AR Sponsor
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Wolf wound potential? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 6/6/2005 10:47:38 AM EDT
|
What would actually happen if you were to use it in a home defense or combat situation? I know Wolf doesnt frag, but what kind of knock down power would it have? |
|
It seems like it would be the same as getting hit by M193 or M855 (depending on the bullet size) past the fragmentation range. Even though it won't fragment, it will still tumble. So while it won't make those graphic fragmentation-type wounds, it'd be fine if you don't have anything else. Better Wolf than nothing, I guess. Just keep in mind that, to my knowledge, M193 and M855 have had some stopping issues past their fragmentation ranges, and I would not want to use non-fragmenting FMJ ammo at close ranges. |
| If you mean .223 it won't fragment so it's certainly inferior to the military ammo-while you are certainly better off with other kinds of ammo, I don't think anyone you shoot is going to gigle and yell "Ha didn't fragment!" when you shoot them at the distances inside a residence. |
Nobody gets "knocked down" by any normal rifle ammo-they fall over upon being wounded or killed sometimes but if the bullet could actually tip a man over it'd knock over the guy firing the round also. |
|
I would advise against it. If cost is an issue, buy another AR mag, load it with M193 and keep it just for home defense. $25 is a small price to pay for a feeling of security. I had the same problems with Silver Bear as Wolf so that isn't a good alternative. BTW, the Silver Bear was soft point and hollow point loads. The exit holes were as small as the entry holes. |
|
Ammo Oracle's response: Q. What about using Wolf in defensive roles? Your question has already been answered. Once again, since it's not going to fragment, it's just going to tumble. The 5.56x45mm round is NOT powerful enough to do substantial damage without fragmentation or, at the very least, expansion. We can't tell you exactly what it would do to a person, but rest assured that it would have a minimal effect. If you really had to use it in a combat situation, shot placement would be more critical than ever. |
Well, it entirely depends on shot placement. Like every high velocity bullet, it's gonna create a large temporary wound channel. If this occurs in inelastic organs such as the liver, then it'll do quite a bit of damage (but obviously not as much as a better round). Otherwise, it'll tumble and make a wound channel similar in shape to this (please ignore the dimensions...wrong caliber and I don't have the Wolf gel photos online ATM)  Will it be effective? Yes, depending on shot placement. Would I risk my own butt with it when I could grab some 75gr BH? Heck no. Would I grab it over a pistol? In a heartbeat. |
I'm no expert on this stuff and while I agree that it won't cause the kind of wound usgi ammo would cause if it fragments, it's still going to do more than have "a minimal effect" I would bet it's still make a much more dramatic wound than a pistol, hell with modern medical care something like 80+ of victims of pistol shots live, I think for rifles it's more like 10% |
|
There have been reports that 5.45 was an effective round on unarmored targets in afganistan. the 5.45x39 was designed to have an early yaw cycle and was supposedly dubbed "the poison bullet" by the muj or whatever. Both the barnaul and wolf FMJ .223 have bullets of similar construction to the 5.45, with the airspace in the tip and all, are heavier bullets, and are going faster than the 5.45. Not that I am gonna use wolf for PD or anyting, and perhaps my logig is wrong, but it seems like it is possible for this stuff to work, at least as well as the russians intended. |
No way, even very high quality defensive ammo doesn't open all the time, besides I bet the wound from any centerfire rifle is going to be, on average, more deadly than any pistol ammo, Always tough to get volunteers for to test these theories though 
|
warning, slightly OT...
