Hi everyone!  FNG here.  I don’t own any AR-15’s yet but I hope to build my first one pretty soon.  I know I’m going to have some silly new guy questions along the way that hopefully some of you knowledgeable old salts won’t mind answering.  First of all I would like to know why AR-15 parts are so expensive.  I went to a gun show yesterday and found these Stag Arms stripped lower receivers selling for $90.  

http://www.rbprecision.com/58bef130.jpg

That seemed like a pretty good deal since I’ve heard that they are of great quality and I found comparable Bushmaster and DPMS stripped lowers selling for over $100.

But when you put it into context its not really a good deal at all to pay $90 for a single, small aluminum part.  I was at Home Depot the other day and saw this bench top drill press selling for $90, the same price as the receiver.

http://imagex.homedepot.com/f/248/13340/7d/www.homedepot.com/cmc_upload/HDUS/EN_US/asset/images/eplus/162515_4.jpg

I don’t know that much about manufacturing, but I bet it probably takes over 10x the amount of material and labor to build the drill press than it does to build the receiver.

Of course this may not be an apples to apples comparison since a receiver is the serialized, regulated part of a firearm and there are probably government imposed fees and taxes associated with manufacturing them that I don’t know about.  So let’s take a look at some of the non-serialized parts.

I saw this flip-up front sight assembly selling on Yankee Hill’s web site for $116,

http://yankeehill.bizland.com/store/media/YHM-9835A.jpg

and the middle free-float tube in the picture selling for $95….

http://yankeehill.bizland.com/store/media/Custom_Forearms.jpg

WHAT THE F%#&!?!  Is there something I’m missing?  To me it seems outright ridiculous that one company can build and sell a whole drill press for less than the price that it takes another company to build and sell a single free float tube.  It seems like the people that are building the drill presses should retool and start making free float tubes.  They could make a killing.

I guess you could argue that the drill presses are built overseas with cheap foreign labor and the AR-15 parts are built right here in the good old USA and are therefore better quality.  But to me “made in the USA” has never meant “made better”.  I’ll take my Nissan Titan over any half ton Ford, Chevy, or Dodge truck any day of the week.  I’ll also take any Sony electronic product over anything American made as well.  It’s not that I’m not patriotic, it’s just that I don’t like being screwed.  If an American auto manufacturer wants my business then they need to build a better product.

But back to the subject… I’ve been comparing the “whole” drill press to single parts of the rifle.  When you put all the different parts together you come out with a rifle that is well over 6x the cost of the drill press.  Of course the rifle may be a little more precise instrument and designed to last a little longer, but not enough to justify 6x the cost in my mind.  So what is it?  Do AR-15 parts really cost more to produce, or are AR-15 enthusiasts all suckers that are willing to spend an absorbent amount of money on their hobby?

If the latter is true then it seems like a guy could set up a machine shop and produce quality AR-15 parts and accessories then sell them for 5 to 10 percent less than the competition and make out like a bandit.  Hell I may just do that.  Never mind.  Forget you ever read this post.

Let the storm begin....

Because people are willing to pay it.  You could use your analogy with just about any industry.

There is no compairing a firearm to a drill press... A drill press has no resale value, but firearms do...

You need to shop around to get good deals on AR parts, they are out there, you just need to find them...

I consider building and buying AR's as investments, although a drill press is a tool that can assist one to make money, it wont hold its value like a firearm will...  

You get what you pay for.  A higher end drill press will cost much more than that.  You have to look at what that drill press can do compared to it's more expensive buddies.  what size motor does it have?  RPM?  What size bit will it hold?

You can consider an Airsoft AR-15 an AR-15 if you would like.  they cost about 75 dollars.  It shoots plastic BB's.  Or you can get a lower end AR-15 for about 600 dollars.

The better made parts will cost more simply because their design is proven to function near flawlesly.  A 90 dollar drill press might last 6 months if used a lot.  It could overheat, or have a quality control issue.  A 300 dollar drill press will more than likely be better simply because the manufacturer knows how to make a better product, and that's why the high price.  They all drill holes, some just do a better job than others.

Just like an Airsoft AR-15, it shoots, but are you going to take it to battle?

Maybe this doesn't make much sense, I tried...lol!!!

