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Link Posted: 4/23/2014 4:50:12 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By SethP:
Soft armor placed on top of steel helps would help with the spalling that seems to be the hot topic of this thread.
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This was supposed to be a thread about training in your gear.
Link Posted: 4/23/2014 4:56:03 PM EDT
When people compare steel to ceramic (you really shouldn't), why doesn't anyone shoot the steel with a round of M2AP Black Tip or M193?

What about 7.62x39MM BZ API? Or 7.62x54R AP?

If people insist on making a comparison, don't just test to level III standards. Test to level IV as well - otherwise, you're hiding behind a completely different standard than level IV is designed for.
Link Posted: 4/23/2014 4:56:33 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Currahee:

This was supposed to be a thread about training in your gear.
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Link Posted: 4/23/2014 5:05:05 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By oxmav3rickxo:


The pro-AR500 troll's M.O. seems to be more of one where they'll say something along the lines and to the effect of "Steel armor is just as good as ceramic and is more cost effective," along with a sentiment where they've fooled themselves into thinking "it's good enough for my needs," and passively assert/imply that buying steel over ceramic is fine and the only compromise being made is greater weight for lesser price, ignoring the compromised function as armor, and at the same time dismissing the pro-ceramic crowd as snooty, as though they were only showing off what extra money they had to spend, as if this were some dick measuring contest between antagonistic neighbors over a new car/pool/RV or camper/lawn mower/tools/barbecue/etc.

This is what I see happening, rather than AR500 fans attacking pro-ceramic people per se; they can't. To make the same argument as pro-ceramic people in the reverse order holds no logic or factual leg to stand on, to say nothing of the fact that in all the "AR500 test shoot" videos shown, none of them are to the same standards that ceramic body armor must be subjected to in order to pass true NIJ certificaton.

I believe what it comes down to is you have the pro-ceramic crowd feeling that their experience in combat and/or manufacturing is being disregarded, and thus their intelligence is being insulted, by the "Just as good" fallacy being pushed by the AR500 crowd, who at the end of the day seem merely reluctant to cough up a few extra $$ to pay for real body armor. On the other hand, the AR500 crowd is defending their purchases and the money they spent. As I stated in another thread, when the lesser equipped group is confronted by the better equipped group, those in the lesser will either adapt/learn from comparative analysis, rise, and become part of the better equipped group, or they'll dig in/get hostile and defend what they chose initially because it's become a matter of saving face.

Insofar as "training armor" goes, they make that too: http://store.teamwendy.com/esapi-non-ballistic-training-plate/

"Why spend money on that when for a few bucks more I can get steel armor that will actually provide some protection?"

Why spend money on half ass armor when for a few bucks more you can get purpose-built dedicated body armor that will ultimately provide better protection?

"Well steel armor will last longer and retain durability after being shot than ceramic will so it'll stay around longer."

They used to wear no armor in WWII & Vietnam and still got shit done, what's your point? If your plan ends with you taking a shitload of rounds to the front or rear plate, and somewhere in that moment being able to say to yourself "at least I can still wear it and do this again sometime!" then you've either trained poorly, planned poorly, or both.
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Originally Posted By oxmav3rickxo:
Originally Posted By Currahee:
Originally Posted By lew:
Originally Posted By Currahee:
Originally Posted By ffemt596:
No, I only compare the III's and IV's as they a similar in protection to what is applicable to me. You internet intellectuals are a tough crowd!


The anti AR500 trolls are some of the worst I have ever seen in the tech forums of ARFCOM


The pro-AR500 trolls are just as bad.

Oh, and I'd like to see spall test for angles other than 90* head on.


Link about ceramic armor where people show up and start calling them stupid?


The pro-AR500 troll's M.O. seems to be more of one where they'll say something along the lines and to the effect of "Steel armor is just as good as ceramic and is more cost effective," along with a sentiment where they've fooled themselves into thinking "it's good enough for my needs," and passively assert/imply that buying steel over ceramic is fine and the only compromise being made is greater weight for lesser price, ignoring the compromised function as armor, and at the same time dismissing the pro-ceramic crowd as snooty, as though they were only showing off what extra money they had to spend, as if this were some dick measuring contest between antagonistic neighbors over a new car/pool/RV or camper/lawn mower/tools/barbecue/etc.

This is what I see happening, rather than AR500 fans attacking pro-ceramic people per se; they can't. To make the same argument as pro-ceramic people in the reverse order holds no logic or factual leg to stand on, to say nothing of the fact that in all the "AR500 test shoot" videos shown, none of them are to the same standards that ceramic body armor must be subjected to in order to pass true NIJ certificaton.

