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Posted: 7/23/2005 7:21:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2005 7:26:20 PM EDT by triburst1]
Just curious. I started off with a 45 grain HP, switched to a heavier 64 grain HP, and have now gone middle of the road with a 55 grain SP.

What do you choose and why?
Link Posted: 7/23/2005 7:31:03 PM EDT
Q3131.
Link Posted: 7/23/2005 7:33:50 PM EDT
Q3131
Link Posted: 7/23/2005 7:36:24 PM EDT
75 grain Black Hills
Link Posted: 7/23/2005 7:41:37 PM EDT
All my AR's are in the safe.

My home defense guns are:

Bounty Hunter side by side 12g
Mossberg 500 12g
Glock 23 Gen3 with NS and M-3 tactical light
S&W Model 60 3" .357
S&W Model 60 2" .357
Link Posted: 7/23/2005 7:46:06 PM EDT
XM193
Link Posted: 7/23/2005 8:09:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sysadmin:
All my AR's are in the safe.

My home defense guns are:

Bounty Hunter side by side 12g
Mossberg 500 12g
Glock 23 Gen3 with NS and M-3 tactical light
S&W Model 60 3" .357
S&W Model 60 2" .357



WHY??????????????????????????
Link Posted: 7/23/2005 8:21:12 PM EDT
I usually keep 75 gr TAP in a 30 rounder ready. But, just moved into a new apt (old one had cement walls) so I've bought some frangible .223 stuff but I dunno how it's going to work out. It's 45 gr and all my AR's are 1:7...
Link Posted: 7/23/2005 8:21:50 PM EDT
M196
Link Posted: 7/23/2005 9:21:36 PM EDT
62 grain Federal TRU
Link Posted: 7/23/2005 9:24:01 PM EDT
There is SS109 in my lightweight but my defensive weapons for home are 12ga buckshot in a Ithaca37 and .45 ball in a Colt Officers ACP.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 4:49:17 AM EDT
I'm another one with the AR's in the safe.

I keep a Benelli M1Super 90 or a Mossy 500 @ the ready with a Sig 226 9mm in the night stand.

But I keep a few mags of XM193 loaded in the safe with the AR's, Along with a few mags of Aussi 308 for the PTR-91 and M1A!
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 5:00:45 AM EDT
Black Hills 75gr BTHP.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 5:05:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JeepDriver:
I'm another one with the AR's in the safe.

I keep a Benelli M1Super 90 or a Mossy 500 @ the ready with a Sig 226 9mm in the night stand.

But I keep a few mags of XM193 loaded in the safe with the AR's, Along with a few mags of Aussi 308 for the PTR-91 and M1A!


+1 on the AR's.
00 Buckshot in my 870. All my mags are loaded with XM193.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 5:25:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 5:48:11 AM EDT
75 gr Hornaday TAP
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 5:58:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
Can't recommend an AR for a first line home defense gun.

The reasons are so numerous you could write a book on it from public opinion to safety.

Tj



9 out of 10 defensive experts and professional firearm trainers disagree.

I have an 870 with Surefire fore end, Speed Feed stock, extended mag, and side saddle that I keep loaded with #1 buck, but I will always go to the ARs first. There a far more reasons why a 5.56mm carbine is the best choice for home defense.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 6:31:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2005 6:32:17 AM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By triburst1:

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
Can't recommend an AR for a first line home defense gun.

The reasons are so numerous you could write a book on it from public opinion to safety.

Tj



9 out of 10 defensive experts and professional firearm trainers disagree.

I have an 870 with Surefire fore end, Speed Feed stock, extended mag, and side saddle that I keep loaded with #1 buck, but I will always go to the ARs first. There a far more reasons why a 5.56mm carbine is the best choice for home defense.




And of all those reasons, the biggest reason why I choose it, is because of familiarity, I can work that gun in total darkness because I'm so used to it. I think thats the biggest thing really, in the end the ballistics don't mean squat if you are not so familiar/comfortable with the weapon that you can't get a good hit. Of course we can all say oh I use this gun, but in reality you grab what is closest to you, which might not be that AR or that shotty, it may be the pistol that you can't shoot fer shit(honestly I can't, but I'm getting better, and at in the home distances, I can handle my own with it)
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 6:41:31 AM EDT
M-193 IMI
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 6:49:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By triburst1:

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
Can't recommend an AR for a first line home defense gun.

