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Posted: 7/22/2013 5:03:37 PM EST
know headspace and OAL issues have been covered before, but I am either missing something crucial or am just a plain idiot.   I have been having a problem with FTE, so from the wealth of info on this forum I have assumed I have headspace issues.   So I  have a bought a Wilson headspace gauge.    Most of my cases measure within specs on my caliper and the Wilson gage, a few are long.  So on the long cases I am set up my Redding full length sizeing die as instructed, touching the shell holder plus 1/4 to 1/3 turn.   I am trying to bump the shoulder back .002-.003, right?   Howver when I measure the case again it is about .003 longer!  Is this correct?  Should I just trim to 1.755.-1.76 at that point and be done?   I have tried screwing the die in and out a bit, same results.  I am using Lee sizing lube and One shot.   One other thing, When sizeing the case feeds smothly until the last 1/8 inch or so, for that last bit I have pult more presure into it, I dont feel like I am forcing anything.  Any Ideas?

Thanks guys!
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 5:39:16 PM EST
[#1]
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 6:28:13 PM EST
[#2]
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Quoted:
Die instructions are where you start. It doesn't end there. Using your case gauge you adjust your sizing die for proper headspace.

After sizing, the case head should be below the end of the gauge, but above the cut.

Adjust die (in your case down in small amounts) until the case head falls between the 2 reference points of your case gauge. End of gauge/ the cut.

Case length (measured with caliper) has nothing to do with headspace. Get headspace correct first.

Once sizing die is set, size your cases. Then trim to 1.750 (the trim to length) for proper case OAL.
View Quote


Thanks Dryflash, let me add one bit of info.  Even when I screw down the FL sizeing die more than instructed, the headspace becomes further out of spec, longer( according to the Wilson Gauge).  So a case with the neck at the top of gauge before sizeing will end up noticablly above the gauge high point after sizeing.   Shouldn't the headspace show as shorter after sizeing?
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 7:37:39 PM EST
[#3]
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 2:40:41 AM EST
[#4]
You are confusing headspace with case length.

Do as Dryflash says to set headspace. Get the primer end to fall between the end of the gauge and the cut.
The other end (case mouth/neck) doesn't matter yet.

After you get the headspace right, you can trim the case to length.
After sizing the case gets longer. That's what you are seeing with the case mouth sticking out farther at the other end of the gauge than before it was sized.

Get the headspace set then worry about how long the case is. Size then trim.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 2:53:08 AM EST
[#5]
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Quoted:


Thanks Dryflash, let me add one bit of info.  Even when I screw down the FL sizeing die more than instructed, the headspace becomes further out of spec, longer( according to the Wilson Gauge).  So a case with the neck at the top of gauge before sizeing will end up noticablly above the gauge high point after sizeing.   Shouldn't the headspace show as shorter after sizeing?
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Die instructions are where you start. It doesn't end there. Using your case gauge you adjust your sizing die for proper headspace.

After sizing, the case head should be below the end of the gauge, but above the cut.

Adjust die (in your case down in small amounts) until the case head falls between the 2 reference points of your case gauge. End of gauge/ the cut.

Case length (measured with caliper) has nothing to do with headspace. Get headspace correct first.

Once sizing die is set, size your cases. Then trim to 1.750 (the trim to length) for proper case OAL.


Thanks Dryflash, let me add one bit of info.  Even when I screw down the FL sizeing die more than instructed, the headspace becomes further out of spec, longer( according to the Wilson Gauge).  So a case with the neck at the top of gauge before sizeing will end up noticablly above the gauge high point after sizeing.   Shouldn't the headspace show as shorter after sizeing?


You are confusing me.  Are you sizing the case and then looking at the neck end of the case?  Why?  Size the case and pay attention to how the "HEAD" of the case sits into the gauge.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 4:55:43 AM EST
[#6]
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Quoted:
If you screw sizing die down too much, the top of the case will be below the cut.

This would be shorter than optimum headspace.

If you are looking at the neck while brass is in the case gauge, you are looking at the wrong end of the gauge.

Look at the end with the primer pocket.
View Quote


See, I told you I am an idiot.  I knew I was missing something obvious.  Thanks to all, really appreciate the help.  Don't tell my girlfriend ok? She thinks I'm smart.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 5:31:15 AM EST
[#7]
Quoted:
know headspace and OAL issues have been covered before, but I am either missing something crucial or am just a plain idiot.   I have been having a problem with FTE, so from the wealth of info on this forum I have assumed I have headspace issues.   So I  have a bought a Wilson headspace gauge.    Most of my cases measure within specs on my caliper and the Wilson gage, a few are long.  So on the long cases I am set up my Redding full length sizeing die as instructed, touching the shell holder plus 1/4 to 1/3 turn.   I am trying to bump the shoulder back .002-.003, right?   Howver when I measure the case again it is about .003 longer!  Is this correct?  Should I just trim to 1.755.-1.76 at that point and be done?   I have tried screwing the die in and out a bit, same results.  I am using Lee sizing lube and One shot.   One other thing, When sizeing the case feeds smothly until the last 1/8 inch or so, for that last bit I have pult more presure into it, I dont feel like I am forcing anything.  Any Ideas?

