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Posted: 5/21/2014 3:13:40 AM EST
I'm looking for a small, pistol caliber carbine that won't break the bank. I found the sub2000, and did a bit of investigating. Reviews aren't bad. I love the price tag. Any of you folks have one or have held/fired one and can give me some insight?
Link Posted: 5/21/2014 3:45:16 AM EST
I've had a .40" S&W Glock magazine model for years. The trigger pull is meh. Mine is very picky feeding, though I've not seen other owners complain. I've carried it on commuter trains before folded in a backpack. There's a couple of aftermarket rails, including one that rotates, so you can throw a red dot up front. Also, some folks have done mods w/ clamp on rails, & then cutting holes in the factory handguards to accomodate the rails.

Somewhere there's an X-Ray of a Sub 2000 that had a squib close to the muzzle, and the shooter didn't notice rounds not going down range, & ceased fire when the weapon jammed b/c the bore was full of bullets.

It's a very fun gun to shoot, but the slim butt will bruise your shoulder w/ .40"S&W.
Link Posted: 5/21/2014 7:54:40 AM EST
If you do find one for sale in an actual gun shop, GRAB IT! Kel Tec makes their long guns from pure unobtainuim. That is to say that they make so many of a certain long gun model and call it a day. Their business practices aside, they are pretty good guns for what they cost. Not heavy duty guns like the Sterling, Uzi or PPS but they will take the occasional magazine through them without breaking. I would call them "light duty" at best.
Link Posted: 5/21/2014 8:35:32 AM EST
OP, I hope you're not expecting to find one at the MSRP price point, that well and truly IS unobtanium. That being said, I see them at gun shows quite often, mainly 9mm Glock versions, which I have one as well. Recoil is noisy but soft. Pretty accurate as well. There's a few aftermarket items from Tandemkross I might look at, screw/nut upgrades and sight upgrades.

I haven't seen one below $600 since I got mine the weekend after Sandy Hook for $440.
Link Posted: 5/21/2014 8:54:32 AM EST
I have a 9mm glock mag model and love it. It's a great gun. I have a YouTube review video thread if you wanna watch it.
Link Posted: 5/21/2014 8:55:58 AM EST
I purchased mine a few years ago for $254 out-the-door. It is a good gun for what it is; a compact, lightweight, easy to conceal carbine that could prove very useful as a back-pack gun or a trunk gun. It is NOT; a target rifle, an enjoyable to shoot plinker or indestructible. Honestly, I view it as more of a novelty. It does have specific niche applications for...say...someone who wants to have a concealed weapon close-by but for legal reasons, cannot carry a handgun. Keep an eye on your round count and keep a spare recoil spring assembly handy. Mine started to have failures to eject @~4000 rounds. I replaced the recoil spring and it returned the gun to normal operating status.

Link Posted: 5/21/2014 10:13:17 AM EST
Love my Sub 2000, mine eats anything I put through it, brass or steel. The only real complaints I have about it are the sights, I'd suggest replacing them with the TandemKross sights, and the cheek weld is kind of weird. Mounting optics on it is not simple, there's lots of mods for attaching red dots or you could pony up the money for the Red Lion forend. If you can buy one for under $400 I'd say go for it, I paid $325 and $375 for the two I got about a year ago. If you want a lot more information check out the KTOG forum.
Link Posted: 5/21/2014 6:56:16 PM EST
I love mine, had it for two years. Added the Tacticool Upgrades and it runs great. Never had a problem, love the factory Glock Magazines. I've kept my basic except the Kel Tec sling and added Sub Picatinny Rail in order to add a flashlight. I know lots of people have really gone far in adding accessories but I like it more as a basic model. I bought a Just Right Carbine in order to add a light, red dot scope, vertical foregrip (i.e. accessorize the gun) for my more "tactical" 9mm carbine.
Link Posted: 5/21/2014 9:38:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/22/2014 2:04:25 AM EST by DocNugent]
Probably in the same price range is the TNW ASR - a take-down (no tools required) rather than a folder. I looked at both before choosing the TNW.

Like the Sub2000, it uses Glock mags.

Unlike the Sub2000, you can leave an optic on the top rail when you pack it up for transport.

