Wondering What Would Be Best For Extreme CQB?

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Posted: 8/13/2005 1:55:24 PM EDT

After awhile of pondering and day dreaming since I am on summer vacation I began thinking about what I would do if someone came into my house if my parents were at work. Assuming I didn't have the ammo locked away and my guns were in reach what would I grab if a armed assailent came into my home. MY house is pretty small, about 2700 sq feet. The rooms are anywhere from 8 to 40 feet, with the basement room being about 70 feet long. I am only going to let you choose between three of guns that I currently have.
*(None of these are kept loaded, ammo is locked away, this is merely a hypothectical situation)*.

1. Bushmaster M4: TD Vertical Grip, GG&G A2 BUIS, Phantom 5C1, Samco M33, Houge Rubber Grip, Larue M68 with Aimpoint Comp ML2; 31 rounds

2. Beretta 96 Vertec: Insight M6; 11 rounds (.40 S&W)

3. Browing Auto 5; 5 rounds of 00 Buck

If you had the choice between these three guns which would you choose for the above situation? Would the tricked out M4 be a better choice than 5 quick rounds of 12 Gauge Ammo? Or would the Beretta with a light and laser prove the handiest and quickest to aim with the laser? Remember the distance is most likely to be about 8-15 feet of horizontal distance. Take into consideration that my home is kept fairly well lit at night so that lighting really isn't an issue, it might just as well be daytime. I am looking forward to what you have to say.

MODS: I wasn't sure if this should be posted in general or in the AR-15 since it does deal with the AR-15 somewhat.

Posted: 8/12/2005 7:17:41 AM EDT

[#1]

If an armed assailant comes into your home, any weapon will work really.

You will not be moving around the house looking, you will be hiding in your room with the
best cover you can manage, with the weapon pointed at the door, and on the phone
with the po po.

You do NOT want to be trying to clear a house alone. You will be dead.

Personally I'd choose the M4 for this, purely because of round capacity.

The shotty gun would be a good choice if it was a pump, but you don't want to have
any reliability issues using a hunting shotgun. That is not a defensive weapon.

The handgun is nice, but limited # of rounds. Since you somehow know the intruder is
armed, you want maximum firepower.

Important part is that you won't be moving around the house hunting this guy.
When the police get there, if you're moving around with a gun you're as likely to
get shot as the bad guy.

Get in a safe defensive position and hunker down.

Posted: 8/12/2005 7:21:56 AM EDT

[#2]

The shotgun.

Posted: 8/12/2005 7:33:50 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
If an armed assailant comes into your home, any weapon will work really.

You will not be moving around the house looking, you will be hiding in your room with the
best cover you can manage, with the weapon pointed at the door, and on the phone
with the po po.

You do NOT want to be trying to clear a house alone. You will be dead.

Personally I'd choose the M4 for this, purely because of round capacity.

The shotty gun would be a good choice if it was a pump, but you don't want to have
any reliability issues using a hunting shotgun. That is not a defensive weapon.

The handgun is nice, but limited # of rounds. Since you somehow know the intruder is
armed, you want maximum firepower.

Important part is that you won't be moving around the house hunting this guy.
When the police get there, if you're moving around with a gun you're as likely to
get shot as the bad guy.

Get in a safe defensive position and hunker down.

+1 What TexasSIG said.

Any one will do. As long as its the most reliable firearm you know and the most experience you have with.

Hunker down and wait. Don't try to be a hero. They only do that in the movies. hen

Posted: 8/12/2005 7:56:47 AM EDT

[#4]

I wouldn't call your scenario "Extreme CQB", and I would say the best thing you could have is good training.

All the weapons in the world don't mean much without decent training.

Posted: 8/12/2005 7:59:10 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
The shotgun.

YEAH!!

With Bird shot too!! At close ranges, it's just like a dang ol' darn slug, Jethro!

Posted: 8/12/2005 8:00:31 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
I wouldn't call your scenario "Extreme CQB", and I would say the best thing you could have is good training.

All the weapons in the world don't mean much without decent training.

Yeah, what the others ssaid...

I've had professional CQB training and something we learned very quickly is that attempting to clear a house by yourself is a very good way to get killed.

Hunker down and wait for the Cavalry. (ETA: With the shotgun.)

Posted: 8/12/2005 8:01:30 AM EDT

[#7]

What ever you shoot best with and is the most reliable.

Shot placement is king.

Posted: 8/12/2005 8:04:53 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
If an armed assailant comes into your home, any weapon will work really.

You will not be moving around the house looking, you will be hiding in your room with the
best cover you can manage, with the weapon pointed at the door, and on the phone
with the po po.

You do NOT want to be trying to clear a house alone. You will be dead.

Personally I'd choose the M4 for this, purely because of round capacity.

The shotty gun would be a good choice if it was a pump, but you don't want to have
any reliability issues using a hunting shotgun. That is not a defensive weapon.

The handgun is nice, but limited # of rounds. Since you somehow know the intruder is
armed, you want maximum firepower.

