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Posted: 3/18/2013 7:45:12 AM EDT
I've got bills to pay from my wife's stroke. What is a fair price in todays market?

It has been used very little, mounted and sighted in and only used for one hunt. Performs perfectly.

Bought from a vender on this site.

Thanks in advance folks. Just trying to gauge what is fair and I'll stick it up on the EE.

Semper Fidelis,

Kent
Link Posted: 3/18/2013 7:51:06 AM EDT
i'm curious as to why they cannot be sold in the EE if legaly acquired.
for a starting point, they are 2k new on the bay if you are LEO, respectably
Link Posted: 3/18/2013 8:32:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/18/2013 8:33:26 AM EDT by great308]
According to EE none are acquired legally. They say no civi should have one what so ever and if you le/mil then it belongs to the agency those work for. I don't know that I believe that...

It bugs me that cause its a high power laser civis can't buy them retail.

As for price I've seen them go to civi for 4000 to 5000 on egay. Just watch out for the men in black as they might challenge that its not legal.
Link Posted: 3/18/2013 8:46:03 AM EDT
$2,000-2,300 but I have never, ever seen any one "sell" for over $3,300 on ebay or any other site.
Link Posted: 3/18/2013 10:15:40 AM EDT
Well, I did buy mine from a vendor here. There is nothing illegal about owning them. The distributors and dealers can lose their accounts if they sell them to civilians, but as a civilian there is nothing illegal about having it.

It is for sale. So you guys are saying that AR15 will prevent me from selling this on the Equipment exchange even though it was legally purchased?

I wouldn't be selling if not for huge medical bills from my wife's stroke at age 35.

Perhaps I should just keep it and say I want free medical care like many people do ;)

Any advice on where to sell it then?

Kent
Link Posted: 3/18/2013 10:46:56 AM EDT
arfcom has a clear warning about selling those devices and it states "will result in an account lock" or something like that
looks like there is one up now and going strong plus you will sell it for a decent price guaranteed on the bay rather than fussing with these arfcom types
Link Posted: 3/18/2013 10:47:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/18/2013 4:23:35 PM EDT by Dino1130]
Aimless said no more military IR lasers will be sold in the EE. I think he has a sticky up in EE that discusses this exact topic. The Feds infiltrated EE and several other night vision forums rounding them all up a couple years back. I am sure they still watch. They are not illegal to own but there is no legal way to get them and the Gov will confiscate them when they find the units. Sure, you can fight them in court if you like. I am sure you will spend way over the value of the laser in legal bills.

I think this is all BS but it is what it is. It is a complicated topic that really has little to do with stolen or not. They are sold all over the world to our military allies. If you buy one outside of the US and bring it back you violated import laws. I read on this topic extensively and never found a legal way to own one in the US outside of DMRO screwing up and you have a receipt. That said, many guys own them, we just don't talk about them. Unfortunately some type of covert sale is the only safe way to sell one. Don't put it on eBay, they will zero in on you very fast and we will have a thread about DHS taking your laser. We have already had a few of these and they are always sad.

Another downside to these is you can never send them back to the manufacturer if you need service, they will confiscate them and hand them over to the Feds. You could of bought one from a legitimate dealer and the Feds will still trace it back to its original owner and take it because it should never have been sold in the first place. I really don't know why they have such a hard on for these. The 20lb bottle of propane any kid can buy at a local store is far more dangerous than a IR laser. Plenty of vids of people taking the laser out of DVD players and burning stuff. They look evil so we can't have them. I have no idea why.
Link Posted: 3/18/2013 9:46:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dino1130:
Aimless said no more military IR lasers will be sold in the EE. I think he has a sticky up in EE that discusses this exact topic. The Feds infiltrated EE and several other night vision forums rounding them all up a couple years back. I am sure they still watch. They are not illegal to own but there is no legal way to get them and the Gov will confiscate them when they find the units. Sure, you can fight them in court if you like. I am sure you will spend way over the value of the laser in legal bills.

