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Posted: 9/8/2021 12:15:41 PM EDT
EDIT: Apologies if this is off-topic for a technical forum. Can an admin move this to GD? (I don't appear to have that power. Motivated by this comment.)

UPDATE AS OF 2021-09-14: 80percentarms.com has reassured me that they have canceled my order and issued a full refund. In addition, their customer service rep has shipped my the products they had in stock at the time, despite issuing me a refund. I interpret this as a kindness, and hopefully a sign that my fears of insolvency are unfounded. I will probably ship the items back to 80percentarms.com. I'm grateful for the gesture, but getting something for nothing never feels right to me.

SUMMARY: I placed an order with 80percentarms.com several months ago. They charged my card immediately, knowing that my goods would not ship for months. In the mean time, I have tried to cancel my order for a refund. 80percentarms.com has flat out refused. They appear to be doing everything in their power to avoid giving me back my money, including going out of their way to ship me (now) unwanted goods. In many cases, they will not even acknowledge my many, many requests to cancel. It is mind boggling. The only thing I can think of that would explain such obstinance is that the company can't refund me, but is scared to admit that.

Also, I don't need help navigating my situation with 80percentarms.com. I have that handled. I'm posting here as a warning to others and to invite anyone with knowledge of the health of that company or its dealings with the ATF to come forward and surface details.

Background:


I had an order pending with 80% Arms  for several months now on an out-of-stock item. I have two previous orders with them shipped to my mailbox. When I inquired about my order recently, they said they won't ship it to my ship-to address (the same address to which prior orders were shipped) because their new "policy" is that they don't ship to UPS stores. When I asked about the motivation for the policy, I got back evasion in the form of the following:

I sincerely apologize for the inconvenience as the policy was recently set in place. Unfortunately we no longer offer to ship to addresses that lead to UPS locations. Please provide another shipping address in which we can direct your package to.
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I wrote back and said the lack of responding to my question was disconcerting and requested that all my pending orders be canceled. They didn't cancel them but instead asked for my personal phone number so they could "discuss" the situation with me.

I can maybe understand the position as a super-clumsy attempt to avoid fraud if I had no purchase history.

Does anyone know if they're under subpoena or something? This smells super fishy to me.

"80% Arms", "80 Percent Arms", "Eighty Percent Arms", "80percent", "80percentarms", or "80percentarms.com" for anyone searching on those terms.
Link Posted: 9/8/2021 12:28:48 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
I had an order pending with 80% arms for several months now on an out-of-stock item. I have two previous orders with them shipped to my receiving address. When I inquired about my order recently, they said they won't ship it to my ship-to address (the same address to which prior orders were shipped) because their new "policy" is that they don't ship to UPS stores. When I asked about the motivation for the policy, I got back evasion in the form of the following:

I sincerely apologize for the inconvenience as the policy was recently set in place. Unfortunately we no longer offer to ship to addresses that lead to UPS locations. Please provide another shipping address in which we can direct your package to.
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I wrote back and said the lack of responding to my question was disconcerting and requested that all my pending orders be canceled. They didn't cancel them but instead asked for my personal phone number so they could "discuss" the situation with me.

I can maybe understand the position as a super-clumsy attempt to avoid fraud if I had no purchase history.

Does anyone know if they're under subpoena or something? This smells super fishy to me.
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They may be cooperating with the Feds to build a list of all the people who've bought any kind of 80% products from them.  I hope not, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Biden administration would try to force them to do that.
Link Posted: 9/8/2021 12:35:42 PM EDT
[#2]
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Quoted:


They may be cooperating with the Feds to build a list of all the people who've bought any kind of 80% products from them.  I hope not, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Biden administration would try to force them to do that.
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This. Maybe the aft came in and 'determined' that they were selling 81% firearms and are strongarming them with the threat of prison time etc..
Link Posted: 9/8/2021 2:35:30 PM EDT
[#3]
Tag for outcome
Link Posted: 9/8/2021 3:05:31 PM EDT
[#4]
That would be a no from me. Failure to cancel the charge(s) = dispute the charge(s) with the bank/company.
Link Posted: 9/8/2021 3:30:29 PM EDT
[#5]
Why do you need to ship to a UPS store anyway? Just ship to your home. Tinfoil hat?
Link Posted: 9/8/2021 3:51:05 PM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:
Why do you need to ship to a UPS store anyway? Just ship to your home. Tinfoil hat?
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Maybe because of mail theft/porch pirates. Clown shoes?
Link Posted: 9/8/2021 4:06:40 PM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:
Why do you need to ship to a UPS store anyway? Just ship to your home. Tinfoil hat?
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That's off-topic and as much your business as it is 80% Arms'. The why is irrelevant. It is my preference and that is where they agreed to ship when they took my order.
Link Posted: 9/8/2021 4:19:09 PM EDT
[#8]
The most recent part of the conversation so far (triggered by my inquiry on an order that is four months pending):

Me:
Nope. Please cancel all of my outstanding orders.