Important part is that you won't be moving around the house hunting this guy.
When the police get there, if you're moving around with a gun you're as likely to
get shot as the bad guy.

Get in a safe defensive position and hunker down.

I agree totaly.

Death_006

Now the one other thing you have to look at though is that your guns are locked up, and the ammo is locked up. Ever been in that situation before? You very well may not have time to get to the guns and the ammo, do you have to load the mag still or is the mag kept loaded? When I'm at home most of my time is spent on my computer doing paperwork or digging up info(I don't spend much time at home) I usualy have a pistol on me CCW and the AR with a 20rd mag or 30rd mag of 75gr BTHP in the gun, nothing in the chamber, sitting by the compouter desk. if it's not immediatly accesable(or damn near) in an emergency it's not going to do you a single bit of good.

Posted: 8/12/2005 8:19:46 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Quoted:
If an armed assailant comes into your home, any weapon will work really.

You will not be moving around the house looking, you will be hiding in your room with the
best cover you can manage, with the weapon pointed at the door, and on the phone
with the po po.

You do NOT want to be trying to clear a house alone. You will be dead.

Personally I'd choose the M4 for this, purely because of round capacity.

The shotty gun would be a good choice if it was a pump, but you don't want to have
any reliability issues using a hunting shotgun. That is not a defensive weapon.

The handgun is nice, but limited # of rounds. Since you somehow know the intruder is
armed, you want maximum firepower.

Important part is that you won't be moving around the house hunting this guy.
When the police get there, if you're moving around with a gun you're as likely to
get shot as the bad guy.

Get in a safe defensive position and hunker down.

I agree totaly.

Death_006

Now the one other thing you have to look at though is that your guns are locked up, and the ammo is locked up. Ever been in that situation before? You very well may not have time to get to the guns and the ammo, do you have to load the mag still or is the mag kept loaded? When I'm at home most of my time is spent on my computer doing paperwork or digging up info(I don't spend much time at home) I usualy have a pistol on me CCW and the AR with a 20rd mag or 30rd mag of 75gr BTHP in the gun, nothing in the chamber, sitting by the compouter desk. if it's not immediatly accesable(or damn near) in an emergency it's not going to do you a single bit of good.

My guns are kept in my room, whle my brother has his in his room. They are openly displayed with the rifles on gun racks and the pistols placed sights down, grip up on top of our book cases. All of our ammo is kept in a large foot locker locked in my closet in my room. My mother has a key on her keychain for the padlock and we have another key in my mother and fathers room. Bottom line is that if a bad guy comes into our home we are screwed if he has some type of gun. If he doesn' have a gun I feel nearly 100% condifdent that me or my father could easily deal with him/her in a pyshical confrontation. My brother and I frequently carry/fondle the unloaded guns so it wouldn't be a good idea to have the ammo out.

The way my parents look at it is what are the odds of someone coming into our home with a weapon? I disagree and say that a loaded gun kept in a responsible manner is a valid tool againist an intruder. My parents seem to think that the gun is more likely to be used by my brother to shoot me when he is in a fit of rage.

My Auto 5 has worked flawlessly. If you pick a pump over the semi-auto shotgun isn't that like saying you should grab a bolt gun instead of your AR-15 because it could jam?

Posted: 8/12/2005 8:24:45 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
The shotgun.

+1

Posted: 8/12/2005 8:25:29 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

My Auto 5 has worked flawlessly. If you pick a pump over the semi-auto shotgun isn't that like saying you should grab a bolt gun instead of your AR-15 because it could jam?

My Auto 5 has worked flawlessly as well, but it was not designed for this.

The AR was, I'd count my my AR any day of the week over my Auto 5.

If that's all you had or could load it fastest, sure, that is fine.

But of the 3 choices, that would be at the bottom the list for those reasons.

They are great guns no doubt. So are blackpowder pistols. I have one of those that
has been ultra reliable. Right tool for the right job though.

Posted: 8/12/2005 8:29:08 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
If he doesn' have a gun I feel nearly 100% condifdent that me or my father could easily deal with him/her in a pyshical confrontation.

You need to get out more and see the seedier side of things. Go fight a guy who has been smooking PCP, meth, or even crack, and see how you rate your odds. Go fight with a guy who has 2 strikes, and would rather kill you than go back to prison. Get into a ground fight with a guy who has spent the last 10 years in prison pumping iron all day, then got out and got high, and is now coming down and looking for his next fix fast.

Someone breaking into your house is not the person you want to go hands on with. There are plenty of dead homeowners who have thought the same way as you up until the last few seconds of their lives.

Note- I'm not even bringing up edged weapons or blunt instruments....

Posted: 8/12/2005 8:30:06 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Quoted:

My Auto 5 has worked flawlessly. If you pick a pump over the semi-auto shotgun isn't that like saying you should grab a bolt gun instead of your AR-15 because it could jam?

My Auto 5 has worked flawlessly as well, but it was not designed for this.

The AR was, I'd count my my AR any day of the week over my Auto 5.

If that's all you had or could load it fastest, sure, that is fine.