Quoted: There is no compairing a firearm to a drill press... A drill press has no resale value, but firearms do... You need to shop around to get good deals on AR parts, they are out there, you just need to find them... I consider building and buying AR's as investments, although a drill press is a tool that can assist one to make money, it wont hold its value like a firearm will...

Well, okay.  Good point, I guess.  I guess that explains why people are willing to pay more for firearms, but why aren't manufacturers trying to out do the compatition by selling for less?

Because they are all made in US. A Springfield M1A1 costs$1100 and a Norinco M14 costs $400 in canada. When they allow Chinese firearms again, a Norinco AR may be only $400. Norinco did make ARs at a time and may make again.

Quoted: Quoted: There is no compairing a firearm to a drill press... A drill press has no resale value, but firearms do... You need to shop around to get good deals on AR parts, they are out there, you just need to find them... I consider building and buying AR's as investments, although a drill press is a tool that can assist one to make money, it wont hold its value like a firearm will...   Well, okay.  Good point, I guess.  I guess that explains why people are willing to pay more for firearms, but why aren't manufacturers trying to out do the compatition by selling for less?

because there is more money to be made by each company if they don't compete.  if i can build a product for 5 dollars and sell it for 100, why sell it for 10 just to ruin everyone elses business.  they are in business to make money.  Most will not compete simply because there is no reason to start war with each other.  They all are making good money.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: There is no compairing a firearm to a drill press... A drill press has no resale value, but firearms do... You need to shop around to get good deals on AR parts, they are out there, you just need to find them... I consider building and buying AR's as investments, although a drill press is a tool that can assist one to make money, it wont hold its value like a firearm will...   Well, okay.  Good point, I guess.  I guess that explains why people are willing to pay more for firearms, but why aren't manufacturers trying to out do the compatition by selling for less? because there is more money to be made by each company if they don't compete.  if i can build a product for 5 dollars and sell it for 100, why sell it for 10 just to ruin everyone elses business.  they are in business to make money.  Most will not compete simply because there is no reason to start war with each other.  They all are making good money.

I agree

Quoted: You get what you pay for.  A higher end drill press will cost much more than that.  You have to look at what that drill press can do compared to it's more expensive buddies.  what size motor does it have?  RPM?  What size bit will it hold? You can consider an Airsoft AR-15 an AR-15 if you would like.  they cost about 75 dollars.  It shoots plastic BB's.  Or you can get a lower end AR-15 for about 600 dollars. The better made parts will cost more simply because their design is proven to function near flawlesly.  A 90 dollar drill press might last 6 months if used a lot.  It could overheat, or have a quality control issue.  A 300 dollar drill press will more than likely be better simply because the manufacturer knows how to make a better product, and that's why the high price.  They all drill holes, some just do a better job than others. Just like an Airsoft AR-15, it shoots, but are you going to take it to battle? Maybe this doesn't make much sense, I tried...lol!!!hr

I think I missed your point completely, or maybe you missed mine.  A $300 drill press cetainly may be a top of the line, better qualitly product over a $90 one, but it is still half the price of an AR-15, and still takes more labor and material to build.  

99% of manufacteres and especially Dealers are HUGE RIP-OFFS

Wow...what a way to begin your "career" at AR15.com.  

I can't answer every question, but will make an attempt to address your concerns.  

Yes, precision machined (to within thousandths of an inch), forged, hard anodized quality AR parts are expensive.  The stag lower you mention is one of the best mfg. available.  That being said, if you want to go cheaper than by all means buy a Hesse or Vulcan lower and may you have the best of luck.

The old cliche' "you get what you pay for" applies to everything firearms related and I cannot stress that enough.  Only a rich man can afford cheap rifle parts.  

A flip up sight must be machined to extremely tight tolerances due to the fact that any looseness translates to a wandering zero.  In layman's terms: if it's loose, the zero you labored to achieve will not be repeatable if you bump the sight.  If it's too expensive for you than buy a standard front sight base.  

A fore end that wobbles doesn't lend itself well to optics mounting.  Once again, you get what you pay for.  Most index on the barrel nut which requires, again, close tolerances so the free float tube doesn't torque from side to side with a verical fore grip and more importantly your rails are correctly aligned (horizontal a vertically).