The only reported problems were with the 45 cal version, and TNW fixed that with a dedicated lower for that version (9mm and 40 cal still share a lower, but nobody had problems with those).
Link Posted: 5/22/2014 10:35:41 PM EST
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Originally Posted By DocNugent:
Probably in the same price range is the TNW ASR - a take-down (no tools required) rather than a folder. I looked at both before choosing the TNW.

Like the Sub2000, it uses Glock mags.

Unlike the Sub2000, you can leave an optic on the top rail when you pack it up for transport.

The only reported problems were with the 45 cal version, and TNW fixed that with a dedicated lower for that version (9mm and 40 cal still share a lower, but nobody had problems with those).
View Quote


I have the TNW, the Just Right, and a Sub....along with some other 9mm PCC's. I have posted some write-ups comparing them here in the past.

The Sub is sort of a niche firearm. I appreciate mine for what it is and do not have unreal expectations for it. I don't see it as a range gun to burn up lots of ammo with. While some have shot thousands of rounds in theirs I will never reach that point. For loads of shooting fun I prefer my Just Right Carbine. Durable, very accurate, and 100% reliable. It uses AR FCG;s and furniture and is one smooth shooting PCC. Also, it takes any standard optic you want to use. My TNW is a nice take down rifle that falls in price somewhere between the JRC and the KT Sub2k. I won't try to compare them as they actually are two different approaches to a similar need. The Kel-Tec is the lighter of the two but the TNW is built better and comes with a rail and is ready to go for an optic.

My Sub is a real Sub, the original Sub9, not the Sub2000. Once I found an orginal Sub9 I sold both of my Sub2k's.

If you want the lightest PCC at an affordable price and being able to fold it up and put it in the average brief case or computer bag a Sub2k will fill the bill. If you want a sturdy PCC that you can shoot all day in comfort there are probably better choices for just a few more dollars and that are easier to find. The Sub is King at what it does best but there are a lot of better choices if you are looking for burning large amounts of ammo in.your PCC.
Link Posted: 5/22/2014 11:03:59 PM EST
I have a Glock 17 pattern Sub2K. It's been a love-hate relationship for the last two years, but luckily it's on the upswing now. I also have a Colt Factory 9mm AR, and a DDLES Glock 9mm.

At first the Sub2K ran great straight out of the box. After about 500 rounds over 3 or 4 range trips the rifle started having FTEs and FTFs. I sent it back to KelTec. After a couple months they sent it back after not doing much to it. The problems continued and it sat in the back of my safe a while. Last summer I brought it back out and was determined to get it running. I then sent it back to KelTec where it was returned to me 5 weeks later still with not much improvement. I went on the KelTecOwnersGroup Forum and found many other people who have had similar problems. I decided to wet-sand the bolt to a near-mirror polish, and also to shoot strictly 147gr ammo for the next 500-700 rounds. The combination of those two did the trick. I haven't had another FTE or FTF while shooting 147gr Speer Lawman.

I decided that the rifle is finally becoming reliable, so I plan on putting it into service for the reason I originally bought it: a sneaky car gun in my small subcompact commuting car. I also took some ideas from others and came up with my own take for an awesome red dot mount that allows the weapon to still be folded in half. I wrote a tutorial here on ARFCOM that can be found HERE
Link Posted: 5/23/2014 10:15:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/23/2014 10:38:12 PM EST by rekles75]
I have the Sub 2k in Glock 22 and Glock 17 versions, I love mines. I have had no problems at all out of mines. EDIT: The front sight screw did come off of my 40 cal version, pick up another at Lowes. I have added the Keltec Picatinny Rail, Keltec Butt stock Extension, the Bolt Tube Cover and rubber charging handle cover from Tacticool Products. I may replace the front sights with the ones over at Tandemkross.

LET THE HATE BEGIN!!! ...... I also have the Hi Point 995 TS Carbine and it is also a great PCC. Great price, Accurate and one of the best warranties around! UGLY as they come though!

Or SBR a Glock 19 and put it in a Roni Kit ...... It wont be cheap though! (hopefully mines will be approved next week!)
Link Posted: 5/24/2014 8:52:50 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By rekles75:
LET THE HATE BEGIN!!! ...... I also have the Hi Point 995 TS Carbine and it is also a great PCC. Great price, Accurate and one of the best warranties around! UGLY as they come though!

