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Posted: 9/20/2004 6:09:20 AM EST
Don't let anyone ever tell you that AKs are more reliable then the AR! Been training some Iraqi Security on our compound lately and I've had numerous failures to feed, failures to fire (more likely ammo), and malfuctions. This morning had one round get stuck in the chamber and when virgrilously stomping bolt to rear shear the extractor rim off the case still stuck inside chamber. 30 minute job to clear than one. One bolt/carrier going off track at rear of reciever during firing. Poor ergonamics during CQB work. Had to the fact that these are new guns from the former WARSAW pact.

Rant off...

CD
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:58:57 AM EST
how do those rifles look? maybe a quality control issue from the factories? nothing is 100% reliable - even ak-47's. they are romanian i believe.
mp
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:12:55 AM EST
heh, thanks for the post
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:15:03 AM EST
Impossible, everyone knows that AK 47's can not be made to malfunction no matter how poorly they are assembled or how badly they are abused.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:17:40 AM EST
Twice I've been around AK's at the range and twice I've seen feeding problems with them.

I was going to get one but have since decided againts it.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:45:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 7:45:44 AM EST by Sharpshot]
I bumped 2 mags (60 rds) through my AK at the range yesterday and had zero feeding problems/jams. I think we should also understand that there is no rifle in the world that functions perfectly everytime, or at least I haven't seen one yet.

add: was using cheap Wolf ammo too
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:52:38 AM EST
I'm one of the few that think both the AR-15/M-16 and AK series of weapons each have their places. I abuse the shit out of my AK and it has never given me a problem.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:06:17 AM EST
Combat_Diver,


Would you mind posting this in the AK-47 section of this board in the AK Dicussion.....It would be greatly appriciated .....And correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that the Iraqi's are using the Bulgarian AKs.


Take care and stay safe


Thank you for your service!!!


Semper Fi
Jeff
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:08:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 8:09:30 AM EST by tooly]
OK.....I'll give mine away!!!
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:18:59 AM EST
You have to love AKM produced copies that sell for $50 on the open market.

There used to be a time when Russia was handing there produced rifles out like candy, but those days are gone. Now drunken monkeys using two stones in second and third world countries produce these copies, and are the reason for the parts/clones being less than ideal.

If you can get your hands on a Russian produced AK or AKM, there is a world of difference. Comparing one of theses copies to a real Russian produced rifle is like comparing your Colt M-4 to something that ASA threw on the civilian market.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:42:21 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:56:53 AM EST
Some AK board whores are already here........I wonder what kind they were??? Bulgarian, Romanian and Russian I have shot ran like tops even the Chinese ran thousands with no problem..I havent shot the drunken monkey types hee hee but they say the cottage Ind guns are just hobbled together...Wonder what kind of ammo he's getting over there???


I've never had a problem with a M4 or AR either..... (Now thats just luck I guess)
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:07:07 AM EST
That is impossible, the AK is the "Tiger of the desert"
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:20:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By MP906:
I concur. Both my Romanian AKs have had feed problems and light-strikes. My M4 has yet to jam once.



Interesting. Even the monkies at CAI that assembled my Romanian SAR-1 managed to put together a rock solid murderous terrorist assault weapon bullet hose.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:39:23 AM EST
I've shot thousands of rounds through my 4 AKs and haven't had any jams.

Funny that those beat-up third wold Iraqi AKs don't work as well as your well-oiled exactingly machined M4.

I put a little over 600 rounds through my krebs AK-74 a little while ago in the course of a couple hours
with no stoppages of any kind.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 1:09:41 PM EST
I am new to AKs but I have put over 1000 rounds through my Mak90 in the last month with no problems, FWIW.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 2:12:39 PM EST
Ever see that program on the history channel about the development of the AK? They had this one test (more like torture) chamber filled with dust... you couldn't even see the person in there with all this swirling dust. The AK was the ONLY gun to fire full auto in this massive simulated dust storm without jamming. It was quite an eye opener.

My own AK (a Bulgarian SLR95) has never had one jam, FTF, or FTE... EVER! Of course, the thing is so frickin' inaccurate I really don't enjoy shooting it either. "Only accurate guns are interesting."
Now if I had an AK full auto... but I digress.

AKs have to be reliable... they're designed to use Wolf ammo!!!

