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Posted: 6/11/2009 6:45:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/11/2009 6:46:51 PM EST by COSteve]
I called not to complain about availability, but rather to discuss the technical differences between their primer types. I was put in touch with one of their tech reps who was very happy to discuss their primers. BTW, She mentioned that she had worked there 38 yrs and never seen anything even close to this kind of demand.

Then she said that they can produce 3 million primer per day flat out (which they are currently running) but have currently over 1 Billion back ordered. Unfortunately, that means that if all new orders stopped completely today. Everything; ammo, gov't, and component, it would take almost a year running flat out to catch up.

Anyway, I was asking about the cup thickness, formula differences, and formula amount differences between their #500 (SP), #550 (SPM), and #400 (SR). She had me hold a minute to get the detail specs up on her screen and this is what she said.

Cup thickness: The #500 has a thinner cup than either the #550 or #400 which both have the same cup dimensions (including thickness).

Flash powder formula: All three sizes use the same formula for the flash powder.

Flash powder amount: The #500 has a slightly smaller amount (3 micrograms) than the #550 or #400 which both have the same amount.

I asked if the SR primers could be used as an acceptable substitute for the SPM primers. She compared the #550 and #400 and then replied that yes, they appeared to have the same specs, same dimensions, same cup thickness, same formula, and same amount. She even noted that the SPM primers were slightly taller than the SP primers and were spec'd the same dimensions as the #400.

I asked if she knew any reason not to just use SR primers for both magnum pistol and rifle applications based upon that information and she said that many there only bought rifle primers and used them for all their reloading, magnum or not. The only exception being for custom pistols where the thicker rifle cup contributed to misfires, which she said only occurred in custom race pistols.
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 7:03:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By COSteve:
.............

Then she said that they can produce 3 million primer per day flat out (which they are currently running) but have currently over 1 Billion back ordered. Unfortunately, that means that if all new orders stopped completely today. Everything; ammo, gov't, and component, it would take almost a year running flat out to catch up.

......................



Wow!!
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 7:57:08 PM EST
Good to know, thanks for posting.
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 8:13:15 PM EST
Great info - thanks for posting.

..............
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 8:48:58 PM EST
Thank you sir! That info is REALLY nice to know!
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 9:32:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/11/2009 9:42:38 PM EST by ThePontificator]
Three million primers divided by five thousand (a case) is 600 cases of primers per day.

that's 18K cases a month

I believe her saying that they're backordered by a billion but I'm having a bit of trouble believing their production is that low for a day.

Is it possible that she said that one assembly line or machine can manufacture 3 millon per day? Certainly they have more than one primer mfr. assembly line. They sure as hell have more than one 'primer making machine'!

CCI needs to hire more Oompa Loompas
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 9:44:48 PM EST
"select"...right click...save as...
Thanks COsteve!
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 9:50:58 PM EST
To add to this post. Not disputing what was said steve at all.

I talked to my ATK oem guy about 6 weeks ago, and had an interesting coversation myself. I was told 4 million a day. One plant. Don't know how many machines. We discussed the process of making primers, which was interesting. I was told they have not have a positive stock of primers in over 2 years. They are building a new primer plant, but it is still 14 months out. We also talked about availability. This part might light a fire under your ass. He told me that he tells the his bosses about the customers complaints about shortages all the time. He gets a comission of sorts on sales. He gets told by his bosses that "We are an ammunition company, and not a component company." I had the same question that you are thinking. WTF? He tells me that the componets are overruns of production stock. I am not sure I beleive this.

You can draw your own conclusions.
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 9:58:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By ThePontificator:
Three million primers divided by five thousand (a case) is 600 cases of primers per day.

that's 18K cases a month

I believe her saying that they're backordered by a billion but I'm having a bit of trouble believing their production is that low for a day.

Is it possible that she said that one assembly line or machine can manufacture 3 millon per day? Certainly they have more than one primer mfr. assembly line. They sure as hell have more than one 'primer making machine'!

CCI needs to hire more Oompa Loompas


It wasn't posted what she meant by 3 million a day, whether or not that was only 3 million in total or three million in specific production to be boxed and sold as only reloading component primers. They produce primers for various factory ammo as well, so who knows exactly what that amount was. Its possible that while it may be 3 million a day a good portion of that goes off to companies for ammo, so the remaining amount for us reloaders to go after is much less. Who knows. I'm glad I have a stock saved up.

Link Posted: 6/11/2009 10:04:11 PM EST
1 BEEEEEEEEEELLION primer backorder..!

Holy. Mother. Of. God.