i've read this so many times i have to respond just once... from a physics text: F=ma (newtons second law) or said in words: the force exerted on something is the product of mass times acceleration. at the rifle end of the situation, the bullet is accelerated over a long distance, say 16 to 20 inches to cover the two most popular AR15 barrel lengths. at the chamber, the projectile is stationary. at the muzzle, the projectile is traveling about 3100-3200 fps. at the target end of the situation, the bullet is decelerated over a shorter distance, perhaps as short as 6-8 inches if tough flesh/bone is hit. or, it could be as little as 1 inch if the projectile hits a ballistic plate, accounting for a bit of inelastic deformation of the plate and allowance for it to more intimately press against the body of the wearer. hence, just prior to hitting the plate, the projectile has a velocity of 3000fps. a very short distance (and time) later, it is stationary. recall that acceleration is the time rate of change of velocity. in contrast to the rifle barrel situation, the absolute magnitude of the deceleration (negative acceleration) is much higher in the shorter distance. and, correspondingly, the F (force) is higher -- again refer to the equation given above: we hold m constant; if a goes up, then F goes up. the situation is somewhat analogous to trying to catch a thrown egg. obviously it can be done without making a omlette, but you have to provide enough give at the receiving end (read: limit the deceleration) otherwise you'll end up with enough force to crack the eggshell. note that i'm not saying a 5.56mm 55gr projectile at 3000-3200fps can knock someone down. all i am saying is that the force at your shoulder and at the receiving end may not be the same -- although conservation of momentum is observed, the time in whch the impulse is delivered differs. ar-jedi |
|
You'll have to forgive my lack of technical expertise. I have no graphs, statistics or pictorial aids to offer. You could try this though. 1. Go to your nearest gun range. 2. Fire 6 or 8 rounds of Wolf through a 4 x 4 post. 3. Inspect the damage. 3. Ask yourself, "What would that do to a burglar intend on doing me harm?" No special gelatin required. Makes the point nicely. have With any 5.56 ammo, it is hell on wheels in a close quarters situation. hing Go with the most effective round you have availble. If you just heard a guy climbing through your window and realized you don't have time to run to the neighborhood XM193 emporium...anything that feeds, fires and extracts reliably is good. If your are not sure about fragmentation, expansion and/or tumbling...just pull the trigger 5 or 6 more times...real fast. That is why God invented semi-auto rifles! |
|
Brouhaha, you can only lead a horse to water... M855 is better than Wolf by a long shot, yet everyone talks about M855 in Somolia, Afganistan & Iraq and how it has so many failures to stop in a timely manner. Wolf is inferior by a wide margin in reliability, accuracy, terminal ballistics, cleanliness and just about everything else. |
| Wolf 5.56 FMJ rounds have less than diserable terminal ballistics. The jacket is very thick and velocity is very low. I dug some rounds out of a piece of firewood and the bullets flattened and folded in half. With the exception of 5.45 and 7.62 M43, Wolf is garbage and I refuse to use it any of my expensive guns. For not much more, you can find domestic or NATO surplus rounds for practice with a possible defensive connotation. The M855 is a very lethal and effective round when used inside its velocity/fragmentation envelope. In Somalia and Afghanistan, you had SpecOps guys using short barreld rifles 10.5,11.5 and 14.5 inch barrels don't allow for much fragmentation range. Below the assigned velocity, you essentially have a .22 mag. Also consider that in both occasions we were fighting Zealots, some high on Cot whom probably could have sustained hits from a 25 mike-mike. M855 is an effective round when used inside of its design evelope. |
<-- This is your brain on Wolf for self defense.
I'll remember that next time I'm attacked by an army of Fence posts. Dammage to wood /= Dammage to flesh. Use water if you don't have access to Gel. However Brouhaha and Tatjana did a Gel test on Wolf and shared their results with us. For those of you with access to the Archives here it is: (archive.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=135926) |
Unfortunately, in the board transition to the new format (2 years ago?) this thread was utterly destroyed. It had been multiple pages long and with a ton of pictures. They're all gone now. I don't know if it can be resurrected. 
|
Screw all that Science and reaserch crap, I'm gonna load up on .22LR and save a bundle. I can shoot a fence post with it!! 
|
 I was going to say the same thing. A 22 LR will kill if the shot is put into the right place. Wolf will kill also. If it was the only thing there, (and that would never be the situation) I would use it in a pinch. Same goes with my 10/22. In a pinch, it's better then nothin, but if you have time to plan for an encounter, spend some jack and get some good quality ammo. Oh, and FWIW, I would choose wolf 223 over a high quality handgun round any day. That's just my opinion and I know everyone's got one  .
