the dip at the top center of your sternum that provides clearance for your windpipe). The top of the rear plate should be level with your C7 vertebrae, i.e. the one that sticks out the most at the base of your neck.

This was addressed

ETA: Unless you plan on rotating out the TQ occasionally or don't use your carrier much, a TQ pouch is a great idea. Tourniquets will degrade when exposed to the elements.

I keep spare TQs, that is my "training TQ" which I practice with


Link Posted: 4/20/2014 7:39:36 AM EDT
i don't see why every reply is harping on the pc placement. the op addressed it. let it go. im more interested in his report. according to his post he just did 3 hours of training with his gear and wanted to post an after action. seems relevant, modestly priced plates in a popular pc...

how did they feel?
how was ventilation or were you a sweaty mess as soon as you put the pc on?
did the pc chafe anywhere you didnt notice until it was on for a couple hours?
shooters cut? did you have any problems shouldering and getting good sight alignment? answered in op...
anything come loose repeatedly over time?
anything else annoying?
Link Posted: 4/20/2014 7:46:12 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Currahee:...

I am confident in the fragmentation protection lasting through more hits than similarly priced ceramic plates (and maybe HQ ceramic) will even stop penetration....
View Quote


Brother, if you think spray-on epoxy bedliner is going to stop jacket material moving at over 1000 FPS, you're simply not thinking things through.
It's your neck, but it's something to consider: I use/have used a small soft ballistic panel in a utility pouch at the top of even ceramic plates.
Link Posted: 4/20/2014 7:47:04 AM EDT
Good on the OP for actually getting out and trying his gear.

I have some coated steel plates in a condor plate carrier just to see how the ultra-low budget stuff works. Went to the range for a few hours (during 100 degree weather I might add) and did usual range stuff with them on. Worked fine and I wasn't any more fatigued than if I was using an IOTV with all plates in. 20 pounds for armor isn't that much. Only issue I was having is the steel is so thin it doesn't fit in the plate carrier as well as I would want, so I added some closed cell mat to it and it works a lot better.
Link Posted: 4/20/2014 8:19:19 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By tweeter:


Brother, if you think spray-on epoxy bedliner is going to stop jacket material moving at over 1000 FPS, you're simply not thinking things through.
It's your neck, but it's something to consider: I use/have used a small soft ballistic panel in a utility pouch at the top of even ceramic plates.
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Originally Posted By tweeter:
Originally Posted By Currahee:...

I am confident in the fragmentation protection lasting through more hits than similarly priced ceramic plates (and maybe HQ ceramic) will even stop penetration....


Brother, if you think spray-on epoxy bedliner is going to stop jacket material moving at over 1000 FPS, you're simply not thinking things through.
It's your neck, but it's something to consider: I use/have used a small soft ballistic panel in a utility pouch at the top of even ceramic plates.


The coating works to stop fragmentation. It's effectiveness is reduced after multiple hits, but unlike ceramics, rounds still don't typically go through the plates.
Link Posted: 4/20/2014 10:40:27 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By tweeter:


Brother, if you think spray-on epoxy bedliner is going to stop jacket material moving at over 1000 FPS, you're simply not thinking things through.
It's your neck, but it's something to consider: I use/have used a small soft ballistic panel in a utility pouch at the top of even ceramic plates.
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Originally Posted By tweeter:
Originally Posted By Currahee:...

I am confident in the fragmentation protection lasting through more hits than similarly priced ceramic plates (and maybe HQ ceramic) will even stop penetration....


Brother, if you think spray-on epoxy bedliner is going to stop jacket material moving at over 1000 FPS, you're simply not thinking things through.
It's your neck, but it's something to consider: I use/have used a small soft ballistic panel in a utility pouch at the top of even ceramic plates.


