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Posted: 6/30/2007 8:00:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2007 3:12:15 AM EDT by Victor]
Link Posted: 7/1/2007 7:24:40 AM EDT
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Image Intensifier - Generation 3 US
· Resolution – 73LP
· Signal to Noise (S/N) – 29.9
· Photo Response (PR) – 2782
· EBI – 2.570
· Halo – 0.64
PR=2782!! good God! Supervision`s gonna have a tough time against that 760!  Also, already it looks like some of my predictions were close, I may not have to eat much crow after all, maybe only a wing, or a crow mcnugget! still, so far it looks like a very viable alternative to Gen I+.
Link Posted: 7/1/2007 9:43:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2007 9:39:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/5/2008 10:25:20 PM EDT by murderman]
As the 20 foot minimum focus distance of the SVM precludes any effective use in an enclosed environment, will you at least be doing some testing in a rural environment with/without supplemental IR during the next new moon?  This will give some comparison of performance under low light conditions, which to me at least, is where the "rubber meets the road".

ETA:  A supplemental report is available on page 6 of this thread based upon my experience with this device.
Link Posted: 7/2/2007 10:31:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2007 1:50:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2007 1:51:19 PM EDT by 1paintball]
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After this review with a 1/2 and full moon in a rural environment, there might not be a need!
Lettin` `em down easy?
Link Posted: 7/3/2007 5:58:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1paintball:

After this review with a 1/2 and full moon in a rural environment, there might not be a need!
Lettin` `em down easy?


Link Posted: 7/3/2007 6:24:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2007 6:25:36 PM EDT by 1paintball]
The suits are going berserk over at the yahoo XNN forum!messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_X/threadview?m=tm&bn=26510&tid=18952&mid=18953&tof=1&rt=2&frt=2&off=1 this one is even worsemessages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_X/threadview?m=tm&bn=26510&tid=18952&mid=18954&tof=1&rt=2&frt=2&off=1 I don`t feel bad at all about being hard on them when they invaded our forum with their B.S.
Link Posted: 7/3/2007 7:21:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1paintball:
The suits are going berserk over at the yahoo XNN forum!messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_X/threadview?m=tm&bn=26510&tid=18952&mid=18953&tof=1&rt=2&frt=2&off=1 this one is even worsemessages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_X/threadview?m=tm&bn=26510&tid=18952&mid=18954&tof=1&rt=2&frt=2&off=1 I don`t feel bad at all about being hard on them when they invaded our forum with their B.S.


NOW THAT'S SOME FUNNY SHIT!


Link Posted: 7/3/2007 8:24:12 PM EDT
I went over and read what was being said on that stock market forum,

12000bucks, ???? these people have not a clue to reality, if they cant get a simple thing as price right, think they are gonna get anything else right,

and also, there is more people here on this forum who have forgotten more than those over there will ever learn on the NV topic,

oh well, but then again what do we expect from stockmarket kiddies,
Link Posted: 7/3/2007 9:35:58 PM EDT
Victor,

Awesome job regardless of what the zombies over on yahoo are saying about you.  hey
I have a couple questions about the images...  It appears that the images for the Supervision were quite blurry compared to the other devices.  Is that the gist of what you were seeing?  I assume you tried manually focusing the image to get better clarity.  

Also, the Supervision images appear stretched horizontally.  Was that how they appeared in the device itself or did that have something to do with the camera taking the picture?

Thanks again.  I'm looking forward to the next part of the field test.

Link Posted: 7/3/2007 9:40:21 PM EDT
Awesome review as usual.
Link Posted: 7/3/2007 10:04:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HootieWho:
Awesome review as usual.



