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Posted: 10/12/2004 4:08:52 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 4:34:35 PM EST
Learn somethinge veryday, don't ya??
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 5:58:02 PM EST
I agree, but............


For a home defense weapon, statistics (actually my limited reading of the Armed Person in an NRA mag) suggest that more than one or two shots are NOT necessary. So, if your light works just once, good to go.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 6:26:11 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 8:52:33 PM EST
I had a Surefire 6P break a contact in a bulb after falling three feet.

I saw a guy with Pelican M6s at a gunshow and asked him if he had any shock isolated bezels. He told me that the bulb design isn't as fragile as a Surefire. I ask him to beat one on the table like I had just seen him do with a different model Pelican light.

He pounded the light and it worked great.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 9:11:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2004 10:28:18 PM EST by Size15s]
I've done that to SureFires (and worse) without failure.

Bulbs fail. It happens to every brand.

Take a sample of 10 of each light and beat the screaming heebeegeebees out of them and then decide. Basing performance on just one sample is not that sound, certainly in my experience.

Al
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:41:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/13/2004 3:43:47 AM EST by Yojimbo]
I've heard switching to a LED head on handhelds that are being used as weapon lights will get rid of the "shock" issues because there's no filament to break. This makes sense to me but I've never tried it.

Eitherway I believe it's good advice to use right tool for the job...
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:42:21 AM EST
There is a big difference in the designs of the bulbs themselves. Pelican bulb design is not as fragile.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:03:57 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 7:05:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By new-arguy:
LED is a tough light and there is no filimant to break, but you compromise on the brightness you cna achieve and the distance the light can be thrown with LEDs.


Brightness? You can get 65 Lumen LED lights (same as the G2). Throw? Maybe not as much (though I wouldn't say that about the X200) but how much do you need for home defense?

NAG, I use a G2 with the Z32 on one of my .223 rifles (the 20") and have no issues - heck I didn't have an issue with it using it through FIRE's Carbine 1 and Carbine 2 (which is a night/low light class so the light gets used alot).

It could be just one of those 'bad bulbs' or it could be it was a 9mm (vs .223) and the different recoil caused it. In any case have him spend the $18 and get the Z32 anti shock bezel.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 9:46:05 AM EST
From my observations on my Surefire lights it seems the older (more burn time on the bulb) the weaker it gets. Could age/burn time be a factor on the a Surefire bulb's strength?
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 9:55:07 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 11:11:22 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 12:38:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By RABIDFOX50:
From my observations on my Surefire lights it seems the older (more burn time on the bulb) the weaker it gets.



Excellent observation - I was wondering that myself. I've noticed my new (barely used) G2's have a brighter/whiter beam than my older (much used) 6V Surefires - even when they both have new battereies. I was thinking it was my eyes or something.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 2:00:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/13/2004 2:02:12 PM EST by BrightFlashlights]
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 9:14:57 PM EST
I have no data to support SureFire bulbs weakening with age, but my understanding of incandescent bulbs in general is that over time with use the amount of tungsten that does not get re-deposited back onto the filament from whence it came tends to increase. It's a vicious circle because as the filament thins it thins faster and re-deposition if it happens tend not to happen at the thinnest point. So of course, when you see your bulb start to discolour for reliability's sake it may be worth rotating that lamp out of critical use.

In general, I believe it is better not to run flashlights until the batteries are dead. Underpowering lamps reduces the ability of the Halogen Cycle (that recycles the vapourised filament) to work.

Al
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 10:27:01 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 12:11:41 AM EST
A lot of guys in the sandbox are running G2s on their weapons without incident. Of course, some don;t have a choice in the matter. I don't do it and I never recommend anyone do it unless they know about the limitations of a handheld light on a weapon. The chances of failure increase when using a handheld light on a weapon. That's not to say that it absolutely will fail, but the chances are higher. A shock isolated bezel does make it a bit sturdier, but it still won't be a specifically designed weaponlight with design elements incorporated to make the system more robust. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there is nothing wrong with the practice, but please be well informed of the drawbacks before using a handheld light on a weapon meant for serious social work.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 4:57:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By new-arguy:
... She said something along the lines of... Its not the odds, its the stakes. How true.



Hehe So true. I guess that's why I run a 650 on my primary rifle (the only one I use a P61 on) and G2/Z32s with P60s on my other ARs. However I am continually looking at the LED lights - I'll take durability, reliability, and battery life over a few extra lumens.