You took my order and agreed to ship to my ship-to address which hasn't changed from any of my prior orders. You're now reneging on your part of the deal.

Your explanation of avoiding fraud makes no sense as applied here, since you've already dealt with me and have made shipments to the same address.

Further, I purchased [ORDER YYY] close in time to [ORDER ZZZ]. The delay between shipping the two was yours, not mine. You already know that the [PRODUCT] I received is useless without the thing you now won't ship to the address you already agreed to. I did not discover until recently that you would breach our agreement. The fault is yours for trying to change the deal after the fact.

I am tired of the back-and-forth. I no longer wish to argue with you. Because of your material breach and continued frustration and delay, I have already made arrangements to purchase replacement products from another vender.

Please immediately cancel all outstanding orders and issue a refund. Please indicate when you have done so.

Them:
Thank you for reaching back out to us.

Our products are completely legal to own as they are not firearms, and we are not collecting personal data for any law enforcement.  The policy not to ship to UPS stores and postal annexes is one to prevent fraud.  We are happy to ship to any address that is not a UPS store or Postal annex.  Please update us with a new address that is not one of those so we can ship your orders out to you.  We are unable to take returns on your other 2 orders as they are outside our 30-day return window.

Please advise me on how you would like to proceed with your order #[ZZZ]?

Thank you for your patience and for being our customer.

Me:
Again, I wish to reiterate that my understanding was that your organization respected individual autonomy and liberties, including privacy, and that the products you offered were legal to possess. I do not wish to receive any items not-yet-shipped if they are not legal to purchase or possess. Please cancel all pending orders. Please issue an RMA for my prior purchased [PRODUCT] from order [ZZZ]  I do not want it. I don't want to have anything to do with this.

Me:
I tried calling your phone number several times but only got routed to voicemail.

I think the issue is already resolved. I don't need to spend more time on this. You can either ship my order(s) to the address you have as you originally agreed to do, or you can cancel all pending orders and send me a prepaid shipping label/RMA for the unopened [PRODUCT] I previously purchased so that I may return it to you.

If you have reason to believe that my information is subject to a criminal investigation and are acting at the behest of law enforcement to gather information, please let me know immediately, and please identify the law enforcement agencies involved. If you are under subpoena to share my information for any reason, please furnish me with a copy of that subpoena immediately. Otherwise, please do not share my information with anyone for any reason whatsoever.

Them:
Please provide a good phone number and time in which we may contact you so that we can get the issue fully resolved.

If you have any other questions, please let me know.

Me:
It's not merely an "inconvenience". I also noticed that you evaded my question. You merely reiterated the policy without explaining why it was put into place. This is beyond disconcerting.

What is the motivation behind the policy change? Are you under subpoena from a government agency? Are you collecting customer data for the purposes of assisting or on behalf of the ATF or other federal law enforcement agencies? Are you or or your customers under any kind of investigation? What agencies have contacted your organization and what information have you given them? Have you hired attorneys who are assisting you in resisting such unlawful governmental overreach?

If you refuse to ship my current order to the same address as my previous orders, I'll kindly take a refund, and an RMA and pre-paid return shipping label for the [PRODUCT] I bought in [ORDER YYY] as well as a refund on that, too. My understanding was that your organization respected individual autonomy and liberties, including privacy, and that the products you offered were legal to possess. Based on your refusal to ship my current order to the address you originally agreed to, your evasiveness about your new policy, and your unwillingness to honor the terms of our original agreement, I don't want anything to do with your company or its products.

Please cancel and refund [pending] order [ZZZ]. Please issue an RMA with a prepaid return shipping label for the [PRODUCT] I bought in [ORDER YYY]. And please issue a full refund for that item upon receipt.

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Link Posted: 9/8/2021 4:27:39 PM EDT
[#9]
I wonder if the delays/reluctance to cancel-and-refund is indicative of insolvency?

EDIT: According to their own (perhaps self-serving) FAQ, the answer is, "no". This still feels creepy to me.
Link Posted: 9/8/2021 4:38:32 PM EDT
[#10]
If you paid by bank card or credit card, they can find your info if they really want to.

