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Posted: 11/18/2011 5:38:48 AM EDT
A thought came to me today while reading a post on another website. The question asked was "Do You Own an AR15 Rifle?".

I love the reply on post #139:
"I am at two now a 556x45 stag 24" 6H flat top and a 7.62x40 20" ss flat top both shoot dime size at 200 the 556 will do dime size at 500-600 so no complaints here "

Really, dime size groups at 500-600. Are you talking inches or yards??? I know it's the internet and most of these guys can shoot sub .25 MOA all day long with iron sights and cheap ammo, IF they do their part... Give me a break! I would love to meet these people and shoot them with their sub .1 MOA rifles!

Ok, back to reality. What kind of accuracy do you expect from your precision rigs (hunting, bench, match, etc...) For me it's 1 moa. I handload and most of the rifles I own have a "magic" load that will usually do this. Some will even do a little better.
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 5:45:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2011 5:45:39 AM EDT by reelserious]
AR 3/4 MOA

Bolt 1/2 moa

I am too spastic to shoot much better.

Link Posted: 11/18/2011 5:47:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2011 5:48:40 AM EDT by mathecb]
I strive for MOA accuracy on all my hunting and precision bolt action rifles and gas guns. Some are capable of .5 MOA, some only 2 MOA. My AR that is setup for precision shooting has a 20" WOA SDM barrel and will do around MOA with 77gr. handloads. At 400 yards my groups average 4-5 inches. I havent really played with it to squeeze every ounce of accuracy though. I do eventually want to build a AR thats capable of very good accuracy but bolt guns seem to do it easier.
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 5:49:29 AM EDT
It's amazing how these guys who claim to get accuracy out of their rifles that would make competitive benchrest shooters jealous never actually show up for matches. I think ~1 MOA is fair for a decent AR shooting decent ammo. Plenty of good rifles with match ammo will easily dip into the .5 MOA range when people shoot them off benches, but that is pretty boring. Get those same people and rifles and ammo out into a field setting and I bet they'd be lucky to see 1 MOA.
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 5:58:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2011 7:26:32 AM EDT by J75player]
DPMS REPR in .260rem with a custom Kreiger bbl
handloaded 140gr Berger VLDs
5 shot group at 100yards

same thing at 500yards


no one is going to shoot a dime everytime at 500, but at 100 it can happen.
an average rifle should shoot around 1MOA, a higher end rifle i would expect to be between 1-.75 MOA.
sometimes an off the shelf rifle will just happen to shoot better then .75moa, but it is by no means the norm.
an average "precision" rifle should shoot between .75-.5moa. an above average "precision" rifle will shoot under .5moa
getting to .75moa is fairly easy to do, but everything under that is bought in thousendths of an inch.
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 8:00:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2011 11:17:37 AM EDT by dcs12345]
I am happy when my bolt guns are around .75 MOA with 5 or more shots and 1 MOA for ARs. Anything below that gets hard for me to do.
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 8:24:19 AM EDT
Larue Stealth w/ handloads––- 0.5-0.75moa... I can personally get 0.8moa groups out of it... I'm sure it is still better than me...

I expect sub MOA out of my precision guns... bolt or semi...

Though I am not the best shot, I can hold my own on a good day... as few and far in between they are...
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 10:19:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2011 10:20:12 AM EDT by FMJ]
sub MOA for my bolt actions

1 MOA for a AR15 with SS barrel ( NO 5rd group)

Link Posted: 11/18/2011 10:25:01 AM EDT
at 100 yards I expect 1/2 MOA or less out of my stag model 6 upper with the crappy bulk 55 gr federal stuff.

my expectations grow in size as the target increases it's distance from me. at 300 yards i'm happy if i'm keeping all the holes within 3 inches of eachother on that same bulk ammo... with nice match grade ammo i expect just a little over 1 MOA when i'm shooting well and there's no wind at that disance
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 10:52:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2011 10:53:35 AM EDT by offroader1006]
They shoot better than me.

The top one in this group was obviously my fault. With the stock trigger, it's tough to get a steady group with that much creep.



This is 100yards with my 24" ER Shaw barrel using Federal 77 gr Gold Match. My Stag 6.8 16" will do almost as well with SSA Barnes 85gr, although I havent shot groups with it since I sighted the scope in.