But of the 3 choices, that would be at the bottom the list for those reasons.

They are great guns no doubt. So are blackpowder pistols. I have one of those that
has been ultra reliable. Right tool for the right job though.

Ok thanks for the reasoning I just wanted to know why you thought what you did. And I cannot load it very fast either, lol.

Posted: 8/12/2005 8:35:22 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Quoted:
The shotgun.

YEAH!!

With Bird shot too!! At close ranges, it's just like a dang ol' darn slug, Jethro!

Spoken like a true commando-wannabe that has never seen what 00 buck can do.

Posted: 8/12/2005 8:35:54 AM EDT

[#15]

Assuming you're proficient with all three options I'd choose the Beretta solely because it's got a light.

Toss a light on the M4, I'd choose that.

In my house I use a Colt 45 1911 with a Scorpion flashlight as I don't have the means to lock n' store an AR near the bed.

Posted: 8/12/2005 8:38:50 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
If he doesn' have a gun I feel nearly 100% condifdent that me or my father could easily deal with him/her in a pyshical confrontation.

You need to get out more and see the seedier side of things. Go fight a guy who has been smooking PCP, meth, or even crack, and see how you rate your odds. Go fight with a guy who has 2 strikes, and would rather kill you than go back to prison. Get into a ground fight with a guy who has spent the last 10 years in prison pumping iron all day, then got out and got high, and is now coming down and looking for his next fix fast.

Someone breaking into your house is not the person you want to go hands on with. There are plenty of dead homeowners who have thought the same way as you up until the last few seconds of their lives.

Note- I'm not even bringing up edged weapons or blunt instruments....

So what should I do with SOMETHING like that? Shoot 'em?
Never mind my earlier comment. Since I know your an LEO I know that you are most likely capable of taking down one of these THINGS. Without asking my daddy, how would you deal with one of these THINGS? Mace might just make them more angry and I don't think they would feel it if it got hit in the head with a baseball bat. I am still going to be nieve and say that I could take 'em in a fight. I'm a pretty large person and am fairly strong. Never fought a crack or PCP fan though and we don't have any prisons around here.

Posted: 8/12/2005 8:44:56 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If he doesn' have a gun I feel nearly 100% condifdent that me or my father could easily deal with him/her in a pyshical confrontation.

You need to get out more and see the seedier side of things. Go fight a guy who has been smooking PCP, meth, or even crack, and see how you rate your odds. Go fight with a guy who has 2 strikes, and would rather kill you than go back to prison. Get into a ground fight with a guy who has spent the last 10 years in prison pumping iron all day, then got out and got high, and is now coming down and looking for his next fix fast.

Someone breaking into your house is not the person you want to go hands on with. There are plenty of dead homeowners who have thought the same way as you up until the last few seconds of their lives.

Note- I'm not even bringing up edged weapons or blunt instruments....

So what should I do with SOMETHING like that? Shoot 'em?
Never mind my earlier comment. Since I know your an LEO I know that you are most likely capable of taking down one of these THINGS. Without asking my daddy, how would you deal with one of these THINGS? Mace might just make them more angry and I don't think they would feel it if it got hit in the head with a baseball bat. I am still going to be nieve and say that I could take 'em in a fight. I'm a pretty large person and am fairly strong. Never fought a crack or PCP fan though and we don't have any prisons around here.

Actually yeah, shoot them. Assuming Ohio has a castle doctrine with no requirement to retreat,
the game is still the same. Arm yourself, call the cops, and point the gun at the door.
Even then, if the only way you can retreat is through a door that will take you towards a badguy,
still a shoot situation in my mind.

If he opens the door, shoot. There is no reason to use non-lethal methods in your own home
when someone breaks in. They have clearly demonstrated intent to do bad things, and if you yell through
the door that you are armed and they come in anyway, I'd think you are on pretty solid ground
in most states, although there are a few that have some weird retreat requirements even in your house.

Posted: 8/12/2005 8:46:16 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

So what should I do with SOMETHING like that? Shoot 'em?
Never mind my earlier comment. Since I know your an LEO I know that you are most likely capable of taking down one of these THINGS. Without asking my daddy, how would you deal with one of these THINGS? Mace might just make them more angry and I don't think they would feel it if it got hit in the head with a baseball bat. I am still going to be nieve and say that I could take 'em in a fight. I'm a pretty large person and am fairly strong. Never fought a crack or PCP fan though and we don't have any prisons around here.

What you do is up to you, but what I will do is terminate the threat as quickly as possible to protect myself and family. Since these people do not feel pain, even if you are shattering bones, I would humbly suggest that as I LEO I am all too familiar with the concept of not being able to stop one of these people by myself. Nor am I capable of fighting off their accomplice(s), while trying to win a fight and protect myself and family. Nor do I have a desire to die in front of my family because I thought I could protect them while subduing a suspect.

Break into my house, and die. I won't let my family be harmed, and I have seen too many times what happens to people who think otherwise. There would be VERY few exceptions, and since this isn't a use of force class, I'll keep it nice, short and basic.