|
|
"I'll remember that next time I'm attacked by an army of Fence posts. Dammage to wood /= Dammage to flesh. Use water if you don't have access to Gel." *************************************************************** Hey genius, have you tried the 4 x 4 test? ...thought not.he You don't need gel of any kind to answer the question. You don't need graphs. You don't need pictures. It's not rocket science. Shoot a 4 x 4 post 6 or 8 times. View the results and get back to me. It's all the study you are going to need. Can you handle that? 5.56 might be better than any handgun ammo. I just can't fit a folding Mini-14 in my night stand. hat Yes, that's correct, I said "Wolf". Wolf? Yes, Wolf. "Any" means any. Including Wolf. Remember, keep pulling the trigger. Multiple hits make for a safe and happy home owner. hat You may not have spotted it because it was camoflauged as psuedo-scientific-phoney-baloney wannabe BULListics. BTW, all you 'experts', I am starting 'The List' for those of you willing to put your money where your mouth is. I will designate a range where all of you can meet. Say 10:00AM sharp? Each of you will be issued 6 rounds of the hated Wolf ammo. You will then proceed to shoot each other 6 times in the torso with the harmless Wolf ammo. (Is the 4 x 4 test making a little more sense now?) Services for the deceased will be held at 10:01. |
 Somebody get DockGKR, he can save a ton of money with this profound new "4X4 of truth" |
A bad guys day will certainly be ruined by a round or two of Wolf in the chest cavity, but since it may take several minutes to incapacitate him he can still ruin yours too. |
|
O.K. Looks like we have 1 more for 'The List'. he You can inflict several of the same wounds or grazing wounds with the new high tech WhizBang2000 ammo and the same would be true. (In the movies, people die instantaneously. 'Cause it's the movies.) Shot placement is key. (Not shot put. Shot placement) hot As Forrest Gump's poor departed old mother used to say, "Wound effects are like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're going to get." That's why I favor the 'keep pulling the trigger' approach to home safety.Hint: |
There I was, minding my own business making Uruk-hai warriors at the Isengard tower. All of a sudden, without provocation, I was beseiged by a hundred or more fearsome creatures. After being shown the incredible merits of a 4x4 test from Oswald2001, I knew what must be done. I ran inside the tower and grabbed my uber-leet M4 loaded to the max with the bestest 4x4 mangling rounds available to me: 62gr Wolf. I went to work on the creatures, slaying them all...saving the tower of Isengard and my master, Saruman. Long live the white wizard! I took a photo of the attackers, so you can see what I was up against. They didn't stand a chance. 
|
BAHAHAHAHAHA
Another 2005 member - figures.
|
hinking.gif Another Elitist Snob - figures. Alright now, that makes 2 more for 'The List'. hat (Once again, a suitable piece of 4 x 4 can usually obtained free of charge as scrap lumber from most any construction site.) "The truth shall make you free." Go 'head. Take the 4 x 4 test. Remember, there is no shame in recognizing you are an Elitist Snob. The shame is in remaining one. |
I think someone has inhaled too much Wolf.  Forest, you are fighting against the laws of evolution and you will not win. Like I told Brouhaha, you can only lead a horse to water. If he wants voluntarily handicap himself and be the next Darwin poster child, let him. The laws of evolution demand it. Oswald2001, you have a lot to learn about fighting and terminal ballistics. So much so I don't even know where to begin, so I'll try to make this very brief. In a heated, dynamic fight you'll probably be lucky to get A HIT let alone 5 to 6 consecutively. A single Hornady 75gr round will as much soft tissue damage as 5 rounds of Wolf. In a 30 round mag you have the equivalent of something like 6 rounds of Hornady TAP 75gr in terms of soft tissue damage potential and it's going to take you a hell of a lot longer to dish it out. |
|
That makes 3 more for "The List". he My, my, we are just a bit grumpy today. Aren't we? Perhaps a nap? |
|
Well, here's the problem with that. With your nose stuck so far up in the air, your aim will be waaaaay off. You'll most likely get zapped because of it. Elitist Snobs are known to be horrible shots due to the nose-in-the-air handicap factor. Can't hit a thing, really. Say it loud! Say it proud! "My name is (fill in the blank) and I am an Elitist Snob." There is freedom after that, brother. You can't tackle a problem unless you admit you have a problem. |