On the lighter side.  No one is forcing you to purchase an AR.  I think you'd be better suited with a nice mini-14, Ak variant (romanian or chinese), or perhaps a 10/22.  Red Rider makes a pretty nice bb gun as well....25 bucks from Wal-Mart last time I checked.

Machine work.

All that crap isn't just stamped out like the sheet steel quarter panel on your Nissan (btw, look at your VIN number. It'll have a "1" at the beginning of it. That truck is made in the USA)

Most AR parts try to follow US Gubment specifications and therefore use more expensive materials and more expensive methods of maufacturing (i.e. Mil-spec aluminum alloys and barrel steels and forged parts over cast parts).

You get what you pay for. CNC machines aren't cheap and the operators don't work for free either.

I would rather pay these prices to buy American. I don't want any foreign parts on my AR's and I'm happy to pay to make it so. This all coming from a college sophomore that is strapped for cash.

YMMV

WIZZO

Quoted: 99% of manufacteres and especially Dealers are HUGE RIP-OFFS

I agree.  That's what I'm trying to say.

Quoted: Quoted: You get what you pay for.  A higher end drill press will cost much more than that.  You have to look at what that drill press can do compared to it's more expensive buddies.  what size motor does it have?  RPM?  What size bit will it hold? You can consider an Airsoft AR-15 an AR-15 if you would like.  they cost about 75 dollars.  It shoots plastic BB's.  Or you can get a lower end AR-15 for about 600 dollars. The better made parts will cost more simply because their design is proven to function near flawlesly.  A 90 dollar drill press might last 6 months if used a lot.  It could overheat, or have a quality control issue.  A 300 dollar drill press will more than likely be better simply because the manufacturer knows how to make a better product, and that's why the high price.  They all drill holes, some just do a better job than others. Just like an Airsoft AR-15, it shoots, but are you going to take it to battle? Maybe this doesn't make much sense, I tried...lol!!! I think I missed your point completely, or maybe you missed mine.  A $300 drill press cetainly may be a top of the line, better qualitly product over a $90 one, but it is still half the price of an AR-15, and still deon't take as much labor and material to build.

what about the 75 dollar airsoft?  its cheaper tahn you drill press.  I'm sure if i looked hard enough i could find a drill press that is a few thousand dollars, i just didn't feel like going that far... I kinda felt I didn't really make a good enough point, that's why i put i tried at the end.  Someoen a little smarter than will be able to explain it better.  It's my "off" day...

Quoted: Quoted: 99% of manufacteres and especially Dealers are HUGE RIP-OFFS I agree.  That's what I'm trying to say.

How bout you look into making your own Ar reciever, I bet you spent at least 3 times as much money making your own reciever than buying one.

How bout you look into making your own Ar reciever, I bet you spent at least 3 times as much money making your own reciever than buying one.

Yeah, you're probably right when we're talking about one.  But I bet if I made thousands like the other companies do it would start evening out, no, it would more than even out.  I would be able to sell them for less than what the what the other companys do and make more $$$.

Lets see...

China labor rate $0.50 an hour.
American labor rate $20.00+ an hour, add in benefits $30.00 an hour.

If your drill was made in the USA what do you think it would cost then.

Then again I guess we should all buy foreign made it's cheaper. We don't need good paying jobs in America the gov will take care of us all.

Yeah, but you can't kill someone with a drill!!!

Oh, wait, I guess you could



Ewwwwww  

Nevermind

It's Bush's fault.

Quoted: How bout you look into making your own Ar reciever, I bet you spent at least 3 times as much money making your own reciever than buying one. Yeah, you're probably right when we're talking about one.  But I bet if I made thousands like the other companies do it would start evening out, no, it would more than even out.  I would be able to sell them for less than what the what the other companys do and make more $$$.

That sounds like the start of a business plan.  Write it up nicely then go see your banker for a loan to start up the business.  Post pics when you have the first prototype built.    