Anything past 200 yards, and I am lucky to get a hole that touches another.
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 11:09:27 AM EDT
About 1/2 MOA with my SPR shooting reloads on a good day. Most days I cant seem to do much better than 1 MOA.
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 11:28:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By IbuildedIT:
at 100 yards I expect 1/2 MOA or less out of my stag model 6 upper with the crappy bulk 55 gr federal stuff.

my expectations grow in size as the target increases it's distance from me. at 300 yards i'm happy if i'm keeping all the holes within 3 inches of eachother on that same bulk ammo... with nice match grade ammo i expect just a little over 1 MOA when i'm shooting well and there's no wind at that disance


Please tell me this is not serious.
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 11:33:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dogue:
Originally Posted By IbuildedIT:
at 100 yards I expect 1/2 MOA or less out of my stag model 6 upper with the crappy bulk 55 gr federal stuff.

my expectations grow in size as the target increases it's distance from me. at 300 yards i'm happy if i'm keeping all the holes within 3 inches of eachother on that same bulk ammo... with nice match grade ammo i expect just a little over 1 MOA when i'm shooting well and there's no wind at that disance


Please tell me this is not serious.



must be using the Minute of Asshole scale.
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 12:07:35 PM EDT
should be able to put 5 rounds into .6-.8 MOA on a good range day with 77gr SMK handloads in a Larue Stealth 18" and 3-9x from a bipod
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 12:30:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteelonSteel:
Originally Posted By Dogue:
Originally Posted By IbuildedIT:
at 100 yards I expect 1/2 MOA or less out of my stag model 6 upper with the crappy bulk 55 gr federal stuff.

my expectations grow in size as the target increases it's distance from me. at 300 yards i'm happy if i'm keeping all the holes within 3 inches of eachother on that same bulk ammo... with nice match grade ammo i expect just a little over 1 MOA when i'm shooting well and there's no wind at that disance


Please tell me this is not serious.



must be using the Minute of Asshole scale.


I just read that post like 5x to see if I was missing something. Must be the guy's brother from my original post!
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 1:04:49 PM EDT
If I can shoot minute of man, its accurate enough for me.
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 1:13:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Airborne_Infantryman:
If I can shoot minute of man, its accurate enough for me.


I prefer minute of broad side of barn...


Link Posted: 11/18/2011 1:30:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2011 1:50:51 PM EDT by SpringArm]
I have an 18" Noveske upper and a Sabre 18" upper and I am please with Just under 1.25 " at 100 yards. The great thing is that I can usually get sub 3" groups at 300 yards (all using 77g hand loads and 10 shot groups).

My S&W OR can do 1.25" at 100, but struggles to get 5" at 300. (all groups are 10 shots)

I once shot with a guy who had a precision 16" stainless and at 300 yards shot 5 shots into about 6". When we walked to the target, he proclaimed, "I'm happy. As long as it shoots MOA, I'm satisfied."

I believe that if you actually have an AR capable of 10 shot MOA groups, you have a real keeper.....I also feel that they are rare indeed once you put a measurement on the group.

I have shot with dozens of people who claim MOA groups that wouldn't know MOA if it bit them on the be-hind!

(ETA...I have dozens of 3 shot groups that will measure .5" or less but neither me nor my rifles are capable of that accuracy consistently. If you can consistently shoot sub MOA 3 shot groups then you can consistently shoot sub MOA 10 shot groups. I believe what you will find is that if you shoot multiple 3 shot groups your individual 3 shot groups will actually combine to a much larger 10+ shot group.)
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 1:50:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2011 1:50:41 PM EDT by Airborne_Infantryman]
Originally Posted By Jester316:
Originally Posted By Airborne_Infantryman:
If I can shoot minute of man, its accurate enough for me.


I prefer minute of broad side of barn...




Not sure if serious....

Link Posted: 11/18/2011 2:42:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By reelserious:
AR 3/4 MOA

Bolt 1/2 moa

I am too spastic to shoot much better.



This is about where I am...If I get more I am happy.
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 3:02:19 PM EDT
For my goto rifle, minute of man is good enough for 300 yards. I've never even benched it to see what it can do.

