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Posted: 8/14/2005 4:53:24 PM EDT
I know most of the general stats and velocities, but after all is said and done, which is the best overall combat 5.56 round? By the way, I have read ammo-oracle, but I'm still not sure.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 5:05:22 PM EDT
Ice bullets are the best by far.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 5:09:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By safetyhit:
I know most of the general stats and velocities, but after all is said and done, which is the best overall combat 5.56 round? By the way, I have read ammo-oracle, but I'm still not sure.



Read it again. It all depends on your requirements.

If you are planning on engaging bad guys from zero to 100 yards using a 14.5" to 16" barrel or longer with a twist rate no tighter than 1/9 then either Fed XM193 or Win Q3131A.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 5:21:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 9:57:14 AM EDT by txgp17]
M995 Armor Piercing IMHO
good luck finding any
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 5:22:45 PM EDT
The one you are most accurate with.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 5:27:59 PM EDT
Garlic coated, mercury filled Raufoss.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 7:52:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/14/2005 7:58:53 PM EDT by Charging_Handle]
The most devastating round I ever saw in .223/5.56mm was the 100 gr load that Black Hills devised a couple of years ago. It had the shortest neck (distance traveled until yaw occurred) I've ever seen in this caliber and the most dramatic fragmentation. It also penetrated to ideal depths.

Unfortunately, the round had the trajectory of a brick being tossed by an elderly woman. Therefore out past 100 yds, it starts dropping pretty dramatically. So as far as I know, this load never made it much farther than the experimental stage. But it would have made one hell of a CQB load.

The next best load I can think of is the 75/77 gr cannelured match bullets loaded to milspec velocities.

After that, the Black Hills and Hornady commercial spec 75/77 gr match loads are very good.

For folks who have 1:9 twist barrels that won't stabilize the 75/77 gr loads sufficiently (some will, some won't), then I'd recommend the Black Hills 68 gr match or Winchester 64 gr Power Point Plus (or Winchester Ranger 64 gr Power Point).

-CH
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 7:54:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
The most devastating round I ever saw in .223/5.56mm was the 100 gr load that Black Hills devised a couple of years ago. It had the shortest neck (distance traveled until yaw occurred) I've ever seen in this caliber and the most dramatic fragmentation. It also penetrated to ideal depths.

Unfortunately, the round had the trajectory of a brick being tossed by an elderly woman. Therefore out past 100 yds, it starts dropping pretty dramatically. So as far as I know, this load never made it much farther than the experimental stage. But it would have made one hell of a CQB load.

The next best load I can think of is the 75/77 gr cannelured match bullets loaded to milspec velocities.

After that, the Black Hills and Hornady commercial spec 75/77 gr match loads are very good.



+ 1 on the BH 75/77
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 8:09:05 PM EDT
For small game and reactive targets such as watermelon, oranges, plastic jugs..........55 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips, They have a "exploding" result
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 12:30:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By safetyhit:
I know most of the general stats and velocities, but after all is said and done, which is the best overall combat 5.56 round? By the way, I have read ammo-oracle, but I'm still not sure.



Read it again. It all depends on your requirements.

If you are planning on engaging bad guys from zero to 100 yards using a 14.5" to 16" barrel or longer with a twist rate no tighter than 1/9 then either Fed XM193 or Win Q3131A.



BZZZZZTTTTT!!!!! WRONG ANSWER!!!!
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 12:32:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
The most devastating round I ever saw in .223/5.56mm was the 100 gr load that Black Hills devised a couple of years ago. It had the shortest neck (distance traveled until yaw occurred) I've ever seen in this caliber and the most dramatic fragmentation. It also penetrated to ideal depths.

Unfortunately, the round had the trajectory of a brick being tossed by an elderly woman. Therefore out past 100 yds, it starts dropping pretty dramatically. So as far as I know, this load never made it much farther than the experimental stage. But it would have made one hell of a CQB load.

The next best load I can think of is the 75/77 gr cannelured match bullets loaded to milspec velocities.

After that, the Black Hills and Hornady commercial spec 75/77 gr match loads are very good.