80% or not, as with any gun you own you bought from dealers, there is a record unless you bought from a store or gunshow for cash on the barrelhead.
Link Posted: 9/8/2021 4:41:59 PM EDT
[#11]
The fraud prevention claim smells like BS, Especially if the ship to address is same as the CC bill to address.  If they don't cancel your backorders and RMA the now useless item that is missing a component they refuse to ship I would just reverse the charges with the CC company.

Could they be collecting home address info of customers for future providing to prosecutors if they turn states evidence if a product is ruled to be a complete firearm?
Link Posted: 9/8/2021 4:42:53 PM EDT
[#12]
I ordered some stuff from them last Thursday, and it shipped today.
Link Posted: 9/8/2021 9:07:06 PM EDT
[#13]
UPS may also have issued them a notice that they can't send their merchandise to ship-to addresses. Shit happens.
Link Posted: 9/8/2021 9:22:29 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
UPS may also have issued them a notice that they can't send their merchandise to ship-to addresses. Shit happens.
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Maybe, but if that's the case, hiding it from me (or worse, inventing a lie about fraud prevention) isn't really worthy of trust, is it?
Link Posted: 9/9/2021 3:30:14 AM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:
UPS may also have issued them a notice that they can't send their merchandise to ship-to addresses. Shit happens.
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They also said "postal annexes". I think postal annexes are just privately owned businesses? I thought the whole point of these kind of businesses is to provide you with a physical address to receive things. I've never done business with this company, but there's about a million other companies to do business with. It gets my blood pressure up just reading it.

Buy a prepaid card in a grocery store and have the stuff sent to a neighbor's house that works during the day. Make sure you're there when tracking says it's going to be delivers.
Link Posted: 9/9/2021 9:52:57 AM EDT
[#16]
So far, they're working really hard not to comply with my multiple requests to cancel my order. Here's the latest:

I HAVE NOT YET RECEIVED CONFIRMATION THAT MY ORDER HAS BEEN CANCELED. PLEASE CANCEL IMMEDIATELY AND REFUND. PLEASE DO THIS NOW. I DO NOT WISH TO HEAR ABOUT “ESCALATIONS” TO “MANAGEMENT TEAMS” OR EXPLORE ANY ALTERNATIVES. I DO NOT WANT MY ORDER. I WISH TO CANCEL AND CEASE MY BUSINESS RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU IMMEDIATELY.

Let me be crystal clear: CANCEL MY ORDER AND REFUND MY MONEY IMMEDIATELY.

What part of "cancel my order" is hard to understand? This will be my fifth or sixth and final request. Cancel it immediately. I don’t want any “escalations”. I don’t want any conversations. I don’t want to deal with you. Because you have continually refused to ship the order, and because I have not been able to make progress with you, I already purchased replacements from your competitor. You had plenty of opportunities to cure or to provide assurances you would do so. You did none of that. I don’t need or want this order anymore. I will refuse any packages sent to me. I don’t trust you. Why won’t you refund my money? Are you insolvent?

Thank you for reaching back out to us.

I went ahead and escalated this to my management team to review it to see what we can do for you as, I truly wish to provide you with your order.

As soon as I hear back from them I will be sure to let you know.

Thank you for your patience and for being our customer.
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Notice how they refuse to cancel the order but instead "escalate" to a "management team".

Waiting to hear back from them.

To those advising initiating a charge-back from my CC company, that won't necessarily help. If they decide to provide my bank with a tracking number (real or not) during the course of the resulting investigation, the charge-back will fail, and I will be left out in the cold. It's best to try to get the vendor to comply if you can.
Link Posted: 9/9/2021 10:20:01 AM EDT
[#17]
No. If vendor has charged your account, but have not shipped items, you are entitled to contest the charge. If they provide a tracking number, it is trivial to find out if it's real. If real, then great, if not real, then the contest goes through and you are done.

Customers and CC companies go through this hundreds of times a day. Use it, it is for your protection. It's your money, protect it.
Link Posted: 9/9/2021 10:43:45 AM EDT
[#18]
Unless you sent cash in an envelope for your order they have a record.
I guess that it is possible that people have been using fraudulent CC or Debit card info to order kits, are they going for a premium on E-bay?
Do you have to show ID to pick up your packages and is there a record of that anywhere.
Link Posted: 9/9/2021 10:49:15 AM EDT
[#19]
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Quoted:
"We are unable to take returns on your other 2 orders as they are outside our 30-day return window."
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Da fuq? The 30-day return window can expire before they've ever shipped the product? Or is this on the other thing you ordered to use with the thing they won't ship?
Link Posted: 9/9/2021 10:58:16 AM EDT
[#20]
Who buys 80% lowers online, presumably with a credit card
Link Posted: 9/9/2021 11:49:48 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Why do you need to ship to a UPS store anyway? Just ship to your home. Tinfoil hat?
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Ok. First, this is a tech forum where comments like this aren't going to keep you around long.