I think the G2/Z32 setup is fine for entry level - it's as good or better than the TacM3 lights (which have to stop ring or anti-shock cushioning) at a lower cost.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 5:16:04 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 5:32:36 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 5:47:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Laser Devices makes a very nice OP-6 in an LED. It is very bright and has a good throw...

C4



Grant I just might take a look at that if the light I've ordered doesn't 'do it'.

I found an LED light that is supposed to put out about 65 Lumens, with a 2 hour run time and get this - it takes 2 AA batteries (just like my EOTech) and will even run on NiMHs. It should be here sometime in early November...
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 8:52:46 AM EST
Can you share any details of this wonderous light with us please?

Link Posted: 10/14/2004 8:59:20 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 9:19:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By JTAC_Supply:
Yeah, but can you run a G2 light with a Tacpoint on the same gun with reliability? I just have to know



Link Posted: 10/14/2004 9:43:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 9:44:29 AM EST by Forest]

Originally Posted By Size15s:
Can you share any details of this wonderous light with us please?



I plan on writing up a full review as soon as I get one. After conversing with the builder(Wayne) I think they have some real potential. However I'll hold judgement till I have one to test side by side with my Surefires and knock it around a bit.

At worst it will make a great Truck light for keeping in the glove box, at best it gives me the same light as my basic Surefires, for a longer period, using a very common battery.

I've also been given hints on 'hot rodding it' after I get it to get it around 72 Lumens. No thank you but if one of you wants to try I'll pass along Wayne's advice.

Anyway the light is called the XM-3

Downsides?
Its a bit longer (2" more) and heavier (2oz) than my Surefire 650
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 11:43:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 11:45:43 AM EST by Johnny_C]
Here's what I set up a few years ago & it still works. I put Streamlight Scopians
in 1" rings on the bottom of my ARs, 9 & .223. Then I became aware of the concern
of the recoil to bulb issue. I shot this arrangement at a carbine class night session,
with no failure, on my .223. My brother (LE) was asking about this set up for his carry
car, & I couldn't recommend it to him, for obvious reasons. However, for limited use,
I believe it has worked fine for me as a civy, for the following reasons.

1) I now have it mounted with a quick detachable mount, so I can take it off, when I
don't need it. This saves wear & tear from recoil, such as day light shooting. This also
allows me to quickly & easily take the light off the rifle for hand held use, and put back
quickly, as well as tranfer it to different firearms.

2) The Scorpians have a rubber over coating, which will, obviously, help protect the bulb.

3) The bulbs are help in place with two straight pins that are inserted into tension electical
contacts. This straight pin arrangement will allow the bulb to slowly slide out under recoil,
thus also protecting the filament. I have had the bulb go out one time, but I found that all
I had to do was re-insert it back into the bezel. Bulb was still OK.

Flame away!

I have been browsing AR15.com looking for a set up like this to recommend to my brother.
I read in a thread about a light & mount system a few days ago, but I cant find it now, that
talked about light that could be bought for $45 with a shock isolated bezel. Who's light
might that be?

Johnny C!
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 12:40:56 PM EST
I will state again that I find nothing wrong with using a handheld light mounted on a weapon. Just be sure to know the limitations and drawbacks. I would not personally use one on a weapon that will be used for real world situations nor could I ever, in good conscience, recommend doing it. Many have not had problems and many also have had problems. I don't thin there is any reason to flame or argue about it, just like I didn't see any real reason to argue about the tacpoint. AS with the less expensive optic choices, you have to know the chances of failure are higher.

Just because the Tacpoint is cosmetically similar to an Aimpoint and can take a little more punishment than a Leaper's or Burris scope, doesn't mean it will hold up to combat and extreme field condidtions. Just because the polymer body of a G2 will absorb recoil beter than an aluminum body and a shock isolated bezel will take more punishment off the bulb, doesn't mean it offers the same protection of the bulb or the sturdiness of a dedicated and specifically designed weaponlight. It is absolutely not ideal for that purpose. Like I said, some in the war have no choice as the G2 was all that was available. It works decently, but not as well as MU series light. I'm sure if those guys had a choice, they would have gone with the more robust system.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 1:16:48 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:10:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By new-arguy:
Id take a G2 on my rifle over no light at all, thats a fact.