Thanks guys!
View Quote



oops, posted before reading all the way through again.  what's longer the whole case or the shoulder location?  apples and apple cobbler.

yep, set up your die for the shoulder location, worry about the neck trimming after,
clean, lube, size, trim, chamfer/debur, clean in that order for best results.

It is normal for the case to grow in length when sizing.  that neck area is the only outlet for all the squeezing going on.  The shoulder will also move forward/get longer if you're not hitting it against the die's shoulder.   Not that you're doing it with your die caming over like your set up but partial sizing with a full length die can often do that.


Eta a dial caliper with a tool for reading off the shoulder is considered essential for die set up by many.  Lots of guys use those drop in gages but they don't mean shit to me. i want to know how it relates to my chamber not some $25 irrelevant gadget.  Your chamber and that fake chamber gadget aren't necessarily the same.  I'll garner howls of protests on that one though.

ETA 2- You can have vaired results bassed on the brass lots themselves.  The brass gets hardened the more you use it and you get "spring back" when you hit the shoulder with the die it can spring back up on you due to the brass hardness.  That's why some anneal brass.  I see it more with USGI .30-06 than 5.56
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 11:51:14 AM EST
[#8]
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 3:11:15 PM EST
[#9]
OK all good info but what does it have to do with the OP's problem? He said he is having problems with ""FTE"" Isn't FTE ( Failure to Eject ) ??

Failure to eject is not caused by head space problems.

Link Posted: 7/23/2013 3:28:54 PM EST
[#10]

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Quoted:


OK all good info but what does it have to do with the OP's problem? He said he is having problems with ""FTE"" Isn't FTE ( Failure to Eject ) ??



Failure to eject is not caused by head space problems.



View Quote




 
Baby steps. Next chapter we learn cartridge, type of rifle, and get a decent description of the actual problem. I have no doubt it will still be a reloading issue.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 3:42:32 PM EST
[#11]
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Quoted:

  Baby steps. Next chapter we learn cartridge, type of rifle, and get a decent description of the actual problem. I have no doubt it will still be a reloading issue.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
OK all good info but what does it have to do with the OP's problem? He said he is having problems with ""FTE"" Isn't FTE ( Failure to Eject ) ??

Failure to eject is not caused by head space problems.


  Baby steps. Next chapter we learn cartridge, type of rifle, and get a decent description of the actual problem. I have no doubt it will still be a reloading issue.


Maybe. But if you read the OP carefully and maybe between the lines a little, I am betting it is .223/5.56 caliber and the rifle is an AR-15. I stand by my post.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 3:49:59 PM EST
[#12]
An easy way to help with trimming. Lock your calipers at 1.76". If the case doesnt fit, then it needs trimmed. Easier then doing an actual measurement each time.
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 5:18:04 PM EST
[#13]
Ok, so now that I am using the gauge correctly I wa able to set the Full length sizeing die to bring the headspace within specs, according to the Wilson gauge.   Really appreciate everyone's help with that!  

So asssuming that I am and have been trimming my cases to 1.755 to 1.760 and keeping my OAL to 2.26 ( I have been) is there any othe reloading issue that could be causing a FTE.  I recall reading here that headspace would cause FTE,, is that corrrect?     Yes, it is an AR15, Bushmaster.  I know, far from the best but it was all I could find and I am glad to have it, as I cannot buy another in NY.    I did atempt to polish the chamber with a bronze brush in a drill, ran it about 15 min.   The chamber is clean.   What is the next thing to look at?
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 5:31:10 PM EST
[#14]
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 5:35:15 PM EST
[#15]
What is your barrel length, gas system length, and your load data?
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 5:57:50 PM EST
[#16]
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Quoted:
What is your barrel length, gas system length, and your load data?
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Horandy 55gr FMJ w/c  23.6 gr of IMR8208 XBR   Followed the OAL specs in the Horandy book, I think it  is 2.20 but I dont have the book at hand.   I am trying not to improvise, following instructions.  

The barrel is 16 in
Link Posted: 7/23/2013 6:07:25 PM EST
[#17]
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Quoted:
If your headspace is long it can cause a  FTE.

I load to 2.25 as my max OAL for any bullet in an AR.

I like to have a little wiggle room in the mag for no hang ups.

Short bullets like 55 grs and lighter get a shorter OAL.

I like to have at least one bullet diameter (.224) of the bullet seated into the neck.

Helps to ensure proper neck tension.


View Quote


Ok, that's what I understood about headspace.  Most of the bullets have canulere, seating so most of the grove is in the neck so I assume that is correct, right?   I am also using a Lee factory crimp die.  Light crimp, not going crazy on it.  