For my precision AR, I've finally gotten about .5 MOA with handloads, but only out to 100 yards. I haven't stretched it farther, and am sure the group size will increase. I'm hoping it will stay below 1 MOA out to 500 yards. I'd be happy with that.

Link Posted: 11/18/2011 3:31:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By engineer201:
Originally Posted By reelserious:
AR 3/4 MOA

Bolt 1/2 moa

I am too spastic to shoot much better.



This is about where I am...If I get more I am happy.


+1, except I don't build precision bolt guns. They are hunting rifles. I once thought, if I can't get 5 shots inside an inch at 100 yards with most any gun I have, I'd get rid of it. Then, I realized a 17hmr is too susceptable to wind, a stock Ruger 10/22 isn't going to shoot MOA out fo the box, and a Marlin lever action isn't going to either. I excuse those rifles from my expectations of MOA. My Factory Sako 270 will shoot multiple factory loads easily under MOA, and my son's factory Remington Model 7 will out shoot my Sako. My RRA heavy Wilde Chambered AR will outshoot either. It's a heavy rifle for hunting, so I went with a Spike's 18" LW-50 SPR build. It's much lighter than the RRA, but I've only found one load that it really likes, and I don't have a supply of it. I know it and another Spike's stainless build I have will shoot better than MOA, but I'm on the hunt for a reasonably priced factory load under $.50/round that I can use for hunting. Below is what the 18" Spike's SPR build can do at 100 yards. The only round of the five shots not touching was the first fired from a clean barrel.



Link Posted: 11/18/2011 3:45:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2011 3:46:50 PM EDT by reelserious]
Originally Posted By JameyF:
Originally Posted By engineer201:
Originally Posted By reelserious:
AR 3/4 MOA

Bolt 1/2 moa

I am too spastic to shoot much better.



This is about where I am...If I get more I am happy.


+1, except I don't build precision bolt guns. They are hunting rifles. I once thought, if I can't get 5 shots inside an inch at 100 yards with most any gun I have, I'd get rid of it. Then, I realized a 17hmr is too susceptable to wind, a stock Ruger 10/22 isn't going to shoot MOA out fo the box, and a Marlin lever action isn't going to either. I excuse those rifles from my expectations of MOA. My Factory Sako 270 will shoot multiple factory loads easily under MOA, and my son's factory Remington Model 7 will out shoot my Sako. My RRA heavy Wilde Chambered AR will outshoot either. It's a heavy rifle for hunting, so I went with a Spike's 18" LW-50 SPR build. It's much lighter than the RRA, but I've only found one load that it really likes, and I don't have a supply of it. I know it and another Spike's stainless build I have will shoot better than MOA, but I'm on the hunt for a reasonably priced factory load under $.50/round that I can use for hunting. Below is what the 18" Spike's SPR build can do at 100 yards. The only round of the five shots not touching was the first fired from a clean barrel.

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o306/JameyF/FederalPremium-cropped.jpg






My two bolt guns are Remington 700 HBAR free floated. One .308 and one .243. I have put three shots in the same hole a couple of times with each gun but the next two usually open the group up to 1/2 inch. I usually can put 10 shots in about 3/4 inch at 100 yards. I can keep both under 5 inches at 500 yards with my best 10 shot group with the .243 3.5 inches at 500 yards. I have a Leupold 25x scope on that one. All with handloads. As an interesting note factory ammo only shoots about 1 moa for me.


All groups benchrest off bipod.
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 3:59:59 PM EDT
I have an upper I built using a Noveske 18" SPR barell. It will easily shoot groups under 1" at 100 yards, most of which will be touching each other, I have yet to have the opportunity to strech it out, but plan to this year. This upper is way more accurate than me. I am not one to exagerate. I have several uppers and this is the only one I will claim this kind of accuracy out of. My most recent bolt gun will probably out-perform it, but it is extremly accurate as far as I'm concerned. I won't tell you that it will shoot the dick off a field nouse at a zillion yards, but this thing will out-do my skills any day of the week. This is coming from a guy who happily shoots man sized targets all the time, and is not really concerned with shooting bugholes..........
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 4:11:59 PM EDT
I'm not smiling unless I shoot MOA or better. Unfortunately most factory FMJ ammo isn't capable of that. (especially 5.56). But there is a lot of match, V-max and HP ammo that will consistently shoot sub MOA out of the right gun. Too bad it's usually more expensive than the bulk stuff but I guess you get what you pay for.