Luckily, my supply of components vastly exceeds the free time available to reload them.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 2:41:15 AM EST
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
... He gets told by his bosses that "We are an ammunition company, and not a component company." ...

I suspect the bottom line is that if they start diverting their primer production to reloaders to satisfy the increased demand, then they have ammunition making machines and supplies (bullets, etc.) sitting around unused for want of primers.

They are a money making business and quite naturally are looking to make the most that they can.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 6:50:29 AM EST
If people are currently getting their backorders than the primers are being distributed somehow.

I think all of these "numbers" that people throw out are just fueling the fire.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 6:54:36 AM EST
I bet you part of the 1 billion back order is stores/web sites that we will most undoubtedly buy primers from. This said, I think we'll see a bigger abundance of them sooner. I don't think it will take a year for things to get significantly better. The better part of one? Yes.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 8:23:30 AM EST
Wait a minute, did I miss it, someone else pointing it out, but from what the OP was told, I concluded that SPM could also be used as a substitute for SR. ?????????
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 8:37:39 AM EST
Originally Posted By copper_head:
Wait a minute, did I miss it, someone else pointing it out, but from what the OP was told, I concluded that SPM could also be used as a substitute for SR. ?????????


I believe that's a big 10-4!!! Sweet! Finally I have a reason to buy SMP primers!!!
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 9:19:05 AM EST
I've been loading WOLF SRM primers for 9mm, and they give me about a 1-2% misfire rate in my bone stock G17.

I stopped using them since I have Remington and Win Small rifle primers that I could use instead.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 9:32:13 AM EST
Very interesting, thanks for this info!
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 9:41:06 AM EST
Since the wolf SMR primers are thicker than the regular rifle ones, I would think your misfire rate in a pistol would be normal. In the case of the CCI SMP primers being the same thickness as the SR primers, I would think you could use a SR primer in the place of a SMP if you needed to, or vice versa.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 11:23:02 AM EST
If you are trying to get more mis-fires, just try the CCI brand. Hard as rock and LOTS of duds. Harder still are CCI's "mil-spec" - they are nearly impossible to set off.

Federal is the best, followed by Wolf.

Originally Posted By markm:
I've been loading WOLF SRM primers for 9mm, and they give me about a 1-2% misfire rate in my bone stock G17.

I stopped using them since I have Remington and Win Small rifle primers that I could use instead.


Link Posted: 6/12/2009 12:22:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By CBR900:
If you are trying to get more mis-fires, just try the CCI brand. Hard as rock and LOTS of duds. Harder still are CCI's "mil-spec" - they are nearly impossible to set off.



WOW! My guns must be supernatural then, because a 100% success rate using something that's "nearly impossible" must mean my rifles are blessed.

Question about SRM primers, do we KNOW that the cup is thicker ... or is their difference in explosive weight?
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 12:36:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By TurboFC3S:
Originally Posted By CBR900:
If you are trying to get more mis-fires, just try the CCI brand. Hard as rock and LOTS of duds. Harder still are CCI's "mil-spec" - they are nearly impossible to set off.



WOW! My guns must be supernatural then, because a 100% success rate using something that's "nearly impossible" must mean my rifles are blessed.

Question about SRM primers, do we KNOW that the cup is thicker ... or is their difference in explosive weight?


In the original post, the author said the tech on the phone said the cup is the same thickness in the SMP and SR primers.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 12:51:02 PM EST
Thanks for the info on the CCI#41 misfires. I was about to lay down $500 + Hazmat + ship for a 5000 crate of CCI 41's on Gunbroker. Whoa! ! !
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 2:03:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 4:24:09 PM EST by TurboFC3S]
Originally Posted By Birkleberry:
Originally Posted By TurboFC3S:
Originally Posted By CBR900:
If you are trying to get more mis-fires, just try the CCI brand. Hard as rock and LOTS of duds. Harder still are CCI's "mil-spec" - they are nearly impossible to set off.



WOW! My guns must be supernatural then, because a 100% success rate using something that's "nearly impossible" must mean my rifles are blessed.

Question about SRM primers, do we KNOW that the cup is thicker ... or is their difference in explosive weight?


In the original post, the author said the tech on the phone said the cup is the same thickness in the SMP and SR primers.


I see that, I am asking about SRM primers ... not SR. SR are thicker cup than SP, but same as SPM ... what about SRM? Are they thicker than SR/SPM cups?
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 3:11:43 PM EST
Micrograms? That is an incredibly tiny amount. It is milligrams.

