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Posted: 3/11/2014 7:24:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/17/2014 6:59:23 PM EDT by stre-tch]
Going to pick one up for a suppressed upper.

Which bcg coating is better? NiB, NP3, or nitrocarborizing

Do they really make a big difference over the phosphate?


Edited to add second question about enhanced BCG or Bolts (see page 2)
Link Posted: 3/11/2014 7:33:26 AM EDT
Yes, they do make a big difference when it comes time for clean-up.

I have both NiB and Hardchromed. I like the Yng Mfg HardChrome the best, it is easier to clean than even the NiB and it doesnt get "soft" when heated up. The NiB has been known to heat up and even maybe flake (probably due to bad processing or QC, i have no idea).

The both clean up better than Phosphate but the NiB tends to "Stain" and is harder to make show room perfect (if that is your sort of thing).

You cant go wrong with any of them, but I prefer hardchrome, anything other than phosphate is also "slicker" and seems to have less friction (seat of the pants feel)
Link Posted: 3/11/2014 8:35:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2014 8:36:27 AM EDT by TakeDown]
I have no experience with the other 2, but I have a 6920 w/ Robar NP3 BCG. I've used NP3 before on other parts as well and they are super easy to clean. With no oil or lube on them they already have a 'slick' feel to them. I literally just use a paper towel to wipe the crud off. You might have to use solvents since you're shooting suppressed. If you're LE you get an additional discount. HTH
Link Posted: 3/11/2014 9:03:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2014 9:04:16 AM EDT by ewetstone]
Definitely go with Black Nitride....H&M Metal Processing is one of the best. BTW it is not a coating...it is a metal conversion process.

www.blacknitride.com
Link Posted: 3/11/2014 9:41:09 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ewetstone:
Definitely go with Black Nitride....H&M Metal Processing is one of the best. BTW it is not a coating...it is a metal conversion process.

www.blacknitride.com
View Quote



Do you have to send uour bolt in?
Link Posted: 3/11/2014 9:58:29 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By stre-tch:



Do you have to send uour bolt in?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By stre-tch:
Originally Posted By ewetstone:
Definitely go with Black Nitride....H&M Metal Processing is one of the best. BTW it is not a coating...it is a metal conversion process.

www.blacknitride.com



Do you have to send uour bolt in?


Well...you could have them do a bcg that you already own or just purchase a complete bcg from someone that sells them already done.
Link Posted: 3/11/2014 10:45:57 AM EDT
I lubricate my phosphate BCGs so nothing sticks to 'em. The lubricant suspends all the fouling/whatever so I can wipe it off with a rag and relube when I feel like it.

I'm not a real hig-volume shooter, but I put a little over 10K through a DD phosphated BCG a couple years ago with no cleaning. Two sets of gas rings and extractor springs for preventative maintenance and it ran fine.
Link Posted: 3/11/2014 11:26:02 AM EDT
Must be a half dozen threads on this very topic in the last few weeks.

Both nitrocarburized (melonite) or black nitride, on the one hand, and nickel-boron (NiB) are much better than parkerized (phosphate) from the standpoint of durability and rapid cleanup.

I'm running a WMD NiB-X and like it a lot. I am also running a CMMG melonite barrel on the same gun. As good as the NiB-X is, if I were to do it over, I'd probably go with black nitride because it is a little, tiny bit better in my personal opinion, because it is not a plating but rather a molecular surface change. But, this is probably a difference without a distinction for most of us. Get one, either kind. Keep your phosphate BCG in your bug out bag or range bag as a backup. It's a quick swap in the field if you should have a mechanical problem, and anything made by man, especially things that move rapidly, can break.
Link Posted: 3/11/2014 11:40:55 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MS556:
Must be a half dozen threads on this very topic in the last few weeks.

Both nitrocarburized (melonite) or black nitride, on the one hand, and nickel-boron (NiB) are much better than parkerized (phosphate) from the standpoint of durability and rapid cleanup.

I'm running a WMD NiB-X and like it a lot. I am also running a CMMG melonite barrel on the same gun. As good as the NiB-X is, if I were to do it over, I'd probably go with black nitride because it is a little, tiny bit better in my personal opinion, because it is not a plating but rather a molecular surface change. But, this is probably a difference without a distinction for most of us. Get one, either kind. Keep your phosphate BCG in your bug out bag or range bag as a backup. It's a quick swap in the field if you should have a mechanical problem, and anything made by man, especially things that move rapidly, can break.
View Quote


Right...when I was deciding between the 2 (NiB or black nitride), that was the deciding factor for me. The physics of the metal itself goes thru a change so there is no coating to wear off if not applied correctly. I believe black nitide will definitely standup better to wear.
Link Posted: 3/11/2014 2:32:32 PM EDT
What wears??