The reasons are so numerous you could write a book on it from public opinion to safety.

Tj



9 out of 10 defensive experts and professional firearm trainers disagree.

I have an 870 with Surefire fore end, Speed Feed stock, extended mag, and side saddle that I keep loaded with #1 buck, but I will always go to the ARs first. There a far more reasons why a 5.56mm carbine is the best choice for home defense.




And of all those reasons, the biggest reason why I choose it, is because of familiarity, I can work that gun in total darkness because I'm so used to it. I think thats the biggest thing really, in the end the ballistics don't mean squat if you are not so familiar/comfortable with the weapon that you can't get a good hit. Of course we can all say oh I use this gun, but in reality you grab what is closest to you, which might not be that AR or that shotty, it may be the pistol that you can't shoot fer shit(honestly I can't, but I'm getting better, and at in the home distances, I can handle my own with it)



Same reason here (11 years Active Army) - familiarity. And I keep 7 HK mags loaded with BH 75gr BTHP for Home Defense.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 7:24:25 AM EDT
M193.I'm not worried about over penatration at all....( That's what she say's anyway )
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 8:47:26 AM EDT
XM193

It's not the first thing I would grab, for reasons which don't have to apply to anyone else, but it is the 2nd.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 8:58:56 AM EDT
For the AR I usually keep a 20-rd mag loaded with MK262 clone handloads.
For the Kimber (my WTF-was-that gun) I keep Rem 230-gr Golden Sabers.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 9:14:17 AM EDT
Federal Tactical, 28 in mag and 28 in RediMag.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 12:24:18 PM EDT
75 grain TAP for the AR, BH 68 for the AK.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 1:06:47 PM EDT
M193 or recently, 55grn TAP
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 2:37:53 PM EDT
Hornady 75 grain HPBT handloaded with Vihtavouri powder into WW brass and CCI milspec primers.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 2:38:16 PM EDT


On my weapon at all times are two mags of XM193 ( MagCinch) and one mag of Federal TBBC 55gr (buttstock pouch)

XM193 for soft targets, TBBC for hard targets

Link Posted: 7/24/2005 3:23:14 PM EDT
AR(s): Q3131A, Hornady 75 grain TAP
AK: Norinco "Copper Washed" 7.62X39
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 3:52:07 PM EDT
M193 equivalent here.

The house gun has a 20rd mag with 18 rounds of South African M1A3 in it, plus a 30rd mag with 28 rounds of the same attached to the stock. I keep a 20rd in it so it's less likely to snag on something when I grab it.

I also keep a bag with six 30rd mags, each with 28rds of XM193 because I don't have any more South African.

I'll probably shoot that M1A3 soon, and then the house gun will be loaded with XM193.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 4:08:08 PM EDT
I would use my AR if I had to (loaded with XM193), but I would grab my 12ga coach gun first.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 4:17:22 PM EDT
AR with Surefire loaded with 30 M193 clones that I rolled myself.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 4:39:24 PM EDT
Hornady LE 75 grain TAP
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 4:40:00 PM EDT
75gr Hornady TAP BTHP
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 4:46:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dilbert_556:
AR with Surefire loaded with 30 M193 clones that I rolled myself.



I'm sure you already know but if I were you I would re think using your own rolled ammo and go with store bought ammo, God forbid you had to use it to protect yourself/family and had to defend your actions/choices in court; the last think you need is a over zealous prosecutor saying that you make your own ammo so it is more deadly. That is exactly what they will say if, god forbid
that day should ever come. Not trying to harp on you just giving what I think is sound advice.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 5:52:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dilbert_556:
AR with Surefire loaded with 30 M193 clones that I rolled myself.




I would rather be judged by 12 that carried by 6.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 5:58:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By repub18:
I would use my AR if I had to (loaded with XM193), but I would grab my 12ga coach gun first.



Please tell me you're joking. A coach gun????????????????
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 3:45:55 AM EDT
LakeCity greentips..........I don't give a fuck what a jury says as long as I come out of it alive.