Link Posted: 6/12/2009 3:16:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By TurboFC3S:
Originally Posted By Birkleberry:
Originally Posted By TurboFC3S:
Originally Posted By CBR900:
If you are trying to get more mis-fires, just try the CCI brand. Hard as rock and LOTS of duds. Harder still are CCI's "mil-spec" - they are nearly impossible to set off.



WOW! My guns must be supernatural then, because a 100% success rate using something that's "nearly impossible" must mean my rifles are blessed.

Question about SRM primers, do we KNOW that the cup is thicker ... or is their difference in explosive weight?


In the original post, the author said the tech on the phone said the cup is the same thickness in the SMP and SR primers.


I see what, I am asking about SRM primers ... not SR. SR are thicker cup than SP, but same as SPM ... what about SRM? Are they thicker than SR/SPM cups?


In the case of wolfs SMR primers that is THE only difference. Not sure about others.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 3:51:46 PM EST
Well done, informative and THANK YOU.

Link Posted: 6/12/2009 3:59:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/12/2009 4:01:30 PM EST by COSteve]

Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
To add to this post. Not disputing what was said Steve at all.

I talked to my ATK OEM guy about 6 weeks ago, and had an interesting conversation myself. I was told 4 million a day. One plant. Don't know how many machines. We discussed the process of making primers, which was interesting. I was told they have not have a positive stock of primers in over 2 years. They are building a new primer plant, but it is still 14 months out. We also talked about availability. This part might light a fire under your ass. He told me that he tells the his bosses about the customers complaints about shortages all the time. He gets a commission of sorts on sales. He gets told by his bosses that "We are an ammunition company, and not a component company." I had the same question that you are thinking. WTF? He tells me that the components are overruns of production stock. I am not sure I believe this.

You can draw your own conclusions.

I specifically mentioned that they might be concentrating on just supplying completed ammunition (as Flamethrower reports) and she said that there is some of that to be sure but that they also aren't about to walk away from those sales dollars either. She stated that they have longstanding contracts to supply primers to ammunition companies and they were being pressed to supply them. That means that they have specific production requirements for primers as separate components because they are needed to supply their contractual obligations.

While she didn't specifically mention it, I know that they have signed Government contracts which have DPS ratings (Defense Priority System). DPS is a body of Government regulations, orders and procedures issued under the authority of the Defense Production Act. DPS helps insure that defense programs are maintained on schedule by providing a priority for the purchase of products and materials (other than controlled materials which fall under the provisions of DMS (Defense Materials System) Regulation 1) by contractors, subcontractors and their suppliers. It's a requirement of doing business with the Government and Government contracts without a DPS rating are rare.

Under the DPS act, the Government prioritizes their orders based upon type and need and sets a required delivery date. If there is a conflict with previously placed commercial orders, the DPS rated orders have priority. Suppliers must give delivery preference to orders issued under Government contracts which are identified by priority rating numbers over orders for non-defense business. In the rare case that a company refused to follow their DPS commitments, the Government could step in a take over management of the plant until their orders were filled.

Originally Posted By abtex1:
Originally Posted By ThePontificator:
Three million primers divided by five thousand (a case) is 600 cases of primers per day.

that's 18K cases a month

I believe her saying that they're backordered by a billion but I'm having a bit of trouble believing their production is that low for a day.

Is it possible that she said that one assembly line or machine can manufacture 3 million per day? Certainly they have more than one primer mfr. assembly line. They sure as hell have more than one 'primer making machine'!

CCI needs to hire more Oompa Loompas

It wasn't posted what she meant by 3 million a day, whether or not that was only 3 million in total or three million in specific production to be boxed and sold as only reloading component primers. They produce primers for various factory ammo as well, so who knows exactly what that amount was. Its possible that while it may be 3 million a day a good portion of that goes off to companies for ammo, so the remaining amount for us reloaders to go after is much less. Who knows. I'm glad I have a stock saved up.

We were talking about specifically packaged primers to sell as primers, rather than as part of completed ammunition. She commented that most of the back orders are to secondary ammo makers and distributors of components. She didn't indicate if the number was just her plant or CCI wide, however, I understood us to be talking about CCI wide capacity.

Remember, she has worked there 38 yrs and even during the 'Clinton Scare' as she called it, she's never seen anything like this before. In addition, she mentioned that they have higher capacity than during 'Clinton' but that they have seen unprecedented demand that far surpasses even their wildest dreams of sales volume.

Further, I was calling about technical aspects of her product, not hand wringing about the unavailability of primers. Her comments were made in passing while she was looking up the specific specs I was asking about.

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Micrograms? That is an incredibly tiny amount. It is milligrams.