Scot
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 2:20:17 PM EST
Even though I am an AR15 .223/.308 guy I'll admit that I have an ak. Mine is the pre-ban(hah) Norinco NHM-91 100% condition. RPK light machine gun version. Never had problems with it, even with the 75rnd drum magazines. Its not an AR, and its not in .308, but I still like it very much, and would bet my 1* on its function. Ok. I'm done now. :)
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 2:25:00 PM EST
I saw one jam at the MODCC shoot on Saturday.
Doesn't mean I'm getting rid of mine.

Wouldn't use it for any tactical use, but it sure is fun to abuse!
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 4:43:46 PM EST
My Chi-Com AK has around 3k round thru it WITHOUT a major cleaning.. And it has NEVER jammed... I spray the inards with WD-40 ever 3K rounds or so and that has been it..

Do that with a AR.. I dare you!!!

PS I also love AR-15s... not bashing them...
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 4:48:34 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 4:50:48 PM EST
Must have been HESSE's.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 5:08:38 PM EST
When soldiers need to cross a river, they are usually trained to hold the rifle up and above the water line to avoid getting the weapoon wet, muddy or rusty. Russians trained their men to do the same with the AK. Just because it is an AK doesn't mean you are cool if you fill it sand and shoot it. Every weapon can fail, and i have seen plenty of AK clones fail at the range.

I've never seen a true, Russian made, 100% mil spec, AK. Perhaps those are more reliable, but I doubt it. Getting grit into places where the rifle needs to lock up will jam anything. I am sure the AK can take more abuse than the AR. Just look at how tight the AR is. But there is more to a good rifle than what types of insane abuse it can take. Chances are, in even an extreme battle, you are not going to get entire handfuls of mud or sand in you action.


This torture test crap is crap in my opinion. Let's be practical guys. Who here intentionally fills their rifles action with sand, grit, mud, water ...?? Anyone? Who here, even in an extreme situation, a SHTF situation will be so negligent with their rifle to allow sand, grit, mud, water and other things into the action of their rifle? Russians trained their men to clean and maintain their weapon after EVERY use. You shoot it, you clean it. Just like every modern military in the world, weapon maintenance is taught. Just because the AK gained a reputation as a reliable weapon in the hands of peasants who don't even have cleaing kits, doesn't mean that is the whole story. Exactly HOW can you quanitfy the reliability rates of abused AK's in combat in use by peasants? How many died having a jam? We will never know. But in our high tech military, every tiny hiccup is reported to no end. We as a nation, as a people and our military is obsessed with weapon performance and pay great attention to function.


AR is fine for me. If I happen to get it filty - CLEAN IT omg! I should somehow trade the accuracy, ease of use, ergonomics all of which improve my over all accuracy and hit probability for a rifle that will fire when I pull the trigger in that one nearly impossible or rare situatio when I pop out of a sand pit or mudhole like Rambo.....gimme a break.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:26:08 PM EST
These are new Bulgarian AKs with fixed wooden stocks. I've been around AKs for a look time. Used to own a Chinese AK semi bought back in 84, 100% reilable. Used to have an issue Romanian AK folder for years down in the arms room with no problems and have thaught how to use the AK to Eygptians, Eithopians, and some other thrid world countries. But this is the worst!

First Gulf War picked up some prisoners the day before the airwar started (they crossed into SA at our border post). AKs might have worked (remember one Polish) however the mags were so full of sand that we had a hard time manually unloading the mags (sand is very fine on the Kuwaiti/Saudi border).

CD
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 10:43:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dont-Tread-On-Me:
When soldiers need to cross a river, they are usually trained to hold the rifle up and above the water line to avoid getting the weapoon wet, muddy or rusty. Russians trained their men to do the same with the AK. Just because it is an AK doesn't mean you are cool if you fill it sand and shoot it. Every weapon can fail, and i have seen plenty of AK clones fail at the range.

I've never seen a true, Russian made, 100% mil spec, AK. Perhaps those are more reliable, but I doubt it. Getting grit into places where the rifle needs to lock up will jam anything. I am sure the AK can take more abuse than the AR. Just look at how tight the AR is. But there is more to a good rifle than what types of insane abuse it can take. Chances are, in even an extreme battle, you are not going to get entire handfuls of mud or sand in you action.