+1

Link Posted: 7/3/2007 10:10:19 PM EDT
Obvious to me that those hyping the stock are investors at best and insiders at worst. Professional (big money) investors seek out facts and ignore hype. IMO, these folks have a vested interest, much as the others that have appeared on various gunboards hyping a product that hadnt hit the market.
Link Posted: 7/3/2007 10:14:28 PM EDT
The fact that the one guy keeps ranting about $13,000 for Gen3 clearly shows how little he knows.  Did I miss something, or wasn't it XNN who made the claim that SVM was better than conventional NV in every aspect?  Now their cheerleaders are complaining when an informed 3rd party makes an objective comparison disproving that false claim.  I suspect those same cheerleaders are the trolls from the other thread.  

I would still like to see the performance of the SVM in the darkest of dark environments firsthand; that is after all what night vision is for.  Maybe when Victor is done with his testing, he would be willing to ship the unit to one of us for some "informed consumer" testing without the criticism of bias.  I'd be willing to pay the shipping to pass it on to the next in line.

If XNN wasn't a penny stock to start with, I'd sell some short, but the risk isn't worth the $2 per share maximum to be gained.  Better to stick with blue chips.  YMMV
Link Posted: 7/3/2007 10:18:08 PM EDT
Nice review as always Victor.  That was about what I was expecting.  It does an ok job, but I dont think I would fork over 1400 for it.

And whats this the yahoo (that appropriate) stock guys are saying?  Can I resell my very excellent pvs 14 for 13grand?  I can get two more and a 760 with that kinda profit
Link Posted: 7/3/2007 10:27:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2007 2:26:09 AM EDT by Victor]
Link Posted: 7/3/2007 10:32:48 PM EDT
Once again, if it was the Holy Grail of NV, they'd have sold it to the (or a) Government.  

I predict a Troll invasion, extolling the merits of the system, and the obvious lack of experience of anyone who actually uses NV, as opposed to looking at cool pictures on Advertising sites.

I'd also like to see it tested against the other digital viewing systems, to see if it's any kind of a breakthrough at all.
Link Posted: 7/3/2007 11:45:13 PM EDT
So, what does 27cyble think about the review?
Link Posted: 7/4/2007 12:12:12 AM EDT
Great review Vic!  I think we all assumed that Supvision would not live up to their marketing.  I have to admit though, it was a little better than I expected.  I wish Supervision would not try to over market their product.  I think they could (with some time and improvement) make a very nice product.  Seems like digital technology has come a long way.  I hope in the future this technology can improve and produce a better overall NV product and drive prices down for the consumer.  Looks like Supervision needs to work on an optical zoom, better processing, and make it weapon mountable.  Hopefully, their research and developement department will continue to make improvements to their product.  Untill then, Gen III still is king!
Link Posted: 7/4/2007 2:13:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2007 2:17:43 AM EDT by Victor]
Link Posted: 7/4/2007 4:18:15 AM EDT
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Great review Vic! I think we all assumed that Supvision would not live up to their marketing. I have to admit though, it was a little better than I expected. I wish Supervision would not try to over market their product. I think they could (with some time and improvement) make a very nice product. Seems like digital technology has come a long way. I hope in the future this technology can improve and produce a better overall NV product and drive prices down for the consumer. Looks like Supervision needs to work on an optical zoom, better processing, and make it weapon mountable. Hopefully, their research and developement department will continue to make improvements to their product. Untill then, Gen III still is king!
This technology has already been improved: www.toshiba.com/taisisd/indmed/products/pdf/ik1000me.pdf  Also, the tubes Vic is using aren`t even the latest tech, I`ll bet a Pinnacle gen III autogated tube would perform even better in an urban high light situation (less blooming), or even better, a filmless autogated tube (better photoresponce, smaller halo)
Link Posted: 7/4/2007 5:09:21 AM EDT
Damage control?  www.profile6.com/sv/
Link Posted: 7/4/2007 8:49:26 AM EDT
Great work on the review so far Vic.  I am a Xenonics investor, though my position is much smaller than it used to be after it became apparent the company failed to come anywhere close to manufacturing 3000 SV units this quarter as predicted.  Also I think their Kaltron PR is an exaggeration.

I would like to see the urban review re-done using SV manual gain instead of SV automatic gain if that is going to make a significant difference on reducing the white-out.  It would be nice to see from a 3rd party what the SV is fully capable or not capable of.

