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Posted: 10/26/2006 10:58:26 PM EDT
[#1]
Was that it? No context, just "front sights on the handguard suck"?
For match shooting, sure I agree. For a backup, I don't know. Of course, I'm not a Ranger. J |
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Posted: 10/26/2006 11:33:48 PM EDT
[#2]
I don't know about rangers, but I was in the Marine Infantry and would have loved to have the AR I have now to carry. I have a Troy mid length ff and troy sights mounted on it and it works great. Course, I'm addicted to my EoTech...
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Posted: 10/27/2006 7:54:38 AM EDT
[#3]
You are referring to this thread, Info on SDM-R rifle.
This is what Sinister wrote: 
This is what you said:
Phoebus then went on to explain why they feel this way:
Basically, a rail mounted front sight can defeat the purpose of a FF rail in certain situations. Justin |
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Posted: 10/27/2006 8:33:04 AM EDT
[#4]
City Slicker, you don't need to accuse him of lying.
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Posted: 10/27/2006 8:35:24 AM EDT
[#5]
All right, perhaps that was a bit harsh. But it irritates me when folks knowingly shove words into others' mouths. |
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Posted: 10/27/2006 8:36:11 AM EDT
[#6]
No Shit, what a fucked up thing to say. 
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Posted: 10/27/2006 8:42:20 AM EDT
[#8]
I don't think he knowingly did it. |
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Posted: 10/27/2006 9:46:04 AM EDT
[#9]
Not that it matters, for a rail mounted sight should be a backup, but I wonder what the measured deflection is on all the big name rails out there. Like, prone supported, sling holds, resting on a bi-pod, etc etc etc..
Sooooo....., Does anybody want to volunteer to do an unaffiliated, bipartisan, deflection test on them? 
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Posted: 10/27/2006 10:54:45 AM EDT
[#10]
This is a good example of Human nature to Hear, see or read something, and how it changes depending on the person retelling the story. and 3 people seeing or hearing the same thing will tell it 3 different ways...
 That's why the Internet can be a double edged sword of Misinformation.... Again the Ranger Battalions have specific mission requirements that drive their gear selection. Saying something is not the "best" for a certain application in know way means it's Sucks..... |
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Posted: 10/27/2006 11:46:24 AM EDT
[#11]
the one piece upper/handguards would be the only way to have no flex.
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Posted: 10/27/2006 12:51:26 PM EDT
[#12]
This thread went off track in a hurry. Its almost back on topic now, so lets try to keep it that way.
Point taken but no more name calling or personal attacks please. |
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Posted: 10/27/2006 12:57:08 PM EDT
[#13]
Rangers say: front irons mounted on hand guards suck
Wouldn't this be singular? |
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Posted: 10/27/2006 4:36:50 PM EDT
[#14]
Probably that is due to the fact that the only rail mounted flip front sight in the military is the KAC unit which has no way to lock in the up position and generally is not a good choice. A non pinned flip FSB on the barrel is not a good choice either.
The other option would be they tested their idea out on a non FF rail. The defelction on a FF rail is so little as to not matter. I personally dont care if the Troy flips on a rail are no that great past 200m as they will never ever get used past that distance anyway. |
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Posted: 10/27/2006 7:53:47 PM EDT
[#15]
No, I wasn't lying, nor was I trolling...I just remembered hearing that info, and decided to ask about it here, as I was considering putting a front BUIS on a ff handguard. And, if this aspect about the inadvisability of putting irons on handguards is known to some, it is definitly not common knowlege, as this pic just posted today on army.mil attests:
 Ohio Army National Guard Soldiers from the 107th Cavalry Regiment practice cordon and search tactics at Camp Buehring, Kuwait. linked due to biggosity If you look at the big pic, you can see that all these guys have mounted theor M68 CCO's on their RAS's. |
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Posted: 10/27/2006 8:11:45 PM EDT
[#16]
I brought this up a year ago and the leading authorities had no comment. Of course the big name forends ALL have deflection which moves the site independent of the barrel. Monolithic rails seem to lessen the problem dramatically. I guess if it is back up, retains zero, close enough.
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Posted: 10/27/2006 9:44:50 PM EDT
[#17]
As a matter of fact, I was going to put the BUIS (folding, front and rear) on a Monolith.