Posted: 8/12/2005 8:48:21 AM EDT

[#19]

I'd also choose the Bushmaster with some sort of light.

On another note, some of us have kids that don't sleep in the same room as us so at the very least I will need to leave my room and collect my kids and bring them to my room or leave the house.

Anyone in between my kids and I is pretty much toast and if I don't get you my wife will and she's meaner when it comes to her babies.

While staying your room with you weapons pointed at the door is the best scenario some of us don't have this option.

Posted: 8/12/2005 8:50:20 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
I'd also choose the Bushmaster with some sort of light.

On another note some, of us have kids that don't sleep in the same room as us so at the very least I will need to leave my room and collect my kids bring them to my room or leave the house.

While staying your room with you weapons pointed at the door is the best scenario some of us don't have this option.

Preach on brother Yojimbo, preach on. I concur 110%.

Posted: 8/12/2005 8:50:28 AM EDT

[#21]

I think I know what you're trying to say, and my bedside shottie happens to hold double ought right now, but I've also seen what number six will do to a hog at close range. If it doesn't have time to spread, birdshot will eviscerate someone. No joke.

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The shotgun.

YEAH!!

With Bird shot too!! At close ranges, it's just like a dang ol' darn slug, Jethro!

Spoken like a true commando-wannabe that has never seen what 00 buck can do.

Posted: 8/12/2005 8:52:36 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
I'd also choose the Bushmaster with some sort of light.

On another note some, of us have kids that don't sleep in the same room as us so at the very least I will need to leave my room and collect my kids and bring them to my room or leave the house.

While staying your room with you weapons pointed at the door is the best scenario some of us don't have this option.

Yeah, that's a whole other problem. I have that problem myself. In my case I have to violate
my own rule of clearing a house, to get to my 10 year old.

My wife stays in the bedroom armed and on the phone, I have to get to the kids room.
Not a pretty situation that one.

I won't be returning to the master bedroom, my wife stays there and I stay in the kids room.
Start moving around and someone will get shot. But, this is worst case and I sure hope
it never happens, it has a very high chance of not ending well.

Posted: 8/12/2005 8:57:26 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If he doesn' have a gun I feel nearly 100% condifdent that me or my father could easily deal with him/her in a pyshical confrontation.

You need to get out more and see the seedier side of things. Go fight a guy who has been smooking PCP, meth, or even crack, and see how you rate your odds. Go fight with a guy who has 2 strikes, and would rather kill you than go back to prison. Get into a ground fight with a guy who has spent the last 10 years in prison pumping iron all day, then got out and got high, and is now coming down and looking for his next fix fast.

Someone breaking into your house is not the person you want to go hands on with. There are plenty of dead homeowners who have thought the same way as you up until the last few seconds of their lives.

Note- I'm not even bringing up edged weapons or blunt instruments....

So what should I do with SOMETHING like that? Shoot 'em?
Never mind my earlier comment. Since I know your an LEO I know that you are most likely capable of taking down one of these THINGS. Without asking my daddy, how would you deal with one of these THINGS? Mace might just make them more angry and I don't think they would feel it if it got hit in the head with a baseball bat. I am still going to be nieve and say that I could take 'em in a fight. I'm a pretty large person and am fairly strong. Never fought a crack or PCP fan though and we don't have any prisons around here.

Careful there friend! The last time I brought up home protection without the use of a firearm I was branded "Anti-Gun" and was accused of being against the right to own and bare arms! The PC answer for this question here would be: "Don't matter which gun just shoot the perp as quick as you can to keep yourself and your loved ones safe. Ask questions later".

Posted: 8/12/2005 8:57:45 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
I think I know what you're trying to say, and my bedside shottie happens to hold double ought right now, but I've also seen what number six will do to a hog at close range. If it doesn't have time to spread, birdshot will eviscerate someone. No joke.

I agree 100%. I said 00 b/c that's what the guy who started the thread said would be in the shottie.

Posted: 8/12/2005 8:59:57 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Quoted:
If he doesn' have a gun I feel nearly 100% condifdent that me or my father could easily deal with him/her in a pyshical confrontation.

You need to get out more and see the seedier side of things. Go fight a guy who has been smooking PCP, meth, or even crack, and see how you rate your odds. Go fight with a guy who has 2 strikes, and would rather kill you than go back to prison. Get into a ground fight with a guy who has spent the last 10 years in prison pumping iron all day, then got out and got high, and is now coming down and looking for his next fix fast.

Someone breaking into your house is not the person you want to go hands on with. There are plenty of dead homeowners who have thought the same way as you up until the last few seconds of their lives.

Note- I'm not even bringing up edged weapons or blunt instruments....

+1 The last thing you want is to fight someone involved in narcotics. It's not a TV show or a movie. The drug world is disgusting. I've personally been involved in 4 man pile ons to subdue addicts that just wouldnt give up. I've seen officers hurt and come into contact with saliva, urine and blood, all of which is scary as hell.