The SuperVision is available at $1079 at one particular online retailer so clearly it is going to be an inexpensive unit compared to Gen III + zoom technology.  It is hard to predict how price sensitive law enforcement is going to be.

Link Posted: 7/4/2007 9:39:53 AM EDT
Im waiting for Victor to give us his final installment. I hope he will grade it in relation to the other units taking into account performance and price. Great job.
Link Posted: 7/4/2007 9:47:25 AM EDT
I'm an unbiased 3rd party, if Victor will send me one of his PVS-14s and Xeno sends me one of their gadgets, I'll try both of them out in an unlit portion of desert for you guys and return a review....
Link Posted: 7/4/2007 9:52:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/4/2007 9:58:55 AM EDT
Wow I am late to this party. Gotta lay off the late nights with the strippers...

Vic put a ton of work into this review and I will say that he picked some very difficult lighting situations for both systems. I also realize photographing this was no easy chore.

I will say the Supervision performed better than I expected. I was thinking much worse, but in the end I would NOT purchase one of these based on it's performance to price ratio. Call me silly. It is one half to one third the cost of a PVS 14 and does not perform half as well.

I can not use this device for any of my applications. It falls way tooooo short in some very basic areas for me. Also I will not recommend it to any Law Enforcement agencies who I occasionally consult for. The Military guys have already rejected this out of hand, off the supervisions own specs. No 1 X, a two hour battery life... They never even got to waterproof as a question.

I just read the Yahoo stuff and about fell off my chair laughing. I wonder how deeply invested some people are in this mess. This leads me to wonder how many investors get lead down the prim rose path everyday in general?

GOOD GRIEF ! ! !

Vic do you plan to do any testing in enclosed spaces? Like say a building search scenario?  Maybe even passively?

IPSC_GUY
SIERRA II ALPHA

Link Posted: 7/4/2007 9:59:22 AM EDT
I thought it was a very professional and balanced review Victor.

Can't wait to see the next installment of your review of these systems.  I'm glad I came across these forums, good to see a lot of knowlegable people discussing and comparing these technologies.
Link Posted: 7/4/2007 10:01:06 AM EDT
I thought it was a very professional and balanced review Victor.

Can't wait to see the next installment of your review of these systems.  I'm glad I came across these forums, good to see a lot of knowlegable people discussing and comparing these technologies.
Link Posted: 7/4/2007 10:33:14 AM EDT
SV looks like a decent NVD for the price and they probably can improve on it greatly.  It definately is not Gen 4 or anything even close to Gen 3. but why is everyone so about it?  Competition is what makes America great!!!

AC
Link Posted: 7/4/2007 10:57:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/4/2007 11:06:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2007 11:09:22 AM EDT by IPSC_GUY]

Originally Posted By AC_Doctor:
SV looks like a decent NVD for the price and they probably can improve on it greatly.  It definately is not Gen 4 or anything even close to Gen 3. but why is everyone so about it?  Competition is what makes America great!!!

AC


I think the deal is that these guys came out saying they had taken an evolutionary step forward past the current technology in Night vision.

Night Vision is something near and dear to my fuzzy little heart as this is a technology our Armed forces bet their lives on. So I am keenly interested to be sure.

Then they sold a bunch of stock in their own company on this "fact" of a new device that was going to take the market by storm. This is where it gets evil. The reality is that the devices is not up to it's claims and there are people still saying, buy more stock NOW ! ! ! Is this going to be a an Enron like scam? Doubtful, hopefully no one has sunk their life savings into this company.  

It would not be a big deal if they had come on the scene saying "Hey we have this new device check it out" and let supply and demand on the market dictate it's success or failure. There are people sitting on the ends of telephones talking to other people who have money and these invsetors do not have a background in night vision equipment. They are being told that this product is something it isn't and they are being asked to invest their hard earned dollars into this company... that is the rub for me.