I believe what it comes down to is you have the pro-ceramic crowd feeling that their experience in combat and/or manufacturing is being disregarded, and thus their intelligence is being insulted, by the "Just as good" fallacy being pushed by the AR500 crowd, who at the end of the day seem merely reluctant to cough up a few extra $$ to pay for real body armor. On the other hand, the AR500 crowd is defending their purchases and the money they spent. As I stated in another thread, when the lesser equipped group is confronted by the better equipped group, those in the lesser will either adapt/learn from comparative analysis, rise, and become part of the better equipped group, or they'll dig in/get hostile and defend what they chose initially because it's become a matter of saving face.

Insofar as "training armor" goes, they make that too: http://store.teamwendy.com/esapi-non-ballistic-training-plate/

"Why spend money on that when for a few bucks more I can get steel armor that will actually provide some protection?"

Why spend money on half ass armor when for a few bucks more you can get purpose-built dedicated body armor that will ultimately provide better protection?

"Well steel armor will last longer and retain durability after being shot than ceramic will so it'll stay around longer."

They used to wear no armor in WWII & Vietnam and still got shit done, what's your point? If your plan ends with you taking a shitload of rounds to the front or rear plate, and somewhere in that moment being able to say to yourself "at least I can still wear it and do this again sometime!" then you've either trained poorly, planned poorly, or both.



The entire "purpose built dedicated body armor" line shows how ridiculous your argument is, AR500 armor caries an NIJ rating.

"The few bucks more" line shows that you are rating all ceramic armor as equal. I'm sorry I have seen actual tests of armor durability and would rather have my AR500 than the ceramics for "a few bucks more" and save until I can buy ceramic that is actually much better (I have other purchases first) until then I am wearing something that will stop bullets and makes me stronger.

Otherwise, fuck it, I do not have the time nor the inclination to debate this with you or anyone else

Link Posted: 4/23/2014 5:14:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2014 5:15:08 PM EDT by oxmav3rickxo]
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Originally Posted By Currahee:
The entire "purpose built dedicated body armor" line shows how ridiculous your argument is, AR500 armor caries an NIJ rating.

"The few bucks more" line shows that you are rating all ceramic armor as equal. I'm sorry I have seen actual tests of armor durability and would rather have my AR500 than the ceramics for "a few bucks more" and save until I can buy ceramic that is actually much better (I have other purchases first) until then I am wearing something that will stop bullets and makes me stronger.

Otherwise, fuck it, I do not have the time nor the inclination to debate this with you or anyone else

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Testing the sheet of steel before it's cut and formed =/= NIJ rating

Obviously not all ceramic armor is equal, but I should have specified. I was referring to Level IV ceramic armor, being that it's the highest NIJ rating.

Guys prone out with 100+ lbs of shit hanging off of them in drop to the floor right the fuck now fashion, and the armor doesn't chip or crack, but keeps doing its job, and you're worried about durability. Come on man, you're better than that. Your "every citizen a soldier" endeavor wasn't synonymous with "Poor man's guide to being a soldier" the first few times I read through it. I'll hold you to that standard, because I pass your site along to a lot of my shooting friends.
Link Posted: 4/23/2014 5:32:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2014 5:33:10 PM EDT by toki]
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Originally Posted By Currahee:


The entire "purpose built dedicated body armor" line shows how ridiculous your argument is, AR500 armor caries an NIJ rating.


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I do not think you understand that to say something "carries an NIJ rating" only appropriate means to be certified by an NIJ/NLECTC approved laboratory to comply with NIJ specifications.

I don't see the big name "AR500 armor" suppliers I see around on this list at all. Certainly not the ar15.com vendor we are all thinking of. There is a reason NIJ specifications exist. There is a reason industry standards calls for testing and certification of compliance by a qualified laboratory.
Link Posted: 4/23/2014 5:47:28 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By oxmav3rickxo:


Testing the sheet of steel before it's cut and formed =/= NIJ rating

Obviously not all ceramic armor is equal, but I should have specified. I was referring to Level IV ceramic armor, being that it's the highest NIJ rating.

Guys prone out with 100+ lbs of shit hanging off of them in drop to the floor right the fuck now fashion, and the armor doesn't chip or crack, but keeps doing its job, and you're worried about durability. Come on man, you're better than that. Your "every citizen a soldier" endeavor wasn't synonymous with "Poor man's guide to being a soldier" the first few times I read through it. I'll hold you to that standard, because I pass your site along to a lot of my shooting friends.
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Originally Posted By oxmav3rickxo:
Originally Posted By Currahee:
The entire "purpose built dedicated body armor" line shows how ridiculous your argument is, AR500 armor caries an NIJ rating.