Some of us live in a high-threat environment for both just stuff stolen, but also data leakage to the local hoodlums and communists.  The commies WILL damage your shit if they see you getting boxes with XYZ on it delivered in some places.

IF the seller cannot agree to the requested delivery address and didn't reject it before sale, they are on the hook to deliver or refund.

OP should just do a charge back then post about them in GD to make sure everybody knows what's going on in my opinion.
Link Posted: 9/9/2021 11:54:52 AM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:


OP should just do a charge back then post about them in GD to make sure everybody knows what's going on in my opinion.
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Apologies if this is off-topic. Can an admin move this to GD? (I don't appear to have that power.)
Link Posted: 9/9/2021 12:11:46 PM EDT
[#23]
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Quoted:

Da fuq? The 30-day return window can expire before they've ever shipped the product? Or is this on the other thing you ordered to use with the thing they won't ship?
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You need product A and product B. Neither are useful without the other. At one time, company refused to ship A and B in the same order (or there were some warnings about that, I forget). Both are advertised as completely legal to buy, sell, and possess, including at the same time. Many other vendors (including some of the the largest resellers in industry) sell products A and B as a single item.

Order YYY was placed with 80percentarms.com in good faith for product A and order ZZZ was placed in good faith with 80percentarms.com for product B. Both orders were placed close-in-time, each with the same ship-to address. My credit card was charged in full for each order at the time each was placed. Order YYY containing product A timely shipped and was received without issue. Order ZZZ was "backordered" for 4 months. Upon inquiry, 80percentarms.com refused to ship order ZZZ to the address on the order and requested my home address. I refused.

80percentarms.com has so far refused to ship order ZZZ or cancel it per my request.

80percentarms.com further refuses to issue an RMA for product A from order YYY. They claim it is beyond the 30 day return window (technically true). However, they know full well that it is useless without product B from order ZZZ, which was placed close-in-time to order YYY. They now request disclosure of additional, private information from me as a condition to shipping order ZZZ that has nothing to do with their ability to fulfill this particular order, only a policy change which so far they have explained as only vaguely related to fraud prevention.
Link Posted: 9/9/2021 12:27:43 PM EDT
[#24]
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Quoted:
No. If vendor has charged your account, but have not shipped items, you are entitled to contest the charge. If they provide a tracking number, it is trivial to find out if it's real. If real, then great, if not real, then the contest goes through and you are done.

Customers and CC companies go through this hundreds of times a day. Use it, it is for your protection. It's your money, protect it.
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But the tracking number is real, and he's already received part of his order. It's just useless without the other part of his order that they refuse to ship.  He would be denied any chargeback for goods he's already received.
Link Posted: 9/9/2021 3:41:05 PM EDT
[#25]
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That's as much your business as it is 80% Arms'. The why is irrelevant. It is my preference and that is where they agreed to ship when they took my order.
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Sorry for having a valid point. OP's is not the only one.
Link Posted: 9/9/2021 4:56:01 PM EDT
[#26]
UPDATE: 80percentarms.com finally canceled the order and promised to refund. We'll see how that pans out. I still have a useless product from the prior order, which I will likely send back to them without an RMA. UPDATE: Nope. They reneged on that. (See below.)
Link Posted: 9/10/2021 1:31:36 AM EDT
[#27]
So they sent part of your order to the UPS store, then decided not to send anything else? They actually Google earth the address to see that it's a UPS store? It sounds fishy to me.
Link Posted: 9/10/2021 9:58:48 PM EDT
[#28]
Potentially they suspect an ITAR issue with it being a non descript address such as a UPS store. The potato and his cronies would just love a headline that said "Taliban being supplied by online firearm parts stores, congress to rush in legislation to stop this". Nothing like a false morale narrative to help with an agenda.
Link Posted: 9/11/2021 11:14:48 AM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Potentially they suspect an ITAR issue with it being a non descript address such as a UPS store. The potato and his cronies would just love a headline that said "Taliban being supplied by online firearm parts stores, congress to rush in legislation to stop this". Nothing like a false morale narrative to help with an agenda.
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A UPS store address isn't a "non-descript address".  The UPS store  (per federal regulation) has on file a copy of a valid state or federal ID, which is required when signing the box rental agreement.  Every mail recipient at that box is supposed to have an ID on file--and the post office boxes fall under the (Federal) jurisdiction of the United States Postal Service.