A stick is right, a two time loser facing hard time for a third offense may have zero issues with killing you and raping your wife and kids and giving them aids. I've stared down built like bulls 230lbs junkies that have been toughened by hard time in maximum security. Believe me, it isnt something I'd want to trade blows with.

If someone is in your home and you have the advantage of a firearm, use it

Posted: 8/12/2005 9:00:52 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Careful there friend! The last time I brought up home protection without the use of a firearm I was branded "Anti-Gun" and was accused of being against the right to own and bare arms! The PC answer for this question here would be: "Don't matter which gun just shoot the perp as quick as you can to keep yourself and your loved ones safe. Ask questions later".

Recommending otherwise inside your home where you have so much legal protection is just dumb.

How do you KNOW the other person is unarmed. You don't.
It's a stupid risk when you have both the moral and legal backing of castle doctrine.

Yell out that you are armed, if they don't leave, that is enough.

Doing a remake of Kill Bill in your living room in the middle of the night is a pretty stupid thing to do.

Posted: 8/12/2005 9:10:34 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd also choose the Bushmaster with some sort of light.

On another note some, of us have kids that don't sleep in the same room as us so at the very least I will need to leave my room and collect my kids and bring them to my room or leave the house.

While staying your room with you weapons pointed at the door is the best scenario some of us don't have this option.

Yeah, that's a whole other problem. I have that problem myself. In my case I have to violate
my own rule of clearing a house, to get to my 10 year old.

My wife stays in the bedroom armed and on the phone, I have to get to the kids room.
Not a pretty situation that one.

I won't be returning to the master bedroom, my wife stays there and I stay in the kids room.
Start moving around and someone will get shot. But, this is worst case and I sure hope
it never happens, it has a very high chance of not ending well.

I bring the problem even furthur, I have 3 kids, all small and with 2 off a separate hallway from the master and the third in a separate wing of the house.

WTF, do I do in this situation. I have all the weapons the original poster has as well, and I pretty much have to do SOMETHING to collect the younglings.

Posted: 8/12/2005 9:12:44 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

I bring the problem even furthur, I have 3 kids, all small and with 2 off a separate hallway from the master and the third in a separate wing of the house.

WTF, do I do in this situation. I have all the weapons the original poster has as well, and I pretty much have to do SOMETHING to collect the younglings.

Arm the butler.

Posted: 8/12/2005 9:15:26 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd also choose the Bushmaster with some sort of light.

On another note some, of us have kids that don't sleep in the same room as us so at the very least I will need to leave my room and collect my kids and bring them to my room or leave the house.

While staying your room with you weapons pointed at the door is the best scenario some of us don't have this option.

Yeah, that's a whole other problem. I have that problem myself. In my case I have to violate
my own rule of clearing a house, to get to my 10 year old.

My wife stays in the bedroom armed and on the phone, I have to get to the kids room.
Not a pretty situation that one.

I won't be returning to the master bedroom, my wife stays there and I stay in the kids room.
Start moving around and someone will get shot. But, this is worst case and I sure hope
it never happens, it has a very high chance of not ending well.

I bring the problem even furthur, I have 3 kids, all small and with 2 off a separate hallway from the master and the third in a separate wing of the house.

WTF, do I do in this situation. I have all the weapons the original poster has as well, and I pretty much have to do SOMETHING to collect the younglings.

You need a quick practiced plan to collect the family and secure yourselves from the threat. If that means having your wife collect the kids while YOU point the muzzle down the hallway, so be it.

Know where your light switches are, know how the shadows move in your house during the night. Place night lights in strategic spots to highlight body movements and shadows.

Plan plan plan. Practice practice practice.

Have a phone nearby. Know what to yell down the hall, etc.

Posted: 8/12/2005 9:23:06 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd also choose the Bushmaster with some sort of light.

On another note some, of us have kids that don't sleep in the same room as us so at the very least I will need to leave my room and collect my kids and bring them to my room or leave the house.

While staying your room with you weapons pointed at the door is the best scenario some of us don't have this option.

Yeah, that's a whole other problem. I have that problem myself. In my case I have to violate
my own rule of clearing a house, to get to my 10 year old.

My wife stays in the bedroom armed and on the phone, I have to get to the kids room.
Not a pretty situation that one.

I won't be returning to the master bedroom, my wife stays there and I stay in the kids room.
Start moving around and someone will get shot. But, this is worst case and I sure hope
it never happens, it has a very high chance of not ending well.

I bring the problem even furthur, I have 3 kids, all small and with 2 off a separate hallway from the master and the third in a separate wing of the house.

WTF, do I do in this situation. I have all the weapons the original poster has as well, and I pretty much have to do SOMETHING to collect the younglings.

You need a quick practiced plan to collect the family and secure yourselves from the threat. If that means having your wife collect the kids while YOU point the muzzle down the hallway, so be it.

Know where your light switches are, know how the shadows move in your house during the night. Place night lights in strategic spots to highlight body movements and shadows.

Plan plan plan. Practice practice practice.

Have a phone nearby. Know what to yell down the hall, etc.