I think this is all BS but it is what it is. It is a complicated topic that really has little to do with stolen or not. They are sold all over the world to our military allies. If you buy one outside of the US and bring it back you violated import laws. I read on this topic extensively and never found a legal way to own one in the US outside of DMRO screwing up and you have a receipt. That said, many guys own them, we just don't talk about them. Unfortunately some type of covert sale is the only safe way to sell one. Don't put it on eBay, they will zero in on you very fast and we will have a thread about DHS taking your laser. We have already had a few of these and they are always sad.

Another downside to these is you can never send them back to the manufacturer if you need service, they will confiscate them and hand them over to the Feds. You could of bought one from a legitimate dealer and the Feds will still trace it back to its original owner and take it because it should never have been sold in the first place. I really don't know why they have such a hard on for these. The 20lb bottle of propane any kid can buy at a local store is far more dangerous than a IR laser. Plenty of vids of people taking the laser out of DVD players and burning stuff. They look evil so we can't have them. I have no idea why.


^^ Exactly!
Link Posted: 3/18/2013 10:49:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/18/2013 10:50:19 PM EDT by Barliman]

Originally Posted By Dino1130:
Plenty of vids of people taking the laser out of DVD players and burning stuff. They look evil so we can't have them. I have no idea why.

The 20 lb propane tank is not easily concealed or re-useable as a weapon.

The AN/PEQ-15 can be "weaponized" fairly easily and used in a variety of ways that could cause havoc. (I am not going to engage in conversations public or private with respect to ANY details on this topic)

I generally favor letting the public have most toys the LE/Mil have access to ... but not in this case.

OP - Might I suggest you try to find an understanding LE agency willing to buy your AN/PEQ-15? I know you will not get as much for it ... but you certainly don't need more trouble in your life right now and I think you now have a sense of what might come your way by trying a public sale to a civilian. I have said a prayer for you and your wife.
Link Posted: 3/18/2013 11:34:43 PM EDT
If it's from the same batch I'm thinking of then it is legal as far as I understand the law. AFAIK a local police deparment bought a bunch didn't use them and sold them to the vendor.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 12:04:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2013 12:05:35 AM EDT by Dino1130]
Originally Posted By Barliman:

Originally Posted By Dino1130:
Plenty of vids of people taking the laser out of DVD players and burning stuff. They look evil so we can't have them. I have no idea why.

The 20 lb propane tank is not easily concealed or re-useable as a weapon.

The AN/PEQ-15 can be "weaponized" fairly easily and used in a variety of ways that could cause havoc. (I am not going to engage in conversations public or private with respect to ANY details on this topic)

I generally favor letting the public have most toys the LE/Mil have access to ... but not in this case.

OP - Might I suggest you try to find an understanding LE agency willing to buy your AN/PEQ-15? I know you will not get as much for it ... but you certainly don't need more trouble in your life right now and I think you now have a sense of what might come your way by trying a public sale to a civilian. I have said a prayer for you and your wife.


Going into details would not be good and I agree. I do think I can safely say far more powerful lasers can be commercially bought and nobody gives a damn. I see them on eBay all the time. It would not take a technological wizard to have something far more powerful than a PEQ-15. Many things can be weaponized (60hz thermal units). I just think this is stupid. A PEQ-15 can be used for nefarious purposes but so can many other things we legally can own. Where do you draw the line ?

On the upside the civvy units are pretty good though many would like to see just a bit more power for bad conditions. In all honesty the military units bloom to much at closer ranges even on low power. I don't have a need for military units but IR laser illuminators are very useful. UK guys buy them without any restrictions. We can't which is sad.

Link Posted: 3/19/2013 6:12:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2013 7:59:53 AM EDT by CTM1]
Originally Posted By Barliman:

Originally Posted By Dino1130:
Plenty of vids of people taking the laser out of DVD players and burning stuff. They look evil so we can't have them. I have no idea why.

The 20 lb propane tank is not easily concealed or re-useable as a weapon.

The AN/PEQ-15 can be "weaponized" fairly easily and used in a variety of ways that could cause havoc. (I am not going to engage in conversations public or private with respect to ANY details on this topic)

I generally favor letting the public have most toys the LE/Mil have access to ... but not in this case.