Somebody should ask 80% for a clear explanation of what is going on, and why their policy changed.

I suspect that this is a canary-in-the-coal-mine moment, and a harbinger of things to come.

ETA:  5D Tactical was based in Massachusetts, and it was created AFTER the Mass AG banned the sale of new AR15's via Maura Healy's litigation-by-interpretation-and-Op-Ed-press-conference.  I always found it...curious...that given the nature of the product that they were marketing, and given the political climate of the state they were operating in, that they made zero effort to afford any semblance of privacy to a buyer.  They never once sold their product at local gun shows for cash/carry, nor did they have a physical retail counter where you could swing by, pay cash and scoot.  They also didn't distribute to local shops, so you could walk in and purchase there.  I found it curious that in order to purchase their product you had to be financially and physically traceable, and to get on a list in a data base.
Link Posted: 9/11/2021 11:31:18 AM EDT
[#30]
If we think the government is t tracking transactions from these websites then we're fools. The government knows you're buying 80%ers
Link Posted: 9/11/2021 11:44:24 AM EDT
[#31]
It turns out they didn't cancel my order after all. This is beyond words. Here's the latest from "Dustin":

My name is Dustin and I am the Customer Service Manager for 80 Percent Arms. I have been recently informed of the issues that you were experiencing with our support team, and I want to personally take responsibility for that and apologize. I completely understand your frustration, and it was a bit painful for me to read the interactions you had with my team, because I would feel the same way you do. We're actively changing a few policies, and anytime changes roll out, some things get lost in translation. When that happens, it falls on me for not effectively communicating with my team. Let me explain:

We've recently made a few changes in the past month to better defend against fraud, which has significantly increased this year. We've also ceased automatically shipping to UPS Boxes, simply because we use FedEx and USPS as our carriers, and delivery to UPS boxes is spotty at best. A lot of the time they end up being returned to us, and it comes out of our pocket. So, unfortunately, the representative you dealt with assumed that this was another fraud prevention method, because I failed to communicate why the UPS change was made, and so he took a hard stance in a good-natured attempt to protect us against fraud. We've since talked, because we want our representatives to feel empowered to make the right choice for the customer, and that means every situation is unique. Regardless, I take responsibility here.

So, that brings us to the present, and what to do now. I want you to get your order, and we completely understand the privacy concerns in dealing with our products, so I want to use the address you feel comfortable with. Luckily, I was able to tactically acquire your products from the warehouse, and there's a UPS Store not too far from here. So by the time you're reading this, your products will be in the mail to you. We learned an important lesson and appreciate the feedback so we can make things right.

If you ever want to talk, I'd love to speak to you on the matter so that you can personally explain everything and provide us with further information that help us improve our Customer Service team. My direct line is (949) 354-2767 EXT. 8699.

And if you're ever in Southern California, we owe you a beer. Our apologies again.
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Again, note the flat out refusal to even acknowledge my many, many requests to cancel the order and refund my money. I have to believe this is deliberate at this point. I really wonder if they're avoiding the topic because they don't have the funds to refund.
Link Posted: 9/11/2021 11:46:12 AM EDT
[#32]
My response:

PLEASE DO NOT SHIP ANYTHING. I don’t want to deal with you anymore. I don’t want your products. I don’t want any more emails, phone conversations, “escalations”, policy changes, excuses, or explanations. I don’t want a beer. I don’t want to spend any more time on this. I have already invested hours.

WHAT I WANT IS MY MONEY BACK, NOW. I struggle to think how I can be or could have been any clearer on this over the many, MANY emails I have sent you, and yet you STILL refuse to comply or even pretend to understand. If you REALLY want to take “responsibility”, as you claim, you will stop ignoring my requests and personally ensure my refund is processed as quickly as possible.

I tried calling your number and extension to explain this to you personally, but reached a recording telling me to send an email instead before being hung up on.

I have been requesting that this order be canceled since Sep 3. One of your agents has already confirmed cancelation. I expect a refund and nothing else. Because of your obstinance, I have begun dispute proceedings with my credit card issuer.