There are numerous videos floating around that show the bed liner is very effective for multiple hits. Yes it will start to degrade, but so will ceramic. I have also see videos where pick up trucks are used as IED's and the only thing left in tact is the bed with bed liner. Another show made cinder block structures and one was sprayed on the back side with bed liner. A VBIED was then placed on the outside of the wall. The sprayed wall suffered no spalling through the bed liner.
Link Posted: 4/20/2014 12:39:09 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By clayvt:
...
There are numerous videos floating around that show the bed liner is very effective for multiple hits. Yes it will start to degrade, but so will ceramic. I have also see videos where pick up trucks are used as IED's and the only thing left in tact is the bed with bed liner. Another show made cinder block structures and one was sprayed on the back side with bed liner. A VBIED was then placed on the outside of the wall. The sprayed wall suffered no spalling through the bed liner.
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Well, that seals the deal for me... I'm getting body armor made out of bed-liner.
Link Posted: 4/20/2014 12:58:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2014 1:35:21 PM EDT by Currahee]
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Originally Posted By tweeter:


Well, that seals the deal for me... I'm getting body armor made out of bed-liner.
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Originally Posted By tweeter:
Originally Posted By clayvt:
...
There are numerous videos floating around that show the bed liner is very effective for multiple hits. Yes it will start to degrade, but so will ceramic. I have also see videos where pick up trucks are used as IED's and the only thing left in tact is the bed with bed liner. Another show made cinder block structures and one was sprayed on the back side with bed liner. A VBIED was then placed on the outside of the wall. The sprayed wall suffered no spalling through the bed liner.


Well, that seals the deal for me... I'm getting body armor made out of bed-liner.


If your only purpose is to build yourself up against an absurd strawman argument why do you even bother to post in a thread? Do you have any actual input? Have you tested the stuff yourself (you do realize the build up is on top of steel right?) Do you have any meaningful input at all or are you just defending your own little preconcieved notion?

I'm always willing to look at new information supported by confirmable data.

Otherwise I will continue looking for my own data, doing my own testing and sharing the results with those who are interested, if you are not please feel free to ignore.
Link Posted: 4/20/2014 1:06:38 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Kolonij2:
i don't see why every reply is harping on the pc placement. the op addressed it. let it go. im more interested in his report. according to his post he just did 3 hours of training with his gear and wanted to post an after action. seems relevant, modestly priced plates in a popular pc...

how did they feel?
I was remarkably pleased with the feel the only time I noticed them after about an hour was when I bent over to pick up brass, that hurt after a bit.

how was ventilation or were you a sweaty mess as soon as you put the pc on?
The weather was fairly cool and windy, I had a wicking t-shirt in and have the cumberbun installed and was not bothered enough to notice. I did piss bright yellow all night suggesting I did not drink enough water (drank about a liter that day) so that suggests I was losing more water than I thought.

did the pc chafe anywhere you didnt notice until it was on for a couple hours?
No, the shoulder straps are bulky but they helped form my previous experiment.

shooters cut? did you have any problems shouldering and getting good sight alignment? answered in op...
I am ably to shouler to the right of the strap in most "upright" situations, in rollover prone I had an issue but managed to get three inch hits at 35M

anything come loose repeatedly over time?
No

anything else annoying?
Not to mention, my legs are a bit more sore today than they would have been normally
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Link Posted: 4/20/2014 3:36:14 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ffemt596:


The coating works to stop fragmentation. It's effectiveness is reduced after multiple hits, but unlike ceramics, rounds still don't typically go through the plates.
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Originally Posted By ffemt596:
Originally Posted By tweeter:
Originally Posted By Currahee:...

I am confident in the fragmentation protection lasting through more hits than similarly priced ceramic plates (and maybe HQ ceramic) will even stop penetration....


Brother, if you think spray-on epoxy bedliner is going to stop jacket material moving at over 1000 FPS, you're simply not thinking things through.
It's your neck, but it's something to consider: I use/have used a small soft ballistic panel in a utility pouch at the top of even ceramic plates.


The coating works to stop fragmentation. It's effectiveness is reduced after multiple hits, but unlike ceramics, rounds still don't typically go through the plates.


I was refering to the DIY applcation.
Line-X and Rhino and several other manufacturers have developed several optimized coatings for shrugging off everything from explosions to actually capturing fragments.

If you apply it yourself, I'm not sure it will work "as well" but it'll do something.

But, you know, even cardboard helps.
Link Posted: 4/20/2014 5:34:33 PM EDT
I'm still going back and forth with myself on whether to get plates or not.
Thanks for the review
Link Posted: 4/20/2014 7:40:55 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ffemt596:


The coating works to stop fragmentation. It's effectiveness is reduced after multiple hits, but unlike ceramics, rounds still don't typically go through the plates.
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Originally Posted By ffemt596:
Originally Posted By tweeter:
Originally Posted By Currahee:...