-Cody
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 6:30:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 6:31:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 6:39:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By IbuildedIT:
at 100 yards I expect 1/2 MOA or less out of my stag model 6 upper with the crappy bulk 55 gr federal stuff.

my expectations grow in size as the target increases it's distance from me. at 300 yards i'm happy if i'm keeping all the holes within 3 inches of eachother on that same bulk ammo... with nice match grade ammo i expect just a little over 1 MOA when i'm shooting well and there's no wind at that disance


i think you are missinformed as to the measurments of "MOA"
you just said that "nice match grade ammo" shoots WORSE then the bulk ammo....
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 6:55:42 PM EDT
My RRA LAR-8 (.308) with a Tasco scope turns in .5" - .7" with brown box M118LR and my handloads get down to about .4" at 100yds. My WOA 6.5 PacNor Service Rifle shoots just under 1" at 100 yds with irons and MK262 Mod 1.

Here is my best group with the LAR:



Here is the WOA Service Rifle....Sorry, no picture of the group:


Link Posted: 11/18/2011 9:08:18 PM EDT
people seem to forget just how good 1moa out of a ten shot group is at 100 yards. i'm exstatic with my 20" free floated SS wilson match barrel that shoots .75 moa with good commercial ammo at 100 yards. if it werent for one or two flyers out of a ten shot group, it'd be a 1/2 moa barrel. of course i'm shooting it from a rest where there is no movement whatsever on my part, so its literally mechanical accuracy i'm reporting, not me behind this thing prone or offhand.
Link Posted: 11/18/2011 11:16:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By IbuildedIT:
at 100 yards I expect 12 MOA or less out of my stag model 6 upper with the crappy bulk 55 gr federal stuff.

my expectations grow in size as the target increases it's distance from me. at 300 yards i'm happy if i'm keeping all the holes within 3 inches of eachother on that same bulk ammo... with nice match grade ammo i expect just a little over 1 MOA when i'm shooting well and there's no wind at that disance


fixed it for you
Link Posted: 11/19/2011 6:39:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EL_TIRADOR:
My RRA LAR-8 (.308) with a Tasco scope turns in .5" - .7" with brown box M118LR and my handloads get down to about .4" at 100yds. My WOA 6.5 PacNor Service Rifle shoots just under 1" at 100 yds with irons and MK262 Mod 1.

Here is my best group with the LAR:
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh196/AFMarksman/Shooting/LAR8Group.jpg


Here is the WOA Service Rifle....Sorry, no picture of the group:
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh196/AFMarksman/USAF%20Rifle%20Team/Camp%20Perry%202010/DSC_0437.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh196/AFMarksman/Signature.jpg



WOA built with a PacNor barrel? Whats the 6.5?

Link Posted: 11/19/2011 8:24:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jasonprox700:
Ok, back to reality. What kind of accuracy do you expect from your precision rigs (hunting, bench, match, etc...) For me it's 1 moa. I handload and most of the rifles I own have a "magic" load that will usually do this. Some will even do a little better.


I'm happy with a 2 moa 10 round group. I have done as well as just under 1 moa in a 10 rd group but not every time. When plinking with surplus I'm pleased with 3 moa. If I don't drink any coffee and my blood sugar is not to high (it effects vision) I can shoot an occasional .5 moa three round group from a few select rifles, but it's not the norm. I mostly shoot at steels and if I hear a hit, I'm happy.

I've met a few guys from local forums that claimed to have .5 moa rifles and skillz. When meeting up with these marksmen at the local range I would learn the decimal point in .5 was on the wrong side of the 5.

Another thing I've learned is the difference in rifle range yards and internet yards.

Link Posted: 11/19/2011 9:35:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mathecb:
Originally Posted By EL_TIRADOR:
My RRA LAR-8 (.308) with a Tasco scope turns in .5" - .7" with brown box M118LR and my handloads get down to about .4" at 100yds. My WOA 6.5 PacNor Service Rifle shoots just under 1" at 100 yds with irons and MK262 Mod 1.