Link Posted: 7/23/2013 6:09:43 PM EST
[#18]
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Quoted:
An easy way to help with trimming. Lock your calipers at 1.76". If the case doesnt fit, then it needs trimmed. Easier then doing an actual measurement each time.
View Quote



Or for 10$ buy metal case guage that works with 50+ brass cases... Dunno, but it seems cheaper than dedicating a set of calipers
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 4:29:19 AM EST
[#19]
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Quoted:
An easy way to help with trimming. Lock your calipers at 1.76". If the case doesnt fit, then it needs trimmed. Easier then doing an actual measurement each time.
View Quote


I shouldn't have a problem with OAL, I just picked up that Little Crow World Finest Trimmer, I set that up last night to trim to 1.755.  I think it would be faster to run all the cases thru the trimmer rather than measure each one, sound right?

To all, really appreciate the good advise!
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 4:31:35 AM EST
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
An easy way to help with trimming. Lock your calipers at 1.76". If the case doesnt fit, then it needs trimmed. Easier then doing an actual measurement each time.
View Quote


I shouldn't have a problem with OAL, I just picked up that Little Crow World Finest Trimmer, I set that up last night to trim to 1.755.  I think it would be faster to run all the cases thru the trimmer rather than measure each one, sound right?

To all, really appreciate the good advise!
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 5:06:06 AM EST
[#21]
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Quoted:



Or for 10$ buy metal case guage that works with 50+ brass cases... Dunno, but it seems cheaper than dedicating a set of calipers
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
An easy way to help with trimming. Lock your calipers at 1.76". If the case doesnt fit, then it needs trimmed. Easier then doing an actual measurement each time.



Or for 10$ buy metal case guage that works with 50+ brass cases... Dunno, but it seems cheaper than dedicating a set of calipers


Dedicating a set of calipers?  The lock is a simple thumbscrew, you tighten it on a setting, when you're done you loosen it so the works travel freely again.  Literally a 2 second operation to lock and unlock.

OP, yes, that's what most guys who aren't hand cranking a manual lathe trimmer do, they just process them all.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 10:08:07 AM EST
[#22]
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 11:34:44 AM EST
[#23]
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Quoted:

Yes, seat to mid cannelure.

Light crimp is good. Get comfortable with that.

Then you can move on to bullets without a cannelure and not crimp.

If your neck tension is good, no crimp is needed.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If your headspace is long it can cause a FTE.

I load to 2.25 as my max OAL for any bullet in an AR.

I like to have a little wiggle room in the mag for no hang ups.

Short bullets like 55 grs and lighter get a shorter OAL.

I like to have at least one bullet diameter (.224) of the bullet seated into the neck.

Helps to ensure proper neck tension.




Ok, that's what I understood about headspace. Most of the bullets have canulere, seating so most of the grove is in the neck so I assume that is correct, right? I am also using a Lee factory crimp die. Light crimp, not going crazy on it.


Yes, seat to mid cannelure.

Light crimp is good. Get comfortable with that.

Then you can move on to bullets without a cannelure and not crimp.

If your neck tension is good, no crimp is needed.



Thanks Dryflash and everyone, all great advice.   Now I just need some time to get to the range and see if these changes work.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 1:12:20 PM EST
[#24]
Have you dissembled and cleaned your bolt and all of it's parts. Is your extractor in good condition and is it moving freely on its pin. Does your extractor have an "O" as well as a spring. If it does is the "O" ring in good condition?

How severe is this failure to eject? Does the bolt open and leave the case in the chamber or does the bolt not open far enough or not at all?

It sounds like your loading procedure is OK. I did not look up your load but if its way under powered I'm sure somebody would have pointed it out already.

If you still have FTE please describe in detail what exactly is happening.

Link Posted: 7/25/2013 5:23:19 PM EST
[#25]
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Quoted:
Have you dissembled and cleaned your bolt and all of it's parts. Is your extractor in good condition and is it moving freely on its pin. Does your extractor have an "O" as well as a spring. If it does is the "O" ring in good condition?

How severe is this failure to eject? Does the bolt open and leave the case in the chamber or does the bolt not open far enough or not at all?

It sounds like your loading procedure is OK. I did not look up your load but if its way under powered I'm sure somebody would have pointed it out already.

If you still have FTE please describe in detail what exactly is happening.

View Quote


Oh yes, I have been disasembleing the BCG and cleaning after the range, I spend near an hour cleaing the rifle each time.  I have read almost everything  on the site about maintenance  and cleaning, watched videos, everything.  ( lurk and learn!) The extractor is ok, moves like it should and the spring and O ring are in good shape.  

When it won't eject the bolt stays on the case and does not open.  I usually have to slam the butt on a bench while holding the chargeing handle ( mortoring?).  I get a stuck fired case perhaps every 20-40 rounds.    One time I needed a gunsmith to get the unfired case out, the case was stuck and the bolt would not go to battery.  I am assuming that one unfired FTE was a fluke, just a case really out of spec, that was only once out of 300-400 rounds.   Its the FTE on the fired cases that I am worried about.    What do you think?
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