I will refuse/return all shipments from you. You keep pushing against canceling this order. I want my money back. Plain and simple. Period. End of story. Please confirm ASAP.
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Link Posted: 9/11/2021 11:50:06 AM EDT
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
That's as much your business as it is 80% Arms'. The why is irrelevant. It is my preference and that is where they agreed to ship when they took my order.
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A few years ago, I tried to ship some parts to be cerakoted via a UPS Store.  I was told by the clerk that it was their policy (apparently a UPS Store wide policy and not just a policy of that specific store), to not ship any firearm related components and that I had to go to the main UPS depot at the airport.  The clerk had asked me what was in the sealed box and I told her it was gun parts not suspecting that they had such a policy.  If I had told them car parts, they would have shipped the box without further ado.  So I wonder if the UPS Store is refusing to receive gun parts from known firearm component vendors?

This doesn't excuse the behavior of 80percentarms.com, however.  This is certainly true if they already were aware of the UPS Store policy.
Link Posted: 9/11/2021 12:26:26 PM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

A few years ago, I tried to ship some parts to be cerakoted via a UPS Store.  I was told by the clerk that it was their policy (apparently a UPS Store wide policy and not just a policy of that specific store), to not ship any firearm related components and that I had to go to the main UPS depot at the airport.  The clerk had asked me what was in the sealed box and I told her it was gun parts not suspecting that they had such a policy.  If I had told them car parts, they would have shipped the box without further ado.  So I wonder if the UPS Store is refusing to receive gun parts from known firearm component vendors?

This doesn't excuse the behavior of 80percentarms.com, however.  This is certainly true if they already were aware of the UPS Store policy.
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Mine does this too. I now tell them hiking equipment (I mean I'm not wrong).
Link Posted: 9/11/2021 1:32:05 PM EDT
[#35]
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Quoted:

Sorry for having a valid point. OP's is not the only one.
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That's as much your business as it is 80% Arms'. The why is irrelevant. It is my preference and that is where they agreed to ship when they took my order.

Sorry for having a valid point. OP's is not the only one.


The shills are really getting out of control here.
Link Posted: 9/11/2021 2:09:57 PM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

A few years ago, I tried to ship some parts to be cerakoted via a UPS Store.  I was told by the clerk that it was their policy (apparently a UPS Store wide policy and not just a policy of that specific store), to not ship any firearm related components and that I had to go to the main UPS depot at the airport.  The clerk had asked me what was in the sealed box and I told her it was gun parts not suspecting that they had such a policy.  If I had told them car parts, they would have shipped the box without further ado.  So I wonder if the UPS Store is refusing to receive gun parts from known firearm component vendors?

This doesn't excuse the behavior of 80percentarms.com, however.  This is certainly true if they already were aware of the UPS Store policy.
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Those enlightened UPS Store owners wouldn't want any icky firearm parts in their stores!
Link Posted: 9/11/2021 2:39:09 PM EDT
[#37]
I really, REALLY have to start questioning their solvency at this point. They're so adamant on their website that they're not insolvent, yet they are perplexingly dense when it comes to doing everything in their power not to even acknowledge my request to cancel my order and refund my money.

My follow-up to "Dustin":

Are you insolvent? Do you have the ability to refund my order or not? If you are not insolvent and have the ability to refund my order, then do so IMMEDIATELY. What I expect in your next response is, “I have canceled your order. Please expect a refund within [a reasonable number of] days,” or similar. ANY OTHER ACTION, STATEMENT, OR DELAY ON YOUR PART WILL BE CONSTRUED AS AN ADMISSION THAT YOUR COMPANY IS NO LONGER A VIABLE CONCERN. Please take note that I will publish your response.
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We'll see.
Link Posted: 9/11/2021 2:49:03 PM EDT
[#38]
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Quoted:
It turns out they didn't cancel my order after all. This is beyond words. Here's the latest from "Dustin":

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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
It turns out they didn't cancel my order after all. This is beyond words. Here's the latest from "Dustin":

My name is Dustin and I am the Customer Service Manager for 80 Percent Arms. I have been recently informed of the issues that you were experiencing with our support team, and I want to personally take responsibility for that and apologize. I completely understand your frustration, and it was a bit painful for me to read the interactions you had with my team, because I would feel the same way you do. We're actively changing a few policies, and anytime changes roll out, some things get lost in translation. When that happens, it falls on me for not effectively communicating with my team. Let me explain:

We've recently made a few changes in the past month to better defend against fraud, which has significantly increased this year. We've also ceased automatically shipping to UPS Boxes, simply because we use FedEx and USPS as our carriers, and delivery to UPS boxes is spotty at best. A lot of the time they end up being returned to us, and it comes out of our pocket. So, unfortunately, the representative you dealt with assumed that this was another fraud prevention method, because I failed to communicate why the UPS change was made, and so he took a hard stance in a good-natured attempt to protect us against fraud. We've since talked, because we want our representatives to feel empowered to make the right choice for the customer, and that means every situation is unique. Regardless, I take responsibility here.