If I don't, theres no problem Right?
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 6:40:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/25/2005 6:41:51 AM EDT by Keiler]
No AR here,

but I keep two 30rd mags DAG 55grs 5.56 loaded.
Its hot, accurate, rather easy to replenish, gilding metal jacket and waterproof.
I dont think I need/can reach out past 150m around here, maybe 200. So I guess its enough for self defense.


[edit]
Dont have the rifle out all the time. But mostly have a Glock 17 handy.
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 6:49:01 AM EDT
75gr TAP.
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 7:20:20 AM EDT
No options for 458 SOCOM, 50 AE, .50 Beowulf, 6.5 Grendel, or 6.8 SPC?
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 7:27:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WMHM4:

Originally Posted By Dilbert_556:
AR with Surefire loaded with 30 M193 clones that I rolled myself.



I'm sure you already know but if I were you I would re think using your own rolled ammo and go with store bought ammo, God forbid you had to use it to protect yourself/family and had to defend your actions/choices in court; the last think you need is a over zealous prosecutor saying that you make your own ammo so it is more deadly. That is exactly what they will say if, god forbid
that day should ever come. Not trying to harp on you just giving what I think is sound advice.



That is so teh ghey comment. No basis in reality.
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 10:12:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By WMHM4:

Originally Posted By Dilbert_556:
AR with Surefire loaded with 30 M193 clones that I rolled myself.



I'm sure you already know but if I were you I would re think using your own rolled ammo and go with store bought ammo, God forbid you had to use it to protect yourself/family and had to defend your actions/choices in court; the last think you need is a over zealous prosecutor saying that you make your own ammo so it is more deadly. That is exactly what they will say if, god forbid
that day should ever come. Not trying to harp on you just giving what I think is sound advice.



That is so teh ghey comment. No basis in reality.



Right, who is going to know they are reloads anyway? And who is gonna care?

I could just see the scene of the shooting. Picture this exchange.

Cops: What happened here?

Victim: Well, I was just going to bed and I heard glass shatter. I went to investigate and encountered these two armed guys in my living room. I had to shoot them.

Cops: Son, is that reloads you're using?

I mean really. The guy said he's using freaking FMJ. Nobody is likely going to ever check to see if the ammo is commercial loads or reloads and being it is FMJ, I don't see what consequence it would have anyway. There's just bigger fish to fry at the scene of a shooting. So unless you mention it yourself, nobody is likely going to know or care.

Link Posted: 7/25/2005 1:28:54 PM EDT
28 rounds in 2 mags coupled together on the gun, 3 more in a CQB solutions chest rig (if I have time to put it on). I just hope to hell I never have to use 5 mags to defend myself...


-sc
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 1:33:30 PM EDT
It's always loaded with 75gr TAP and fresh batteries in the Surefire.
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 1:53:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WMHM4:

Originally Posted By Dilbert_556:
AR with Surefire loaded with 30 M193 clones that I rolled myself.



I'm sure you already know but if I were you I would re think using your own rolled ammo and go with store bought ammo, God forbid you had to use it to protect yourself/family and had to defend your actions/choices in court; the last think you need is a over zealous prosecutor saying that you make your own ammo so it is more deadly. That is exactly what they will say if, god forbid
that day should ever come. Not trying to harp on you just giving what I think is sound advice.



My reloads shoot 55gr Hornady FMJBT's and I even use Mil surplus powder. They are loaded just a hair under M193 spec because that is what my rifle likes the best. I don't really see an issue in using them since I don't use anything super duper nasty in the mix. Thanks for your concern though!
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 1:59:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dilbert_556:

Originally Posted By WMHM4:

Originally Posted By Dilbert_556:
AR with Surefire loaded with 30 M193 clones that I rolled myself.



I'm sure you already know but if I were you I would re think using your own rolled ammo and go with store bought ammo, God forbid you had to use it to protect yourself/family and had to defend your actions/choices in court; the last think you need is a over zealous prosecutor saying that you make your own ammo so it is more deadly. That is exactly what they will say if, god forbid
that day should ever come. Not trying to harp on you just giving what I think is sound advice.



My reloads shoot 55gr Hornady FMJBT's and I even use Mil surplus powder. They are loaded just a hair under M193 spec because that is what my rifle likes the best. I don't really see an issue in using them since I don't use anything super duper nasty in the mix. Thanks for your concern though!