I am confident in the fragmentation protection lasting through more hits than similarly priced ceramic plates (and maybe HQ ceramic) will even stop penetration....


Brother, if you think spray-on epoxy bedliner is going to stop jacket material moving at over 1000 FPS, you're simply not thinking things through.
It's your neck, but it's something to consider: I use/have used a small soft ballistic panel in a utility pouch at the top of even ceramic plates.


The coating works to stop fragmentation. It's effectiveness is reduced after multiple hits, but unlike ceramics, rounds still don't typically go through the plates.


Mind giving a source? I have never seen or heard of a ceramic plate failing until dozens and dozens of rounds where put in it.
Link Posted: 4/20/2014 10:02:07 PM EDT
When steel is hit, all that energy from the bullet has to go somewhere regardless of the coating... that can be neck or arms (or anything else along a parallel line to the plate), both of which can take you out of a fight (and be life threatening). I'll stick with non-steel, but feel free to do what you want to do.

I have thought that curving at least the top of a steel plate outward slightly might help to mitigate the risk of something getting you in the neck or chin.

There are plenty of things I'll save money on, but with armor I'm willing to spend extra and get something that will give me a better shot at survival. Plus the ceramic plates are usually lighter so maybe I'll be quicker getting to the next cover
Link Posted: 4/20/2014 10:31:50 PM EDT
Steel is good if you can accept its limitations, but I can't stand cheapasses who pretend that repurposed skid loader steel covered in truck bed liner is better than purpose build body armor.
Link Posted: 4/21/2014 3:41:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2014 3:43:40 AM EDT by oxmav3rickxo]
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Originally Posted By para_frame:
Steel is good if you can accept its limitations, but I can't stand cheapasses who pretend that repurposed skid loader steel covered in truck bed liner is better than purpose build body armor.
View Quote


Hit the nail on the head, in agreement 100% and it bears repeating, thanks for saying it and calling a spade a spade.
Link Posted: 4/21/2014 3:44:39 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By para_frame:


Mind giving a source? I have never seen or heard of a ceramic plate failing until dozens and dozens of rounds where put in it.
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Originally Posted By para_frame:
Originally Posted By ffemt596:
Originally Posted By tweeter:
Originally Posted By Currahee:...

I am confident in the fragmentation protection lasting through more hits than similarly priced ceramic plates (and maybe HQ ceramic) will even stop penetration....


Brother, if you think spray-on epoxy bedliner is going to stop jacket material moving at over 1000 FPS, you're simply not thinking things through.
It's your neck, but it's something to consider: I use/have used a small soft ballistic panel in a utility pouch at the top of even ceramic plates.


The coating works to stop fragmentation. It's effectiveness is reduced after multiple hits, but unlike ceramics, rounds still don't typically go through the plates.


Mind giving a source? I have never seen or heard of a ceramic plate failing until dozens and dozens of rounds where put in it.


3rd round penetration with 7.62x51 on Midwest level IV plates, and it is completely delaminated. It certainly wasn't taking much more 5.56 either.

Link Posted: 4/21/2014 3:56:34 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By oxmav3rickxo:


Hit the nail on the head, in agreement 100% and it bears repeating, thanks for saying it and calling a spade a spade.
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Originally Posted By oxmav3rickxo:
Originally Posted By para_frame:
Steel is good if you can accept its limitations, but I can't stand cheapasses who pretend that repurposed skid loader steel covered in truck bed liner is better than purpose build body armor.


Hit the nail on the head, in agreement 100% and it bears repeating, thanks for saying it and calling a spade a spade.


Who here is discussing skid loader steel? Every thread I have seen on AR500 armor was discussing purpose made plates with factory coatings.
Link Posted: 4/21/2014 6:24:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2014 6:24:28 AM EDT by Layer60]
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Originally Posted By Currahee:


Who here is discussing skid loader steel? Every thread I have seen on AR500 armor was discussing purpose made plates with factory coatings.
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Originally Posted By Currahee:
Originally Posted By oxmav3rickxo:
Originally Posted By para_frame:
Steel is good if you can accept its limitations, but I can't stand cheapasses who pretend that repurposed skid loader steel covered in truck bed liner is better than purpose build body armor.