Sorry for the hijack BTW. What if I leave my wife locked in the master, armed and calling the police. I head towards the two girls rooms armed while letting the dog out to investigate. That leaves the boy who is only 6 on the other side of the house fending for himself. I guess I could either have him come to me and the other kids or instruct him to stay locked in his room. I would hate to have anyone come running to me in such a situation, nerves being on end as they would be. This is a bad situation to handle all of them. Anyone selling a triple decker bunk bed?

Posted: 8/12/2005 9:31:36 AM EDT

[#31]

To me it would be the closest one that I can reach. I'm totally proficient with any of the three. Have an AR at home and use both the M4 and Beretta at work. Have a Browning A5 that has a 20" bbl that I use as a riot gun. But given the choice if all were within reach and loaded then the pistol while I'm on the phone then the shotgun. AR would be past to either the wife or son.

Final note if no ammo avaible then I'll adding my pig sticker on the end of the AR! If no bayonet then the shotgun for jabbing and buttstroke attacks.

CD

Posted: 8/12/2005 9:33:11 AM EDT

[#32]

I didn't realize was part of the 'hijack' until just now...oops!

M4....but get a damn light. If you can't secure it for long term easy access storage, Beretta.

Posted: 8/12/2005 9:46:07 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Careful there friend! The last time I brought up home protection without the use of a firearm I was branded "Anti-Gun" and was accused of being against the right to own and bare arms! The PC answer for this question here would be: "Don't matter which gun just shoot the perp as quick as you can to keep yourself and your loved ones safe. Ask questions later".

I wouldn't say yer anti-gun, just dillusional to think that using a gun or having one in an emergency such as a home invasion is a bad idea. Of course, I've been through a home invasion so my prospective on the subject comes from a little more reality based position. If you don't want tuse one or have one on hand just incase, it's yer funeral not mine so do as you wish.

Posted: 8/12/2005 10:47:55 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Remember guys, I just want to know which would work best out of my three choices. The thread seems to be straying from my initial question. Remember, choices include:

1. Bushmaster M4: TD Vertical Grip, GG&G A2 BUIS, Phantom 5C1, Samco M33, Houge Rubber Grip, Larue M68 with Aimpoint Comp ML2; 31 rounds

2. Beretta 96 Vertec: Insight M6; 11 rounds (.40 S&W)

3. Browing Auto 5; 5 rounds of 00 Buck

And lets pretend that they all are right beside me and easy to access.

If you would like you can go back and edited out your off topic post to suit the needs of this thread. I would like to add that after hearing what everyone has to say about "drug people" I think I will do everything in my power to attempt to grab some type of weapon instead of my bare hands.

Part of the reason you see it straying is because ther eis no real correct answer execpt whichever one is closest when you need one. it could be anyone of them, there is the ideal weapon to have, in my case it's an AR and the facts to support that as the right choice are out there. and there is what you will have, which may or may not be your ideal choice. The only way to make sure you will have the one YOU think will work best, is to carry it around with you, on your person at all times. The best is always relative to what is on hand. If all you have is a knife and a .22lr pistol, give me the pistol. IF you got an AT4 and a rifle, well the AT4 may give you some problems in the house. See what I'm saying. There is no best, only what you have when oyu need it.

Posted: 8/12/2005 10:16:57 AM EDT

[#35]

I personally have fought with a suspect that was high on PCP. I was not fun we fouhgt for about five min (thats long for a fight) and it took 3 other officers to help get him into custody. When we were done we were covered in his blood. When they are high they do not feel anything nor get tired.

I have also worked a shooting were a burglar was breaking into the victims home and the victim shot the burglar in the face with a glock 19. When i arrived the victim (he was in the front yard) still had the pistol in his hand and he almost got shot by me. So if you ever have to be in that situation conceal your weapon and let the officers know you have it when they get there. The victim did not go to jail but we did take his gun for testing. I am sure he will get it back when they finish with it.

Posted: 8/12/2005 10:21:20 AM EDT

[#36]

Remember guys, I just want to know which would work best out of my three choices. The thread seems to be straying from my initial question. Remember, choices include:

1. Bushmaster M4: TD Vertical Grip, GG&G A2 BUIS, Phantom 5C1, Samco M33, Houge Rubber Grip, Larue M68 with Aimpoint Comp ML2; 31 rounds

2. Beretta 96 Vertec: Insight M6; 11 rounds (.40 S&W)

3. Browing Auto 5; 5 rounds of 00 Buck

And lets pretend that they all are right beside me and easy to access.

If you would like you can go back and edited out your off topic post to suit the needs of this thread. I would like to add that after hearing what everyone has to say about "drug people" I think I will do everything in my power to attempt to grab some type of weapon instead of my bare hands.

Posted: 8/12/2005 11:04:39 AM EDT

[#37]

I'd say the shotgun, plain and simple. If someone is attacking you more then likely you will be nervous, firing a pistol accurately rapidly is kinda hard if your nervous most of the shots will prolly miss.