There is no issue, this is tossed around all the time as some sort of Gospel but no one can point
to ANY case where it ever had a bearing. Ayoob writes on this all the time, and he advises
against handloads only because of the general thought that factory loads are more reliable.

The idea is that the prosecutor could label you as a "gun nut" but it's never actually happened.

A good shoot is a good shoot, regardless of the weapon or ammo used.
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 4:13:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By WMHM4:

Originally Posted By Dilbert_556:
AR with Surefire loaded with 30 M193 clones that I rolled myself.



I'm sure you already know but if I were you I would re think using your own rolled ammo and go with store bought ammo, God forbid you had to use it to protect yourself/family and had to defend your actions/choices in court; the last think you need is a over zealous prosecutor saying that you make your own ammo so it is more deadly. That is exactly what they will say if, god forbid
that day should ever come. Not trying to harp on you just giving what I think is sound advice.



That is so teh ghey comment. No basis in reality.



Right, who is going to know they are reloads anyway? And who is gonna care?

I could just see the scene of the shooting. Picture this exchange.

Cops: What happened here?

Victim: Well, I was just going to bed and I heard glass shatter. I went to investigate and encountered these two armed guys in my living room. I had to shoot them.

Cops: Son, is that reloads you're using?

I mean really. The guy said he's using freaking FMJ. Nobody is likely going to ever check to see if the ammo is commercial loads or reloads and being it is FMJ, I don't see what consequence it would have anyway. There's just bigger fish to fry at the scene of a shooting. So unless you mention it yourself, nobody is likely going to know or care.




It's not likely but why would you want to risk that slight possiblity? I'd worry more about the civil suit. Prosecutors aren't too likely to worry about it but attorneys who are looking to take your house and guns away in a civil suit definately would! Anything to make you look worse they will use against you. Remember, the requirement to prove your guilt in a criminal case is "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" but the proof of guilt in a civil case is simply a "Preponderance of Evidence". What that means is that you have to have overwhelming proof in a criminal case but only 51% evidence in a civil case. That ammo issue could be that 1% needed to make the civil suit.

There is a reason that police departments use similar ammo and calibers. It is done to protect the departments in civil cases arrising from lawful shootings. They can bring in experts to testify that the ammo is commonly available to other agencies and that the ammo isn't out of the ordinary. It might not win the case but it's that much harder to win without that problem taken care of.



And before someone asks.....No I don't know of any actual cases either criminal or civil. Ask some attorneys. But, for the relatively low cost of factory ammo, I don't think it's worth it to load your own. I don't want to be that test case!! How about you??
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 4:16:17 PM EDT
M193 for me in mine.

Danny
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 4:30:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ColtRifle:

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By WMHM4:

Originally Posted By Dilbert_556:
AR with Surefire loaded with 30 M193 clones that I rolled myself.



I'm sure you already know but if I were you I would re think using your own rolled ammo and go with store bought ammo, God forbid you had to use it to protect yourself/family and had to defend your actions/choices in court; the last think you need is a over zealous prosecutor saying that you make your own ammo so it is more deadly. That is exactly what they will say if, god forbid
that day should ever come. Not trying to harp on you just giving what I think is sound advice.



That is so teh ghey comment. No basis in reality.



Right, who is going to know they are reloads anyway? And who is gonna care?

I could just see the scene of the shooting. Picture this exchange.

Cops: What happened here?

Victim: Well, I was just going to bed and I heard glass shatter. I went to investigate and encountered these two armed guys in my living room. I had to shoot them.

Cops: Son, is that reloads you're using?

I mean really. The guy said he's using freaking FMJ. Nobody is likely going to ever check to see if the ammo is commercial loads or reloads and being it is FMJ, I don't see what consequence it would have anyway. There's just bigger fish to fry at the scene of a shooting. So unless you mention it yourself, nobody is likely going to know or care.




It's not likely but why would you want to risk that slight possiblity? I'd worry more about the civil suit. Prosecutors aren't too likely to worry about it but attorneys who are looking to take your house and guns away in a civil suit definately would! Anything to make you look worse they will use against you. Remember, the requirement to prove your guilt in a criminal case is "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" but the proof of guilt in a civil case is simply a "Preponderance of Evidence". What that means is that you have to have overwhelming proof in a criminal case but only 51% evidence in a civil case. That ammo issue could be that 1% needed to make the civil suit.