Quoted: Yes, precision machined (to within thousandths of an inch), forged, hard anodized quality AR parts are expensive.  The stag lower you mention is one of the best mfg. available.  That being said, if you want to go cheaper than by all means buy a Hesse or Vulcan lower and may you have the best of luck. The old cliche' "you get what you pay for" applies to everything firearms related and I cannot stress that enough.  Only a rich man can afford cheap rifle parts.   A flip up sight must be machined to extremely tight tolerances due to the fact that any looseness translates to a wandering zero.  In layman's terms: if it's loose, the zero you labored to achieve will not be repeatable if you bump the sight.  If it's too expensive for you than buy a standard front sight base.   A fore end that wobbles doesn't lend itself well to optics mounting.  Once again, you get what you pay for.  Most index on the barrel nut which requires, again, close tolerances so the free float tube doesn't torque from side to side with a verical fore grip and more importantly your rails are correctly aligned (horizontal a vertically).

I really don't think that AR-15 parts are precision machined enough to cost that much extra.  maybe twice as much as the drill press, but not 6x as much.  Sorry to burst everyone's bubble.  Maybe when you all start realizing that your getting screwed the prices will start going down and you will be able to afford a lot more toys.

Quoted: How bout you look into making your own Ar reciever, I bet you spent at least 3 times as much money making your own reciever than buying one. Yeah, you're probably right when we're talking about one.  But I bet if I made thousands like the other companies do it would start evening out, no, it would more than even out.  I would be able to sell them for less than what the what the other companys do and make more $$$.

Okay, you obviously understand economy of scale, so why is it so hard for you to understand.  A precision milled part made by well paid workers (in the US with it's high taxes) at rates of a few thousand a year will be more expensive than a loose tolerance drill press made by veritable slave labor in China at rates of a couple hundred thousand a year.

Quoted: 99% of manufacteres and especially Dealers are HUGE RIP-OFFS

Denny, I am a 19 year old who know enough about business to be pissed off here.

Dealers don't make squat.  They have to pay all of their bills of of small margins.  Dennys 10-30 percent is a little optimistic for some companies/parts of the country.

So lets say they can buy a multi million dollar piece of land, and through up a 50,000 dollar building, add 100,000 dollars in tooling, hire 20 people for 40 dollars an hour, including benefits, and then take aluminum, one of the more expensive materials, and machine it into an AR.  Then ass soon as they are done htey can sell it to a distributor or dealer at dealer cost.  At some point you have to consider the 11% Federal Excise Tax.  And then the dealer adds his markup, and whatever local taxes, and sells it to you.

That help?

The receiver was made in America with all associated costs.  The drill press was made in China.

You do the math, Mr. Wizzard.

Quoted: Dealers are HUGE RIP-OFFS

mark up of 100% + from the manufacteres

Just email a dealer and ask where they get their parts from, they will all tell you from a Gov. Manufacturer.
But they won't specify say who, and go on to tell you for confidently reasons they can not disclose their supply sources.

?

So lets say they can buy a multi million dollar piece of land, and through up a 50,000 dollar building, add 100,000 dollars in tooling, hire 20 people for 40 dollars an hour, including benefits...

Who says you need all that to start a manufacturing operation?

Quoted: Who says you need all that to start a manufacturing operation?

All I can say is: start producing your own lowers with as good a quality as the $90 ones and sell them here on Arfcom for less than that.

Quoted: So lets say they can buy a multi million dollar piece of land, and through up a 50,000 dollar building, add 100,000 dollars in tooling, hire 20 people for 40 dollars an hour, including benefits... Who says you need all that to start a manufacturing operation?

I'm sorry, I guess I'll just use my chinese drill press that I got for 50 bucks at a garage sale.

I believe the main reason AR receivers, YHM sights, etc. APPEAR to be overpriced is simply basic economics - supply and demand. What percentage of the American population is buying AR receivers and YHM sights? 1%? 0.1%? Compare that to the percentage of the population buying cell phones - 80% maybe? If AR15 parts are ever in demand on par with cell phones (don't hold your breath), you can bet your sweet ass the prices will come down!  

Quoted: How bout you look into making your own Ar reciever, I bet you spent at least 3 times as much money making your own reciever than buying one. Yeah, you're probably right when we're talking about one.  But I bet if I made thousands like the other companies do it would start evening out, no, it would more than even out.  I would be able to sell them for less than what the what the other companys do and make more $$$.

Besides the cost of materials and labor, you'll have to pay the cost of dealing with the government (license, record keeping, etc) and liability insurance (with liability being one of the main attacks from the Brady Bunch, in recent years).  Until you get into a high volume, you just aren't likely to be able to turn out something at a low unit cost.