OP - Might I suggest you try to find an understanding LE agency willing to buy your AN/PEQ-15? I know you will not get as much for it ... but you certainly don't need more trouble in your life right now and I think you now have a sense of what might come your way by trying a public sale to a civilian. I have said a prayer for you and your wife.


Not sure if I should laugh at this statement or scratch my head because maybe a PE15 can be turned into a light saber after all and I was not aware of it.
The item in question is meant to go on a firearm, does it get any more dangerous than this if used improperly?
Everyone sees and reads the news about dips who point lasers where they should not etc and sadly some of these dips are not aware of the potential dangers it poses to peoples eyes. This cloak and dagger BS that certain things should not be discussed because it could be dangerous is ridiculous as this is the net, nothing is secret.
Like Dino said there are far more powerful lasers that can be had, heck a quick Youtube search shows laser demonstrations that are far more dangerous than anything a PEQ15 can do. There are so many products that we come into contact with everyday that have the potential to be dangerous and even deadly especially when an idiot is allowed to operate them. This is why the FDA has the restrictions on these to begin with as they deem us all to be idiots and thus not trustworthy to have such items.
on
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 6:32:05 AM EDT
More like right on!
Just because some people are dumbasses and don’t feel like they are responsible enough to own one, doesn't mean we all are.
But for a technical forum… we digress.
Sell it on ebay is the correct answer for the OP. 3 day auction it and you will probably get $1500-1700
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 6:59:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Callahan:
If it's from the same batch I'm thinking of then it is legal as far as I understand the law. AFAIK a local police deparment bought a bunch didn't use them and sold them to the vendor.


Yep
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 7:06:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Barliman:

Originally Posted By Dino1130:
Plenty of vids of people taking the laser out of DVD players and burning stuff. They look evil so we can't have them. I have no idea why.

The 20 lb propane tank is not easily concealed or re-useable as a weapon.

The AN/PEQ-15 can be "weaponized" fairly easily and used in a variety of ways that could cause havoc. (I am not going to engage in conversations public or private with respect to ANY details on this topic)

I generally favor letting the public have most toys the LE/Mil have access to ... but not in this case.

OP - Might I suggest you try to find an understanding LE agency willing to buy your AN/PEQ-15? I know you will not get as much for it ... but you certainly don't need more trouble in your life right now and I think you now have a sense of what might come your way by trying a public sale to a civilian. I have said a prayer for you and your wife.


Are you saying that the laser itself is the dangerous part?

I know where I can buy a 4 Watt IR laser right now if I wanted to.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 7:38:20 AM EDT
I always kind of assumed the guys in that HS office who seized all the lasers on here and elsewhere where basically operating under their own orders/no supervision and while they're technically recovering potentially stolen gov't property, they seemed like real dickbags who had a self-imposed mission to keep our streets safe from the dangerous lasers.

So, sure a peq unit could be used on high power to potentially blind people (worst case: pilots), or used for remotely aiming some kind of heavy weapon, like some twist on the movie "The Jackal" but that is such an unlikely threat, it's almost laughable.

I can buy a 100mW green laser or even more powerful blue ones commercially on ebay without even proving that i'm 18 or a US citizen.

How could a thermal unit become weaponized? Broad strokes here - I thought thermal was passive, do the higher end units emit any sort of beam? Or are you refering to the IR pointer many come equipped with?
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 7:48:01 AM EDT
What is the value of a AN/PEQ-15 that was acquired legally?

The FDA requires ALL laser unit importers and manufactures to be registered this does not excludes component manufactures and sales however the rules are some what different for them. When a manufacture registers with the FDA he agrees to follow FDA rules. FDA rules basically state that a manufacture can not make and sell units with IR laser where the beam is exposed in a way that it may come into contact with the human eye if the output power is greater than .7mw. One would be inclined to ask how the military obtained such units if they can not be manufactured or imported? The answer is that the FDA has what is called a variance it is for rare cases where there is a compelling need for something that will violate FDA rules, it does not cancel the rules it simply allows for the unit to be built and sold with it's own rules, rules dictated by the FDA . In the case of IR aiming units the rules basically state that that the units are to be sold with conditions. The conditions are basically are that the can not be sold to individuals, and can only be sold or resold to qualifying agencies and if the agency no longer wants the unit it must be destroyed, returned or sold to another qualifying agency. The variance is and FDA rule and if violated can get the violator fines and or prison time. While buying a military IR laser unit "might" not be a crime, knowingly selling them in violation of the variance is. At any rate the government has a right to take them back when they find them in and individuals hands.