IPSC_GUY
SIERRA II ALPHA

P.S. the girls insisted on breakfast. How much silicon enhancement can ya pack into a Porsche?
Link Posted: 7/4/2007 1:22:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By IPSC_GUY:

Originally Posted By AC_Doctor:
SV looks like a decent NVD for the price and they probably can improve on it greatly.  It definately is not Gen 4 or anything even close to Gen 3. but why is everyone so about it?  Competition is what makes America great!!!

AC


I think the deal is that these guys came out saying they had taken an evolutionary step forward past the current technology in Night vision.

Night Vision is something near and dear to my fuzzy little heart as this is a technology our Armed forces bet their lives on. So I am keenly interested to be sure.

Then they sold a bunch of stock in their own company on this "fact" of a new device that was going to take the market by storm. This is where it gets evil. The reality is that the devices is not up to it's claims and there are people still saying, buy more stock NOW ! ! ! Is this going to be a an Enron like scam? Doubtful, hopefully no one has sunk their life savings into this company.  

It would not be a big deal if they had come on the scene saying "Hey we have this new device check it out" and let supply and demand on the market dictate it's success or failure. There are people sitting on the ends of telephones talking to other people who have money and these invsetors do not have a background in night vision equipment. They are being told that this product is something it isn't and they are being asked to invest their hard earned dollars into this company... that is the rub for me.

IPSC_GUY
SIERRA II ALPHA

P.S. the girls insisted on breakfast. How much silicon enhancement can ya pack into a Porsche?


PICS?
Link Posted: 7/4/2007 1:31:28 PM EDT
I definitely believe the future of NV tech will be digital, and there are systems that are close to performing as to Supervisions claims (link from another thread)
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Here's a link I found about slow shutter color night vision photographs, the Toshiba you linked to has this same slow-shutter capability under extreme low light going by the brochure.

www.avssc.com/starlight_cams.htm

I can only imagine it must be an awsome experience to see full color at night but still see the stars in a blue sky with moonlight looking like sunlight. :D
eventually some company will put this tech in a monocular or binocular system, possibly combined with long wave thermal sensors. but for now, I would like to see some field tests comparing Supervision to this scope: igen2020.com/ much more reasonable price, and a video out port (no holding a camera up to the eyepiece lens).
Link Posted: 7/4/2007 1:46:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2007 1:50:14 PM EDT by 1paintball]
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IPSC_GUY
SIERRA II ALPHA

P.S. the girls insisted on breakfast. How much silicon enhancement can ya pack into a Porsche?
Lots!! (if you stack them!) I took several of those type sweeties out on Lake Wylie for some "midnight boating", problem was, they couldn`t seem to get their life preservers on properly??!! hink     ( sorry for getting off topic)
Link Posted: 7/4/2007 2:38:09 PM EDT
I have been looking at that Igen 20/20, I can't find any real tech. info on it, no actual pictures thru the lens, it looks like one of the expensive toys to me.
Link Posted: 7/4/2007 7:11:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RoXoR:

The SuperVision is available at $1079 at one particular online retailer so clearly it is going to be an inexpensive unit compared to Gen III + zoom technology.  It is hard to predict how price sensitive law enforcement is going to be.



I'd buy one for that price if it were a head mount...
Link Posted: 7/4/2007 10:45:37 PM EDT
Otherdave, where did you get that quote "never make another person a priority when they merely see you as an option" ?  I like it , it cleanly says why my last girl friend is my last girl friend.
Link Posted: 7/4/2007 11:18:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheOtherDave:

Originally Posted By RoXoR:

The SuperVision is available at $1079 at one particular online retailer so clearly it is going to be an inexpensive unit compared to Gen III + zoom technology.  It is hard to predict how price sensitive law enforcement is going to be.



I'd buy one for that price if it were a head mount...


The lowest magnification is a 2x so it would'nt make a good head mounted unit.