It's a hard ass steel carrier killing the fuck out of an aluminum receiver.

Or am I missing something?
Link Posted: 3/11/2014 2:46:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2014 2:46:47 PM EDT by PursuitSS]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By samuse:
What wears??

It's a hard ass steel carrier killing the fuck out of an aluminum receiver.

Or am I missing something?
View Quote


Everything wears, water will cut through granite over thousands of years.

I have an original Colt hard chrome plated carrier from the early sixties that has worn about a third of the finish on the rails down to bare steel.
Link Posted: 3/11/2014 2:52:15 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By PursuitSS:


Everything wears, water will cut through granite over thousands of years.

I have an original Colt hard chrome plated carrier from the early sixties that has worn about a third of the finish on the rails down to bare steel.
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Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
Originally Posted By samuse:
What wears??

It's a hard ass steel carrier killing the fuck out of an aluminum receiver.

Or am I missing something?


Everything wears, water will cut through granite over thousands of years.

I have an original Colt hard chrome plated carrier from the early sixties that has worn about a third of the finish on the rails down to bare steel.


And how much water does it take to cut through granite?

You'd go through a lot of aluminum uppers before you ever wore out a bolt carrier.
Link Posted: 3/11/2014 4:35:27 PM EDT
YMMV, as always..but I certainly haven't read anything to make me want to ditch my phosphate BCGs.
Link Posted: 3/12/2014 8:27:54 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By PursuitSS:


Everything wears, water will cut through granite over thousands of years.

I have an original Colt hard chrome plated carrier from the early sixties that has worn about a third of the finish on the rails down to bare steel.
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Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
Originally Posted By samuse:
What wears??

It's a hard ass steel carrier killing the fuck out of an aluminum receiver.

Or am I missing something?


Everything wears, water will cut through granite over thousands of years.

I have an original Colt hard chrome plated carrier from the early sixties that has worn about a third of the finish on the rails down to bare steel.


How many uppers has that carrier worn out?

I've seen uppers with ditches in 'em where the carrier rides and the carriers are still good. Very smooth, and the phosphating is gone, but it sits there soaked in oil all the time and will last longer than any of will even be alive.

The carrier is the probably the one part on an AR that is imposssible to wear out and for some reason people think it needs a super duper finish to reduce wear.

They'd work fine in the white, but they'd have to be coated in cosmoline when in storage.
Link Posted: 3/12/2014 8:39:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2014 8:39:48 AM EDT by ewetstone]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By PriapusMaximus:


And how much water does it take to cut through granite?

You'd go through a lot of aluminum uppers before you ever wore out a bolt carrier.
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Originally Posted By PriapusMaximus:
Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
Originally Posted By samuse:
What wears??

It's a hard ass steel carrier killing the fuck out of an aluminum receiver.

Or am I missing something?


Everything wears, water will cut through granite over thousands of years.

I have an original Colt hard chrome plated carrier from the early sixties that has worn about a third of the finish on the rails down to bare steel.


And how much water does it take to cut through granite?

You'd go through a lot of aluminum uppers before you ever wore out a bolt carrier.


Probably more than to erode aluminum.

btw....Love the International Scout...I have owned 2 in the past. Would love to find another in good shape for our New England winters.
Link Posted: 3/13/2014 4:21:28 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By samuse:


How many uppers has that carrier worn out?

I've seen uppers with ditches in 'em where the carrier rides and the carriers are still good. Very smooth, and the phosphating is gone, but it sits there soaked in oil all the time and will last longer than any of will even be alive.

The carrier is the probably the one part on an AR that is imposssible to wear out and for some reason people think it needs a super duper finish to reduce wear.

They'd work fine in the white, but they'd have to be coated in cosmoline when in storage.
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Originally Posted By samuse:
Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
Originally Posted By samuse:
What wears??

It's a hard ass steel carrier killing the fuck out of an aluminum receiver.

Or am I missing something?


Everything wears, water will cut through granite over thousands of years.

I have an original Colt hard chrome plated carrier from the early sixties that has worn about a third of the finish on the rails down to bare steel.


How many uppers has that carrier worn out?