So, that brings us to the present, and what to do now. I want you to get your order, and we completely understand the privacy concerns in dealing with our products, so I want to use the address you feel comfortable with. Luckily, I was able to tactically acquire your products from the warehouse, and there's a UPS Store not too far from here. So by the time you're reading this, your products will be in the mail to you. We learned an important lesson and appreciate the feedback so we can make things right.

If you ever want to talk, I'd love to speak to you on the matter so that you can personally explain everything and provide us with further information that help us improve our Customer Service team. My direct line is (949) 354-2767 EXT. 8699.

And if you're ever in Southern California, we owe you a beer. Our apologies again.


RED ALERT, CALIFORNIA LIBERAL RED FLAGS HERE
Link Posted: 9/12/2021 1:18:26 AM EDT
[#39]
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Quoted:
If we think the government is t tracking transactions from these websites then we're fools. The government knows you're buying 80%ers
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They can track anything they want. If you're not breaking the law, what do you have to hide? They're also tracking gun purchases on 4473s. It's all legal right now. If it gets made illegal then they'd need probable cause to believe that you did not comply and destroy your items.
Link Posted: 9/12/2021 1:17:07 PM EDT
[#40]
[source]

You are an idiot. They won't ship to UPS or Postal Annex due to fraud (shipping address not being the same as CC address).
Living back in the hills of TN has tightened your tin foil hat and fear of the revenuers. "I do not wish to receive any items not-yet-shipped if they are not legal to purchase or possess." is unfounded the Feds would shut them down in a heartbeat if they weren't.
Your request to refund was made outside of their clearly stated 30 day window.
Give them an address that matches your CC and get your stuff.
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Link Posted: 9/12/2021 6:02:21 PM EDT
[#41]
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[source]

You are an idiot. They won't ship to UPS or Postal Annex due to fraud (shipping address not being the same as CC address).
Living back in the hills of TN has tightened your tin foil hat and fear of the revenuers. "I do not wish to receive any items not-yet-shipped if they are not legal to purchase or possess." is unfounded the Feds would shut them down in a heartbeat if they weren't.
Your request to refund was made outside of their clearly stated 30 day window.
Give them an address that matches your CC and get your stuff.

https://c.tenor.com/2eHycBtTddQAAAAM/war-dogs-war-dogs-movie.gif

Why would you post a quote and link from another forum where somebody basically called you a wack job?

So they are shipping to your UPS store now, correct? While I think the whole thing is messed up, I think you should have called and spoke to them when they asked you to. At this point, if I was you, I'd just be glad to get my shit and be done with them and never do business with them again.
Link Posted: 9/12/2021 6:27:04 PM EDT
[#42]
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Quoted:

Why would you post a quote and link from another forum where somebody basically called you a wack job?

So they are shipping to your UPS store now, correct? While I think the whole thing is messed up, I think you should have called and spoke to them when they asked you to. At this point, if I was you, I'd just be glad to get my shit and be done with them and never do business with them again.
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For clarity, I did call them. Many, many times. It's a phone tree tarpit. I've never been able to speak to a real person.

The primary point here is that they tried to force a material change the terms of the deal after the fact. I said no thanks, I'll take my money back instead. They pushed. And pushed. And pushed. I don't want to deal with anyone who's willing to engage in such bait-and-switch shenanigans, even if they reluctantly decide to make good on their original obligations, and then only after an exhausting fight. That alone should set off alarm bells for anyone watching, especially, given that they claim to have unprecedented demand with a huge backlog of orders.
Link Posted: 9/12/2021 9:27:29 PM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

They can track anything they want. If you're not breaking the law, what do you have to hide? They're also tracking gun purchases on 4473s. It's all legal right now. If it gets made illegal then they'd need probable cause to believe that you did not comply and destroy your items.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
If we think the government is t tracking transactions from these websites then we're fools. The government knows you're buying 80%ers

They can track anything they want. If you're not breaking the law, what do you have to hide? They're also tracking gun purchases on 4473s. It's all legal right now. If it gets made illegal then they'd need probable cause to believe that you did not comply and destroy your items.


Interesting.  Where did you get the idea that "Government can track whatever it wants"?

I recall a time (and it really wasn't that long ago, really) when the very notion that the Government wanted a list of the books that you had borrowed from your local library would have been unthinkable.  But then--we understood way back then (before the PATRIOT Act) that surveillance states were inherently evil.
Link Posted: 9/12/2021 9:35:23 PM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Interesting.  Where did you get the idea that "Government can track whatever it wants"?