Deflection of the handguard aside, it just seems that you would get better accuracy if the front sight was on the barrel, since then the front sight would be pointing whetrever the barrel is, but I suppose this only matters if you are doing some real precision shooting with the irons. In any event, I consider them to be EBUIS (Emergency Back-Up Iron Sights), since you'll prolly never use them, given the reliability of the typical optics most of us use. |
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Posted: 10/27/2006 9:57:33 PM EDT
[#18]
Some have the carry handle on, some don't. The guys in the background, all appear to have ACOGs. If you aren't twisting on the RAS, it shouldn't move that much. Obviously bipods etc. would be a problem. But there's a school of though that the further forward the 1X optical sight is mounted, the less it obstructs the shooter's field of view. Field of view is a good thing in CQB. |
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Posted: 10/27/2006 9:58:49 PM EDT
[#19]
So how much would rail mounted front BUIS be "deflected" if used in combination with a bipod?
TS |
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Posted: 10/27/2006 11:10:31 PM EDT
[#20]
Just cause you see a pic of something done a certain way, does not make it the best way. Mounting a M68 on a RAS is not the best set up. Sure a CQB distance you can get by, but what about 100M or further. No Thanks, I leave mine on the receiver. Yeah, I know a few guys will get on here and say they did it and it worked,yadda,yadda, but its not making me change to that set up at all. Hell, I saw a pic of an E-2 with a BSA red dot sight and a Beta Cmag in iraq... Don't make it right. Plus what does this pic have to do with a front rail mounted sight not being an optimum set up fro a few units... |
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Posted: 10/28/2006 6:51:49 AM EDT
[#21]
Blue on the bolt carriers = simunition uppers?
They might have all of their stuff mounted on the RAS because it's easier and won't make a big difference with simunition. |
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Posted: 10/28/2006 7:57:16 AM EDT
[#22]
I wasn't advocating putting the Aimpoint on a rail, just pointing out that it is being done by "professionals"; while I heard long ago that doing this is a no-no, evidently not everybody else has. As far as what this has to do with irons on a handguard, it's the same thing, isn't it? Sight alignment is sight alignment regardless. But that is in the specific case of the RAS. My inquiries were directed as to wether the same applied to the more stoutly mounted ff handguards. |
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Posted: 10/28/2006 9:37:53 AM EDT
[#23]
Yes, the blue used shows they are using Sim uppers. You are correct that with simmunition, or other marking cartridges, it isn't going to matter as they aren't highly accurate at any real distance. |
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Posted: 10/28/2006 9:53:29 AM EDT
[#24]
While a sight mounted on a free float will deflect somewhat for most users I don't think it will ever be a problem. If you are planning on doing precision shooting with iron sights off a bipod then use a barrel mounted sight.
There is a reason they are called "Backup" Most using them are using an optic as a main sight, and most combat quality optics are very reliable. If it DOES go down the irons are there as backup, but it's doubtful that high precision shots will be required with the BUIS.J |
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Posted: 10/28/2006 12:26:05 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
I wasn't advocating putting the Aimpoint on a rail, just pointing out that it is being done by "professionals"; while I heard long ago that doing this is a no-no, evidently not everybody else has. remember theres a big difference between the ohio nasty girls and the ranger regiment. |
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Posted: 10/30/2006 8:21:12 AM EDT
[#26]
Some units, particularly ones without backup rear irons, will put their '68's in front of the carry handle, leaving the carry handle as a permanently fixed backup iron and allowing a co-witness. It's a cheap way of doing the cut-down carry handle style rear BUIS, I guess, but I didn't like it as much.
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Posted: 10/30/2006 9:07:52 AM EDT
[#27]
I think that this sight on the rail is an evolutionary thing, which emerged when people decided that they wanted short barrels, and long handguards.
Since the handguard is so long, and covers the gas block, and in some cases covers almost the entire barrel, there is no room left for a barrel-mounted sight. Thus, the rail mounted front sight was born. Now, if all things were equal, almost anyone would agree that the barrel mounted sight has a better chance of being more accurate than one that is mounted on the handguard because of flexing potential of the handguard, especially if a VFG is used under stress. The idea that "it doesn't have to be accurate because it's a back-up" is not of much help if you actually have to use your back-up. Of course, if you are only in CQB and short range environment, and a little sight movement isn't critical, then it may be just fine. In some cases, it certainly is a requirement to have plenty of rail space for professional operators to mount their IR stuff, and flashlights, and all manner of things. And if they have a super short barrel, there's nowhere else to put the sight. In the end, it is the user's choice what he wants to use on his gun, and that is truly the only thing that matters. And he can live with his choices. In my case, I'll take a barrel-mounted front sight every time. Back-up or primary, I want my sight on the barrel, and properly adjusted. Also, regarding the Red-dot type sights, I'd prefer to have mine mounted to the receiver rail, for the same reasons of potential flexure. YMMV |
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Posted: 10/30/2006 1:32:30 PM EDT
[#28]
3rd Battalion + 75th Rangers= Whiney bitchass crybabies
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Posted: 10/30/2006 1:57:39 PM EDT
[#29]
Why doesn't someone other than KAC produce a pinned flip-up sight/gas block?