I've seen uppers with ditches in 'em where the carrier rides and the carriers are still good. Very smooth, and the phosphating is gone, but it sits there soaked in oil all the time and will last longer than any of will even be alive.

The carrier is the probably the one part on an AR that is imposssible to wear out and for some reason people think it needs a super duper finish to reduce wear.

They'd work fine in the white, but they'd have to be coated in cosmoline when in storage.



I've considered an alternative coating BCG but not because I was worried about BCG wear....more because they claim that some (NiB, for example) are slicker and reduce wear on the upper. I don't know if there's any truth to that, but if so, that would make it worthwhile IMO.
Link Posted: 3/13/2014 6:26:50 AM EDT
There is also the wear from the rings inside the bolt hole.
Link Posted: 3/13/2014 7:08:11 AM EDT
Never understood all the fuss about coated BCG's.

Been using quality mil spec BCG's for years and years with no issues.

A solution for a problem that doesn't exist.
Link Posted: 3/13/2014 7:45:06 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By M4:
Never understood all the fuss about coated BCG's.

Been using quality mil spec BCG's for years and years with no issues.

A solution for a problem that doesn't exist.
View Quote



Yeah, I never understood why the military insisted on chromed carriers, gas keys and chambers.....problem that never existed!
Link Posted: 3/13/2014 8:10:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2014 8:10:48 AM EDT by M4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Blain:



Yeah, I never understood why the military insisted on chromed carriers, gas keys and chambers.....problem that never existed!
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Originally Posted By Blain:
Originally Posted By M4:
Never understood all the fuss about coated BCG's.

Been using quality mil spec BCG's for years and years with no issues.

A solution for a problem that doesn't exist.



Yeah, I never understood why the military insisted on chromed carriers, gas keys and chambers.....problem that never existed!

You're not real good at reading comprehension I see.

Try the part in red one more time.
Link Posted: 3/13/2014 8:27:18 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By M4:

You're not real good at reading comprehension I see.

Try the part in red one more time.
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Originally Posted By M4:
Originally Posted By Blain:
Originally Posted By M4:
Never understood all the fuss about coated BCG's.

Been using quality mil spec BCG's for years and years with no issues.

A solution for a problem that doesn't exist.



Yeah, I never understood why the military insisted on chromed carriers, gas keys and chambers.....problem that never existed!

You're not real good at reading comprehension I see.

Try the part in red one more time.


BUT, Industrial Hard Chrome plating on the whole carrier WAS the spec.

It was eliminated as a cost cutting measure.
Link Posted: 3/13/2014 9:20:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2014 9:27:50 AM EDT by Blain]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By PursuitSS:


BUT, Industrial Hard Chrome plating on the whole carrier WAS the spec.

It was eliminated as a cost cutting measure.

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Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
Originally Posted By M4:
Originally Posted By Blain:
Originally Posted By M4:
Never understood all the fuss about coated BCG's.

Been using quality mil spec BCG's for years and years with no issues.

A solution for a problem that doesn't exist.



Yeah, I never understood why the military insisted on chromed carriers, gas keys and chambers.....problem that never existed!

You're not real good at reading comprehension I see.

Try the part in red one more time.


BUT, Industrial Hard Chrome plating on the whole carrier WAS the spec.

It was eliminated as a cost cutting measure.



This.

Doesn't mean there are no additional benefits to a fully chromed BCG. They cut chrome lining from barrels as another cut cutting measure (and then added it back in after all the malfunctions).

If a "special coating" offers no benefits, then why is it critical to have it on at LEAST some areas of the gun?
Link Posted: 3/13/2014 4:39:31 PM EDT
My time is valuable. Much quicker cleanup with the slick NiB and have not had to do any carbon scraping. More time to shoot in a very busy life is a good thing. I'm obsessive about keeping my weapons well-maintained and anything that cuts that time (simply wipe off the BCG) is a good thing. Tired of scraping and soaking.
Link Posted: 3/13/2014 5:45:51 PM EDT
Get the one that has the best name as there all about the same.
Link Posted: 3/13/2014 5:55:09 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MS556:
My time is valuable. Much quicker cleanup with the slick NiB and have not had to do any carbon scraping. More time to shoot in a very busy life is a good thing. I'm obsessive about keeping my weapons well-maintained and anything that cuts that time (simply wipe off the BCG) is a good thing. Tired of scraping and soaking.
View Quote

Now that's a good point.
Link Posted: 3/14/2014 10:46:44 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MS556:
My time is valuable. Much quicker cleanup with the slick NiB and have not had to do any carbon scraping. More time to shoot in a very busy life is a good thing. I'm obsessive about keeping my weapons well-maintained and anything that cuts that time (simply wipe off the BCG) is a good thing. Tired of scraping and soaking.
View Quote


I'm not fucked up the head about stuff being clean, so I just shoot a dirty phosphated BCG that performs just as well as a clean one with a different finish.