I spent a few semesters in the machineshop, as part of my Industrial Studies minor.  I've run both horizontal and vertical mills, lathes, and surface grinders.  A while back, I finally spent over $1000 on a *cheap* mill (it wouldn't hold up long for production work, but it'll do for hobby work), then I shelled out more money for 3-axis DRO, and I've still got to buy more expensive stuff before I can make anything with it.  The lathe will probably cost about twice what the mill cost, and this is just buying cheap junk to play with, not building a shop to manufacture a marketable product.

It’s a buyers market.

Don’t believe me just check the EE forum under new ar parts.

Don’t buy online using the shopping basket.

Email your part request to a vendor and see what kind of discount they can give you.

If you don't like the answer you get move on to the next.

Remember it is your hard earned money!

And if all else fails there is always Bushmaster!

If profit margins were that low they would have gone in to some other business.

Quoted: If profit margins were that low they would have gone in to some other business.

Wrong.  Just plain wrong.  There are plenty of people who work for peanuts to do what they love.  These guys would make a hell of of a lot more selling auto parts or something.

Quoted: Quoted: If profit margins were that low they would have gone in to some other business. Wrong.  Just plain wrong.  There are plenty of people who work for peanuts to do what they love.  These guys would make a hell of of a lot more selling auto parts or something.

So for some it is just a hobby then.... Not a business, who?

2nd rule in business never make you hobby a business unless you are willing to take a loss.  And don’t quit your day job!

Besides the cost of materials and labor, you'll have to pay the cost of dealing with the government (license, record keeping, etc) and liability insurance (with liability being one of the main attacks from the Brady Bunch, in recent years)...

Good point.  So lets say someone skips all that by making just the sights and free float tubes I talked about.  And they didn't build any buildings or bought any land, they just set up shop in the buildings they already owned and bought their machinery used so they didn't have to pay as much for it.  Wouldn't be long until they were back in the black.

Anyway, I didn't mean to piss so many people off, just wanted to know why and so far I haven't heard any good reasons.  I'm surprised there's not more people that are on my side.  I think someone would have to be F-ed in the head to believe they were getting a good deal by paying more for a free float tube then for a low end bench top drill press.  But I guess you all like living with your delusions.

Quoted: I'm surprised there's not more people that are on my side.

But then again maybe the people who would be don't care about AR-15's or don't participate in this forum.  Maybe more people would if it wasn't such a racket.

Quoted: Quoted: Dealers are HUGE RIP-OFFS mark up of 100% + from the manufacteres Just email a dealer and ask where they get their parts from, they will all tell you from a Gov. Manufacturer. But they won't specify say who, and go on to tell you for confidently reasons they can not disclose their supply sources.

OK, if they do make 50% margins on a $900 gun, that is $450/gun profit.  How many guns does it take to pay the bills every month?  Rent is what, $1,200/mo?  Overhead - 3 people @ $15/hr ($27 including taxes, benefits) gives ~$14K/mo.  Got to eat yourself and your the boss, another $3500, to keep you alive before profit taking.  At this rate it takes ~ 42 guns before you make a profit , this is before electricity, property insurance, any freight that may be required, goodwill, etc....  You have to AVERAGE over 10 guns EVERY week before you hit even.  How do the margins sound now??

Quoted: Besides the cost of materials and labor, you'll have to pay the cost of dealing with the government (license, record keeping, etc) and liability insurance (with liability being one of the main attacks from the Brady Bunch, in recent years)... Good point.  So lets say someone skips all that by making just the sights and free float tubes I talked about.  And they didn't build any buildings or bought any land, they just set up shop in the buildings they already owned and bought their machinery used so they didn't have to pay as much for it.  Wouldn't be long until they were back in the black. Anyway, I didn't mean to piss so many people off, just wanted to know why and so far I haven't heard any good reasons.  I'm surprised there's not more people that are on my side.  I think someone would have to be F-ed in the head to believe they were getting a good deal by paying more for a free float tube then for a low end bench top drill press.  But I guess you all like living with your delusions.

Get a clue

You don't understand Economics.