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Posted: 10/30/2006 2:02:36 PM EDT
[#30]
PRI... |
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Posted: 10/30/2006 2:05:41 PM EDT
[#31]
Ayeguy, Did you happen to catch which make/model of freefloaters they were bitching about ? Enquiring minds want to know. :-) ML |
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Posted: 10/30/2006 3:38:02 PM EDT
[#32]
Not pinned I believe, and neither are the YHM or GG&G offerings... I think LaRue Tactical is capable of designing an excellent gas block/folding front sight combo and I've been screaming for one for a few days now, but to no avail. Mark, any chance here? At present, the KAC unit is the only durable solution offered, but those are nowhere to be found; one sold on the EE a few weeks ago for $500, so the demand is definitely there. Justin |
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Posted: 10/30/2006 3:49:42 PM EDT
[#33]
Weren't yours, Mark -- at the AMU we put on lots of Larues and Daniels for the boys at 3rd Battalion and Regiment. They like them a lot.
The guy who said front sights on the rail suck is the Sniper Platoon Sergeant for the 3rd Ranger Battalion, a Distinguished Rifleman with the Bronze Star with V device, and the 2005 Army Rifle Champion. He's won BUNCHES of sniper competitions. I think he knows what he's talking about. The rifle he was talking about is the Mark 12 SPR with Knights' rail and front sight. His battle experience with about 3 dozen rifles is the muzzle may be pointing one way, which may not be the same place the front sight is pointing (on the rail). |
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Posted: 10/30/2006 5:20:18 PM EDT
[#34]
Sinister, Got it. "Ayeguy" heard several folks were complaining... What were the Sargeant's theories on why the muzzles and sights weren't jiving ? If the handguards don't point reasonably parallel with the barrel, then there is the issue of not having enough windage travel. Could that of been it ? More, I need more. :-) Mark |
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Posted: 10/30/2006 6:36:26 PM EDT
[#35]
OK, a guy with those skills and that background is going to have a wholly different set of standards for what constitutes a good versus bad front sight arrangement, especially on a long-range rig like a Mark 12 than somebody of lesser skills running a carbine length weapons system. Say that guy could hold and hit a man-size target with irons at 600 yards when his front sight is on the barrel, and only 400 yards with a FF mounted front sight. Well, of course its going to suck by comparison in his opinion.
My relatively untalented ass has to work hard to put that round on the 300 yard E-type sillhouette and knock it down because our Big Army barrels are more worn out, our triggers are stiff Colt stock ones, and the targets have holes in them already. Also, I'm not an Army championship rifle shot. Never will be. I don't have that last ten percent of talent that seperates Expert Rifle badge wearers from All-Army competition winners. So what constitutes a less desirable rig for the gifted shooter might still work well for those of us with more pedestrian requirements. |
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Posted: 10/30/2006 6:58:02 PM EDT
[#36]
The original version of the GG&G front sight is pinned on, I believe. That's why you have to return your bbl to GG&G for install. |
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Posted: 10/31/2006 4:52:09 AM EDT
[#37]
That is correct. GG&G has two versions. The one you typically see is set screwed on but they also have a pinned on version that you have to send you barrel to them for installation. (Cost ~ $200 with installation). That's the only problem with pinned on versions, proper installation is not something that just any old hillbilly with a drill can do correctly. Hell look how much problems BM has had installing FSB that are not canted! That said, I personally do not trust a gas block\flip up sight combos that is not pinned on. Other types may be fine for range toys but if I was going into harms way, pinned on is the only way I would accept it. I can deal with set screwed lo-pro gas blocks (non-BUIS versions) assuming you dimple the barrel where the setscrews will tighten down and locktite the setscrews and cover\protect the gas block with a one-piece rail. |
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Posted: 10/31/2006 5:43:51 AM EDT
[#38]
That wouldn't happen to be Sgt Wear would it? |
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Posted: 10/31/2006 5:08:08 PM EDT
[#39]
I guess I will have to take exception to this comment. God bless em. All of them. Sinister ... gimme a call when you got a minute 409-983-8643 PD C.I.D. BK AmericanSnipers.org |
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