"The few bucks more" line shows that you are rating all ceramic armor as equal. I'm sorry I have seen actual tests of armor durability and would rather have my AR500 than the ceramics for "a few bucks more" and save until I can buy ceramic that is actually much better (I have other purchases first) until then I am wearing something that will stop bullets and makes me stronger.

Otherwise, fuck it, I do not have the time nor the inclination to debate this with you or anyone else



Testing the sheet of steel before it's cut and formed =/= NIJ rating

Obviously not all ceramic armor is equal, but I should have specified. I was referring to Level IV ceramic armor, being that it's the highest NIJ rating.

Guys prone out with 100+ lbs of shit hanging off of them in drop to the floor right the fuck now fashion, and the armor doesn't chip or crack, but keeps doing its job, and you're worried about durability. Come on man, you're better than that. Your "every citizen a soldier" endeavor wasn't synonymous with "Poor man's guide to being a soldier" the first few times I read through it. I'll hold you to that standard, because I pass your site along to a lot of my shooting friends.


The mantra on the website has always been 100% get what you can and train with it and test it. If that is a Mosin-Nagant and home made bandoleer then so be it. If you don't appreciate that point of view then I would suggest you stop sending your friends.

The line gear page is in the process of being re-written to include plate carriers and there will be pages this summer on the value of different price points of armor and NODs, they will all be tested to the best of my ability..
Link Posted: 4/23/2014 6:47:55 PM EDT
So on a side note, anyone got a coupon codes for ceramics and the ar500?
Link Posted: 4/23/2014 7:21:41 PM EDT
Some people will shoot steel all day long at the range then come on here and say that steel is shit.


Link Posted: 4/24/2014 12:30:26 AM EDT
People have asked who has said steel is as good as/better than ceramic plates, here is 5 minutes on yahoo.


zombiegristle
Yeah, but the Gamma was practically turned inside-out, not a minor dent. This is the sort of backface signature you see on ceramic plates hit with .308 ball - you might actually SURVIVE getting hit with a .338 with steel, whereas the ceramic would just kill you from bleeding IN instead of OUT.

Grudgie
Why don't you share your knowledge that you seem to be hording. You haven't recognized any of the benefits that steel provides over ceramic and other plates. Yes it has its downfalls, but I don't think it is ignorant. Please tell me why you disreguard steel so much. And yes, NIJ tests 6 hits that are spaced apart as in the photo. Real life conditions are not like that.

WS6_Keith
While it all comes down to personal preference, I also thought it comes to intended usage. I'm not LE, and don't plan to have to wear my PC unless the S has HTF (except for training days). To me, longevity was more important than weight. With ceramic plates, the only way to really verify they are GTG is to x-ray them...I looked into doing this (in our pre-SHTF times) and I couldn't find a local entity. Post SHTF, I'm certain there won't be a way to know if I landed on them going prone too hard and my mag carrier broke the plate. With steel, that's not a concern. Spartikis mentioned he probably wouldn't be alive if he took 20 rounds due to other injuries...but that assumes 20 rounds in one engagement. What about a round or two in each of several engagements? The videos I have seen show the ceramic plates breaking apart and having cracks that now will let rounds through, where the steels just get dented. I'm not in the .MIL where someone is going to hand me a new plate if this one breaks or is assumed to be broken, or after taking a few rounds, so I'd rather deal with one that I can visually inspect myself. Spalling is a concern, and some of the newer plates are coated to control spall. Not to mention (at least on my rig), it's going to be behind some other stuff that will likely help control spalling as well. In the end, there are pros and cons to each. You'll have to decide what you intend to use it for and what works best with your plan.

Smithy
I just ordered some AR500 armor plates. Last forever, mitigate spalling within the first few impacted rounds, and even after the despalling coating is gone they will still prevent a lot more rounds from putting holes in your body. It has a lot more going for it than the ceramics that cost 3-5 times as much, that have a shelf life and will only defeat a few rounds.The choice is clear.