I recall a time (and it really wasn't that long ago, really) when the very notion that the Government wanted a list of the books that you had borrowed from your local library would have been unthinkable.  But then--we understood way back then (before the PATRIOT Act) that surveillance states were inherently evil.
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I didn't mean that they can morally, ethically or legally track anything, I meant that they can physically track anything, for whatever sick purpose. I'm sure they know what political party you are registered as, your school records, medical records. We are all being tracked for sure.
Link Posted: 9/13/2021 8:33:50 AM EDT
[#45]
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For clarity, I did call them. Many, many times. It's a phone tree tarpit. I've never been able to speak to a real person.

The primary point here is that they tried to force a material change the terms of the deal after the fact. I said no thanks, I'll take my money back instead. They pushed. And pushed. And pushed. I don't want to deal with anyone who's willing to engage in such bait-and-switch shenanigans, even if they reluctantly decide to make good on their original obligations, and then only after an exhausting fight. That alone should set off alarm bells for anyone watching, especially, given that they claim to have unprecedented demand with a huge backlog of orders.
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If I had an A product that's use was based on a B product why would me or anyone choose a path that would not result in the end goal once it could be achieved? Like running in circles spanking myself with a belt. Your post is unlikely to persuade anyone that was truly going to purchase from them anyway into changing their mind. Lots of places only ship to the billing address on a card nothing new. Terms of purchase change and it is not unusual for them to state in the terms they may change. Useless GD thread.
Link Posted: 9/13/2021 9:20:00 AM EDT
[#46]
That sucks and I'd just do a chargeback with the CC company.

As for UPS stores... Since UPS stores are private franchises subject to the owners rules, and not just UPS's, I really could see a company not wanting to ship to them. I will say that in my area, the UPS stores are owned by anti-gun pieces of shit that make you open boxes and show them the contents to make sure there's not even scope rings in there (which is very unusual for my area to be anti-gun). I have no doubt that if they could tell an 80% was shipped to them, they'd open the box and refuse to give it to the customer or something crazy. They may even just throw it in the trash.
Link Posted: 9/13/2021 9:40:16 AM EDT
[#47]
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As for UPS stores...  -snip-
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In my case, the clerk was not anti-gun but was a gun owner herself.  She was apologetic about the inconvenience, and gave me a hint that she will only ask the general question "what's in the box" in the future.  She said that it's a judgement call whether to accept the package or not based on my answer.  I like the response "hiking equipment" as per @ahrion comment above.  I will steal that.

Sorry that this is not a technical post reply, but I wanted to alert the community to the UPS Store policy.
Link Posted: 9/13/2021 9:51:59 AM EDT
[#48]
To get this back on track, I think the UPS Store thing is a red herring. Yes, the material change to the deal is what prompted my request to cancel. I think the salient point to all of this is 80percentarms.com unwillingness (or inability?) to cancel and refund under reasonable circumstances.

This is apt [source]:

And some credit card companies will EXTEND that chargeback timeline to after SHIPPING regardless of how long that is.
This is because vendors are not supposed to charge the card until shipment is expected in a very short time period (days, not weeks).
It's against most card processor agreements to collect payments when the vendors know that shipment will be multiple days/weeks/months away.
The sellers in those extended shipping situations are supposed to collect the card info and then run the card once they are ready to ship.

That's how big companies like Brownells/Midway always do it.
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I suspect what happened was that 80percentarms.com grabbed a whole bunch of orders and charged cards with no ability to ship anything at the time. If that's true, it's also quite possible they used all that money as if they had already earned it, leaving little to none left over to deal with cancelation requests. That could pay off, but it's risky, and might ultimately amount to the company going out of business before being able to fill all orders. This interaction could be a canary in that coal mine. That's what I see as the biggest takeaway.

Of course, I don't want to minimize the importance (and increasing difficulty) of trying to maintain one's privacy in today's ever-more-rapidly freedom-hating world. I suspect those who criticize me (and others) resisting surveillance and intrusion don't understand its insidious effects in this modern world and/or haven't bothered to study historical trajectories of tyranny. But that is a topic for a different thread.
Link Posted: 9/14/2021 8:49:25 AM EDT
[#49]
The rep confirmed that my refund had been issued. The rep also confirmed that they decided to ship me the available products on my order anyway, as an apology. I have updated the original post to reflect this.
Link Posted: 9/14/2021 2:35:59 PM EDT
[#50]
Nice!
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