For that price, you can get a D 300 that you could use head mounted. IMO, the D 300(gen 2)has lots of stuff on Supervision.  From what I can tell from Victors pics, the unit peforms the same as the $400.00 Yukon with the exeption of the variable magnification.
Link Posted: 7/5/2007 3:26:51 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/5/2007 7:36:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 27cyble:
Otherdave, where did you get that quote "never make another person a priority when they merely see you as an option" ?  I like it , it cleanly says why my last girl friend is my last girl friend.


From another ARFCOM'er......

It really rings true to me as I find myself overextending myself to people when they don't deserve it or use me over time. Happens to everyone in relationships, work, and life. People use people.
Link Posted: 7/5/2007 10:35:23 AM EDT
I hate to say this....the more of the specs I see, the more right I feel with my speculation.

5-30 FPS - obvious sign of longer frame integration time. I hate to see anything less than 30 FPS. 5 FPS is horrible....I don't think 5 is realistic for any military applications, where a split second means something. 5FPS = close to 200 millisecond integration time.....fast moving targets will smear like nothing else. I^2 has no frame rate....a BIG plus there in my book.

Gain control? IMO, that's the function of change of integration time by the DSP and Dynamic Range Compression (DRC) and Histogram adjustment.

You can neglect the last paragraph if you have no idea what those words mean....If you're curious...

http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Glossary/Digital_Imaging/dynamic_range_01.htm

BTW, autogated tubes will take care of the blooming nicely.
Link Posted: 7/5/2007 10:57:54 AM EDT
I now see super vision as an initial offering by xenonics, it has been compared to tubes to create a stir, and it has. If I had a military application for night vision I would be useing a tube, period. Super vision will find its place, Im interested in what they will be offering in the future, I have discovered that the main engineer for xenonics was formerly a patent producer for ITT in the night vision field, he has to bring real insight to the business. waiting for victors final installment.
Link Posted: 7/5/2007 11:22:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Victor:
I have updated the final installment of the urban session with some indoor house shots.  Two more parts to go! Whew!  Thanks all,

Vic


Thanks for this latest addition Vic, your extensive efforts in this testing are much appreciated.
Link Posted: 7/5/2007 1:36:25 PM EDT

I now see super vision as an initial offering by xenonics, it has been compared to tubes to create a stir, and it has. If I had a military application for night vision I would be useing a tube, period. Super vision will find its place, Im interested in what they will be offering in the future, I have discovered that the main engineer for xenonics was formerly a patent producer for ITT in the night vision field, he has to bring real insight to the business. waiting for victors final installment.
Finally I do agree with you, Supervision will find its place!.........in the $300.00 to $400.00 range!  As for comparing it to I2 tubes to create a stir, thats called FALSE ADVERTISING! which is something the SEC might be interested in as well, considering the stock situation. Xenonic`s mis-representation is so blatant, that some enterprising attorney could buy one and sue for real and punitive damages
Link Posted: 7/5/2007 2:20:45 PM EDT
Super vision is not a toy. Victors final assessment will be interesting, I hope he classifies it in some way.
Link Posted: 7/5/2007 2:25:29 PM EDT
Not a toy?  Judging by those pictures taken indoors it looks like it's not even worthy of "toyhood."  I mean it looks to me like the damn thing doesn't work at all!

How is that possible?

I know next to nothing about night vision equipment but I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be able to "see in the dark," no?


Thanks for the updates Victor.
Link Posted: 7/5/2007 7:55:37 PM EDT
As expected, a very exhaustive and professional review, Victor.  Thank you for your effort!

Link Posted: 7/5/2007 8:02:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/5/2007 8:48:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1paintball:
Finally I do agree with you, Supervision will find its place!.........in the $300.00 to $400.00 range!  As for comparing it to I2 tubes to create a stir, thats called FALSE ADVERTISING! which is something the SEC might be interested in as well, considering the stock situation. Xenonic`s mis-representation is so blatant, that some enterprising attorney could buy one and sue for real and punitive damages


This is EXACTLY what I was thinking on all counts, except I was thinking 'stock manipulation' instead of 'false advertising'.  
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