Here is my best group with the LAR:
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh196/AFMarksman/Shooting/LAR8Group.jpg


Here is the WOA Service Rifle....Sorry, no picture of the group:
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh196/AFMarksman/USAF%20Rifle%20Team/Camp%20Perry%202010/DSC_0437.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh196/AFMarksman/Signature.jpg



WOA built with a PacNor barrel? Whats the 6.5?


My Service Rifle Upper was built by White Oak Armament (WOA) using a Pac-Nor 1:6.5 twist rate. I went with the 1:6.5 vs a 1:7 twist because I was working on a 90gr load for long range shooting. Hope this clarifies....
Link Posted: 11/19/2011 9:45:02 AM EDT
For a normal high quality rifle I expect ~1moa . This pic is of a 16" 5.45 upper with 30-40 year old russian surplus, typically shoots between .6moa to 1.2moa with cheap crappy ammo



For a precision rifle I expect ~.5moa with the ammo that it likes if the shooter does their part.

Link Posted: 11/19/2011 10:02:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EL_TIRADOR:
Originally Posted By mathecb:
Originally Posted By EL_TIRADOR:
My RRA LAR-8 (.308) with a Tasco scope turns in .5" - .7" with brown box M118LR and my handloads get down to about .4" at 100yds. My WOA 6.5 PacNor Service Rifle shoots just under 1" at 100 yds with irons and MK262 Mod 1.

Here is my best group with the LAR:
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh196/AFMarksman/Shooting/LAR8Group.jpg


Here is the WOA Service Rifle....Sorry, no picture of the group:
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh196/AFMarksman/USAF%20Rifle%20Team/Camp%20Perry%202010/DSC_0437.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh196/AFMarksman/Signature.jpg



WOA built with a PacNor barrel? Whats the 6.5?


My Service Rifle Upper was built by White Oak Armament (WOA) using a Pac-Nor 1:6.5 twist rate. I went with the 1:6.5 vs a 1:7 twist because I was working on a 90gr load for long range shooting. Hope this clarifies....


Oh ok. Got ya.
Link Posted: 11/19/2011 10:18:27 AM EDT
I have a friend I go to the range with regularly who is a better shot than I and more consistent as well. He has been able to keep groups down to 1MOA with my precision AR15. With me behind the trigger it's more like 1.5MOA.

1MOA is definitely acceptable performance IMO and meets my expectation for my precision AR's accuracy. I could use some practice though.
Link Posted: 11/19/2011 2:55:12 PM EDT
The realistic accuracy claims by almost all in this thread is refreshing. We have all got a chuckle from the amusing claims of many across the Internet that we all know are utter BS. lol!

As for the OPs question I expect sub MOA out of my accuracy geared ARs with good ammo and conditions. These are normally just 5 shot groups though. Sometimes it's better, sometimes it's worse depending on the variables.

Funny thing is one of my best performing rifles is one that doesn't have much of an investment in it. Just luck of the draw. It's an old 20 something year old Bushy with a 24" fluted chromelined barrel and plain A2 flash hider. I built it using the old style V Match upper with the bolted on rail section creating a "flat top". Plain out of the bin semi auto BCG. A2 stock. Cheap one piece screw on float tube installed with an oil filter wrench. I did throw on a Jewell trigger and a better grip. It doesn't shoot "dime sized groups at 600 yards" but it pulls of a few at 100.
Link Posted: 11/19/2011 4:45:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2011 6:48:56 AM EDT by Bigjohn141ok]
I recently finished a custom 20" AR build with a Kreiger barrel and was expecting 3/4 moa at 100 yards and was hoping for 1/2 moa. Well as of right now it will do about 5/8 moa all day with factory ammo so that 1/2 moa, or better, might be possible with hand loads and if I do my part. My best 5 shot group so far is .608 MOA
Link Posted: 11/19/2011 5:35:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By J75player:
DPMS REPR in .260rem with a custom Kreiger bbl
handloaded 140gr Berger VLDs
5 shot group at 100yards
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c183/J75player/shooting/P1090988a.jpg
same thing at 500yards
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c183/J75player/5shot.jpg

no one is going to shoot a dime everytime at 500, but at 100 it can happen.
an average rifle should shoot around 1MOA, a higher end rifle i would expect to be between 1-.75 MOA.
sometimes an off the shelf rifle will just happen to shoot better then .75moa, but it is by no means the norm.
an average "precision" rifle should shoot between .75-.5moa. an above average "precision" rifle will shoot under .5moa
getting to .75moa is fairly easy to do, but everything under that is bought in thousendths of an inch.


