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Page Armory » M-16
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11/20/2019 5:07:11 PM
Posted: 10/25/2006 12:18:28 PM EST
Scott Bell sells a select fire kit for use with a RLL that allows Safe-Semi-Auto (instead of just Safe-Auto). My question is if I remove the RLL will the modified M16A2 trigger group (modified disconnects, trigger and hammer) allow full auto fire? If it doesn't, then shouldn't it be OK to leave in my lower if the RLL isn't there according to this letter here?

FYI, I have a RLL in transfer so this isn't a question on how to illegally make an AR fire in full auto. All I want to do is have two kits installed in two lowers so one can be setup for 9mm and the other setup for .223/6.8SPC.


Link Posted: 10/25/2006 6:20:38 PM EST
Good question - I am in same boat and would like an answer here.
FH
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 2:26:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2006 2:29:07 PM EST by belchfire]
Hey bros Worrall in the same boat I’ve got a RLL in transfer and have been wondering the same thing. The main reason I went with the RLL was that you can drop it in a title 1 rifle and not need to mess with the FCG; a DIAS you need the m-16 fcg installed to go from one gun to the other you would need to remove the fcg. I plan on having a 223 complete ready to run and a 7.62x39 and a 9mm and whatever else I can get to run with a link. I believe this can be accomplished with the guns set-up properly to start with, I may be all wrong but we shall see. Yes I can’t run a .22 upper but that’s no big deal for me if I can ever get my mac 10 22 upper to run that will be good enough. So for me the RLL was the best deal for the money but that’s just for me other people have other needs; heck the bottom line is spend your money on what’s right for you.

I’ve looked into the selector question a little and what I’m finding is that the ATF has made a ruling that an AR15 with m-16 FCG installed (I’m taking that this would be carrier and hammer) can fire more than 1 round per. Trigger pull without the DIAS or sear installed. Now if this is fact that they have made that ruling; it shouldn’t be too hard to find, then it’s a done deal I would not try it, it’s not worth the legal troubles. Now on the other hand if it has an AR 15 carrier and hammer it may be a possibility check out this site. http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/lightninglink.html Basically for me it’s not a problem I can’t remember the last time I used semi on my mac and if I need semi I’ll take out the link. It is interesting and would be a plus.

But I’m looking for information from people with experience and when I get the link and start messing with it I’m sure I’ll learn a lot more
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 3:44:06 PM EST
I know it’s a lot of reading but check this out. I can’t find a ruling that said ATF tested and found it will fire more than 1 round, but if it did your in trouble. Hell send in a gun let them test it lol , you’ll probably get back a blown up gun with the answer yes it fired 2 ½ times.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter35.txt
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 3:17:00 AM EST
The RLL select fire kit will not cause the rifle to fire in full auto without the RLL in place. Since a semiauto hammer and a semiauto carrier are used with the RLL and the kit, slam fire will never occur.

The RLL select fire kit is just a dual disconnector and trigger system derived from the three-shot burst FCG. The selector lever on the kit engages either the "regular" disconnector (full auto) that is tripped by the RLL, or the "modified" disconnector, which has the trip surface ground off and therefore prevents tripping by the RLL (semi). Without the RLL there is no way to trip either disconnector. And without the M16 carrier or M16 hammer there is no possibility of slam fire.

You have no legal issues with the Bell kits in your rifles.

Link Posted: 10/27/2006 4:02:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By MADM16A1:
The RLL select fire kit will not cause the rifle to fire in full auto without the RLL in place. Since a semiauto hammer and a semiauto carrier are used with the RLL and the kit, slam fire will never occur.

The RLL select fire kit is just a dual disconnector and trigger system derived from the three-shot burst FCG. The selector lever on the kit engages either the "regular" disconnector (full auto) that is tripped by the RLL, or the "modified" disconnector, which has the trip surface ground off and therefore prevents tripping by the RLL (semi). Without the RLL there is no way to trip either disconnector. And without the M16 carrier or M16 hammer there is no possibility of slam fire.

You have no legal issues with the Bell kits in your rifles.



That is excellent information MADM16A1. What if I have a full auto carrier cut down to SP1 specs so it will work with the RLL? I am assuming that once the back material is removed to create a SP1 like carrier it is no longer considered a full auto carrier, correct?