Link Posted: 3/14/2014 11:03:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2014 9:40:01 PM EDT by Sinister]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By samuse:
What wears??

It's a hard ass steel carrier killing the fuck out of an aluminum receiver.

Or am I missing something?
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Originally Posted By samuse:
What wears??

It's a hard ass steel carrier killing the fuck out of an aluminum receiver.

Or am I missing something?


Bingo.

NP3 is a (teflon-nickel) self-lubricating finish -- the more the exterior wears the more teflon is exposed, making it more slippery.

As teflon is one of the most slippery man-made finishes, stuff like carbon doesn't really bond to it.

The Problem With Nickel-Boron

A few months ago I discussed metals and coatings for firearm actions. I noted the NiB (nickel-boron) gets discolored by fouling, but my photos only showed a sparkling new NiB-X BCG. Following is a picture of what it looks like after a few hundred rounds of use, followed by ultrasonic cleaning and then aggressive scrubbing with steel and brass wire brushes. For comparison I show my heavily-used chromed BCG on top.



AR-15 bolts: Chrome and NiB-X, as clean as they get

Is this just a cosmetic issue? This is the only cleaning I’ve given the NiB BCG. I haven’t lubed it and I have subsequently run a few hundred rounds more without any action failures. However it seems plausible that if fouling can bind to the surface this stubbornly it could build up to the point of overtaking the nickel-boron’s lubricity and causing a stoppage that only traditional lubricants prevent. As noted in the original article this is not a problem with chrome and NP3: All photos of those to date have been after they were used and wiped clean with minimal brushing.

This entry was posted in Arms on February 7, 2014 by federalist.
Link Posted: 3/14/2014 2:59:46 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By samuse:


I'm not fucked up the head about stuff being clean, so I just shoot a dirty phosphated BCG that performs just as well as a clean one with a different finish.


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Originally Posted By samuse:
Originally Posted By MS556:
My time is valuable. Much quicker cleanup with the slick NiB and have not had to do any carbon scraping. More time to shoot in a very busy life is a good thing. I'm obsessive about keeping my weapons well-maintained and anything that cuts that time (simply wipe off the BCG) is a good thing. Tired of scraping and soaking.


I'm not fucked up the head about stuff being clean, so I just shoot a dirty phosphated BCG that performs just as well as a clean one with a different finish.





No, it doesn't. You might not notice the difference, but try shooting suppressed with a SBR.

I can shoot a phosphate BCG with no chrome on the carrier interior and gas key and not experience any problems in my plinking. Does that mean it performs just as well as the mil spec one?
Link Posted: 3/14/2014 6:18:52 PM EDT
Chrone nitride (CrN), IonBonds version of chrome is where it's at for BCGs IMHO. It goes on thin and evenly pllus it ias hard and slick as shit. All the guys who ar knocking BCG with a finish other than phosphate I would bet has never used something other than phosphate. It's one of thse things once you use you will never go back. It makes clean up easier but I say because of CrN being slick makes the rifles run more smooth and therefore more reliable..
Link Posted: 3/14/2014 9:10:32 PM EDT
Peened rubber city armory bolt in less than 500 rounds.
Found a YM chrome bolt takes just as much effort to clean as my Daniel Defense phosphate bolt.

Stopped trying to re think the wheel after the above two experiences.
Link Posted: 3/15/2014 6:21:55 AM EDT
I shoot corrosive ammo out of my 5.45 rifle. I used a mil-spec BCG and it will form tiny little rust nodules on it making the action hard to work within 5 hours. My barrel gas block and gas tube are melonited and won't rust even if left a couple days without cleaning. In this case I wish I had bought a nickeled or melonited BCG, I guarantee you it would help. Funny it was the only rifle I've built without a coated bolt in the last 2 years, but there were none available at the time I built it. That being said the corrosion cleans right off and doesn't affect any thing once off.
Link Posted: 3/15/2014 6:52:22 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Blain:



No, it doesn't. You might not notice the difference, but try shooting suppressed with a SBR.