Hit the nail on the head, in agreement 100% and it bears repeating, thanks for saying it and calling a spade a spade.


Who here is discussing skid loader steel? Every thread I have seen on AR500 armor was discussing purpose made plates with factory coatings.


He's just saying that AR500, which is an abrasion resistant (thus the AR) steel in 500 brinell, was designed for primary use on industrial equipment like skid loaders. He's absolutely correct in that regard. It was never designed to be armor.

Also, people should keep in mind that the BHN rating of AR500 typically ranges from 450-550 across the plate. If you're getting Chinese steel, the variations are much higher. Areas with low BHN, especially down in the 400's range, are much more vulnerable to penetration.

Anyway, I really don't know why people keep comparing steel to ceramics. The two aren't even the same animal. The testing requirements are completely different.
Link Posted: 4/21/2014 9:12:31 AM EDT
They serve the same purpose, thus they are compared.
Link Posted: 4/21/2014 9:24:42 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By oxmav3rickxo:


Hit the nail on the head, in agreement 100% and it bears repeating, thanks for saying it and calling a spade a spade.
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Originally Posted By oxmav3rickxo:
Originally Posted By para_frame:
Steel is good if you can accept its limitations, but I can't stand cheapasses who pretend that repurposed skid loader steel covered in truck bed liner is better than purpose build body armor.


Hit the nail on the head, in agreement 100% and it bears repeating, thanks for saying it and calling a spade a spade.


It's unfortunate folks are obligated to insult others over how they spend their money. Pretty silly.
Link Posted: 4/21/2014 11:53:51 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By ffemt596:
They serve the same purpose, thus they are compared.
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Do you compare level II armor to level IV rifle plates? They server the same purpose, by your definition.

The testing, however, is completely different, just as it is with level III and level IV plates.
Link Posted: 4/21/2014 12:21:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2014 12:25:34 PM EDT by ffemt596]
No, I only compare the III's and IV's as they a similar in protection to what is applicable to me. You internet intellectuals are a tough crowd!
Link Posted: 4/21/2014 1:06:47 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ffemt596:
No, I only compare the III's and IV's as they a similar in protection to what is applicable to me. You internet intellectuals are a tough crowd!
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The anti AR500 trolls are some of the worst I have ever seen in the tech forums of ARFCOM
Link Posted: 4/21/2014 1:25:46 PM EDT
It appears so. I don't understand why. It reminds of TOS. I wonder if there is a "chart" for armor.
Link Posted: 4/21/2014 2:29:13 PM EDT
I am saying this only from a future plate purchaser standpoint, since i currently own none. And I almost went down the steel route until i saw this video. Steel simply can't take that kind of abuse, plus they are considerably heavier. Too many cons for only saving ~$50.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8EE8A77DC02BEBCC
Link Posted: 4/21/2014 2:44:31 PM EDT
I don't think you could go wrong with those plates. There are some vids showing ar500 steel taking that type of abuse. The difference is the condition of the plates afterwards. The steel is usually still serviceable, whereas ceramics usually are not. The choice comes down to your application. They all can stop rounds and having any type is better than not having any at all.
Link Posted: 4/21/2014 3:42:32 PM EDT
Save $50??? Wow, you found good prices on ceramics.

The Spartan plates with Rhino coat did well in the tests I saw for splatter; I bought a pair.

I since got connected to a .gov supplier and got the latest/greatest hybrids. . . . . . but I also found the steel to be manageable once it's on.

Link Posted: 4/21/2014 7:15:15 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ffemt596:


It's unfortunate folks are obligated to insult others over how they spend their money. Pretty silly.
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Originally Posted By ffemt596:
Originally Posted By oxmav3rickxo:
Originally Posted By para_frame:
Steel is good if you can accept its limitations, but I can't stand cheapasses who pretend that repurposed skid loader steel covered in truck bed liner is better than purpose build body armor.


Hit the nail on the head, in agreement 100% and it bears repeating, thanks for saying it and calling a spade a spade.


It's unfortunate folks are obligated to insult others over how they spend their money. Pretty silly.