Link Posted: 4/24/2014 4:28:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2014 10:08:10 AM EDT by oxmav3rickxo]
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Originally Posted By Currahee:
The mantra on the website has always been 100% get what you can and train with it and test it. If that is a Mosin-Nagant and home made bandoleer then so be it. If you don't appreciate that point of view then I would suggest you stop sending your friends.
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There's a difference between "doing your best with what's available" and cutting costs/settling for less while trying to stay on par with everybody else and act like it's just as good. That's a good way to get a person killed if they start thinking like that. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but you have a responsibility to specify and articulate a clear and concise distinction between the two, and encourage the reader to step up to plate and get the best they can get that's in line with what they might come up against, even if that means they gotta hold out and save up some, and not put the idea out there that it's okay to go Viet Cong status and be satisfied with that when they can easily do better for themselves.

Basically, don't proliferate the concept that "better than nothing" means cheap shit is fine when cost effective quality options are easily obtainable.

Originally Posted By whatarippa:
Some people will shoot steel all day long at the range then come on here and say that steel is shit.
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You can't compare ½" thick steel targets with ¼" thick steel plates.
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 4:53:23 AM EDT
For many applications AR500 plates are a better choice than ceramics depending on the users needs. There is nothing wrong with folks considering their use. There is plenty of information proving they will stop rounds. Though with my luck I'd get shot in the face no matter what I was wearing.
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 6:45:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2014 6:46:41 AM EDT by oxmav3rickxo]


Like I said, on Page 2.
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 7:30:29 AM EDT
Oh, to be 20 something again...
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 10:58:38 AM EDT
In for purse swinging. I have literally nothing constructive to add

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 11:22:29 AM EDT
I actually have steel plates in my purse. I'd have to say when it comes to steel vs ceramics in an offensive situation the advantage goes to steel yet again. I used ceramics once in a purse fight and they literally fell apart after one blow to the head. I was then beaten severely with swinging steel from a Gucci handbag. It wasn't pretty.
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 12:32:30 PM EDT
They must've been fine china, cause ballistic plates wouldn't have done that. Unless you were extremely thickheaded
Link Posted: 4/24/2014 2:37:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2014 2:38:16 PM EDT by Currahee]
After watching this vid I certainly do need to tighten it up, it moves when I run.

Link Posted: 4/24/2014 6:57:38 PM EDT
I'm thinking about buying some body armor, but know very little about the subject. I was in the military when the flak vests were all we had.


So AR500 plates are steel and not ceramic?

Do they are do they not have the NIJ rating?
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 6:16:16 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SRRhodesia:
I'm thinking about buying some body armor, but know very little about the subject. I was in the military when the flak vests were all we had.


So AR500 plates are steel and not ceramic?

Do they are do they not have the NIJ rating?
View Quote

No steel plates are certified by NIJ. Here is the link to the NIJ website where all of the actual certifications are listed: NIJ

The least expensive, certified, LVL IV plates that I have found are the Guardian 4SAS-7 made by HighCom Security. You can find a set for @ $200 give or take depending on sales and coupons. Check the Industry section or the EE. They are neither the lightest or most comfortable plates available.

Even the older generation/design NIJ certified ceramic plates are lighter than steel. And, well, independently certified to actually stop a threat under controlled conditions, just in case that might be an important consideration when purchasing body armor .

YMMV,
Rob
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 6:22:39 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By SRRhodesia:
I'm thinking about buying some body armor, but know very little about the subject. I was in the military when the flak vests were all we had.


So AR500 plates are steel and not ceramic?

Do they are do they not have the NIJ rating?
View Quote


Tests from AR500 Armor
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 7:02:27 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Currahee:


Tests from AR500 Armor
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Originally Posted By Currahee:
Originally Posted By SRRhodesia:
I'm thinking about buying some body armor, but know very little about the subject. I was in the military when the flak vests were all we had.


So AR500 plates are steel and not ceramic?

Do they are do they not have the NIJ rating?


Tests from AR500 Armor

I will stand partially corrected. Looks like they are tested to NIJ standards but are not listed on the NIJ website or labelled as NIJ certified (in pics from their website).
Why have they not submitted these certifications by HP White to be added to the list?

Currahee, are your AR500 plates labelled as NIJ certified? I ask because every set of armor I have ever been issued has the NIJ Threat level certification and standard used prominently displayed on the label.

I have friends who have been shot, I have been shot at. For me it is more of a "when" not "if" proposition as to when I will actually have to depend on my armor to stop an incoming round so I take the NIJ certifications seriously. I'm not really into the steel v. ceramic debate. I wouldn't use ceramics that weren't NIJ certified or .mil issued/tested either, no matter what the manufacturer claimed on their website.

Stay Safe,
Rob
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 7:19:55 AM EDT
What's uncomfortable about the 4SAS-7s in multi curve? Such a difference between them and the single curves, holy shit.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 9:51:52 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By SRRhodesia:
I'm thinking about buying some body armor, but know very little about the subject. I was in the military when the flak vests were all we had.