I can shoot a phosphate BCG with no chrome on the carrier interior and gas key and not experience any problems in my plinking. Does that mean it performs just as well as the mil spec one?
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Originally Posted By Blain:
Originally Posted By samuse:
Originally Posted By MS556:
My time is valuable. Much quicker cleanup with the slick NiB and have not had to do any carbon scraping. More time to shoot in a very busy life is a good thing. I'm obsessive about keeping my weapons well-maintained and anything that cuts that time (simply wipe off the BCG) is a good thing. Tired of scraping and soaking.


I'm not fucked up the head about stuff being clean, so I just shoot a dirty phosphated BCG that performs just as well as a clean one with a different finish.





No, it doesn't. You might not notice the difference, but try shooting suppressed with a SBR.

I can shoot a phosphate BCG with no chrome on the carrier interior and gas key and not experience any problems in my plinking. Does that mean it performs just as well as the mil spec one?


Hmm. That 6933 upper I shoot with an NT4 on a registered M16 lower must need a new carrier.

Keeping gas out of my face would be nice, but the carrier finish is fine.
Link Posted: 3/15/2014 1:30:42 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
Peened rubber city armory bolt in less than 500 rounds.
Found a YM chrome bolt takes just as much effort to clean as my Daniel Defense phosphate bolt.

Stopped trying to re think the wheel after the above two experiences.
View Quote


Rubber City is not exactly what would be considered a Tier 1 manufacturer or Tier 2
Link Posted: 3/17/2014 6:57:57 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By PursuitSS:


Rubber City is not exactly what would be considered a Tier 1 manufacturer or Tier 2
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Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
Peened rubber city armory bolt in less than 500 rounds.
Found a YM chrome bolt takes just as much effort to clean as my Daniel Defense phosphate bolt.

Stopped trying to re think the wheel after the above two experiences.


Rubber City is not exactly what would be considered a Tier 1 manufacturer or Tier 2



Ok another question - Didn't want to start a whole new thread on BCG's

Is it worth upgrading the bolt, bolt carrier and/or both?

I see bolt carriers like

LMT enhanced

PWS enhanced

etc... are they that much better?

What about bolts like

JP rifles enhanced Bolt

Sharps Relia-bolt

LMT enhanced Bolt

etc...


I have owned RRA, Stag, and my brothers are running Colts, BCM's, and PSA's

We haven't had any trouble but we don't run them really hard.

Would I get more bang for my buck with a phosphate bolt carrier (mid to low tier) and upgrading the bolt (top tier), instead of going for a mid tiered BCG?


Thanks
Link Posted: 3/17/2014 8:40:28 PM EDT
Spike's is going to have a new bolt out shortly that is completely over the top overkill!

It is manufactured out of S7 steel which has three times the impact strength of either Carpenter 158 or 9310.

In addition, it will use 4 gas rings instead of 3
Link Posted: 3/25/2014 6:40:53 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
Spike's is going to have a new bolt out shortly that is completely over the top overkill!

It is manufactured out of S7 steel which has three times the impact strength of either Carpenter 158 or 9310.

In addition, it will use 4 gas rings instead of 3
View Quote

It has no spec.
It is a "new" item.
Sometimes "more" is not "better".


Possible issues:

The dimples will create stress spots near the cam-pin hole.
The S7 will warp when heat-treated.
The 4th gas-ring will provide an impedance to the bolt self-centering/leveling against the barrel extension and introduce stresses that should not exist.
The heat-treat may be off (this is with any bolt, of course, but Barret did a ton of work figuring out how to do it right on their rifles. It did not work well at first.)

What exactly is the problem with a Mil-Spec BCG? What functional benefit does one hope to achieve with one of these new and unproven items? Even chrome provides very very limited (no?) benefit. I tested a Young MFG chrome bolt. It was just as, if not harder to clean than my mil-spec bolts to white-glove standard, and neither of them need to really be scraped, anyway. Just tested it to see if it cleaned up better.

Anyway, I'll ask again...what do people think they are gaining? Objective studies by the .mil indicate no gains.
Link Posted: 3/25/2014 10:22:14 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 12_gauge:

It has no spec.
It is a "new" item.
Sometimes "more" is not "better".


Possible issues:

The dimples will create stress spots near the cam-pin hole.
The S7 will warp when heat-treated.
The 4th gas-ring will provide an impedance to the bolt self-centering/leveling against the barrel extension and introduce stresses that should not exist.
The heat-treat may be off (this is with any bolt, of course, but Barret did a ton of work figuring out how to do it right on their rifles. It did not work well at first.)