I was wondering about that myself (1:1,000,000 of a gram), however, the amount of primer material is so small I don't know. I could have misunderstood her when she said it. Maybe she did say milligrams. Sorry for the misstatement if I did.
Link Posted: 6/12/2009 5:07:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By COSteve:

Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
To add to this post. Not disputing what was said Steve at all.

Italked to my ATK OEM guy about 6 weeks ago, and had an interesting conversation myself. I was told 4 million a day. One plant. Don't knowhow many machines. We discussed the process of making primers, whichwas interesting. I was told they have not have a positive stock ofprimers in over 2 years. They are building a new primer plant, but itis still 14 months out. We also talked about availability. This partmight light a fire under your ass. He told me that he tells the hisbosses about the customers complaints about shortages all the time. Hegets a commission of sorts on sales. He gets told by his bosses that "Weare an ammunition company, and not a component company." I had the samequestion that you are thinking. WTF? He tells me that the components areoverruns of production stock. I am not sure I believe this.

You can draw your own conclusions.

I specifically mentioned that they might be concentrating on just supplying completed ammunition (as Flamethrower reports) and she said that there is some of that to be sure but that they also aren't about to walk away from those sales dollars either. She stated that they have longstanding contracts to supply primers to ammunition companies and they were being pressed to supply them. That means that they have specific production requirements for primers as separate components because they are needed to supply their contractual obligations.

While she didn't specifically mention it, I know that they have signed Government contracts which have DPS ratings (Defense Priority System). DPS is a body of Government regulations, orders and procedures issued under the authority of the Defense Production Act. DPS helps insure that defense programs are maintained on schedule by providing a priority for the purchase of products and materials (other than controlled materials which fall under the provisions of DMS (Defense Materials System) Regulation 1) by contractors, subcontractors and their suppliers. It's a requirement of doing business with the Government and Government contracts without a DPS rating are rare.

Under the DPS act, the Government prioritizes their orders based upon type and need and sets a required delivery date. If there is a conflict with previously placed commercial orders, the DPS rated orders have priority. Suppliers must give delivery preference to orders issued underGovernment contracts which are identified by priority rating numbersover orders for non-defense business. In the rare case that a company refused to follow their DPS commitments, the Government could step in a take over management of the plant until their orders were filled.

I was told something similar. I never suggested they did or should divert all primers to us loaders. Mearly relaying what was told to me. Sometimes my memory fails me and I forget little tidbits.


Originally Posted By abtex1:
Originally Posted By ThePontificator:
Three million primers divided by five thousand (a case) is 600 cases of primers per day.

that's 18K cases a month

Ibelieve her saying that they're backordered by a billion but I'm havinga bit of trouble believing their production is that low for a day.

Isit possible that she said that one assembly line or machine canmanufacture 3 million per day? Certainly they have more than one primermfr. assembly line. They sure as hell have more than one 'primer makingmachine'!

CCI needs to hire more Oompa Loompas

Itwasn't posted what she meant by 3 million a day, whether or not thatwas only 3 million in total or three million in specific production tobe boxed and sold as only reloading component primers. They produceprimers for various factory ammo as well, so who knows exactly whatthat amount was. Its possible that while it may be 3 million a day agood portion of that goes off to companies for ammo, so the remainingamount for us reloaders to go after is much less. Who knows. I'm glad Ihave a stock saved up.

We were talking about specifically packaged primers to sell as primers, rather than as part of completed ammunition. She commented that most of the back orders are to secondary ammo makers and distributors of components. She didn't indicate if the number was just her plant or CCI wide, however, I understood us to be talking about CCI wide capacity.

Remember, she has worked there 38 yrs and even during the 'Clinton Scare' as she called it, she's never seen anything like this before. In addition, she mentioned that they have higher capacity than during 'Clinton' but that they have seen unprecedented demand that far surpasses even their wildest dreams of sales volume.

Further, I was calling about technical aspects of her product, not hand wringing about the unavailability of primers. Her comments were made in passing while she was looking up the specific specs I was asking about.

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Micrograms? That is an incredibly tiny amount. It is milligrams.

I was wondering about that myself (1:1,000,000 of a gram), Maybe the are using 1 micrgram of Pu-239 The first thermonuclear primers. lol however, the amount of primer material is so small I don't know. I could have misunderstood her when she said it. Maybe she did say milligrams. Sorry for the misstatement if I did.