Link Posted: 10/27/2006 5:09:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2006 5:09:49 AM EST by MADM16A1]
Your assumption is correct, the trimmed M16 carrier is not a problem and will work great with the RLL. As long as the disconnectors are in good shape there is nothing that can make the rifle fire full auto without the RLL being in place.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 4:08:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By MADM16A1:
The RLL select fire kit will not cause the rifle to fire in full auto without the RLL in place. Since a semiauto hammer and a semiauto carrier are used with the RLL and the kit, slam fire will never occur. And without the M16 carrier or M16 hammer there is no possibility of slam fire.

You have no legal issues with the Bell kits in your rifles.


Can you please explain how the AR15 carrier and hammer are designed to stop a slam fire? If possible can you direct me to information that may have a description? I went to my dealer and looked at the select fire kit I got with my link but I don’t have my gun (sent out getting set up for the RLL) to compare.

Thanks for the interesting information
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 5:28:45 PM EST
Some but not all AR15 bolt carriers have an exposed firing pin hood, this in conjunction with the notched semi auto hammer causes the gun to jam if the hammer tried to follow the bolt carrier forward.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 6:23:55 PM EST
Not too many carriers are made today without the firing pin hood.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 6:33:14 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 5:22:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By cowboy7242001:
Do the kits work well?


Don't know yet, however, from all the reports I have read, they work as advertised. I should know if a few months when I FINALLY get my RLL.
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 5:28:03 AM EST
That is a good question, I own a RLL and just got a select fire kit for it from a friend. However it is not 100% reliable in semi, when I took it to the range I had irratic semi / FA action depending on how I pulled the trigger. Since I got the RLL everything has had some tuning involved (uppers, bolt carriers, KNS protector, etc...) so why should'nt this be any different. Has anyone experienced the same issues that I am? Any insight would be most appreciated.
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 10:22:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By theonecsf:
That is a good question, I own a RLL and just got a select fire kit for it from a friend. However it is not 100% reliable in semi, when I took it to the range I had irratic semi / FA action depending on how I pulled the trigger. Since I got the RLL everything has had some tuning involved (uppers, bolt carriers, KNS protector, etc...) so why should'nt this be any different. Has anyone experienced the same issues that I am? Any insight would be most appreciated.


Take the disconnector that engages in "semi" mode and grind the trip surface with a dremel until it is no longer tripped by the link.
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 10:34:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By belchfire:

Originally Posted By MADM16A1:
The RLL select fire kit will not cause the rifle to fire in full auto without the RLL in place. Since a semiauto hammer and a semiauto carrier are used with the RLL and the kit, slam fire will never occur. And without the M16 carrier or M16 hammer there is no possibility of slam fire.

You have no legal issues with the Bell kits in your rifles.


Can you please explain how the AR15 carrier and hammer are designed to stop a slam fire? If possible can you direct me to information that may have a description? I went to my dealer and looked at the select fire kit I got with my link but I don’t have my gun (sent out getting set up for the RLL) to compare.

Thanks for the interesting information
img224.imageshack.us/img224/8206/uzi0vv.gif


You really can't rely on the carrier and hammer stopping a slam fire unless they are stock semi parts, where the notch on the semi hammer catches the firing pin ring through the machined slot in the carrier. The best thing is to avoid slam fire altogether by making sure you have a properly working disconnector on your semi rifle or host rifle equipped with the select fire kit. If the disconnectors are in working order, there is no way for a rifle to go into slam fire unless you install a regular unmodified set of M16 FCG parts and carrier, but that would be breaking the law, as you would be purposely attempting to make a slam-fire machinegun. Such a setup could be construed as conspiracy to manufacture a MG by the ATF.

Link Posted: 10/31/2006 2:15:38 PM EST
Not trying to be a dunce but is the trip surface the area below the hammer hook? And is the how can I tell which one is the Semi disconnector? Thanks in advance.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 5:07:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By theonecsf:
Not trying to be a dunce but is the trip surface the area below the hammer hook?


That is correct.


And is the how can I tell which one is the Semi disconnector?


The semi disconnector is the one with some material already removed from the area under the hook, the full auto disconnector is pretty much stock.
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