The AR would be nice but in a small room I'd take a shotgun, easier to aim and when you hit him more then likely you wont need to shoot him again.

Im thinking about fixxing up me a tactical .12 GA for in the house defence. With a light and stuff, either dual pistol grips and sawed barrel or short barrel+exteded mag capacity.

Posted: 8/12/2005 11:09:23 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
I'd say the shotgun, plain and simple. If someone is attacking you more then likely you will be nervous, firing a pistol accurately rapidly is kinda hard if your nervous most of the shots will prolly miss.

The AR would be nice but in a small room I'd take a shotgun, easier to aim and when you hit him more then likely you wont need to shoot him again.

Im thinking about fixxing up me a tactical .12 GA for in the house defence. With a light and stuff, either dual pistol grips and sawed barrel or short barrel+exteded mag capacity.

Shot gun will be just as hard to aim, and even with buckshot you still need to aim. And yes you may very well need to shoot again, you shoot till the threat is stopped, not just once or twice. You may have to unload the entire magazine or only one or two rounds, you never know.

Also in a small room a carbine is still shorter by 2inches then the shortest non NFA shotgun you can get. A pistol grip only shotgun is not conducive to good accurecy and is really not the greatest thing for a defensive weapon.

Posted: 8/12/2005 11:15:07 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Shot gun will be just as hard to aim, and even with buckshot you still need to aim.

Yes, with the shottie you still need to aim, but it is more forgiving than the other two.

A pistol grip only shotgun is not conducive to good accurecy and is really not the greatest thing for a defensive weapon.

It is accurate enough for the average size house where engagements are going to be close range, especially if the first round is already chambered (as it should be). And a blast of 12 gauge 00 is pretty high up on the greatest thing for (legal) defensive weapon list IMO.

Posted: 8/12/2005 11:16:01 AM EDT

[#40]

My opinion, with a little experience. Here are the pros and cons... BTW, I think the AR is the best weapon.

Pistol-
Pros
Higher capacity than the shotgun.
More manueverable than both long arms.
Cons
Worst for stopping power.
Worst for shot placement (shoulder fired arms superior).

Shotgun
Pros
Better shot placement than pistol.
Excellent stopping power with buckshot.
Cons
Recoil makes follow up shots harder than rifle.
Lowest mag capacity.
Less maneuverability than pistol.
Noise.

M4
Pros
Best shot placement, better follow up shots (best sight system, less recoil).
Best firepower with high mag capacity.
Excellent stopping power, yes 5.56 at short range will mess you up.
I assume there is a light in that long list of crap, lights are essential for home defense so you don't shoot the wrong target.
Cons
Less maneuverable than a pistol.
Noise.

Whenever your life is on the line, never settle for "good enough," bring the best you have.

Posted: 8/12/2005 11:20:10 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
My opinion, with a little experience. Here are the pros and cons... BTW, I think the AR is the best weapon.

M4
Pros
Best shot placement, better follow up shots (best sight system, less recoil).
Best firepower with high mag capacity.
Excellent stopping power, yes 5.56 at short range will mess you up.
I assume there is a light in that long list of crap, lights are essential for home defense so you don't shoot the wrong target.
Cons
Less maneuverable than a pistol.
Noise.

Whenever your life is on the line, never settle for "good enough," bring the best you have.

I copy and paste this quite often lately.

An old post.......

I hear it often. Its not uncommon for people with little to no firearms experience to come and ask for “something” for their home.
It happened again the other day, with a couple in their 20s. They both admit to having fired guns in the past, but have never owned any. Of course the “girl” is the concern, they want something she can use.

There are two other people in the shop with me. A city Cop(Police Station is next door), and a regular customer. Cop says 12 gauge shotgun, other guy says revolver, and I say AR. We intensely discuss amongst the 3 of us why the other is wrong, and the couple leaves totally confused without buying anything.

I have a young lady who helps me out in the shop part time. She’s not a shooter, knows little about firearms, but handles customers and phone calls better than I am willing to.

The extent of her firearms knowledge is she completed one of my basic pistol/CCW classes. She understands the basics and can hammer away at the bullseye with a .22 all day long. She doesn’t own a pistol of her own, and has never fired a rifle or shotgun.

What a PERFECT guinea pig! I cant imagine someone closer to “picked off the street” while still knowing basic firearms safety. We closed up shop, grabbed a revolver, an AR and a shotgun and headed to the range.

I set up the target, and paced off 25’. I walked back to the target and told her to start counting “Mississippis” when I started to run, and to stop when I got to her. She didn’t have time to get out the 3rd Mississippi. There was her scenario, bad guy is coming at her, and she knows how much time she has to get off 3 shots. She’ll do this 3 times with each firearm.

Shes familiar with the Revolver, so its first. It’s a S&W 686 KG koted black with a Crimson Trace laser grip, and custom low pro sights. At this distance the dot is visible.

686 video

Second is the AR. I grabbed the least expensive one in the shop, RRA CAR A4. I installed an Aimpoint from a display and swapped on a Fobus forend and vertical grip; sufficient for home defense. I spent a few minutes going over how to hold the carbine, position, and such, some dry firing, but NO live fire. The only live rounds fired will be at the target.