For folks who have 1:9 twist barrels that won't stabilize the 75/77 gr loads sufficiently (some will, some won't), then I'd recommend the Black Hills 68 gr match or Winchester 64 gr Power Point Plus (or Winchester Ranger 64 gr Power Point).

-CH



DING DING!!!!! WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!

Also add in the 69 grain Sierra to the 1/9 mix as well as 55 and 62 grain TBBC bullets for barrier penetration.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 12:36:06 AM EDT
LeMas..

Sorry, had to do it.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 12:59:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 1:00:16 AM EDT by DevL]

Originally Posted By yekimak:
LeMas..

Sorry, had to do it.



Only appropriate for butt shots and pot roasts, rump roasts or other rump meats.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 2:08:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By safetyhit:

after all is said and done, which is the best overall combat 5.56 round?




The one that takes them out of the fight of course .

Will 55gr 5.56 kill ya as well as a 62 or 80gr....
Hell yeah , in their fragmentation window . The
problem is that outside of a controlled environment
like they use for testing . It may not work as well .

Real combat is dynamic with variables that can change
from shot to shot . Depending on where you read it
the average number of rounds expended in Vietnam to kill one
enemy solder was as low as 50,000 and as high as 200,000 overall .
For the average soldier it was between 2000 - 8000 shots per kill .

So what’s the best round ...... Lots

Link Posted: 8/15/2005 4:02:10 AM EDT
I wonder what would happen if you loaded 80 gr to 100 gr bullets with mil-spec chamber pressure/velocity...

If you're going past 700m I think it's better to just switch to a higher caliber.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 4:37:11 AM EDT
You can get a 77 gr bullet moving pretty fast.

I loaded up a couple that hit 2900 out of my DCM gun.
Scary high pressures, but It is possible. . . .
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 5:47:46 AM EDT
M855 is the most devastating as far as troop morale!
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 6:27:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Krazny13:
You can get a 77 gr bullet moving pretty fast.

I loaded up a couple that hit 2900 out of my DCM gun.
Scary high pressures, but It is possible. . . .



I'm thinking of an uber-modified bull barrel where the upper receiver is re-designed to accept a thicker-walled chamber, and much thicker barrel to handle high pressure loads with heavy grain bullets (80gr-100gr). yes it'd be kind of heavy, but perhaps a 16"-18" barrel could be used ala SPR. Or we could always step up to good 'ol 7.62x51. LOL
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 6:28:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:
M855 is the most devastating as far as troop morale!



It should be banned???
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 7:14:49 AM EDT
That bluetip incendiary 5.56 at gunshows must be the most devastating.hock.gif
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 9:43:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 3:19:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By Gunbert:
Garlic coated, mercury filled Raufoss.



Only after rubbed on a poison arrow frog, of course. Otherwise it's useless.



Of course, you could always use the depleted uranium 5.56mm +P+ Hollow Points and fill the tips with a Cobra Feces and anthrax slurry


Yeah Baby!!!



Link Posted: 8/15/2005 4:18:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2005 9:56:35 AM EDT by HP40]
With a 12"+ neck how does 77 GR. SMK manage to damage anything, unless we're shooting at really fat people.

ETA I didn't know what I was talking about.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 4:31:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HP40:
With a 12"+ neck how does 77 GR. SMK manage to damage anything, unless we're shooting at really fat people.



It has 12" of total penetrationand not a 12" neck... where did you get such a ridiculous idea?
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 5:20:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By safetyhit:
I know most of the general stats and velocities, but after all is said and done, which is the best overall combat 5.56 round? By the way, I have read ammo-oracle, but I'm still not sure.



Read it again. It all depends on your requirements.

If you are planning on engaging bad guys from zero to 100 yards using a 14.5" to 16" barrel or longer with a twist rate no tighter than 1/9 then either Fed XM193 or Win Q3131A.



BZZZZZTTTTT!!!!! WRONG ANSWER!!!!



It depends which question you're trying to answer:

1) What is the most devastating 5.56 round?