There is a reason that police departments use similar ammo and calibers. It is done to protect the departments in civil cases arrising from lawful shootings. They can bring in experts to testify that the ammo is commonly available to other agencies and that the ammo isn't out of the ordinary. It might not win the case but it's that much harder to win without that problem taken care of.



And before someone asks.....No I don't know of any actual cases either criminal or civil. Ask some attorneys. But, for the relatively low cost of factory ammo, I don't think it's worth it to load your own. I don't want to be that test case!! How about you??



HOW WILL THEY KNOW UNLESS YOU TELL THEM? You think some crack head/thief's family has the money to hire private investigators and ballistics experts who would actually find out that it was a reloaded round? Wow, you must have some really wealthy burglars to afford such detailed ballistcs analysis and investigative teams. Come back to planet Earth please.

Please stop the paranoid internet rumor BS, legal paranoia and all around cowardice. I get sick of this kind of thought process being spread around the net. It reeks of pseudo legal experts who are about as much an attorney as the people who listen to them are warriors. I can almost guarntee this line of thought originated in a gun magazine by some author with too much time on his hands imagining how the legal system works and wishing he took that LSAT back in college.
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 5:14:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ColtRifle:

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By WMHM4:

Originally Posted By Dilbert_556:
AR with Surefire loaded with 30 M193 clones that I rolled myself.



I'm sure you already know but if I were you I would re think using your own rolled ammo and go with store bought ammo, God forbid you had to use it to protect yourself/family and had to defend your actions/choices in court; the last think you need is a over zealous prosecutor saying that you make your own ammo so it is more deadly. That is exactly what they will say if, god forbid
that day should ever come. Not trying to harp on you just giving what I think is sound advice.



That is so teh ghey comment. No basis in reality.



Right, who is going to know they are reloads anyway? And who is gonna care?

I could just see the scene of the shooting. Picture this exchange.

Cops: What happened here?

Victim: Well, I was just going to bed and I heard glass shatter. I went to investigate and encountered these two armed guys in my living room. I had to shoot them.

Cops: Son, is that reloads you're using?

I mean really. The guy said he's using freaking FMJ. Nobody is likely going to ever check to see if the ammo is commercial loads or reloads and being it is FMJ, I don't see what consequence it would have anyway. There's just bigger fish to fry at the scene of a shooting. So unless you mention it yourself, nobody is likely going to know or care.




It's not likely but why would you want to risk that slight possiblity? I'd worry more about the civil suit. Prosecutors aren't too likely to worry about it but attorneys who are looking to take your house and guns away in a civil suit definately would! Anything to make you look worse they will use against you. Remember, the requirement to prove your guilt in a criminal case is "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" but the proof of guilt in a civil case is simply a "Preponderance of Evidence". What that means is that you have to have overwhelming proof in a criminal case but only 51% evidence in a civil case. That ammo issue could be that 1% needed to make the civil suit.

There is a reason that police departments use similar ammo and calibers. It is done to protect the departments in civil cases arrising from lawful shootings. They can bring in experts to testify that the ammo is commonly available to other agencies and that the ammo isn't out of the ordinary. It might not win the case but it's that much harder to win without that problem taken care of.



And before someone asks.....No I don't know of any actual cases either criminal or civil. Ask some attorneys. But, for the relatively low cost of factory ammo, I don't think it's worth it to load your own. I don't want to be that test case!! How about you??



What ColtRifle posted is pretty much what I meant. I have read all of the M. Ayoob articles about what could happen or what has happen to defendents in a criminal/civil csae. I don't know of a documented case where the prosecutor went after a person for using handloads but if they had the chance they certainly would. Prosecutors have used far less and reaching things like hollowpoints or the fact that a person used a sub compact Glock. They certainly would use the handload thing and wether it is mildly loaded or not they will make it sound like it is the deadliest ammo in the world.

I would also rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 but if I am using a paticular weapon for HD/PD I will definetly only load it will factory ammo. There are just too many negatives and zero positives to use handloads for HD/PD. I'm not saying I wouldn't use a gun that was loaded with handloads to save my life but I certainly would not intentionally load a HD/PD gun with them.

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