So AR500 plates are steel and not ceramic?

Do they are do they not have the NIJ rating?
View Quote


If you want to be an elite operator operating operationally you must only use ceramics. Ar500 plates are strictly for mall ninja basement dwellers.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 10:03:38 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Currahee:
After watching this vid I certainly do need to tighten it up, it moves when I run.

View Quote


I make sure to move around, jump up and down, etc after putting mine on to be sure it won't shift. Even after doing situps in armor (which should make it ride up) I had no issues with it shifting around on me.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 11:46:51 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By RobNC:

I will stand partially corrected. Looks like they are tested to NIJ standards but are not listed on the NIJ website or labelled as NIJ certified (in pics from their website).
Why have they not submitted these certifications by HP White to be added to the list?

Currahee, are your AR500 plates labelled as NIJ certified? I ask because every set of armor I have ever been issued has the NIJ Threat level certification and standard used prominently displayed on the label.

I have friends who have been shot, I have been shot at. For me it is more of a "when" not "if" proposition as to when I will actually have to depend on my armor to stop an incoming round so I take the NIJ certifications seriously. I'm not really into the steel v. ceramic debate. I wouldn't use ceramics that weren't NIJ certified or .mil issued/tested either, no matter what the manufacturer claimed on their website.

Stay Safe,
Rob
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Originally Posted By RobNC:
Originally Posted By Currahee:
Originally Posted By SRRhodesia:
I'm thinking about buying some body armor, but know very little about the subject. I was in the military when the flak vests were all we had.


So AR500 plates are steel and not ceramic?

Do they are do they not have the NIJ rating?


Tests from AR500 Armor

I will stand partially corrected. Looks like they are tested to NIJ standards but are not listed on the NIJ website or labelled as NIJ certified (in pics from their website).
Why have they not submitted these certifications by HP White to be added to the list?

Currahee, are your AR500 plates labelled as NIJ certified? I ask because every set of armor I have ever been issued has the NIJ Threat level certification and standard used prominently displayed on the label.

I have friends who have been shot, I have been shot at. For me it is more of a "when" not "if" proposition as to when I will actually have to depend on my armor to stop an incoming round so I take the NIJ certifications seriously. I'm not really into the steel v. ceramic debate. I wouldn't use ceramics that weren't NIJ certified or .mil issued/tested either, no matter what the manufacturer claimed on their website.

Stay Safe,
Rob


probably because it costs tens of thousands of dollars to do so.

If you have the attitude of "when", not "if", then obviously you should spend $$$ on the latest and greatest plates. If someone is concerned enough, it would be better to buy a plate and to shoot it themselves to see the performance first hand.

Link Posted: 4/25/2014 1:30:21 PM EDT
I get new armor every 5 years. Thank you local tax payers. Just trying to contribute to the discussion. I would hate to hear that someone got hurt trying to save $50 without having all the information available.

NIJ certification is a basic standard that is used to rate armor as safe or not safe for duty use. Lots of companies claim III or IV+ ratings when those certifications don't even exist. I wouldn't use any armor, no matter what it was made of, without it being certified.

I was not knocking on the Guardians, but there are lighter plates that are more comfortable to wear all day now. They also cost more.

Stay safe,
Rob
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 2:17:49 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RobNC:
I get new armor every 5 years. Thank you local tax payers. Just trying to contribute to the discussion. I would hate to hear that someone got hurt trying to save $50 without having all the information available.

NIJ certification is a basic standard that is used to rate armor as safe or not safe for duty use. Lots of companies claim III or IV+ ratings when those certifications don't even exist. I wouldn't use any armor, no matter what it was made of, without it being certified.

I was not knocking on the Guardians, but there are lighter plates that are more comfortable to wear all day now. They also cost more.

Stay safe,
Rob
View Quote


I mostly agree. Research is probably the most important factor in all of this, as is identifying what your needs are.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 2:24:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2014 2:25:16 PM EDT by Layer60]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RobNC:
[snip]
I was not knocking on the Guardians, but there are lighter plates that are more comfortable to wear all day now. They also cost more.

Stay safe,
Rob
View Quote


Of course. There's the new FM4 that Appalachian Training carries, for example: a 5.5 pound level IV stand-alone, multi-hit plate that's a half-inch thick. It's also very expensive.

The Guardian, in contrast, is an excellent entry-level plate that is certified and will stop "one or more" of essentially anything you could ever reasonably expect to encounter. And it's cheap. That's a good combination.

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