Or SBR a Glock 19 and put it in a Roni Kit ...... It wont be cheap though! (hopefully mines will be approved next week!)
View Quote


No hate here....there are no bad choices when its your money. As well as my other PPC's I have a 995TS. Its got to be the biggest bargain in the firearms market. Stone reliable, shoots straight, and the company will take care of it.

What's not to like about that?
Link Posted: 5/24/2014 10:39:03 PM EST
Love my Sub 2000 .40, Glock version.

Have had it for 3-4 (?) years. Eats everything, including my cast boolits that make it cheaper to shoot than a .22.

Most accurate load I've found for it is the Nosler 135gr. bullet. Cor-Bon loads it if you like factory ammo. It'll shoot that load into groups that touch at 25 yards, and 4-8"" groups at 100 yards, if I do my part. With the stock sights, which admittedly makes that a little hard. The sights are very fast to acquire, but a little coarse.

My cast boolit load is nearly as accurate, but not quite. I'm still working on it....
Link Posted: 5/25/2014 12:57:53 AM EST
After doing some shooting on a couple PCC I bought a sub 2k .40 glock 22. The Hi point's are heavy, bulky and it just didn't feel right in my hands. the price tag is a plus though. The just right's are banned in Maryland so that was out for me. The CX4-Storm felt great in my hands, grouping was tight and had little recoil. The down side was the price. Taurus released its PCC and after a day at the range with it, I liked it a lot. It was on the heavier side but did feel nice.
After searching all the stores near me (about 15) all the dealers said " hard to find, good luck getting one." Broke down and got a used one for $550 on gunbroker about two weeks ago. Went to the range the first chance I got, sent about 100 rounds down range and learned a lot about my new subbie.

The Good:
It is light, its cheap, it takes glock mags and it folds. The locking pin to keep it folded is stronger then I thought it would be. When unfolded the barrel stays seated securely. Its a simply blow back setup. Most owners I talk to have said as long as it is oiled it will shoot all day and with a little tweaking it shoots straight. To field strip is simple as well. Lots of great aftermarket goodies. Did I mention it folds to a compact 16"?

The Bad:
The grip is held together by a couple screws, the front of the grip can be pulled apart. The charging handle is stiff, takes a good muscle to pull back. The safety is notorious for having issues (the safety likes to work its way to engage the safety, so it could be worse). Not the most comfortable cheek weld. Wish it had a bolt hold open feature after the last round has been ejected. Mine has cut outs in the bottom of the grip to fit the glock magazines.

The Ugly:
No padding on the butt stock, didn't feel to much of a kick when at the range. My shoulder said other wise the next day with a bunch of good bruises ( It might be just the .40 S&W or maybe I'm just a big girl).

To sum things up, its a great little carbine. I loved shooting it and want to get back to the range ASAP.
Link Posted: 5/25/2014 9:25:50 AM EST
I have the Beretta 9mm version in chrome. It is a great addition to my 92fs. The rifle has been dead on reliable for me.

I've disassembled my sub2000 to paint it tan. I used the time to remove all the sharp edges. I put in the TK front sight, tacticool check cover and buffer. I did the buffer because i tended to lock the bolt back durning rapid mag changes. I put a IWC qd sling mount into my handguard. My rifle came with a red lion front sight, but sold it off because those products are ugly.

I've always hated the rear sight. Makes it hard to hit steel at 200 yds. Tanderkross just released their rear peep sight. I'm hoping it can be threaded for apertures.
Link Posted: 5/25/2014 10:01:13 PM EST
The .40"s gonna leave bruises, particularly if you're running full house 180grn.
Link Posted: 5/26/2014 8:00:02 AM EST
The CX4 are getting cheaper now and they are great shooters. I was debating on the Kel Tec and the Beretta, and the only advantage I could see was that the Kel Tec could collapse, but I have no real reason for that. I wound up getting the Beretta CX4.
Link Posted: 5/26/2014 9:32:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/8/2014 9:57:42 AM EST by Firecop203]
I had one for a while. Wish I hadn't sold it. It would make a good behind the seat truck gun. My biggest problem was shooting it left handed and getting unburned powder blown back in my face.
Link Posted: 5/26/2014 9:59:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/26/2014 10:00:19 AM EST by virus22x]
i have one, its a .40 cal glock version, great little gun, i love mine, i just wish it was a 9
great for a truck gun,
great for smaller individuals
great for just plinking
the only issue i ever had was when i first got it,the trigger guard latch wouldn't lock the barrel into place, i just sprayed some ballistol in there let it sit and it works fine now
the grip is a little, ehhhhhh, but i put a houge rubber grip on there and it works alot better
all and all if you can find one for a good price, i'd get it
Link Posted: 6/6/2014 11:08:33 AM EST
I made this hand guard for mine. One of my favorite guns, but the stock hand guard leaves MUCH to be desired. Now to figure out where to add rails and pretty it up.