I only intend to insult people who insist on claiming steel is better than ceramic for no other reason than it is cheaper. Don't get me wrong, I have steel rifle plates, but I don't pretend it is better than my SAPI plates. It is equivalent to posters claiming a Hi Point is better than a Glock because the Hi Point is cheaper and they both do the same thing.
Link Posted: 4/21/2014 7:23:36 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By para_frame:


I only intend to insult people who insist on claiming steel is better than ceramic for no other reason than it is cheaper. Don't get me wrong, I have steel rifle plates, but I don't pretend it is better than my SAPI plates. It is equivalent to posters claiming a Hi Point is better than a Glock because the Hi Point is cheaper and they both do the same thing.
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Originally Posted By para_frame:
Originally Posted By ffemt596:
Originally Posted By oxmav3rickxo:
Originally Posted By para_frame:
Steel is good if you can accept its limitations, but I can't stand cheapasses who pretend that repurposed skid loader steel covered in truck bed liner is better than purpose build body armor.


Hit the nail on the head, in agreement 100% and it bears repeating, thanks for saying it and calling a spade a spade.


It's unfortunate folks are obligated to insult others over how they spend their money. Pretty silly.


I only intend to insult people who insist on claiming steel is better than ceramic for no other reason than it is cheaper. Don't get me wrong, I have steel rifle plates, but I don't pretend it is better than my SAPI plates. It is equivalent to posters claiming a Hi Point is better than a Glock because the Hi Point is cheaper and they both do the same thing.


No one is claiming that steel is better than ceramic, especially not SAPI. Steel is certainly more durable than the equivalently priced ceramics but the weight is a serious trade off. I eventually will get ceramic but will still train with the steel.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 1:18:32 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By para_frame:
Steel is good if you can accept its limitations, but I can't stand cheapasses who pretend that repurposed skid loader steel covered in truck bed liner is better than purpose build body armor.
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Some of us aren't cheap, just poor....but if you wana kick in the extra $ to get us ceramic id would very gladly set up a paypal donate button :-)
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 2:41:34 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By para_frame:
Steel is good if you can accept its limitations, but I can't stand cheapasses who pretend that repurposed skid loader steel covered in truck bed liner is better than purpose build body armor.
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Who said that it was, exactly?
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 6:32:55 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Currahee:


3rd round penetration with 7.62x51 on Midwest level IV plates, and it is completely delaminated. It certainly wasn't taking much more 5.56 either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HRGpQ6-rz8
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Originally Posted By Currahee:
Originally Posted By para_frame:
Originally Posted By ffemt596:
Originally Posted By tweeter:
Originally Posted By Currahee:...

I am confident in the fragmentation protection lasting through more hits than similarly priced ceramic plates (and maybe HQ ceramic) will even stop penetration....


Brother, if you think spray-on epoxy bedliner is going to stop jacket material moving at over 1000 FPS, you're simply not thinking things through.
It's your neck, but it's something to consider: I use/have used a small soft ballistic panel in a utility pouch at the top of even ceramic plates.


The coating works to stop fragmentation. It's effectiveness is reduced after multiple hits, but unlike ceramics, rounds still don't typically go through the plates.


Mind giving a source? I have never seen or heard of a ceramic plate failing until dozens and dozens of rounds where put in it.


3rd round penetration with 7.62x51 on Midwest level IV plates, and it is completely delaminated. It certainly wasn't taking much more 5.56 either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HRGpQ6-rz8


Your statement isn't quite true, you make it sound like the plate just fell apart after a few hits. it took multiple rounds without failing until they put a round in the exact same hole. 3 hits, no penetration excluding the rounds stacked up.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 7:00:24 AM EDT
Oh look at you- how cute!!


Link Posted: 4/22/2014 7:06:54 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By CashOutlaw:
Oh look at you- how cute!!


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I know, but sorry but I'm with someone.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 7:10:47 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Currahee:


The anti AR500 trolls are some of the worst I have ever seen in the tech forums of ARFCOM
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Originally Posted By Currahee:
Originally Posted By ffemt596:
No, I only compare the III's and IV's as they a similar in protection to what is applicable to me. You internet intellectuals are a tough crowd!