Just a couple of notes,
There is a reason for the FDA rule it's called eye safety, you may not agree, but where do you draw the line, at some point it does become a safety problem, it might be .7mw they most likely have it right but it certainly is not 1 watt. and all of us know that you would find people playing with 1 watt laser aiming devices if they were available.

A manufacture is someone that makes units for sale, hence modifying or making your own does not fall under FDA rules.

That is a civilians take on things after much reading on the subject.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 8:03:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino1130:
Originally Posted By Barliman:

Originally Posted By Dino1130:
Plenty of vids of people taking the laser out of DVD players and burning stuff. They look evil so we can't have them. I have no idea why.

The 20 lb propane tank is not easily concealed or re-useable as a weapon.

The AN/PEQ-15 can be "weaponized" fairly easily and used in a variety of ways that could cause havoc. (I am not going to engage in conversations public or private with respect to ANY details on this topic)

I generally favor letting the public have most toys the LE/Mil have access to ... but not in this case.

OP - Might I suggest you try to find an understanding LE agency willing to buy your AN/PEQ-15? I know you will not get as much for it ... but you certainly don't need more trouble in your life right now and I think you now have a sense of what might come your way by trying a public sale to a civilian. I have said a prayer for you and your wife.


Going into details would not be good and I agree. I do think I can safely say far more powerful lasers can be commercially bought and nobody gives a damn. I see them on eBay all the time. It would not take a technological wizard to have something far more powerful than a PEQ-15. Many things can be weaponized (60hz thermal units). I just think this is stupid. A PEQ-15 can be used for nefarious purposes but so can many other things we legally can own. Where do you draw the line ?

On the upside the civvy units are pretty good though many would like to see just a bit more power for bad conditions. In all honesty the military units bloom to much at closer ranges even on low power. I don't have a need for military units but IR laser illuminators are very useful. UK guys buy them without any restrictions. We can't which is sad.


Dino - I am familiar with the items which can be commercially purchased. If you consider them broadly you may see limitations in their capabilities. The AN/PEQ-15 has a different set of capabilities. Perhaps the UK authorities have a different perspective on the risks. Personally, I wasn't aware our AN/PEQ-15 was available to civilians in the UK.

For everyone else - if YOU can't see the potential problems? Great! That makes me very happy!

Perhaps you should spend more time on Failblog.org and consider when the moron hurts himself its funny ... the idea of morons hurting mass quantities of innocents is not funny ,,, is it?

Link Posted: 3/19/2013 8:09:21 AM EDT
I would think a moron could do more damage with a gun. Should we ban those too?
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 8:18:48 AM EDT
hugh1 certainly not knocking your post but what you conveyed has been posted and discussed here on numerous occassions through the years.
The NV forum users know the deal.

My point and a point I think others would agree with is that these units are meant to be weapon/firearm mounted.
So we can be trusted (obviously some disagree) to own a gun which has the potential of being lethal but I cannot not own a hi power laser designed to go on that very firearm that at worst can only put my eye out. It is just stupid on its face. Again, there is always go to be stupid among us.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 8:45:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CTM1:
hugh1 certainly not knocking your post but what you conveyed has been posted and discussed here on numerous occassions through the years.
The NV forum users know the deal.

My point and a point I think others would agree with is that these units are meant to be weapon/firearm mounted.
So we can be trusted (obviously some disagree) to own a gun which has the potential of being lethal but I cannot not own a hi power laser designed to go on that very firearm that at worst can only put my eye out. It is just stupid on its face. Again, there is always go to be stupid among us.