This torture test crap is crap in my opinion. Let's be practical guys. Who here intentionally fills their rifles action with sand, grit, mud, water ...?? Anyone? Who here, even in an extreme situation, a SHTF situation will be so negligent with their rifle to allow sand, grit, mud, water and other things into the action of their rifle? Russians trained their men to clean and maintain their weapon after EVERY use. You shoot it, you clean it. Just like every modern military in the world, weapon maintenance is taught. Just because the AK gained a reputation as a reliable weapon in the hands of peasants who don't even have cleaing kits, doesn't mean that is the whole story. Exactly HOW can you quanitfy the reliability rates of abused AK's in combat in use by peasants? How many died having a jam? We will never know. But in our high tech military, every tiny hiccup is reported to no end. We as a nation, as a people and our military is obsessed with weapon performance and pay great attention to function.


AR is fine for me. If I happen to get it filty - CLEAN IT omg! I should somehow trade the accuracy, ease of use, ergonomics all of which improve my over all accuracy and hit probability for a rifle that will fire when I pull the trigger in that one nearly impossible or rare situatio when I pop out of a sand pit or mudhole like Rambo.....gimme a break.



Might be kind of difficult to give any gun a thorough cleaning in the middle of a prolonged gunfight with hostiles all aorund you.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 10:54:32 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 10:56:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:
Might be kind of difficult to give any gun a thorough cleaning in the middle of a prolonged gunfight with hostiles all aorund you.



most fire fights are quick....you either win, lose, or retreat
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 11:51:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By SMPrider112:

Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:
Might be kind of difficult to give any gun a thorough cleaning in the middle of a prolonged gunfight with hostiles all aorund you.



most fire fights are quick....you either win, lose, or retreat



I'm not going to argue with that. My statement was for when it really matters, ala Mogadishu.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 12:03:28 AM EST
I'll bet you a dollar you were shooting brass cased iraqi ammo.

The problem with Iraqi AK's is Iraqi ammo. There are romanian, east german, hungarian, chinese and yugo (and iraqi made copies of yugo) AK's in large quantities in Iraq. The quality is the same or better than the ones here (no shitty us made parts in theirs).

Find some yugo ammo, or chinese or russian, and your guns will work right.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 12:41:05 AM EST
I guess mileage may vary. I have a SAR which I have burned 4 cases of Wolf through and have never (NEVER) cleaned it. I have not had one single (ONE SINGLE) failure. Amazes me.

I still love my black rifle, though.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 2:16:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By eodinert:
I'll bet you a dollar you were shooting brass cased iraqi ammo.

The problem with Iraqi AK's is Iraqi ammo. There are romanian, east german, hungarian, chinese and yugo (and iraqi made copies of yugo) AK's in large quantities in Iraq. The quality is the same or better than the ones here (no shitty us made parts in theirs).

Find some yugo ammo, or chinese or russian, and your guns will work right.



My guess is that this is the culprit. I have seen AKs in other third world countries that would make a dog puke but ran fine so long as the rifle and mags were halfway clean. (and I think Combat_Diver would certainly know if cleanliness was the issue!) I have not, however, had experience with the fine desert sand over there. Can you get your hands on some different ammo to try?
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 2:59:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sukebe:
Impossible, everyone knows that AK 47's can not be made to malfunction no matter how poorly they are assembled or how badly they are abused.



Link Posted: 9/21/2004 3:07:11 AM EST
Iraqi AKs are some of the worst I've ever seen. Weld pools, even incorrect riveting, cock-eyed levelling on rails... It's a wonder some even function.

Not to mention, their magazines are probably as old as hell... Get a horrible gun using weak magazines and you should expect it to jam.

This would be like if I dug up a 1967 M16 of the 'Nam era and than got out mags that rattle like a bag of marbles and try to fire it - of course I would expect failures.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 11:37:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By coltshorty14:
My Chi-Com AK has around 3k round thru it WITHOUT a major cleaning.. And it has NEVER jammed... I spray the inards with WD-40 ever 3K rounds or so and that has been it..

Do that with a AR.. I dare you!!!

PS I also love AR-15s... not bashing them...



It's been done by several members on this board...

The 'record' I believe is around 6,000 rounds thru an A2 AR without a jam or a cleaning...
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 12:05:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

The 'record' I believe is around 6,000 rounds thru an A2 AR without a jam or a cleaning...



Are you sure?
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 12:13:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sturmwehr:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

The 'record' I believe is around 6,000 rounds thru an A2 AR without a jam or a cleaning...