Link Posted: 6/13/2009 4:07:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By TurboFC3S:
Originally Posted By Birkleberry:
Originally Posted By TurboFC3S:
Originally Posted By CBR900:
If you are trying to get more mis-fires, just try the CCI brand. Hard as rock and LOTS of duds. Harder still are CCI's "mil-spec" - they are nearly impossible to set off.



WOW! My guns must be supernatural then, because a 100% success rate using something that's "nearly impossible" must mean my rifles are blessed.

Question about SRM primers, do we KNOW that the cup is thicker ... or is their difference in explosive weight?


In the original post, the author said the tech on the phone said the cup is the same thickness in the SMP and SR primers.


I see that, I am asking about SRM primers ... not SR. SR are thicker cup than SP, but same as SPM ... what about SRM? Are they thicker than SR/SPM cups?


Yes SRM / #41's have a thicker cup than regular SR or SPM primers. Thats why you shouldnt use SRM primers in pistols, the cups are thicker/harder than a rugular SR which is the same as a SPM primer.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 4:37:16 PM EST
Call me simple, but I am getting a little confused here.

It is ok to substitute small pistol magnum (SPM) primers for small rifle (SR) primers? Does this go both ways?

Basically, they are the same size and will fit into the respective primer pocket, but the thickness of the primer cup in a small rifle magnum (SRM) may/may not cause ignition problems in a pistol due to the lighter strike of the firing pin. This is caused by the lighter hammer spring on a pistol?

Do I have this right?

Link Posted: 6/13/2009 4:45:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By EWP:
Originally Posted By TurboFC3S:
Originally Posted By Birkleberry:
Originally Posted By TurboFC3S:
Originally Posted By CBR900:
If you are trying to get more mis-fires, just try the CCI brand. Hard as rock and LOTS of duds. Harder still are CCI's "mil-spec" - they are nearly impossible to set off.



WOW! My guns must be supernatural then, because a 100% success rate using something that's "nearly impossible" must mean my rifles are blessed.

Question about SRM primers, do we KNOW that the cup is thicker ... or is their difference in explosive weight?


In the original post, the author said the tech on the phone said the cup is the same thickness in the SMP and SR primers.


I see that, I am asking about SRM primers ... not SR. SR are thicker cup than SP, but same as SPM ... what about SRM? Are they thicker than SR/SPM cups?


Yes SRM / #41's have a thicker cup than regular SR or SPM primers. Thats why you shouldnt use SRM primers in pistols, the cups are thicker/harder than a rugular SR which is the same as a SPM primer.



i use the cci 41's in my smith's without issues they go bang everytime. also, when i was converting from small pistol to small rifle in my handgun rounds, i dropped my load and worked up because i thought there was more oomph in the rifle primers. i ended up with exactly the same load. same amount of oomph. (oomph = technical measuring term )
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 12:48:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By Pirate6:
Call me simple, but I am getting a little confused here.

It is OK to substitute small pistol magnum (SPM) primers for small rifle (SR) primers? Does this go both ways?

Basically, they are the same size and will fit into the respective primer pocket, but the thickness of the primer cup in a small rifle magnum (SRM) may/may not cause ignition problems in a pistol due to the lighter strike of the firing pin. This is caused by the lighter hammer spring on a pistol?

Do I have this right?



You have it right except for the using SRM primers for pistol use just because they are the same size. Just because they are harder/thicker and hard to ignite is not the only difference you'll have with them, they for sure burn hotter than a SR or SPM primer and could cause overpressure fast in a pistol round.

Also this info is for CCI primers, I would not expect every company to be the same or as interchangeable as the CCI primers are.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 1:18:17 AM EST
Thanks for the information!
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 3:59:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By Scalce:
If people are currently getting their backorders than the primers are being distributed somehow.

I think all of these "numbers" that people throw out are just fueling the fire.


I don't know of anyone getting CCI primers....I could be wrong.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 7:06:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 7:07:13 PM EST by EWP]
Originally Posted By johnsta:
Originally Posted By Scalce:
If people are currently getting their backorders than the primers are being distributed somehow.

I think all of these "numbers" that people throw out are just fueling the fire.


I don't know of anyone getting CCI primers....I could be wrong.


My reloading supplier is getting primers like once a week 3 weeks out of the month(no telling how long he has had back orders placed though because this is all he does), and yes he has CCI (#41's & SP) , Federal 205 & 205M, & Rem 7 1/2's & I don't pay any attention to the large size primers he has but there are some of those also. Another one of my suppliers has cases of CCI SP, SPM, LP, LR, just no small rifle at his place( not for sale anyway) but they are out there you just have to find them.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 8:13:11 PM EST
Thanks for the info COSteve!
It is very helpful.
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