Link Posted: 6/6/2014 12:37:54 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By EastWind: I made this hand guard for mine. One of my favorite guns, but the stock hand guard leaves MUCH to be desired. Now to figure out where to add rails and pretty it up.

<a href="http://s626.photobucket.com/user/EastWind9/media/KTS2KHandGuard_zps84d35c01.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/tt346/EastWind9/KTS2KHandGuard_zps84d35c01.jpg</a>
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HOW did you do that? 3-D print or?
Link Posted: 6/6/2014 3:26:10 PM EST
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Originally Posted By backbencher:


HOW did you do that? 3-D print or?
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Originally Posted By backbencher:
Originally Posted By EastWind: I made this hand guard for mine. One of my favorite guns, but the stock hand guard leaves MUCH to be desired. Now to figure out where to add rails and pretty it up.

<a href="http://s626.photobucket.com/user/EastWind9/media/KTS2KHandGuard_zps84d35c01.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/tt346/EastWind9/KTS2KHandGuard_zps84d35c01.jpg</a>


HOW did you do that? 3-D print or?


I machined it out of a block of ABS. My 3d printer isn't quite big enough.

Like the look?
Link Posted: 6/6/2014 3:26:17 PM EST
I had one (9mm Beretta/Sig/S&W), and sold it. No regrets.

The problem I had with the Sub-2k is that it was just never the gun I wanted, and I futilely kept trying to make it better. I spent stupid amounts of money trying to make it into some sort of do-all tactical rifle, and it's just never going to get there. Ultimately, it's a cheap gun that shoots alright, folds up small, and can take high-cap mags. The ergos are bad, the scope mounting situation sucks, and the trigger is meh at best. It'd be a good competitor to the Hi-Point carbine at $350, but it's real questionable whether it's worth the $500+ I often seem them going for.

Funny thing is, I think the core concept isn't so bad... they just need to update it for modern sensibilities. Make it left-side-fold, pic rail on top for optics, small side rail on the right for lights, metal FCG, thread the barrel, make the front sight fold, and make it side charge. AR-style selector would be nice, but not strictly necessary, cross bolt isn't so horrible.
Link Posted: 6/6/2014 4:26:52 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By EastWind:


I machined it out of a block of ABS. My 3d printer isn't quite big enough.

Like the look?
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Originally Posted By EastWind:
Originally Posted By backbencher:
Originally Posted By EastWind: I made this hand guard for mine. One of my favorite guns, but the stock hand guard leaves MUCH to be desired. Now to figure out where to add rails and pretty it up.

<a href="http://s626.photobucket.com/user/EastWind9/media/KTS2KHandGuard_zps84d35c01.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/tt346/EastWind9/KTS2KHandGuard_zps84d35c01.jpg</a>


HOW did you do that? 3-D print or?


I machined it out of a block of ABS. My 3d printer isn't quite big enough.

Like the look?


Yes. I like different forends. Now throw some rails on it, and some rail covers to cover the rails. Maybe SBR a Glock to mount on the lower rail, and then add a flashlight/green laser combo to that so your spare mag holder can actually shoot.

Originally Posted By erwos:
Funny thing is, I think the core concept isn't so bad... they just need to update it for modern sensibilities. Make it left-side-fold, pic rail on top for optics, small side rail on the right for lights, metal FCG, thread the barrel, make the front sight fold, and make it side charge. AR-style selector would be nice, but not strictly necessary, cross bolt isn't so horrible.


Hmm, and EastWind has a mill and does fun things in ABS - I'm seeing some possibilities here...so a left side-folding Sub 2K w/ an AR FCG & safety, right side charging, and a mirror image version for lefties? Which bbl? AR?
Link Posted: 6/9/2014 12:38:43 PM EST
I have the Glock magazine model, and have carried it for several years under the seat in the back of a pickup truck. I'd like it a lot better if I could get my head down behind the sights, but have some aftermarket sights from Tandemkross on order and am looking forward to seeing if that improves things. The stock sights certainly don't inspire confidence, and some parts seem to be made from the exact same translucent plastic that squirt guns were once molded from.