I believe this is the real issue here. People will not treat the PEQ in the same manner they would for a gun (proper muzzle discipline, to be specific). Although you are not likely to load a gun and look down the muzzle, people may be inclined to look into the "invisible" beam or shine it into someone else's eyes, and then we have a problem. It's a hard concept to visualize (no pun intended); that something you can't see and seems so harmless could ruin your life. Those suckers are powerful, and like I said people may not give them the respect they deserve.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 8:57:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2013 8:57:57 AM EDT by hugh1]
Originally Posted By CTM1:
hugh1 certainly not knocking your post but what you conveyed has been posted and discussed here on numerous occassions through the years.
The NV forum users know the deal.

My point and a point I think others would agree with is that these units are meant to be weapon/firearm mounted.
So we can be trusted (obviously some disagree) to own a gun which has the potential of being lethal but I cannot not own a hi power laser designed to go on that very firearm that at worst can only put my eye out. It is just stupid on its face. Again, there is always go to be stupid among us.



I agree, it makes no sense that you can not blind your target a second before you put it's lights out permanently. I did not intend my post to argue against IR lasers only to inform people of what I see as the facts and that Uncle Sam is a part of the equation like it or not. It is also most likely why IR lasers units can not be sold on EE.

Link Posted: 3/19/2013 9:00:11 AM EDT
That's definitely a problem, and a laser that's adjusted properly to prevent beam divergence can be dangerous well beyond the range of most typical firearms.

I think the root issue is that some people think they can legislate away stupidity - sometimes stupid hurts and sometimes stupid kills. Most of us hope that fatally stupid people only hurt or kill themselves, but these devices make it easy for stupids to hurt others.

The reality of it all is that some of the dumbest of our herd might be serving us best by dying without passing their stupidity on, but these same people who might peer into the aperture on an ATPIAL despite the concise hazard label, or point it at someone elses face, have a lot of institutions looking out for them first and foremost.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 4:33:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2013 3:21:20 PM EDT by cj7hawk]

Small, rifle-mounted lasers are not really a significant danger to anyone or they simply would not be issued to soldiers either. NOHD's are fairly low and they are more a danger to the people using them than to others given most of the likely usage. Even then, a little training renders their use relatively safe.

I doubt the reasons that are leading to the heavy-handed regulation this forum has seen have been based on realistic fears. Instead, it's more likely that it is driven by irrational political fears.

Otherwise, I cannot imagine why there is so much being expended on the resources used to recover units that were purchased legitimately.

Regards
David


Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:24:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2013 5:34:20 PM EDT by jrpett]
Originally Posted By hugh1:
Originally Posted By CTM1:
hugh1 certainly not knocking your post but what you conveyed has been posted and discussed here on numerous occassions through the years.
The NV forum users know the deal.

My point and a point I think others would agree with is that these units are meant to be weapon/firearm mounted.
So we can be trusted (obviously some disagree) to own a gun which has the potential of being lethal but I cannot not own a hi power laser designed to go on that very firearm that at worst can only put my eye out. It is just stupid on its face. Again, there is always go to be stupid among us.



I agree, it makes no sense that you can not blind your target a second before you put it's lights out permanently. I did not intend my post to argue against IR lasers only to inform people of what I see as the facts and that Uncle Sam is a part of the equation like it or not. It is also most likely why IR lasers units can not be sold on EE.



The reason that IR lasers can't be sold here is because site staff got tired of sellers here being threatened and extorted into surrendering their lasers by the 2 feds that were trolling these forums. They would do this using their usual fear tactics and claiming that 100% of IR lasers were stolen. There was a thread here or in the lights & lasers forum in which someone called their bluff. He pointed out a PEQ-15 on Ebay in which the serial number was clearly visible and asked him if it was stolen? He actually admitted that there was no record of it being missing or stolen. In fact, he admitted that it didn't even show as entering into US Govt inventory and that there was nothing he could do. But you damn well know if he hadn't been called out on it, he would have contacted the seller and demanded he turn it in as it "must be stolen". Who knows, he still may have done that.
Anyone here remember that thread?