You assume that these companies are making thousands of thousands of these, and that in cost the same to make it as some POS cast iron chinese drill dress. Most of the 4rail free float tubes are made of billet alum alloy, just not soda can alum. but Aircraft Quality 7000 T6 alum. made on a $15000 machine at a rate of 1 unit every 30mins or so, then finished, packed and shipped. Its damn amazing that a dealer can even make money on a $200 tube, let alone the manufacture.

WE IF IT'S CAPS YA WANT HERE YA GO!!! Dealers are not ripping anyone off.  What kind of profit margin do you two genius' think we DEALERS make.  This ain't the fuckin' jewelry business ya know.  The profit margins range from 10 to 30 percent before OVERHEAD.   Due to your firm grasp of business and economics I am will to bet neither of you is over 21 Trust me I don't want either of you two for customers.  (RANT OFF) Dennyhr

Well, "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." Albert Einstein said that.

It's the damn BRD.

With so many addicts we are lucky prices are not even higher.

Ammo is what's getting expensive.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If profit margins were that low they would have gone in to some other business. Wrong.  Just plain wrong.  There are plenty of people who work for peanuts to do what they love.  These guys would make a hell of of a lot more selling auto parts or something. So for some it is just a hobby then.... Not a business, who? 2nd rule in business never make you hobby a business unless you are willing to take a loss.  And don’t quit your day job!

Sounds like you have a boring job that you hate just to make more money.  Id rather shoot myself than do something I dont have a passion for for the rest of my life.  I would hate to be you.

Quoted: Besides the cost of materials and labor, you'll have to pay the cost of dealing with the government (license, record keeping, etc) and liability insurance (with liability being one of the main attacks from the Brady Bunch, in recent years)... Good point.  So lets say someone skips all that by making just the sights and free float tubes I talked about.  And they didn't build any buildings or bought any land, they just set up shop in the buildings they already owned and bought their machinery used so they didn't have to pay as much for it.  Wouldn't be long until they were back in the black. Anyway, I didn't mean to piss so many people off, just wanted to know why and so far I haven't heard any good reasons.  I'm surprised there's not more people that are on my side.  I think someone would have to be F-ed in the head to believe they were getting a good deal by paying more for a free float tube then for a low end bench top drill press.  But I guess you all like living with your delusions.

Ever go to a machineshop and get a quote on having something made?  The parts you are talking about, in the quantities you would be able to sell, wouldn't be enough to keep a shop going full-time for long.  You'd either have to contract it out, expand your product line to keep your shop busy (do a production run of one item, setup your machines for another product, do a production run of the next item, setup your machines for another product, do a production run...), or just accept that your shop will only operate on a part-time basis and take much longer to pay for itself.

If you think AR parts are expensive, take a look at the prices for Beechcraft parts.  Then wait around at an airport long enough to see a few Baron owners drive up in their $70,000+ cars, walk into the maintenance shop, then start screaming bloody murder over the bill for their annual.  

He may as well of asked why is gas so expensive...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If profit margins were that low they would have gone in to some other business. Wrong.  Just plain wrong.  There are plenty of people who work for peanuts to do what they love.  These guys would make a hell of of a lot more selling auto parts or something. So for some it is just a hobby then.... Not a business, who? 2nd rule in business never make you hobby a business unless you are willing to take a loss.  And don’t quit your day job! Sounds like you have a boring job that you hate just to make more money.  Id rather shoot myself than do something I dont have a passion for for the rest of my life.  I would hate to be you.

No, I think you would like being me.
Retired at the age of 42.
Lots of time to play on the internet and go shooting on my own 30 acres of land.
But 1st you have got to do 24 years of service with the United States Marine Corps.
Might be too much for some?

Quoted: Well, "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." Albert Einstein said that. And just what makes your arrogant ass a "great spirit".  I just see a jerk that doesn't know squat about what he is talking about Denny

Why do you post in this thread?
All you will end up doing is shooting your self in the foot.

Not that any thing you have posted is wrong, but these threads are for the buyer to vent.

Take some advice from legal-transfers just let it go…
He never posst out side of the EE forum unless some thing it is directly at him (good and bad).

The site should give you vendors a second account that show list you as a team member
not Industry Partner.

Quoted: But 1st you have got to do 24 years of service with the United States Marine Corps. Might be too much for some?

 The Corps may have taught you a lot of things, but economics was not one of them.