What exactly is the problem with a Mil-Spec BCG? What functional benefit does one hope to achieve with one of these new and unproven items? Even chrome provides very very limited (no?) benefit. I tested a Young MFG chrome bolt. It was just as, if not harder to clean than my mil-spec bolts to white-glove standard, and neither of them need to really be scraped, anyway. Just tested it to see if it cleaned up better.

Anyway, I'll ask again...what do people think they are gaining? Objective studies by the .mil indicate no gains.
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Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
Spike's is going to have a new bolt out shortly that is completely over the top overkill!

It is manufactured out of S7 steel which has three times the impact strength of either Carpenter 158 or 9310.

In addition, it will use 4 gas rings instead of 3

It has no spec.
It is a "new" item.
Sometimes "more" is not "better".


Possible issues:

The dimples will create stress spots near the cam-pin hole.
The S7 will warp when heat-treated.
The 4th gas-ring will provide an impedance to the bolt self-centering/leveling against the barrel extension and introduce stresses that should not exist.
The heat-treat may be off (this is with any bolt, of course, but Barret did a ton of work figuring out how to do it right on their rifles. It did not work well at first.)

What exactly is the problem with a Mil-Spec BCG? What functional benefit does one hope to achieve with one of these new and unproven items? Even chrome provides very very limited (no?) benefit. I tested a Young MFG chrome bolt. It was just as, if not harder to clean than my mil-spec bolts to white-glove standard, and neither of them need to really be scraped, anyway. Just tested it to see if it cleaned up better.

Anyway, I'll ask again...what do people think they are gaining? Objective studies by the .mil indicate no gains.


Same as any steel, if not PROPERLY heat treated you will have issues. I fully trust Spike's to have any problems worked out before they release it.

Problem will Mil-Spec? They DO fail. I've broken cam pins and there have been numerous issues over the years with bolt failures.
Link Posted: 3/25/2014 2:43:14 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By PursuitSS:


Same as any steel, if not PROPERLY heat treated you will have issues. I fully trust Spike's to have any problems worked out before they release it.

Problem will Mil-Spec? They DO fail. I've broken cam pins and there have been numerous issues over the years with bolt failures.
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Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
Spike's is going to have a new bolt out shortly that is completely over the top overkill!

It is manufactured out of S7 steel which has three times the impact strength of either Carpenter 158 or 9310.

In addition, it will use 4 gas rings instead of 3

It has no spec.
It is a "new" item.
Sometimes "more" is not "better".


Possible issues:

The dimples will create stress spots near the cam-pin hole.
The S7 will warp when heat-treated.
The 4th gas-ring will provide an impedance to the bolt self-centering/leveling against the barrel extension and introduce stresses that should not exist.
The heat-treat may be off (this is with any bolt, of course, but Barret did a ton of work figuring out how to do it right on their rifles. It did not work well at first.)

What exactly is the problem with a Mil-Spec BCG? What functional benefit does one hope to achieve with one of these new and unproven items? Even chrome provides very very limited (no?) benefit. I tested a Young MFG chrome bolt. It was just as, if not harder to clean than my mil-spec bolts to white-glove standard, and neither of them need to really be scraped, anyway. Just tested it to see if it cleaned up better.

Anyway, I'll ask again...what do people think they are gaining? Objective studies by the .mil indicate no gains.


Same as any steel, if not PROPERLY heat treated you will have issues. I fully trust Spike's to have any problems worked out before they release it.

Problem will Mil-Spec? They DO fail. I've broken cam pins and there have been numerous issues over the years with bolt failures.

Spikes claims they get 50K+ rounds per mil-spec BCG in their rifles.
I have never seen one break. I know they do break, though, but the point is...is it a problem? I don't feel like it's near as much of a problem as this is an "unknown". Law of unintended consequences and all. I believe the Reliabolt was submitted during the last PiP, although I don't know for certain as all of the vendors were not made public. It lost to the mil-spec BCG in performance, if it was. Nothing beat it.
Link Posted: 3/25/2014 2:53:03 PM EDT
Real talk right here : ive got a chrome youngs bcg that has over 12k thru it. Shows a little wear on the edges but all the coating is still there. And get this the gas key isnt staked. Not everthing is necessary. Including coated bcg.
Link Posted: 3/25/2014 2:57:54 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Talywhacker:
Real talk right here : ive got a chrome youngs bcg that has over 12k thru it. Shows a little wear on the edges but all the coating is still there. And get this the gas key isnt staked. Not everthing is necessary. Including coated bcg.
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But STAKING IS NECESSARY unless your AR is a range toy!