I doubt I would have the thing except for two factors: 32-round Glock magazines and the fact it folds. As noted above, it is not a fun plinker and mounting accessories is a challenge. Mine has always been dependable, but it is strictly an emergency firearm and not something I even think about owning except once or twice a year I'll take it out and run four of those Glock 18 magazines through it.

Link Posted: 6/18/2014 8:20:17 PM EST
I go through a love hate with mine. It is the second Glock 9mm I have had.

Both have been stone cold reliable, have horrible triggers, rough exterior finish, nasty sights that I have trouble lining up.

I will probably keep it but don't shoot it much because I would rather have a good optic on it. I have almost pulled the trigger on the rotating hand guard several times. I don't know if the pic is still floating around but Gemtech had a pic of a SBRed Sub2k with a can and I thought it was the coolest thing I had seen in a long time.


I do have a 3-lug can coming..............
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 9:36:40 PM EST
I like it for it's lightweight and fold-ability. I had one awhile back that was reliable, even with 115gr. range fodder. I recently bought a new one, but this time I'm adding certain upgrades. The Aztac trigger, Tacticool tube and bolt handle covers, TK fiber optic front sight, a PLR-16 sling adapter at the screws right above the rear of the grip and a Magpul picatinny rail on the left side of the factory hand guard for a light. I want certain upgrades this time, but want to keep it light and foldable. All parts are ordered and I'm still waiting for the Sub2K to show up, but it is a good carbine that can go places a full on rifle like the AR-15 can't. Prices are slowly coming down so don't pay too much for one. I was actually looking for over a year until I found a brand new G17 model for the right price less than a week ago. It should be a shorter wait time to find one at a decent price now.
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 9:51:06 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:

Both have been stone cold reliable, have horrible triggers, rough exterior finish, nasty sights that I have trouble lining up.

I will probably keep it but don't shoot it much because I would rather have a good optic on it.
View Quote


I went the simplistic route in order to mount a red dot sight which was higher then the stock sights, but yet maintains its folding ability and excellent balance.




Link Posted: 6/18/2014 10:12:09 PM EST
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Originally Posted By troy_v:


I went the simplistic route in order to mount a red dot sight which was higher then the stock sights, but yet maintains its folding ability and excellent balance.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lvX3sGDEvgY/UvRZOKnOC6I/AAAAAAAAELI/syg0n17btdY/w866-h577-no/IMG_2333.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-BQiQ_lKHCbA/UvRZMtCYVSI/AAAAAAAAELA/1kVPeH72lHg/w866-h577-no/IMG_2332.JPG
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Originally Posted By troy_v:
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:

Both have been stone cold reliable, have horrible triggers, rough exterior finish, nasty sights that I have trouble lining up.

I will probably keep it but don't shoot it much because I would rather have a good optic on it.


I went the simplistic route in order to mount a red dot sight which was higher then the stock sights, but yet maintains its folding ability and excellent balance.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lvX3sGDEvgY/UvRZOKnOC6I/AAAAAAAAELI/syg0n17btdY/w866-h577-no/IMG_2333.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-BQiQ_lKHCbA/UvRZMtCYVSI/AAAAAAAAELA/1kVPeH72lHg/w866-h577-no/IMG_2332.JPG


If you are the one that had a build thread on here I saw it. That is pretty nifty for sure and I dont mind the cant.
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 10:17:19 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:

If you are the one that had a build thread on here I saw it. That is pretty nifty for sure and I dont mind the cant.
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Yeah, I posted the 'how-to' thread on this mod. I actually find the cant to be more comfortable.
Link Posted: 6/18/2014 10:25:06 PM EST
Found the pic. Tell me that's not awesome


From this thread in 2010

Another Arfcommer, apparently great minds think alike. This is the gun that makes me want the red lion forend and regret not buying a few of those H1's they blew out.


2011 Arf thread
Link Posted: 6/19/2014 9:09:49 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/19/2014 9:10:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/19/2014 9:11:09 AM EST by HardShell]
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