2) which is the best overall combat 5.56 round?

If you're answering #2 then I stand by my answer, especially when thinking about cost, availability, etc.

But if you're answering #1 then you are correct sir. You win one atta boy.

Link Posted: 8/15/2005 6:52:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By HP40:
With a 12"+ neck how does 77 GR. SMK manage to damage anything, unless we're shooting at really fat people.



It has 12" of total penetrationand not a 12" neck... where did you get such a ridiculous idea?




The Ammo-oracle of course, look at the actual gel block test. It shows a 19" neck before yaw. I got the 12"+ from other posts. I'll test mk262 in wet news print for a comparison against other rnds. beforer I load up on the stuff. The long neck of 77 SMK is my only concern about using this ammo.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 7:58:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 9:54:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By HP40:

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By HP40:
With a 12"+ neck how does 77 GR. SMK manage to damage anything, unless we're shooting at really fat people.



It has 12" of total penetrationand not a 12" neck... where did you get such a ridiculous idea?




The Ammo-oracle of course, look at the actual gel block test. It shows a 19" neck before yaw. I got the 12"+ from other posts. I'll test mk262 in wet news print for a comparison against other rnds. beforer I load up on the stuff. The long neck of 77 SMK is my only concern about using this ammo.



You NEED to read it again. It doesn't say that. The pictures don't show that.





Thanks for pointing out my error, it's apparantly a 6" neck.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 10:43:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 10mmPhil:
That bluetip incendiary 5.56 at gunshows must be the most devastating.


Link Posted: 8/16/2005 11:29:14 AM EDT
3....O....8


The 6.8 is possible if they ever get it off the ground. Otherwise, I would stick with the heavy 223 (68/69 or 75/77 gr) bullets and do 2 to the chest and one to the head.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 3:11:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AirCommando:

Originally Posted By 10mmPhil:
That bluetip incendiary 5.56 at gunshows must be the most devastating.


i23.photobucket.com/albums/b397/AirCommando/Incendiary.jpgi23.photobucket.com/albums/b397/AirCommando/.jpg



Strange, ammotogo sells this exact same HE incendiary, same package and all, and some in this forum say it is fake. I've bought alot from them, but never tried this stuff. Looks tempting.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 3:38:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By safetyhit:

Originally Posted By AirCommando:

Originally Posted By 10mmPhil:
That bluetip incendiary 5.56 at gunshows must be the most devastating.


i23.photobucket.com/albums/b397/AirCommando/Incendiary.jpgi23.photobucket.com/albums/b397/AirCommando/.jpg



Strange, ammotogo sells this exact same HE incendiary, same package and all, and some in this forum say it is fake. I've bought alot from them, but never tried this stuff. Looks tempting.



I picked those pics off their add in Gunbroker.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 3:46:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2005 3:48:31 PM EDT by safetyhit]
Is it the same stuff, packaging and all, you see at the gunshows? Nevermind, that was 10mmPhil, but thanks for the reply.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 4:12:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 4:20:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By HP40:

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By HP40:

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By HP40:
With a 12"+ neck how does 77 GR. SMK manage to damage anything, unless we're shooting at really fat people.



It has 12" of total penetrationand not a 12" neck... where did you get such a ridiculous idea?




The Ammo-oracle of course, look at the actual gel block test. It shows a 19" neck before yaw. I got the 12"+ from other posts. I'll test mk262 in wet news print for a comparison against other rnds. beforer I load up on the stuff. The long neck of 77 SMK is my only concern about using this ammo.



You NEED to read it again. It doesn't say that. The pictures don't show that.





Thanks for pointing out my error, it's apparantly a 6" neck.



Please show me where you see this.



I think he means this:


I believe, however, this is a pre-cannelure Sierra Match King 77gr.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 5:05:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Austrian:

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By HP40:

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By HP40:

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By HP40:
With a 12"+ neck how does 77 GR. SMK manage to damage anything, unless we're shooting at really fat people.



It has 12" of total penetrationand not a 12" neck... where did you get such a ridiculous idea?