I had an early J.P. Enterprises carrier that the screws came loose on. Turned the gun into a manual cycled weapon
Link Posted: 3/25/2014 3:04:02 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By PursuitSS:


But STAKING IS NECESSARY unless your AR is a range toy!

I had an early J.P. Enterprises carrier that the screws came loose on. Turned the gun into a manual cycled weapon
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Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
Originally Posted By Talywhacker:
Real talk right here : ive got a chrome youngs bcg that has over 12k thru it. Shows a little wear on the edges but all the coating is still there. And get this the gas key isnt staked. Not everthing is necessary. Including coated bcg.


But STAKING IS NECESSARY unless your AR is a range toy!

I had an early J.P. Enterprises carrier that the screws came loose on. Turned the gun into a manual cycled weapon


Things are staked for a reason.
The same reason they are not NiB'ed or otherwise. NiB is used in military weapons. Just not this BCG item. Why? Because during the last PiP, no advantage was seen for any of these wonder-coatings and the mil-spec BCG outperformed them all.
Link Posted: 3/25/2014 4:07:30 PM EDT
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I fully trust Spike's to have any problems worked out before they release it.
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+1 Spikes just doesn't put out sub par components/rifles.
Link Posted: 3/26/2014 6:42:49 AM EDT
Guess I will wait till Spikes gets the S7 bolt done


Just ordered a $47.00 Bolt from AIM to hold me over until then
Link Posted: 3/26/2014 7:38:11 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By 12_gauge:


Things are staked for a reason.
The same reason they are not NiB'ed or otherwise. NiB is used in military weapons. Just not this BCG item. Why? Because during the last PiP, no advantage was seen for any of these wonder-coatings and the mil-spec BCG outperformed them all.
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Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
Originally Posted By Talywhacker:
Real talk right here : ive got a chrome youngs bcg that has over 12k thru it. Shows a little wear on the edges but all the coating is still there. And get this the gas key isnt staked. Not everthing is necessary. Including coated bcg.


But STAKING IS NECESSARY unless your AR is a range toy!

I had an early J.P. Enterprises carrier that the screws came loose on. Turned the gun into a manual cycled weapon


Things are staked for a reason.
The same reason they are not NiB'ed or otherwise. NiB is used in military weapons. Just not this BCG item. Why? Because during the last PiP, no advantage was seen for any of these wonder-coatings and the mil-spec BCG outperformed them all.


Where did you come up with this from? NiB was never evaluated by the military, specifically for possible adoption by the M4s in service. The mil-spec BCG does not outperform them.....

Link Posted: 3/27/2014 4:34:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2014 4:39:16 AM EDT by 12_gauge]
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Originally Posted By plouffedaddy:



+1 Spikes just doesn't put out sub par components/rifles.
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Originally Posted By plouffedaddy:

I fully trust Spike's to have any problems worked out before they release it.



+1 Spikes just doesn't put out sub par components/rifles.


No, they do not, but I do not feel that the potential unintended consequences of an extra gas-ring and the other things have been fully explored, and won't be, for some time.

Spikes has also said that their C158 bolts last 50K+ rounds, so I fail to see what's gained...

Further, Spikes happily released their NiB BCG's. Then turned around and fixed the seizing issues by ionbonding the rings. Thus, they in my book have a history of releasing a product, finding an issue, etc. This isn't a knock on them, but it is a reality-check. They have changed multiple design features with this bolt, and I fully expect that it gets/needs refinement after it is fully fielded.
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 5:07:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2014 5:10:54 AM EDT by 12_gauge]
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Originally Posted By Blain:


Where did you come up with this from? NiB was never evaluated by the military, specifically for possible adoption by the M4s in service. The mil-spec BCG does not outperform them.....

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Originally Posted By Blain:
Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
Originally Posted By Talywhacker:
Real talk right here : ive got a chrome youngs bcg that has over 12k thru it. Shows a little wear on the edges but all the coating is still there. And get this the gas key isnt staked. Not everthing is necessary. Including coated bcg.


But STAKING IS NECESSARY unless your AR is a range toy!

I had an early J.P. Enterprises carrier that the screws came loose on. Turned the gun into a manual cycled weapon


Things are staked for a reason.
The same reason they are not NiB'ed or otherwise. NiB is used in military weapons. Just not this BCG item. Why? Because during the last PiP, no advantage was seen for any of these wonder-coatings and the mil-spec BCG outperformed them all.