My .22LR makes some impressive holes in wooden posts. I still wouldn't trust it against a human. Wood is pretty soft and splinters easily...pretty different than human flesh/organs. I can't believe you won't just listen to all these people. |
|
Wait. You mean there is a difference between wood and living human flesh? No kidding! Did anybody else here know that? Don't that beat all? I guess I will have to conduct all future research on living human flesh. Could be problematic. have |
|
"Speak wisdom to a fool and he will call you a fool." We have #5! hoot (And, of course, you know about getting a scrap piece of 4 x 4 for free from a construction site. Right?) |
Tearing up wood means NOTHING. We're all well aware that Wolf will poke holes in you. After all, you are using a high-powered rifle. There are just much better options out there than a non-fragmenting FMJ design. What could be worse? And as far as this list thing you have going is concerned, having people kill each other with Wolf won't prove anything. How about if we all have XM193, and you can fight us off with your wonderful Wolf ammo? (How's that for a smiley?) |
Now, now. It's just not possible to get on 'The List' twice. So quit trying! It's not fair to the others.  I have clearly stated this several times. Any. Any. Any. Any...5.56 which feeds, fires and extracts reliably will most certainly ruin a bad guys day. This includes the oh-so-precious XM193. (Remember the 'any' part?) BTW, you don't want to use any of that nasty stuff on me 'cause I am not a bad guy. I have a white hat. (Well, it's currently at the cleaners. I think it's more precise to say that I own a white hat.)  So, I have never disputed the power of the almost supernatural XM193. Because I am not an Elitist Snob. (Elitist Snobism is the issue here. Isn't it?) I freely admit XM193 is a clear and present danger. Obviously I don't need to be on 'The List'. If Wolf is so wimpy, underpowered and useless, why are you afraid? I say, step up. Step up to 'The List'.  The question asked was "I know Wolf doesnt frag, but what kind of knock down power would it have?" No one asked about any other type or brand of ammo. Just the performance of the Wolf brand. Part I: "Tearing up wood means NOTHING. We're all well aware that Wolf will poke holes in you. After all, you are using a high-powered rifle. " There is an inherent discrepancy here. It does mean SOMETHING. As you point out "you are using a high-powered rifle." Bingo! This fact will be absolutey unquestioned after you fire 6 or eight rounds through a 4 x 4. Yes! You got it! That is the sole purpose of the 4 x 4 test! Finally! Somebody got it! (Well, actually, that 'somebody' is me.) When you see the results of 6 or 8 rounds on a piece of 4 x 4, you know you are dealing with a high powered rifle. Simple, isn't it? (Don't need no gel.) Just a simple demonstration that you are indeed dealing with a high powered rifle. If Wolf will do that to a piece of wood, it is obvious it can't do a person any good. The 4 x 4 demonstration should answer his question more quickly and directly than all of the so-called expert BULListics speak. As to exactly what would happen...who knows? No one. Depends on a lot of factors. Part II: "There are just much better options out there than a non-fragmenting FMJ design. What could be worse?" He didn't ask that. That was not the question. The question was hijacked by the Elitist Snobs. The responses were Elitist Snobism championing their favorite TAP, SNAP, ZAP, BAP, XM139... Again, that wasn't even asked. |
Just added my to the list with nothing more said. You are a complete idiot based on your posts. |
|
Not grumpy at all, to the contrary I've already got my lawn chair and a big bowl of popcorn and I'm just sitting back watching you make a boob of yourself for my amusement. I'm not the type to get worked up about what anonymous people behind a PC says on forum. I really couldn't care less what you use or what you say or how many times you say it. Been trying to tell everyone else to relax and enjoy this thread for comic relief as much as I have! It's only a matter of time before it is locked but my hopes are the mods will let this go on a bit longer! 
|
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Wolf wound potential? (Page 1 of 2)
AR Sponsor