The anti AR500 trolls are some of the worst I have ever seen in the tech forums of ARFCOM


Agreed.
Link Posted: 4/23/2014 3:25:45 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Currahee:


The anti AR500 trolls are some of the worst I have ever seen in the tech forums of ARFCOM
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Originally Posted By Currahee:
Originally Posted By ffemt596:
No, I only compare the III's and IV's as they a similar in protection to what is applicable to me. You internet intellectuals are a tough crowd!


The anti AR500 trolls are some of the worst I have ever seen in the tech forums of ARFCOM


The pro-AR500 trolls are just as bad.

Oh, and I'd like to see spall test for angles other than 90* head on.
Link Posted: 4/23/2014 3:31:25 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By lew:


The pro-AR500 trolls are just as bad.

Oh, and I'd like to see spall test for angles other than 90* head on.
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Originally Posted By lew:
Originally Posted By Currahee:
Originally Posted By ffemt596:
No, I only compare the III's and IV's as they a similar in protection to what is applicable to me. You internet intellectuals are a tough crowd!


The anti AR500 trolls are some of the worst I have ever seen in the tech forums of ARFCOM


The pro-AR500 trolls are just as bad.

Oh, and I'd like to see spall test for angles other than 90* head on.


Link about ceramic armor where people show up and start calling them stupid?
Link Posted: 4/23/2014 3:50:36 PM EDT
Soft armor placed on top of steel helps would help with the spalling that seems to be the hot topic of this thread.
Link Posted: 4/23/2014 4:40:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2014 4:47:47 PM EDT by oxmav3rickxo]
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Originally Posted By Currahee:


Link about ceramic armor where people show up and start calling them stupid?
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Originally Posted By Currahee:
Originally Posted By lew:
Originally Posted By Currahee:
Originally Posted By ffemt596:
No, I only compare the III's and IV's as they a similar in protection to what is applicable to me. You internet intellectuals are a tough crowd!


The anti AR500 trolls are some of the worst I have ever seen in the tech forums of ARFCOM


The pro-AR500 trolls are just as bad.

Oh, and I'd like to see spall test for angles other than 90* head on.


Link about ceramic armor where people show up and start calling them stupid?


The pro-AR500 troll's M.O. seems to be more of one where they'll say something along the lines and to the effect of "Steel armor is just as good as ceramic and is more cost effective," along with a sentiment where they've fooled themselves into thinking "it's good enough for my needs," and passively assert/imply that buying steel over ceramic is fine and the only compromise being made is greater weight for lesser price, ignoring the compromised function as armor, and at the same time dismissing the pro-ceramic crowd as snooty, as though they were only showing off what extra money they had to spend, as if this were some dick measuring contest between antagonistic neighbors over a new car/pool/RV or camper/lawn mower/tools/barbecue/etc.

This is what I see happening, rather than AR500 fans attacking pro-ceramic people per se; they can't. To make the same argument as pro-ceramic people in the reverse order holds no logic or factual leg to stand on, to say nothing of the fact that in all the "AR500 test shoot" videos shown, none of them are to the same standards that ceramic body armor must be subjected to in order to pass true NIJ certificaton.

I believe what it comes down to is you have the pro-ceramic crowd feeling that their experience in combat and/or manufacturing is being disregarded, and thus their intelligence is being insulted, by the "Just as good" fallacy being pushed by the AR500 crowd, who at the end of the day seem merely reluctant to cough up a few extra $$ to pay for real body armor. On the other hand, the AR500 crowd is defending their purchases and the money they spent. As I stated in another thread, when the lesser equipped group is confronted by the better equipped group, those in the lesser will either adapt/learn from comparative analysis, rise, and become part of the better equipped group, or they'll dig in/get hostile and defend what they chose initially because it's become a matter of saving face.

Insofar as "training armor" goes, they make that too: http://store.teamwendy.com/esapi-non-ballistic-training-plate/

"Why spend money on that when for a few bucks more I can get steel armor that will actually provide some protection?"

Why spend money on half ass armor when for a few bucks more you can get purpose-built dedicated body armor that will ultimately provide better protection?

"Well steel armor will last longer and retain durability after being shot than ceramic will so it'll stay around longer."

They used to wear no armor in WWII & Vietnam and still got shit done, what's your point? If your plan ends with you taking a shitload of rounds to the front or rear plate, and somewhere in that moment being able to say to yourself "at least I can still wear it and do this again sometime!" then you've either trained poorly, planned poorly, or both.
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