Where did you come up with this from? NiB was never evaluated by the military, specifically for possible adoption by the M4s in service. The mil-spec BCG does not outperform them.....



I no-longer have access to the vendors that competed/submitted interest in the BCG PiP, but from what I recall, LWRC and LMT were among them. I can guarantee you that they used the latest unicorn-blood coatings.

Vendor List used to be public. I do remember seeing LMT and LWRC: https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=a02592d1287b5eea3d3aae206397518e

I believe Broadsword Group and POF may have also submitted product. I am no sure about the rest of the 11 interested vendors.

Here is the result:

http://peosoldier.armylive.dodlive.mil/2012/08/23/m4-carbine-product-improvement-program-pip-update/




What exactly does NiB offer than would improve things? NiB is in use by the military on weapon systems. Just not this one.
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 6:55:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2014 6:55:40 AM EDT by Blain]
Because the army decides to REJECT product improvements (they even looked at possible switching rifles and calibers) doesn't mean that the improvement isn't worthwhile. LMT and LWRC don't supply rifles to the military. It has been proven and documented that NiB and related coatings can allow an AR to opperate longer while dirtier without malfunction. There have even been tests conducted on this board of suppressed SBRs firing thousands of rounds unlubbed with NiB BCG. Try that with a standard phosphate one.

If coatings don't matter, then why do the carrier and gas key internals need to be chrome lined? What exactly does chrome offer that improves things?
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 10:33:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2014 10:39:10 AM EDT by webman]
I use JP's QPQ-treated carriers. QPQ is a form of nitrocarburizing, or nitride treatment, wherein the part is treated twice, with a polishing step between each quench (hence QPQ). The carriers are very smooth, easy to clean, and extremely durable. Cycling them feels like they are gliding on rollers. However, they don't really improve performance over phosphate carriers in any appreciable way, other than possibly needing less gas to cycle reliably (I've never tested), and wearing on the receiver a tad bit less. I feel the same about other treatments. They are nice, but not really needed. Also, with plating, I am always a little wary of crazing, and subsequent flaking. It is rare, but does happen. This is one thing nitride, and phosphate can't do.

As for bolts, I have always been told that you should not treat them with QPQ / nitrocarb / nitride treatments. Unless very carefully controlled, you will ruin the temper. Properly done to maintain temper, you don't fully achieve the durability, and corrosion resistance that you would want with these processes.

So, if you are obsessive when it comes to getting your carrier clean, and you like the smooth feel, then a treated, or plated carrier might be for you. Otherwise, you aren't really missing anything, in terms of performance, with regular old phosphate.

ETA - the JP bolts that came with my carriers are "enhanced". They claim a longer life on the lugs. I couldn't tell you if that is true, or not, because I haven't had a bolt fail.
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 11:24:28 AM EDT
Unless you are shooting suppressed just buy a decent mil-spec parkerized BCG (Spikes, BCM, Colt, many others...) and shoot it.

I have a Spikes NiB that has had zero issues so far. The finish does get a little darker as you use it but I don't mind. Lots of things on your rifle are going to show use when you shoot it

I went with nickel boron because like others have said, it is easier to clean up especially after shooting suppressed. I know I don't have to clean my gun every range trip (and I definitely don't) but I feel that at least cleaning them when I have the chance will be worth it in the long run for the sake of the rifles lifespan.
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 7:32:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2014 7:34:37 PM EDT by 12_gauge]
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Originally Posted By Blain:
Because the army decides to REJECT product improvements (they even looked at possible switching rifles and calibers) doesn't mean that the improvement isn't worthwhile. LMT and LWRC don't supply rifles to the military. It has been proven and documented that NiB and related coatings can allow an AR to opperate longer while dirtier without malfunction. There have even been tests conducted on this board of suppressed SBRs firing thousands of rounds unlubbed with NiB BCG. Try that with a standard phosphate one.

If coatings don't matter, then why do the carrier and gas key internals need to be chrome lined? What exactly does chrome offer that improves things?
View Quote

What part of the milspec being more reliable and durable in the PiP testing are you questioning? Lmt and LWRC did indeed submit bcg's as far as I am aware.

After hundreds of rounds suppressed, one paper towel and a thumbnail and a boresnake and chamber brush get my rifle cleaned fast and well. No spec less coatings needed.
Link Posted: 4/23/2014 1:01:32 AM EDT
Well...Spikes canned the S7 bolt. Unintended consequences and all...
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