AR video

Finally we have the shotgun. Simple, Remington 870, w/20” barrel. The ammo will be PMC low recoil 00 Buck. Again, this is new so I spent a few minutes going over how to hold the shotgun, position, and such, some dry firing, but NO live fire. The only live rounds fired will be at the target. Before anything else, I cant tell you how impressed I am with the way she handled the shotgun. It looked brutal, but she toughed it out for the 3 round string. She chose not to fire the shotgun a second and 3rd time.

12 Gauge video

Keep in mind the “I want something for home defense” buyers aren’t shooters, and don’t hang out in gun forums. These are people who make a purchase, shot it once and toss it in a drawer/closet. What they need is something that is easy to use, easy to control, and something they can use without much practice.

Here are the 3 targets, judge for yourself which was easier for her to use in the shortest amount of time/training. Before the first shot was fired, she know it would be the revolver, but changed her mind when she was done.
686

AR

Shotgun

Posted: 8/12/2005 11:30:11 AM EDT

[#42]

Great post bigbore.

And thats without a shitload of adrenalin rushing though you, and a lot of other things that go on it that split second that lasts forever and a lot of other things that happn to you in a fight or flight moment when flight just isn't an option.

Posted: 8/12/2005 11:36:05 AM EDT

[#43]

To be serious, it seems to me the factual answer depends on two things:

1) Which one is closest

2) Which one are you most profficient with. (This should in a perfect world be irrelevant as you should take it as your responsibility to become profficient with all 3)

</serious>

Most firepower? 30 rnds vs. 9 pellets x 5 rnds

Posted: 8/12/2005 12:00:41 PM EDT

[#44]

Ideally I would use my AR, while also armed with my pistol. I don't have a shotgun suitable for self defense. The AR is probably a better weapon for home defense, but I am more confident with my pistol and the main advantage I have with an AR is outdoors, plus its much better terminal ballistics. If I could have both on me when things went bump, I can always allow an intruder who gets close enough to grab the rifles muzzle to take the weapon, then shoot him. If I am dressed, I have a flashlight and Benchmade folder on me. Thats a hard and fast rule for me for over two years now--you get used to a folder clipped to a pocket and a Surefire in another. Either one can be used as a weapon up close. I though I was going to have to fight a significantly larger guy one time, using the flashlight as an impact weapon, but he didn't want to play.

The weapon mounted light on the AR is very good, but I'm pretty good with the Harries technique as well, and indoors do not feel undergunned with my pistol.

I would avoid the shotgun. They are LONG unless you have a 12" or so stock and an NFA barrel. The terminal ballistics are not much better than the AR, and they take more training and practice to utilize effectively if you have to engage multiple adversaries and reload. They also will not penetrate body armor, which the rifle will do all day long.

Posted: 8/12/2005 12:08:33 PM EDT

[#45]

Great post bigbore.
+2

Posted: 8/12/2005 12:09:47 PM EDT

[#46]

It's not terribly likely your home will be invaded by teams of body armored crackheads.

Posted: 8/12/2005 12:26:54 PM EDT

[#47]

Extreme CQB is like fighting in CLOSETS

Posted: 8/12/2005 12:28:23 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
It's not terribly likely your home will be invaded by teams of body armored crackheads.

The crack is the armor. Back in the late 70's, the big thing around here was PCP mixed with some other drug, not sure what. Some guy got in a shot out with the local PD, and when it was all said and done the bad guy had 27 rounds in him (3 in the head). The first round hit him in the first 1 minute, while the last few rounds went in at the end of the 10 minute shootout. These were all .38 +P+ and 45ACP rounds at 15 yards.

Use the shotgun, and get one made for defense ASAP. Train for 2 shots to the chest, 1 to the head. Crack or no crack, you dont operate with pits of ur sternum blown out your ass and pieces of your face on the wall behind you.

Posted: 8/12/2005 12:31:55 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

The crack is the armor. Back in the late 70's, the big thing around here was PCP mixed with some other drug, not sure what. Some guy got in a shot out with the local PD, and when it was all said and done the bad guy had 27 rounds in him (3 in the head). The first round hit him in the first 1 minute, while the last few rounds went in at the end of the 10 minute shootout. These were all .38 +P+ and 45ACP rounds at 15 yards.

Use the shotgun, and get one made for defense ASAP. Train for 2 shots to the chest, 1 to the head. Crack or no crack, you dont operate with pits of ur sternum blown out your ass and pieces of your face on the wall behind you.

We don't disagree. My point was you don't need armor piercing, you need destruction of the human electrical/mechanical systems.

Posted: 8/12/2005 12:35:09 PM EDT

[#50]

145" M4/A1 carbine with night sights and a rugged light is the ideal firearm out there for a bump-in-the-night gun, assuming you have the means to store it....again.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Wondering What Would Be Best For Extreme CQB? (Page 1 of 2)

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