Are you sure?





+1 I very seriously doubt it
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 12:18:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 12:19:40 PM EST by Sturmwehr]

Originally Posted By repub18:

Originally Posted By Sturmwehr:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

The 'record' I believe is around 6,000 rounds thru an A2 AR without a jam or a cleaning...



Are you sure?





+1 I very seriously doubt it



Yeah, I'm feeling the same way.

I'm sorry, but 6K rounds of non-continuous fire would be an amazing feat for any firearm... AR or AK...

It just seems, well, a bit out there... You know, like the stories fishermen tell, "It was 542lbs and 30 feet long!"

I know the new M60E4 sustained a continuous non-stop 102,000 torture test... But that was CONTINUOUS. If you let a rifle sit without cleaning, it will foul. Carbon build-up will make ANY rifle fail.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 12:20:51 PM EST
4000+ ROUNDS in less than 2 years out of my SAR1 no jams or misfires yet. It is ROMANIAN same factory your rifles Iraqi rifles are from that is why SAR's are not imported anymore that factory got the contract for Iraq.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 12:23:30 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 12:24:06 PM EST
It is ROMANIAN same factory your rifles Iraqi rifles are from

Major news flash: Romanian rifles are made in *GASP!* ROMANIA.


that is why SAR's are not imported anymore that factory got the contract for Iraq.


Wrong
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 12:27:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 12:32:36 PM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By Sturmwehr:
It is ROMANIAN same factory your rifles Iraqi rifles are from

Major news flash: Romanian rifles are made in *GASP!* ROMANIA.


that is why SAR's are not imported anymore that factory got the contract for Iraq.


Wrong



That thread is incorrect...

The ATF did not 'raid' CAI... A shipment of AKs was siezed in Italy, the Italians apparently didn't realize that the rifles were legal here... But htis was after the SARs went bye-bye...

Basically, CAI & the Romanians had a falling-out over price...

And the AKs being issued to the Iraqi Govt forces are indeed made in ROMANIA...
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 12:28:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sturmwehr:

Originally Posted By repub18:

Originally Posted By Sturmwehr:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

The 'record' I believe is around 6,000 rounds thru an A2 AR without a jam or a cleaning...



Are you sure?





+1 I very seriously doubt it



Yeah, I'm feeling the same way.

I'm sorry, but 6K rounds of non-continuous fire would be an amazing feat for any firearm... AR or AK...

It just seems, well, a bit out there... You know, like the stories fishermen tell, "It was 542lbs and 30 feet long!"

I know the new M60E4 sustained a continuous non-stop 102,000 torture test... But that was CONTINUOUS. If you let a rifle sit without cleaning, it will foul. Carbon build-up will make ANY rifle fail.



I believe CampyBob & the various other posters who have had their guns get to the 5,000-6,000 round range without cleaning...

The fact is that AR-system-unreliability is a myth from the early days of Vietnam...
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 12:45:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 12:47:45 PM EST by 89grand]
I've got 2 AK's, a Chinese Mak90 and Egyptian Maadi. No failures of any kind ever with either one and I've shot thousands of rounds between the 2. Mine are extemely reliable. If they were anymore reliable they'd read my mind and shoot by themselves. I'm getting ready to build my first AR and I have no expectations that it'll be as reliable as either one of my AK's. I love AR's but they aren't typically near as reliable as an AK, everybody knows that.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 12:48:26 PM EST
My experiences with AR/AK rifles
Personal rifles,
Saiga AK in .223, never had a jam, fairly accurate, approx. 1000 rds so far with nothing more than wiping out the barrel
SAR2 in 5.45, fairly accurate, never had a jam, approx. 600rds so far with nothing more than wiping out the barrel.
Model 1 commando clone upper on LAR lower. Just got this one, maybe 100rds so far. runs like a champ.
Eagle Arms (armalite) maybe a few thousand rds, very accurate, had quite a few jam at first but now runs great.

Years ago I was a range NCO at Ft. Bragg, we had many many FTFs, FTEs, etc. However we always attributed this to the fact the rifles used were "loaners" (cadets, we had to run the fricken range for ROTC cadets) and very well worn. Usually just swapping out the bolt would fix things.
I never have had any experience with AKs in the field.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 12:56:14 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 1:04:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By SGB:
Only malfunctions I've ever had with either system is ammo related.