The Ammo-oracle of course, look at the actual gel block test. It shows a 19" neck before yaw. I got the 12"+ from other posts. I'll test mk262 in wet news print for a comparison against other rnds. beforer I load up on the stuff. The long neck of 77 SMK is my only concern about using this ammo.



You NEED to read it again. It doesn't say that. The pictures don't show that.





Thanks for pointing out my error, it's apparantly a 6" neck.



Please show me where you see this.



I think he means this:
www.ammo-oracle.com/images/77grMKing.jpg

I believe, however, this is a pre-cannelure Sierra Match King 77gr.




That's were I got the idea of a long neck for 77 SMK. On my original reading I mistakingly assumed that the 12' marker was showing the lateral dispersement of bullet fragments. Thanks for calling me down on it. I don't want to spread mis-information on this board and would still like to know the average neck of MK262 before yaw if not 6".
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 5:12:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2005 5:21:34 PM EDT by brouhaha]
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 5:40:46 PM EDT
This site here, in session three, compares not just the 6.8 SPC, but the M855 rounds and the M262
77 grain Sierra in Gel tests. It is very interesting info!
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004arms/2004arms.html
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 7:06:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CaptSchofield:
This site here, in session three, compares not just the 6.8 SPC, but the M855 rounds and the M262
77 grain Sierra in Gel tests. It is very interesting info!
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004arms/2004arms.html



Excellent link. Thanks.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 7:11:55 PM EDT
Where is the best place to order BH 75/77 and any price check?


GTD
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 9:00:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
IIRC, 1.5-2"

I'll have to look at my notes to be sure.

Edit - 1.6" is what we at BTammolabs got from our tests.



Were those Hornady or Sierra?

Cannelure or not?
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 9:06:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GoldtopDude:
Where is the best place to order BH 75/77 and any price check?


GTD



www.northwestloading.com

www.cabelas.com
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 10:45:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 1:20:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
It was a bullet. Going fast. It did bad things to the gel.



Wow. The entire ammo oracle condensed into 3 short sentences. Only brouhaha could do that!
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 4:55:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:

Originally Posted By GoldtopDude:
Where is the best place to order BH 75/77 and any price check?


GTD



www.northwestloading.com



www.cabelas.com



Thanks much!
GTD
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 5:16:44 AM EDT
the most devastating 5.56 round? 7.62x51.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 5:57:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By Austrian:

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
IIRC, 1.5-2"

I'll have to look at my notes to be sure.

Edit - 1.6" is what we at BTammolabs got from our tests.



Were those Hornady or Sierra?

Cannelure or not?



Look, it's late. I've had a triple martini...

It was a bullet. Going fast. It did bad things to the gel.



Superb analysis.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 6:05:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By safetyhit:
I know most of the general stats and velocities, but after all is said and done, which is the best overall combat 5.56 round? By the way, I have read ammo-oracle, but I'm still not sure.



Read it again. It all depends on your requirements.

If you are planning on engaging bad guys from zero to 100 yards using a 14.5" to 16" barrel or longer with a twist rate no tighter than 1/9 then either Fed XM193 or Win Q3131A.




Same to you, the 68gr will be better then M193 or Q3131.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 6:13:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 6:14:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By safetyhit:

Originally Posted By AirCommando:

Originally Posted By 10mmPhil:
That bluetip incendiary 5.56 at gunshows must be the most devastating.


i23.photobucket.com/albums/b397/AirCommando/Incendiary.jpgi23.photobucket.com/albums/b397/AirCommando/.jpg



Strange, ammotogo sells this exact same HE incendiary, same package and all, and some in this forum say it is fake. I've bought alot from them, but never tried this stuff. Looks tempting.



It's advertised as HE, so it is fake, there is no such thing as an HE round in 5.56x45, if it was HE it would be an NFA item because it would be considered a DD. It's advertising designed to dupe idiots into thinking they are getting some super duper ammo.
Link Posted: 8/17/2005 6:47:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By glockguy40:
The one you are most accurate with.



Agreed! Anything you can put in the bad guy's brain is best.
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