I have a DPMS LR308 that will sometimes shoot a .5 MOA 5-shot group at 100 yards, but not consistently enough for me to call it a ".5 MOA rifle". But it's consistent enough that if it's over 1MOA, I know it's the ammo or me, and not the rifle. I am satisfied with that for a $1200 rifle, but if I spent the money on a Krieger, I would expect more. My current 5.56 ARs are both chome-lined, and neither will consistently shoot under 1 MOA, but I had two Colts that would (Match Target Tactical Elite and Match H-bar). The only one of those that has ever shot a .5 group for me is the DPMS (surprising, but true). So I suppose 1 MOA would be the minimum standard for me with stainless or chromoly AR, and 1.5 MOA for a chrome lined. I am talking about match ammo here....obviously those groups will open up with cheap ammo.
Link Posted: 11/19/2011 6:02:33 PM EDT
My free float rigs. About 3/4 moa on a average. It depends on which loads I get to play with.
Link Posted: 11/19/2011 6:28:33 PM EDT
How about 20 shot groups with a hot barrel and a stock trigger? The bullseye and the two lower squares were my POA. Top group is BVAC 69gr hollowpoints, my DPMS 18" barrels favorite factory load so far

Link Posted: 11/19/2011 7:01:35 PM EDT
I'm curious when I see people post 1 pic of their best group and then say to ignore the flyer why don't they just shoot another group? If the gun is that good why can't it just do it again? I don't really consider taking the best of 4 out of 5 shots a true representation of a guns capabilities. Multiple 5 shots groups is a lot more realistic of what a gun shoots, not one single group excluding the rounds outside of the smaller group. Just my 2 cents.

-Cody
Link Posted: 11/19/2011 7:34:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2011 7:41:43 PM EDT by IbuildedIT]
Originally Posted By J75player:
Originally Posted By IbuildedIT:
at 100 yards I expect 1/2 MOA or less out of my stag model 6 upper with the crappy bulk 55 gr federal stuff.

my expectations grow in size as the target increases it's distance from me. at 300 yards i'm happy if i'm keeping all the holes within 3 inches of eachother on that same bulk ammo... with nice match grade ammo i expect just a little over 1 MOA when i'm shooting well and there's no wind at that disance


i think you are missinformed as to the measurments of "MOA"
you just said that "nice match grade ammo" shoots WORSE then the bulk ammo....



maybe i am confused about what MOA equals in inches. i can make pretty much 1 ragged hole with the 69 grain match king at 100 yards (3-5shot group) . with the 55 gr stuff if i take my time i can put sub 1.5 inch groups up pretty easily at 100 yards.out past 100 yards the groups open up rapidly with the 55 gr stuff. but with the 69 grain stuff it stays pretty close...maybe 2 inches at the most.


this is out of a 24" bull barrel and a bipod. big heavy varmint rig built to punch paper and little critters. it's damn accurate even with the shitty bulk stuff at 100 yards and less.
Link Posted: 11/19/2011 8:32:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2011 8:34:57 PM EDT by Fireman9080]
I've got a Bushy Hbar, and a S&W Sport. I don't want to turn this into a Sport debate, but they put a really nice barrel in them. Melonite, 5R 16''. It's 1/8, and the Bushy is 1/9. The Bushy will shoot right over an inch, with 55 Fed. Premium SMK's, and the S&W has shot just under an inch with 77 Fed. Prem. SMK's. These are both 5 round, best case deals. I can regularly shoot either 2 moa, out to 300, 10 shot groups. In my short lived experience(4 years with AR's), I have had AR's that would shoot great at 100, but shit the bed once you stretched them out a little. Maybe I am better now, maybe they sucked a little. Who knows. 9080
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 5:15:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By IbuildedIT:
Originally Posted By J75player:
Originally Posted By IbuildedIT:
at 100 yards I expect 1/2 MOA or less out of my stag model 6 upper with the crappy bulk 55 gr federal stuff.