Mags here.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 1:37:27 PM EST
my maadi looks like hell, is pop can accurate at 50 yards, and starts to slam-fire at about 1000 rounds without cleaning. so then i clean it. i have fired ~2X,XXX??? rounds through it. the only time i had mechanical trouble was before i replaced the hammer and disconnector. (they wore out and the hammer would ride the bolt carrier forward). i am doubting that all aks are this reliable, most probably are, i am sure some are POS.

p.s. i bought this gun used. so i have no idea how many total rounds are through it.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 2:21:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 2:22:39 PM EST by mkgunz]
I've got a MAADI that I've had for a few years and have shot mostly Wolf with. When I was home on leave one time I shot it right before I flew back to CA. I never gave it a good cleaning and was giving the gas tube a quick swab after not cleaning it after the last time I shot 7 months before. I some how "lost" the patch of t-shirt in the tube because I was in ahurry to catch my flight. The next time I came home on leave I shot a few hundred rounds thru it. I decided to give a good cleaning for the first time in almost 2 years. Thats when I found the patch in the tube burned up. Not saying I would do the torture test but it's nice to know it's reliable. I've had no jams or malfunctions.

Kalshnakov(SP?) was on the History channel a few months ago and he said he designed the rifle to be so reliable that you could pour a handful of sand in the action and fire it.

If anyone has read Hackworth's articles he talked aobut taking charge of a unit in Vietnam and moving the base because of enemy mines. When they where digging they found a skeleton with a AK-47. He picked it up and fired off the entire mag in one burst, sounds pretty reliable to me.

I've got my M4 and won't give it up for nothing, but I won't give up my AK either.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 2:51:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 2:55:12 PM EST by Sturmwehr]

That thread is incorrect...

The ATF did not 'raid' CAI... A shipment of AKs was siezed in Italy, the Italians apparently didn't realize that the rifles were legal here... But htis was after the SARs went bye-bye...


There was also a notice from CAI of the ATF having beef over the weapons, something happened the day after Gore accepted the nomination for the Democratic party back in 2000.


Basically, CAI & the Romanians had a falling-out over price...


...And it became too expensive and CAI became the target of beaucracy and investigation.


And the AKs being issued to the Iraqi Govt forces are indeed made in ROMANIA...


There was only a contract made for rifles with Romarm, of 44,000 units I believe.


Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
iraq manufactures akm's patterend after the yugoslavian akm, akms, m90, etc. the iraqi ak's are referred to as tabuks.

the iraqis were also supplied by russia.

they seem to have procured large quantities of chinese akm's an d they bought a large amout of kalashnikovs from the romanian in the 1994 (iir the year correctly).

you will also find large quantities of east german akm and akms rifles in country as well as quantities of the mpik72 .22 rimfire training rifle.

as is to be expected, there are plemty of yugoslavian akm and akms kalashnikovs in iraq.

pakistan has its' own arm manufacturing...er...industry. the dirt floor, mud hut ...er...gunsmiths can, and do, manufacture all manor of kalashnikov rifles.

the tasliban fought mainly with akm and akms arms aquired as russian captures, although numbers of ak74's were also aquired and seen in pictuures. one only has to look to osama and al zawahari to see the leaderships' appreciation for the ak74.




If you want to debate that, tell CAMPYBOB he's wrong - not me. Iraq is still manufacturing AKs. You can't arm an army with only 44,000 firearms, which is what ROMARM is providing. Also, you have the large pool of Tabuks available - which are being fielded.

EDIT:

My bad, it was for 34,000 rifles.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 2:56:27 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 2:58:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 2:59:25 PM EST by Sturmwehr]

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

I believe CampyBob & the various other posters who have had their guns get to the 5,000-6,000 round range without cleaning...

The fact is that AR-system-unreliability is a myth from the early days of Vietnam...



In how long of a time frame? Are we talking hours? A weekend? A few months?

If you said a few months, I wouldn't really tend to believe you. A weekend? Hell, yeah, definately possible. A month? Perhaps.


However, carbon fouling will stop any rifle from function. I don't give a shit what firearm it is, if you fire a few thousand rounds continuously and let it set, allowing the carbon build-up to harden... you're rifle will almost certainly fail. I don't care if "Kalashnikov" or "AR-15" is on the receiver. I will take bets that the firearm will fail.

ANY firearm.
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