And that is the real issue for some people, Neil. I have friends in some pretty far-flung places who would kill for nothing more than a G2 with shock-isolated bezel mounted on a 5.56 carbine. I have sent a few and they have been well-received, indeed. Are they the equivalent of say, a M962C? Hell no! But these guys have no way to mount such a light anyway. There is no way a hand held will ever really measure up to a serious weaponlight setup...but such is not always in the cards for all of us...and for damned sure, any decent light beats none at all! (The X200 is also a big hit on their new Glocks!)
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 5:22:27 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 7:32:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 7:38:26 PM EST by NYPatriot]

There is no way a hand held will ever really measure up to a serious weapon light setup


Actually, if someone could come up with a drop in washer/spacer that would prevent the batteries from impacting the bulb, a G2 with a Z32 anti-shock bezel & a Z48/49 click on/off tailcap would be the functional equivalent of any of Surefire's dedicated weapon lights.

As it is, I'm flirting with the idea of wrapping the batteries in my G2 with enough packing tape as to achieve a friction fit that is free of all movement. Granted, getting the batteries in & out might take a little extra effort, but once they are in, they are not moving under the force of recoil (at least that is my theory).

What do you guys think... would it work?
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 10:13:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By NYPatriot:

There is no way a hand held will ever really measure up to a serious weapon light setup


Actually, if someone could come up with a drop in washer/spacer that would prevent the batteries from impacting the bulb, a G2 with a Z32 anti-shock bezel & a Z48/49 click on/off tailcap would be the functional equivalent of any of Surefire's dedicated weapon lights.

As it is, I'm flirting with the idea of wrapping the batteries in my G2 with enough packing tape as to achieve a friction fit that is free of all movement. Granted, getting the batteries in & out might take a little extra effort, but once they are in, they are not moving under the force of recoil (at least that is my theory).

What do you guys think... would it work?



The metal lining inside the G2 is used to complete the circuit. Even if you did get it to "work" it may hurt reliability if the packing shifts and cuts off the contact between the push button and the metal lining or elsewhere. Personally I'd look for a way to cut the batteries forward movement the same way they do on weapon lights -- a ring infront of the batteries blocks them but has a hole in the center of it for the lamp to make contact with the batteries.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 11:44:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By NYPatriot:

There is no way a hand held will ever really measure up to a serious weapon light setup


Actually, if someone could come up with a drop in washer/spacer that would prevent the batteries from impacting the bulb, a G2 with a Z32 anti-shock bezel & a Z48/49 click on/off tailcap would be the functional equivalent of any of Surefire's dedicated weapon lights.

As it is, I'm flirting with the idea of wrapping the batteries in my G2 with enough packing tape as to achieve a friction fit that is free of all movement. Granted, getting the batteries in & out might take a little extra effort, but once they are in, they are not moving under the force of recoil (at least that is my theory).

What do you guys think... would it work?




I have a G2 with Z32 bezel. I wrapped my batteries with one or two wraps of clear packing tape. The batteries slide in just fine. I also use two standard Weaver rings mounted side by side to reduce vibration. I lost count of how many rounds I've put through this weapon with the light mounted.......it's still running just fine.

I have toyed around with the idea of installing a nylon washer in front of the batteries to prevent them from slaming forward but haven't seen a problem yet with that.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 9:45:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 9:55:44 PM EST by NYPatriot]
What really chafes my hide is that Surefire could have simply designed the metal lining inside the G2 to have a battery retaining "lip." Add a shock isolated bezel and a tail cap upgrade & you would had an honest to goodness entry-level weapons light for less than $100!

But of course they would never do that. After all, how would they ever get us to spend $300 on a flashlight again?
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 3:03:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By NYPatriot:
What really chafes my hide is that Surefire could have simply designed the metal lining inside the G2 to have a battery retaining "lip." Add a shock isolated bezel and a tail cap upgrade & you would had an honest to goodness entry-level weapons light for less than $100!

But of course they would never do that. After all, how would they ever get us to spend $300 on a flashlight again?



Agreed - I don't see how it could add that much extra cost on their end to add this to all of their lights. However, it is one of the primary features differentiating their handhelds (relatively cheap) from their weaponlights ($$$) since the bezel can be had as an add-on. As you said, if it this simple thing was available on the low-end lights, then people wouldn't buy the high-end stuff. However, such tactics aren't a new idea, and they certainly aren't the only manufacturer doing such.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 3:20:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By BrightFlashlights:

Originally Posted By ikor:
Originally Posted By new-arguy:
Id take a G2 on my rifle over no light at all, thats a fact.



And that is the real issue for some people, Neil. I have friends in some pretty far-flung places <snip>



....and a BF customer who is very pleased with a G2 for a different reason too. I think it's a wise alternative for a civilian in a condo that wants a light in an emergency but isn't absolutely depending upon it.
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