EDIT: The first post by Aimless explains the threats & trolling. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_7_148/916796_No_more_sales_of_infra_red_non_visible_military_lasers_sales_will_result_in_account_lock.html


From this post:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_7_148/909586_Important_information_concerning_IR_lasers_.html
Here is the exact statement about the lasers being "stolen" yet he admitted that he couldn't prove the one on Ebay was stolen:

"To summarize, military lasers that require an FDA variance such as L-3 Insight and B.E. Meyers products are only sold to the military and law enforcement through direct agency purchasing only. They cannot be sold to the public via Government auctions or DRMO and must be completely destroyed when taken out of service. ALL such products that are for sale on internet forums and eBay have been stolen. We have recovered dozens of units and not a single one was "legally” purchased from a retailer as the sellers claimed."

I'm still looking for the thread where he was called out on the PEQ-15 on Ebay.


Link Posted: 3/19/2013 6:29:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2013 9:55:26 PM EDT by Dino1130]
I think the whole stolen thing Agent Wu was talking about was all a ruse. Obviously nobody wants truly stolen goods. I think most ARF guys would want stolen property to go back to the rightful owner be it our troops or private ownership. The key was his "secret move" he talked about. That was the FDA laser laws. He knew from the beginning stolen or not made no difference. He just wanted guys to show themselves and say mine is not stolen !

Then he says gotcha ! He will use those FDA laws to threaten and intimidate. I am not a lawyer but most will turn them over rather than fight. He knew that. I give old Agent Wu credit for not being dumb. He knew what he was doing any many folks lost lasers until his motives were known. He did this on several night vision forums and I got into a heated argument with him at another night vision forum. Cj7Hawk and Hugh were all witness to this train wreck.

I would love to see someone actually fight them over this with a laser that is 100% not stolen. Most are scared and their lasers went so far underground they will never surface on a forum again. Sales on PVC pipe and shovels probably tripled after their tirades. That said I don't know what Wu accomplished. Everybody trashed their ImageShack accounts and purged every picture that had anything military (tubes, lasers, parts etc...). The forum went from a wealth of photos to a graveyard overnight. People panicked and I don't blame them. Now Agent Wu has nothing. Not sure that was a smart tactic and was most likely why they were told to stop posting. I am sure they still watch but nobody will admit to owning anything anymore or God forbid post any pics.

One of the guys over at Nightvisionforums lost a PEQ that was imported from the UK. It certainly was not stolen. Wu threatened him and he turned it over, never to be seen again. We all were cheering for him in the background to fight but he eventually found it easier to turn it over. That was the day I refused to ever post another picture. I think we all lost that day. I supported Agent Wu on his effort to find stolen property. Once I found out his true motives our friendship ended. I was duped like many others. I am also ashamed I fell for it. I can promise you it will NEVER happen again.
Link Posted: 3/20/2013 11:33:54 AM EDT
I hope the OP was contacted by, and sold to a member here and that this nice, legitimate PEQ-15 stays in the hands of those who appreciate it. But I just have this awful feeling that Wu, or some other Fed., using a shill account, contacted & threatened the OP and the laser is already in the mail and on it's way to Seattle. I sure hope not.
I'm pretty sure that their accounts were locked or they were banned, so if they are contacting people by IM, they're doing it from a shill account, in violation of Arfcom policy.

OP, if this happens to you, report it to site staff so they can have their shill account banned also.
Link Posted: 3/20/2013 1:25:52 PM EDT
Wait, Brits can get PEQs??

Would it be legal for them to buy a few and sell them to us???


Can I be first on that list?

Link Posted: 3/20/2013 2:21:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mr_Happyface:
Wait, Brits can get PEQs??

Would it be legal for them to buy a few and sell them to us???


Can I be first on that list?



Yes.

No. It violates US import law.
Link Posted: 3/20/2013 2:36:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Originally Posted By Mr_Happyface:
Wait, Brits can get PEQs??

Would it be legal for them to buy a few and sell them to us???


Can I be first on that list?



Yes.

No. It violates US import law.



ooooooof course it does.



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