my expectations grow in size as the target increases it's distance from me. at 300 yards i'm happy if i'm keeping all the holes within 3 inches of eachother on that same bulk ammo... with nice match grade ammo i expect just a little over 1 MOA when i'm shooting well and there's no wind at that disance


i think you are missinformed as to the measurments of "MOA"
you just said that "nice match grade ammo" shoots WORSE then the bulk ammo....



maybe i am confused about what MOA equals in inches. i can make pretty much 1 ragged hole with the 69 grain match king at 100 yards (3-5shot group) . with the 55 gr stuff if i take my time i can put sub 1.5 inch groups up pretty easily at 100 yards.out past 100 yards the groups open up rapidly with the 55 gr stuff. but with the 69 grain stuff it stays pretty close...maybe 2 inches at the most.


this is out of a 24" bull barrel and a bipod. big heavy varmint rig built to punch paper and little critters. it's damn accurate even with the shitty bulk stuff at 100 yards and less.


generaly, groups are measured center to center of the two furthest apart.
1 MOA is a little over an inch, but most people simplify it to just an inch. as you increase the range, the inches it represents multiplies.
if your group is 1 inch at 100yds=1MOA
if your rifle shoots 1MOA at 300 yards, that is a 3inch gorup.
a 1/2 inch group at 100 yards =.5MOA
if your rifle shoots .5MOA at 300 yards that is a 1.5in group
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 5:18:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DRJH1999:
How about 20 shot groups with a hot barrel and a stock trigger? The bullseye and the two lower squares were my POA. Top group is BVAC 69gr hollowpoints, my DPMS 18" barrels favorite factory load so far

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e324/Metzger888/2011-10-15_10-29-06_149.jpg


An honest man!!!! Thank you for not throwing out the "pulled" shots and "fliers".

Actually you do have a few sub .5" groups in the mix. I used to use terms like "pulled" and "flier", until I realized they happened all too often.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 5:19:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cody47:
I'm curious when I see people post 1 pic of their best group and then say to ignore the flyer why don't they just shoot another group? If the gun is that good why can't it just do it again? I don't really consider taking the best of 4 out of 5 shots a true representation of a guns capabilities. Multiple 5 shots groups is a lot more realistic of what a gun shoots, not one single group excluding the rounds outside of the smaller group. Just my 2 cents.

-Cody


QFT!!!!!!
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 5:26:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DRJH1999:
How about 20 shot groups with a hot barrel and a stock trigger? The bullseye and the two lower squares were my POA. Top group is BVAC 69gr hollowpoints, my DPMS 18" barrels favorite factory load so far

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e324/Metzger888/2011-10-15_10-29-06_149.jpg


That's good shooting.

Most all of these rifles are capable of moa or better, the shooter is the limiting factor.

I know a local guy that shot over a hundred three shoot groups on fresh paper so he could have a few photo's of his groups

Link Posted: 11/20/2011 6:22:04 AM EDT
This is what I expect with crappy ammo...in this case non-NATO stamped Bosnian SS109.

Ten rounds


Thirty rounds


Those groups are rapid fired and I love that they stay consistent regardless of round count. That's the beauty of my H-Bar...if you don't mind carrying a nearly 12lb rifle

It'll shoot about 1/4 MOA better with LC M855, and has done the odd sub-MOA five-round group with that stuff. Some day when I have a better ammo budget I'd like to get some match ammo and really see what it can do.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 6:25:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2011 6:25:55 AM EDT by rgerh]
Originally Posted By SpringArm:
Originally Posted By DRJH1999:
How about 20 shot groups with a hot barrel and a stock trigger? The bullseye and the two lower squares were my POA. Top group is BVAC 69gr hollowpoints, my DPMS 18" barrels favorite factory load so far

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e324/Metzger888/2011-10-15_10-29-06_149.jpg


An honest man!!!! Thank you for not throwing out the "pulled" shots and "fliers".

Actually you do have a few sub .5" groups in the mix. I used to use terms like "pulled" and "flier", until I realized they happened all too often.



Amen Brother what a honest reply
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